libera/#devuan/ Wednesday, 2018-05-30

ServiceRobothello there tiny peeps00:58
ServiceRobotso I tried out the latest ascii iso and I'm wondering if I can remove sysvinit now that openrc is an option01:00
ServiceRobotI selected openrc as the init I wanted to use but still had sysvinit when the installation finished01:00
gnarfacei don't know the procedure but people have succeeded at this.  maybe it's enough to just remove sysvinit once openrc is set up.  there might be an extra step.01:02
ServiceRobotI tried removing sysvinit and the result was an unbootable system. I assume it's because it's tied to the init binary01:03
gnarfacehad you finished installing openrc?  maybe you have to install it AFTER removing sysvinit.  i'm just not sure.01:03
ServiceRobotif this is the case it should be seperated so more init systems can be added in the future01:04
ServiceRobotit does boot with openrc, but I think it's on top of sysvinit01:04
ServiceRobotthe details in the recent announcement confuse me about this01:04
gnarfacehmmm.  well i don't have any suggestions other than to hang around here until you cross paths with someone else who is using openrc.01:04
gnarfaceyou're not the first, i know that for sure.01:04
golinuxServiceRobot: I think that openrc uses some sysvinit scripts so you either need to rely on those or replace them with other options to fulfill those functions.01:28
Juestomost of devuan is sysvinit01:28
golinuxYou might want to look at this thread https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128 and also here http://troubleshooters.com/linux/init/01:28
ServiceRobotya, that's annoying. I was hoping devuan would start to allow complete replacements. I'm a bit of a perfectionst when it comes to that01:29
Juestoopenrc version in devuan lacks important things imo01:29
golinuxJuesto: openrc is an option that quite a few are using.01:29
Juestoopenrc has somewhat replaced sysvinit in a few versions later01:29
Juestodevuan's 0.2301:29
Juesto0.24 introduced agetty orcinitscript01:30
Juestoand 0.25 replaces sysvinit01:30
ServiceRobotah01:30
ServiceRobotwait, so the goal is to completely replace openrc, or make it an option? it seems there should be a main init package from which other init systems can work with01:31
golinuxThere have been discussions about openrc on the mailist, irc and the forum01:31
ServiceRobotright, I've been keeping track of the forum a bit01:31
golinuxDevuan is about choice01:31
ServiceRobotthat's good to know. "init freedom" is the main slogan on one of your paegs01:32
ServiceRobot*pages01:32
golinuxIndeed.  In the beginning we were hoping to also add systemd to the options but then it became apparent that wouldn't be possible.01:33
golinuxbrb01:33
Juestoso just fueling the anti systemd stuff after evaluation01:34
ServiceRobot_really? you were gonna make systemd an option? at that point just use debian :L02:18
djphthat wasn't the point - *init freedom* was02:20
ServiceRobot_yes, and systemd conflicts with that ideology02:20
djphand the *freedom* to usy systemd falls solidly into that02:20
ServiceRobot_well either way you guys seem to be making good progress. I just tested everything down stairs and it worked fine. live desktop installer doesn't work for me though02:21
Juestoeh02:23
gnarfaceServiceRobot_: the point is that early on, detractors said it would be hypocritical to make a distro based on init freedom then exclude the most popular new init system.  so, man hours were spent evaluating the effort level, at which point it was discovered conclusively that systemd and several things it has tied into (gnome, for example) are already "too far gone" to be redeemed without a costly rewrite that the project02:23
gnarfacejust doesn't have resources to handle internally.02:23
ServiceRobot_that's understandable. everything you guys do is provided with no charge. how long do you think it will be before I can fully removed sysvinit and use a different init though?02:24
gnarfacei think during this time, the maintainers of systemd also through action made it obvious they would continue to obstruct portability at a core level of their design02:24
gnarfacei think other than systemd, you can use any init system you want right now02:25
ServiceRobot_sysvinit is default in devuan. minor support for openrc it seems. no support for runit, which I actually like for how simple it is02:25
gnarfaceif what you're asking is how long until it will be an option "out of the box?" ... that i don't know.  as they say in #debian; sooner if you help!02:25
ServiceRobot_how do you think I could help speed up development?02:26
gnarfacei don't actually speak for the project in any official capacity, but there is a path you can follow to help02:27
gnarfacethere is a mailing list02:27
gnarfacehttps://devuan.org/os/partners/ways-to-help there is also this, if you're not a coder02:27
gnarfacethere is also i think #devuan-dev02:29
ServiceRobot_the thing is how will this help with allowing more init systems? flexibility like removing an entire init and replacing it?02:29
djphthats the idea02:29
Juestoit's complicated02:31
ServiceRobot_I can imagine02:32
ServiceRobot_there's not really a standard for multiple inits on 1 distro it seems02:32
JuestoHave a kernel capable of multiple bosses02:32
Juestogood luck02:32
Juestoupstart was on top of sysv02:33
Juestothere you go02:33
ServiceRobot_well the distro I'm currently using figured it out. I can run runit or openrc. I wonder if it can be implemented similarly here02:33
Juestowell it's similar to openrc to some extent02:33
Juestowhich distro02:33
Juestoopenrc is gentoo02:33
ServiceRobot_Artix Linux02:33
ServiceRobot_yes, but gentoo doesn't really seem like the server type of distro. I have to compile everything myself...03:05
Juestoyeah... there's some distros that help in that03:10
Juestofuntoo03:10
Juestothere's many distros that resolve such difficulty03:12
Juestoforks*03:12
ServiceRobot_I thought funtoo was just an experimental distro? not really meant for production?03:12
gnarfaceit's really difficult to formulate a helpful response to that without sounding snarky03:14
ServiceRobot_whatever is most informative03:15
gnarfaceif you ask Microsoft, they'll tell you that Linux and Linux distros in their entirety are experimental and not meant for production.  of course they have an alternative ready.03:15
gnarfacethe truth is that it's as much about the sysadmin as the distro03:16
ServiceRobot_maybe experimental isn't the right word. I mean not meant for servers03:16
gnarfaceoh, well personally (as a professional) i'd advise against any source-based distro for servers that rely on 3rd party or commercial software03:17
ServiceRobot_what do you mean by source-based?03:17
gnarfacegentoo, funtoo, arch, slackware03:17
ServiceRobot_right, which is why I looked at this website for options: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Linux_distributions_without_systemd03:18
gnarfacebut the thing is, there's also types of things source-based distros do better, and those things aren't all mutually exclusive with "being a server"03:18
ServiceRobot_I'm just not sure what to go with. What I'm looking for is something with openrc that is fixed release and has enough packages for a LEMP/LAMP setup03:19
gnarfacewell i'd recommend Devuan for that, even if you weren't already here03:19
ServiceRobot_ya, there are sides to rolling or fixed release. I've tried both. rolling is great for me as a desktop user03:19
ServiceRobot_I tried Devuan. not a fan of sysvinit, but I suppose if it's the only and best choice, I have to live with it03:20
gnarfacewhatever superficial issues you're having with openrc, i suspect you're putting way too much weight on them as a factor for this decision.  openrc is popular enough they'll get fixed.03:20
gnarfacealso, i can help you with most common struggles new users have with sysvinit03:20
gnarfaceit's really not THAT complicated03:21
gnarfaceyou can still probably get accurate info about it's behavior from the debian wiki entries for wheezy03:21
gnarface(you might want to make copies of the LSB headers notes before they get removed though)03:21
ServiceRobot_it's just that the init systems I've messed with thus far have been openrc, runit, and systemd (which gives more problems than other inits I'll bite)03:23
ServiceRobot_devuan doesn't have complete support for it yet. it seems they're working towards it, and that's good enough for me. I can wait03:23
gnarfacefor a LAMP setup, the debian packages for PHP are far superior to most other distros "one giant package that you have to rebuild in it's entirety for the tiniest change" approach03:25
ServiceRobot_ya, one small issue. there's a nginx module that doesn't seem to be available... libnginx-rtmp :L03:26
ServiceRobot_very small issue though03:26
gnarfaceof course you'll have to resist the urge to start downloading and building source instead of searching the package repo for the right php module package, but once you get over that it gets easy03:26
ServiceRobot_and not the main reason why I'm waiting03:26
gnarfacehmm, i can't speak for nginx but whenever you are missing a package or need a newer version of something, check backports03:27
ServiceRobot_it's a module03:27
ServiceRobot_sort of an addon if you will. it can be built directly into nginx though I think03:28
gnarfacepackages.debian.org says it's present in stretch-backports.  that means it is also present in ascii-backports03:29
gnarfacein Debian, the package is actually named "libnginx-mod-rtmp" ... mabye that'll help you search for it better03:29
DocScrutinizer05noob question: could you give me a ultraterse howto for installing devuan on a server? Upload CD image to hoster?03:29
ServiceRobot_I searched for libnginx-mod-rtmp. couldn't find it03:30
ServiceRobot_on devuan I mean03:30
ServiceRobot_maybe it hasn't been added yet03:30
gnarfaceServiceRobot_: that's because it's not in the main repos.  it's in backports see here: https://backports.debian.org/03:30
ServiceRobot_what about for devuan?03:30
gnarfaceServiceRobot_: all that's different is the url03:31
ServiceRobot_ah, I see. I'm not exactly an expert on how debian works03:31
DocScrutinizer05!amprolla03:31
infobotnextime gave an excellent explanation how amprolla works, at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/2016-05-07/?msg=65646427&page=4, or https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/amprolla03:31
gnarfaceDocScrutinizer05: pick premade debian image, change sources.list to devuan repos and upgrade :)03:33
DocScrutinizer05boils down to: all that's in debian is also in devuan, unless it got removed/replaced03:33
DocScrutinizer05gnarface: ta!03:33
ServiceRobot_ah. see, with artix, we have to rebuild all arch's packages. I guess that's not the case with devuan?03:33
ServiceRobot_so it should be in backports then huh03:33
DocScrutinizer05it should, yes03:34
ServiceRobot_alright, but my main concern is the init... if I can't completely replace it, I'll just wait.03:36
DocScrutinizer05replace which init by what?03:36
ServiceRobot_replace sysvinit with openrc or runit, or whatever will be supported03:37
djphsure, have at iy03:37
djph*it03:37
DocScrutinizer05>>When installing from ISO, the expert install option offers a choice of SysVinit and OpenRC. << http://tinyurl.com/y9pta5vm03:38
ServiceRobot_yes, I tried the expert install. it still has sysvinit left over afterwards03:45
JuestoDocScrutinizer05: ServiceRobot_: because openrc 0.23 does not replace sysvinit but you can use sucklessinit clone on openrc-init by specifying it at boot03:49
ServiceRobot_ah, right, openrc 0.25 replaces it right? when do you think that gets pushed?03:49
JuestoServiceRobot_: some packages were rebuilt because of systemd dependencies primarily, it's mostly the same Debian environment03:50
JuestoNo idea, openrc is currently at 0.35.503:50
ServiceRobot_wait, but .35 is past .25? I must be confused >_>03:53
JuestoServiceRobot_: yes, it's just the version where the change started to take effect03:55
Juestoyes 0.35.5 is latest03:55
ServiceRobot_ah, so that means it's in the process of being changed?03:55
Juestothat it's done on upstream not on Devuan, ServiceRobot_03:56
golinuxServiceRobot_: Use the backports in the devuan repos not debian's03:56
Juestoit's just a version reference03:56
ServiceRobot_right...03:56
golinuxNever mix repos.  Rule #103:56
ServiceRobot_that rule I know03:56
Juestowhich devuan repositories are available?03:57
golinuxhttps://devuan.org/os/etc/apt/sources.list03:57
golinuxJuesto: ^^^03:57
ServiceRobot_wait, so the backports has the openrc version I want?03:58
Juestodo they?03:59
golinuxIf you see it it's there03:59
Juestoi suggest visiting the repository with a browser beforehand, ServiceRobot_03:59
ServiceRobot_I thought there wasn't a way to search devuan packages yet?03:59
Juestoyes04:00
Juestobut for extra verification :)04:00
Juestoand for when search is unavailable04:00
golinuxIt isn't live yet.04:00
Juestothat too04:00
buZzapt search ? :D04:00
golinuxThere has got to be a command for that.04:00
JuestobuZz: not if not added04:01
buZzdpkg -l |grep whatyouneed ?04:01
golinuxI just search in synaptic.04:01
buZzoh, ok04:01
fsmithred  there's no openrc in any backports repo04:01
ServiceRobot_darn04:01
Juestobackports are backports04:01
golinuxI thought you had checked.04:01
buZzopenrc/testing 0.23-1+b1 amd6404:01
Juestoforks04:01
JuestoAH04:02
buZzis that what you're searching for?04:02
buZzoh, you want newer04:02
buZzgotcha04:02
Juestoyeah04:02
fsmithred0.34-3 buster/beowulf/sid/ceres04:02
Juestois sid mirrored on devuan?04:02
Juestooh it's in sid04:03
ServiceRobot_I don't think sid is even usuable yet?04:03
Juestookay so I broke into a initrd shell04:03
JuestoServiceRobot_: depends on what you call usable04:03
Juestoyou can probably import the package manually04:03
fsmithredwe haven't done a lot of work on buster or ceres yet04:04
Juestonot a good idea04:04
djphsid is always unstable04:04
Juestoagain, you could just download the specific package without adding a entire repository that would mess up the system04:05
fsmithredproblem is that among the devuanized packages, there are some newer versions in ascii than in beowulf and ceres04:05
Juestonot the case with orc :)04:05
Juestoanyway so04:05
fsmithredbetter to backport it04:05
Juestowhat i could try regarding my initramfs missing executables issue?04:05
fsmithredI have no ideas on that.04:06
ServiceRobot_ya, but I don't thin kthe backported version replaces sysvinit yet04:06
ServiceRobot_*think04:07
Juestothere's isn't a backported one?04:07
fsmithredno openrc in backports04:07
JuestoIt would replace sysvinit04:07
Juestoagain, introduced in 0.2504:08
ServiceRobot_I mean if there was one. sorry, not to be confusing04:08
ServiceRobot_okay, so it was introduced in 0.25, but what is the current version in devuan for ascii?04:08
fsmithredyou might get away with installing the buster/ceres version in ascii. *might*04:08
fsmithred2304:09
Juestoyeah that's what i suggested04:09
JuestoServiceRobot_: we are repeating the versions stuff....04:09
ServiceRobot_that would be mixing versions though. doesn't really seem maintainable. maybe I should wait?04:09
Juestouh04:09
JuestoServiceRobot_: you're not mixing anything if you're just trying to install a specific deb downloaded from the repository directly04:10
Juestomaybe or not, as he said, you *might* get away with it04:11
ServiceRobot_right, but I'm not sure how well it would work. a lot of important packages rely on sysvinit04:11
Juestoagain, openrc has compatibility04:11
JuestoServiceRobot_: ask #openrc for such concerns04:12
fsmithredis this for a production system?04:12
fsmithredor your own box at home?04:12
ServiceRobot_it's a computer I run at home, but I want something stable04:12
ServiceRobot_I'm trying to run it in a production-like way04:12
Juestoif you're going prod/daily, you're just being...04:13
Juestouh can't think a good word04:13
buZzexperimental? :D04:13
buZza guinea pig?04:13
Juestolol04:13
fsmithredI just tried a simulated install of openrc=0.34-3 in ascii04:13
buZzyou wouldnt gain more stability by installing stuff that hasnt finalized testing , ServiceRobot_04:14
fsmithred0 upgraded, 3 new, 5 to remove, 968 not upgraded04:14
Juestono, he kinda of specifically wants some kind of features04:14
Juestorip04:14
ServiceRobot_which is why I'm considering just waiting04:14
buZzi would just wait04:14
Juesto:p04:14
buZzlet other ppl do the experimentation04:14
buZz:)04:14
buZzhave your stable box be stable04:14
ServiceRobot_how long must I wait is the big question >_>04:14
buZz<1 year04:14
buZzi'm guestimating04:14
ServiceRobot_good enough to me04:14
Juestowhat your guys version of initramfs-tools and kernel are?04:15
buZz4.9.88 iirc?04:15
Juestoand the initramfs filename04:15
buZzLinux h81m 4.9.0-6-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 4.9.88-1+deb9u1 (2018-05-07) x86_64 GNU/Linux04:15
buZzinitrd.img-4.9.0-6-amd6404:15
buZzjust plain ascii here04:15
fsmithredinitramfs-tools 0.130 in ascii, beowulf and ceres04:15
JuestoOh well04:16
buZzinitramfs-tools/testing,testing,now 0.130 all [installed]04:16
Juestono idea why on earth i have btrfs but not fsck04:16
Juestowhen the opposite is happening on the installed system04:16
Juestobtrfsutils isn't installed04:16
buZzJuesto: fsck inside initramfs?04:16
Juestoand e2fsck is04:16
JuestobuZz: needed for pre-mount sanity checks04:17
buZzi guess , yeah04:17
Juestoso yea it's a problem04:25
Juestoanyone? :/04:25
gnarfaceJuesto: it's probably in the "btrfs-progs" package.  debian/devuan package names aren't all the same as other distros.  even ubuntu changes the names of some critical stuff.04:44
ServiceRobot_you know, while I'm waiting on devuan, alpine linux seems like a good alternative?04:45
gnarfaceJuesto: you can save yourself a lot of time by learning how to pass wildcards to the package search04:45
gnarfaceServiceRobot_: are you aware of the #debianfork channel?04:46
buZzServiceRobot_: 'reinstallation' isnt my idea of stable systems :)04:46
ServiceRobot_what do you mean by 'reinstallation'?04:47
buZzmoving between distros ;)04:47
gnarfaceServiceRobot_: he probably means that the best distro to use while waiting on Devuan is Devuan04:47
ServiceRobot_well I'll settle on something eventually04:47
ServiceRobot_heh, I suppose. I have a hard time making up my mind on things04:48
ServiceRobot_because I might end up finding something better04:48
gnarfaceyour error in judgement is as clear as day to me, because i've been where you are now.  but i don't have a lot of good ways to address it without sounding derogatory04:49
gnarfacethe basic gist of it, is that you're switching distros prematurely04:50
ServiceRobot_no one is above critisism04:50
ServiceRobot_I've actually stuck with the distro I've been using for about a year04:50
ServiceRobot_but I don't think I should use it for servers04:50
gnarfaceit's not that your logical evaluation of the distros is wrong - it's that your own familiarity with any one of them would easily obviate any of the concerns you are currently agonizing over04:51
buZz+104:51
ServiceRobot_so you're saying that if I become familar with it, I'd be fine with it?04:51
gnarfaceyea.  if you spent half as much time today figuring out how to make the openrc install in devuan do what you want instead of kvetching over it, you'd already have a solutino04:51
gnarface*a solution04:51
gnarfaceand a decision on distro04:52
gnarfaceit's probably also worth mentioning that i'm not even 100% sure, as someone who doesn't know openrc, whether there's anything even wrong with the install.  for all i know you're seeing some sysvinit scripts that were left in openrc as a reverse-compatibility measure and you're overreacting to it.04:53
ServiceRobot_ya, that could be it >_>.04:53
ServiceRobot_okay, but I'm also not a fan of graphical installers when it comes to being exact. there's a debootstrap tutorial for devuan, right? not sure if it was updated recently04:55
gnarfacebut we (people who hang out in linux irc support channels in general) see this pattern a lot; as a new linux user, coming from a commercial operating system environment, you're tuned to basically just blow everything out the airlock at the first sign of trouble.  around here, we don't reinstall we just alter the install in place.04:55
gnarfacethat's the way Debian was designed to be used primarily; upgraded, not reinstalled04:55
gnarfaceto the extent that the installer isn't even always as well tested as the upgrade process04:56
ServiceRobot_don't get the wrong idea. I blew the airlock off because I wanted to try something different. I've tried ubuntu, linux mint, then arch, then artix (which is working good for me). I like trying different things04:56
ServiceRobot_if there's trouble, I'll do as much research as possible to understand it04:56
gnarfaceso it's not that your evaluation of "when to reinstall" is fundamentally insane, it's just based on ideology foreign to the open source development paradigm.04:57
ServiceRobot_it's more of the question "should I give this a try. is it worth it?"04:57
gnarfacei would say it's worth it, but even that question is loaded with invalid assumptions04:58
gnarfaceyou shouldn't have to purge the old install to try a new distro04:58
Juestoblame disk space04:59
ServiceRobot_I've used virtual machines for testing04:59
gnarfaceyou could install to a blank partition on the existing drive, or to an external drive or even USB key (it would be slow but work)05:00
gnarfaceyou could use a VM but they dont' typically give you a good picture of performance or hardware compatibility05:00
buZzif with 'stable machine' you ment 'distro testbed' , then by all mean05:00
buZzs05:00
buZzjust dont expect stability when you delete your knowledge on each reinstall :P05:00
ServiceRobot_nah, any problems I run into I need to deal with. if it's something upstream I report it05:01
gnarfaceServiceRobot_: debootstrap shouldn't behave any different from debian.  just use the devuan repo url instead.05:01
buZz;) my point was most, dont confuse 'stability' with 'hey, lets try this new thing'05:01
buZzit would only get you hurt05:01
gnarfaceyea, that's a good point too05:02
DocScrutinizer05tbh I don't even care much at all which distro I run. Until recently the differences were marginal and really nothing you couldn't fix into oblivion after installing whatever flavor and then tweaking the packages and configs05:02
buZzsure, and thats all good for a testbed05:02
buZznot for stability though05:02
Juestowhat's the difference between merged and devuan?05:03
Juestopackages.devuan.org/devuan05:03
gnarfacei think it's supposed to be /merged05:03
Juestohm05:04
Juestomust be a leftover05:04
gnarfaceprobably something outdated, or maybe just a mistake05:04
gnarfacei don't know05:04
gnarfaceit was supposed to be merged only, last i heard05:04
JuestoAh it's old05:04
Juestohmmmmm05:05
Juesto:s05:05
DocScrutinizer05afaik related to !amprolla05:05
Juesto!amprolla05:06
infobotnextime gave an excellent explanation how amprolla works, at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/2016-05-07/?msg=65646427&page=4, or https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/amprolla05:06
Juesto~say05:07
Juestohmmmmmmm05:07
Juesto!say05:07
infobotsay what?05:07
Juestolol05:07
Juestoanyway05:07
Juestofor some reason initramfs doesn't appear to work properly05:07
Juestoor I'm doing something wrong05:08
gnarfaceany error messages?05:08
Juestoanyway, which being in the initrd shell is not ideal05:08
Juestoeh05:08
Juestothere's issues with the tools included, gnarface05:09
Juestomount doesn't do -t auto05:09
Juestofsck is missing there05:10
gnarfacehmmm05:10
gnarfacedid update-initramfs not get run last time you rebuilt your kernel?05:11
Juestognarface: it's producing the same bad initrd05:11
gnarfacethis was for btrfs you said?  did you make sure btrfs-progs was installed before you ran it?05:11
Juestognarface: I don't have a raid05:12
Juestobut guess what05:12
Juestoit's generating a initramfs with brtfs but without fsck05:13
gnarfacethat does seem strange05:13
Juestoand i have the opposite in the installed system05:13
Juestoi don't have brtfs installed05:13
Juestooh nvm05:13
gnarfacels -l /sbin/fsck*05:13
gnarfacesome of these filesystems, they've been replacing the normal fsck.* symlink with a broken wrapper script.05:14
gnarfaceas best as i can tell it's a purposeful attempt to sabotage everything but ext405:14
gnarface(thinly disguised as incompetence, but try to file a bug report about it and you'll realize what's going on)05:14
gnarfaceanyway, find the right binary, delete the broken wrapper script, write an angry letter if it helps you feel better, then put the symlink back and re-run update-initramfs -u -k all05:15
Juestofsck.ext* = symblink to e2fsck05:15
gnarfaceyea, they didn't break the ext* ones05:15
Juestognarface: this is a initrd problem05:16
Juestoi don't know if it's exactly broken or not05:16
Juestobecause05:16
Juestoi just found /usr/share/initramfs-tools05:17
Juestothat should be the place to look at since is where the scripts used come from05:17
Juestomy fstab consists in "rootfs / rootfs rw 0 0"05:18
gnarfaceheh05:18
gnarfacedoesn't look valid to me05:18
gnarfacebut what do i know05:18
gnarfacealso i'm pretty sure if that fsck.btrfs isn't in /sbin, it won't work05:19
gnarfacebut i don't claim to have tried btrfs05:19
Juestognarface: it's spec file vfstype mntops freq passno05:19
gnarfaceis it?05:20
Juestoi just told you the order of the fstab05:21
Juestowhat's each thing05:21
gnarfacewhat actually happens wrong?05:22
Juestognarface: the issue is with initrd05:23
gnarfacei gathered that part but you're gonna have to be more specific if i can help05:23
gnarfacedoes it fail to boot?  do you get an error?  what is the error?05:24
gnarfacei've never seen "rootfs" used in that context in a valid fstab file.05:24
gnarfacethat doesn't guarantee it's invalid, but right now we have a situation where you've told me nebulously there's something wrong with your initrd.img and shown me an invalid fstab file.05:25
gnarfacei've got enough information to tell you what's wrong with the fstab file, but not the initrd.img05:25
Juestognarface: apparently update-initramfs depends on the running fstab...05:25
gnarfaceyea, it might.  all kinds of things rely on a valid fstab.  (not systemd though)05:26
Juesto...05:26
gnarfaceit might not surprise you to know that "mount -a" also relies on fstab05:26
Juestoi already knew that :)05:26
gnarfaceso, you said it can't find the mount points and then show me an invalid fstab.  where is the mystery?05:27
gnarfaceyou want me to help you make a valid fstab?  that's easy, i can help.05:27
Juestognarface: no, the problem is: i don't get fsck in the initrd05:27
Juestothe binary isn't getting added at all05:28
gnarfacewell it would need to be able to find your filesystem and mount it to succeed at that...05:29
gnarfacewhich it would need a valid fstab for05:29
gnarfacei'm not saying that's the only problem.  there could be others, but this is definitely one.05:29
gnarfaceJuesto: sorry, i must have missed something important.  how did you even get into this situation?  are you trying to migrate an existing install to btrfs?05:31
Juestognarface: no, it's a laptop05:32
JuestoI'm trying to recover fsck05:32
Juestoget fsck back there05:32
gnarfacedo you have a live cd or usb image you can boot from?05:33
gnarfaceor another machine you can plug the harddrive into?05:34
gnarfaceeven if you have an older kernel version still installed it might be bootable05:38
gnarfacethe initrd.img files are paired with individual kernel versions05:38
gnarface(assuming you're using stock kernels; if you're not, all bets are off here)05:38
Juestognarface: i am, i think it's the fstab05:54
gnarfacewell the first "rootfs" needs to be a valid UUID or /dev/ device node file path and the second one needs to be the name of the filesystem driver (ext4 or btrfs or whatever)05:56
gnarface"rw" for the fourth parameter will probably work but you should put "defaults" there until you know better05:56
gnarfacethe last two fields should be 0 105:57
gnarfaceand that is just the root filesystem.  if you have other partitions, they'll be ignored unless you add them here too.05:58
gnarfaceyou might very well only have that one data partition but usually there would at least be a second partition for swap05:58
gnarfaceyou can find out the existing UUIDs from /dev/disk/by-uuid/ if you can boot it, but be warned that they'll change if you resize or reformat any of those partitions05:59
Juestognarface: i just said the meaning of the fstab entries06:24
Juestoi resized a partition and the uuid didn't change afaik06:25
aitorgood morning06:59
aitori've isolated the code of the netstatus plugin for LXPanel, ported by Hong Jen Yee (PCManFM) from the original code comming from the GNOME2 netstatus panel applet07:02
aitori want to use it in the backend of simple-netaid07:02
aitorit uses an unix socket depending on libiw-dev07:03
aitori isolated it in a main.c and it's building succesfully07:03
aitorthe applet seems to be a work in progress, because it doesn't appear in my LXPanel07:05
aitorsurelly, there is a LxDE mailing list; i'll write there...07:06
aitorno more news for now :)07:06
aitorhave a nice day!07:06
_abc_Hello. I have multiple volumes which get mounted or not, and updatedb runs when all are mounted, then locate behaves as if I'd issue locate -e, not finding things on not (yet) mounted volumes. How do I make locate behave normally, showing db contents instead of -e ?09:05
_abc_This is "new" in ascii and may have also been in jessie09:05
_abc_https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=167104 again systemd hitting under the beltline. Even locate/updatedb is affected09:21
earthnative"again" makes it sound like something new. that's nearly a 5 year old thread09:27
_abc_Yes and it still hurts, sort of.10:36
_abc_How does one do the locate non -e thing please?10:36
_abc_I would like to not read source and recompile mlocate from source to make it work10:36
DocScrutinizer05a friend of mine once built a wget that completely ignored robots.txt. I guess when locate/updatedb got lobotopoetterized then a fork is in order10:40
DocScrutinizer05also >> Note that this may slow down the program a lot, if there are many matches in the database.<< will most certainly apply to this case as well. Ohmy11:00
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: hm? Not following? Im Klartext, bitte?11:12
_abc_I am going to run locate under strace to see what it really does.11:12
_abc_So: 1) used devuan does not have /var/lib/mlocate/mlocate.db group access, requires adding devuan to mlocate group or changing permissions on the db file to permit universal read.11:25
_abc_2) the problem persists, is not solved by changing permissions.11:25
_abc_additionally, /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive exists which contains alternate / cached locale data?11:26
_abc_Ok, so I strace'd locate (mlocate): when run without option -e, the strace shows each found match in the db is tested for access() before being reported, and is not reported without access() success, even if no -e flag is given. This is wrong.11:31
_abc_Need to get and recompile mlocate from source now. I need this feature. what the hell, don't people notice these things? Index unmounted fs's and search in them while offline using locate?! What the HELL.11:31
DocScrutinizer05_abc_: what's unclear? I quoted a similar fsckup in wghet that a friend fixed, then concluded that for such type of fsckup a for and new build is probably the way to go. Then I mused about performance impact ofg the braindamaged poetterization on locate11:53
DocScrutinizer05and locale != locate11:55
DocScrutinizer05locale-archive afaik is a compiled blob of all .po or whatever localizations11:55
DocScrutinizer05re -e I bet that's a 'feature', no bug. "Needed to ensure security" (as Poettering / freedesktop understands it)11:58
DocScrutinizer05you prolly can find a commit on this11:58
DocScrutinizer05note that -e aiui also hides files in non-x dirs from regular users, even when updatedb is run as root12:01
DocScrutinizer05which prolly is the reason to "FIX that BUUUUG!!!!"  -  idiots12:01
DocScrutinizer05googlw for "poettering: -e must become default and only allowed behavior in locate"12:03
DocScrutinizer05_abc_: https://github.com/crossroads1112/tlocate12:09
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: http://188.26.183.144:8888/w/mlocate-0.26-patch/12:23
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: the bug was introduced by Red Hat (per author who works there >;), but not by our Pott Pott friend.12:24
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: the -0.26 mlocate is from 2006 or s, per author date put in there.12:24
_abc_Enjoy. Moving on.12:24
_abc_(/me quips something unprintable about high pressure work environments which leave coders no real time to check their private (??) projects)12:25
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: please copy that out and wherever, it is a temp page in a mini box, it might come down soon, like tonight.12:26
_abc_I will put this on my webpages at peter5.50webs.com soon, have other things to organize before that.12:26
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: got it?12:29
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: u:none p:none on that directory12:30
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: emailed original package author and package debian maintainer12:49
DocScrutinizer05who's that?12:50
DocScrutinizer05OA12:50
DocScrutinizer05yeah, got it12:50
DocScrutinizer05_abc_:   - locate $known_file_on_umounted -> must not appear  ++ --exists12:54
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: no12:54
_abc_yes ok12:54
DocScrutinizer05that small code snippet in patch already makes me cringe12:57
DocScrutinizer05if (*visible == -1) foo; if (*visible != 1) bar; // Who The Fsck writes such code?12:57
DocScrutinizer05it stinks like bugs12:58
DocScrutinizer05note it checks for -1 and 112:59
DocScrutinizer05while "visible" to me sounds like a bool13:00
DocScrutinizer05ooh I see what they do13:02
DocScrutinizer05still stinks like bugs13:03
* DocScrutinizer05 shoots the coder with >>(conf_check_existence != false)<< and "Boolean logic for the braindamaged" - nobody writes "!= false"13:05
DocScrutinizer05"if (conf_check_existence != false)" :=: "if (conf_check_existence)"13:06
_abc_Package build question: the makefile in the mlocate package makes a locate with wrong locatedb location with default ./configure, even after patching.13:08
_abc_Where is the real debian makefile for this package located? I got: apt-get source mlocate which retrieved mlocate_0.2613:08
_abc_This is a general devuan/debian package reqbuild question,13:09
gnarfaceuse dpkg-buildpackage13:11
gnarfaceyou're not supposed to be running ./configure directly in a source package13:11
gnarfacethere are some scripts in the ./debian directory13:11
gnarfaceyou can run some of them directly if you want, but dpkg-buildpackage does that for you13:12
gnarfaceit's probably worth mentioning though that even if it weren't a source package, the default path prefix for configure is always wrong, on purpose (/usr/local)13:12
DocScrutinizer05hah13:14
* DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders where the locatedb lives13:15
DocScrutinizer05etc/? /var/?13:15
DocScrutinizer05usr/lib/ ? :-o13:16
djphaccording to the manpage /var/lib/mlocate/mlocate.db13:16
DocScrutinizer05sounds sane13:17
DocScrutinizer05http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/f8jdd4QY5r http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/tjPxrKpf2k   UMMM http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/pwM2xGRx9613:25
DocScrutinizer05http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/RzY78Vr6C613:30
_abc_How does one recompile a debian package once the source is gotten with apt-get source package ?13:33
DocScrutinizer05http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/yBqzcmWVXx13:33
fsmithred_abc_, 'apt-get build-dep' to get the build dependencies13:34
fsmithreddpkg-buildpackage -us -uc -b13:34
_abc_fsmithred: the deps are in, it balks on signing and such13:34
fsmithred(there are other ways)13:34
_abc_debuild -b -uc -us seems to do it yes13:34
_abc_fsmithred: tell more. Did you see my link and patch?13:34
fsmithredno13:34
fsmithredI did read some of the discussion13:35
fsmithredand I'm confused, because I was using locate yesterday, and it was showing me files that I know were deleted13:35
fsmithreddoes it handle those differently from the ones that just aren't currently mounted and available?13:36
_abc_fsmithred: debuilder is not in the ascii packages13:37
djphthe cronjob for updatedb only runs on occasion.13:37
_abc_fsmithred: I don't know. What version do you have? My patch certainly fixes the problem, I straced locate to make sense of it13:37
_abc_fsmithred: yes, differently, it checks the path dir by dir then the file13:38
DocScrutinizer05my debian locate is FUBAR13:38
_abc_how?13:38
DocScrutinizer05doesn't find files in my own ~13:38
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: you need to add used devuan to group mlocate13:38
_abc_*user13:38
fsmithred0.26-2 (ascii)13:38
_abc_this is also a bug13:38
_abc_That's the one I have too fsmithred13:38
_abc_See my comment above, it is different, if the dir exists, it 'succeeds'13:39
_abc_try: mkdir /tmp/footest; touch /tmp/footest/foo13:39
DocScrutinizer05neither does root find files in user's $HOME13:39
_abc_then updtedb (may not look in tmp!), then locate foo; rm -rf /tmp/footest13:39
fsmithredI'm not in mlocate group and I see files in my home13:39
_abc_then locate foo; then locate -e13:40
_abc_fsmithred: it uses a cache when that is the case13:40
_abc_wait a second13:40
gnarfacefsmithred: you don't need it you know.  if it annoys you, just get rid of it.13:40
gnarfacedisks seek so fast anyway these days it seems silly13:41
fsmithredit's not annoying me. I was just wondering why I didn't see the behavior that was described13:41
_abc_open("/var/lib/mlocate/mlocate.db", O_RDONLY|O_LARGEFILE) = 3 ;; one type of access, if present and readable13:41
_abc_fsmithred: did you try to delete or umount the directory13:41
fsmithredoh, locate is way faster than 'find / -name...13:41
DocScrutinizer05http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/8QsGYVfBxn13:42
fsmithredI didn't test with unmounted stuff13:42
DocScrutinizer05PRETTY_NAME="Debian GNU/Linux 9 (stretch)"13:42
_abc_fsmithred: of course, and mlocate uses db splay tree insertion on new files, does not waste time on reindexing13:42
_abc_fsmithred: the goal is to index files on backup/usb stick etc and be able to reference the with locate when not mounted13:43
_abc_fsmithred: this is normal use in many cases13:43
fsmithredyeah, that's what I would have expected13:43
_abc_It's enough to delete/rename the dir where the file is13:43
_abc_mv ~/tmp/test ~/tmp/test113:43
DocScrutinizer05prolly configured to death on Stretch, or killed by systemd13:44
_abc_Anyway, I can't located debuild anywhere fsmithred13:44
fsmithredhang on for debuild13:44
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: this one time, no, but the oem author DOES work for Red Hat...13:44
fsmithredmaybe devscripts13:44
_abc_google can't find it even by file in package beyond etch?13:44
_abc_*wheezy13:45
DocScrutinizer05_abc_: hmm?13:45
fsmithredyeah, debuild is in the devscripts package13:45
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: the maintainer is a Norway guy by name, the author worked at Red Hat in 200613:45
DocScrutinizer05I don't care author, my locate doesn't find files in ~user/13:45
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: sudo chmod 644 /var/lib/mlocate/mlocate.db13:46
DocScrutinizer05wait, maybe it got fucked up on dist upgrade13:46
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: then sudo updatedb, and check your ~user is not mounted on something nixed by /etc/updatedb.conf13:46
DocScrutinizer05root@lagrange:~# ls -l /var/lib/mlocate/mlocate.db13:46
DocScrutinizer05ls: cannot access '/var/lib/mlocate/mlocate.db': No such file or directory13:46
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: I think that that is an oem Red Hat features only, bugs not acknowledged, untested, Red Hat thing13:47
_abc_It's a company mentality apparently.13:47
DocScrutinizer05this is STETCH13:47
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: sudo apt-get install mlocate?13:47
DocScrutinizer05o.O13:47
_abc_Oh I don't know about stretch13:47
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: what does your /usr/bin/locate point at13:48
fsmithredit's the same mlocate in debian and devuan13:48
_abc_I'm on ascii he's on stretch?13:48
DocScrutinizer05root@lagrange:~# locate --version13:48
DocScrutinizer05locate (GNU findutils) 4.7.0-git13:48
_abc_^13:48
_abc_that's the wrong locate, there are 313:48
_abc_mlocate slocate and the one you have13:48
DocScrutinizer05I bet it simply doesn'T run updatedb anymore. THANK YOU SYSTEM D13:48
fsmithredlocate --version13:48
fsmithredmlocate 0.2613:48
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: yeah, it detects the file by remote accessing a tank of genetically modified ni dolphins in California13:49
DocScrutinizer05http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/MJyPbyfRVt13:49
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: so I see it finds it in your ~?13:50
DocScrutinizer05^^^13:50
DocScrutinizer05I bet it simply doesn'T run updatedb anymore. THANK YOU SYSTEM D13:50
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: iirc slocate can do that too, not sure13:51
_abc_fsmithred: mlocate performance is quite good enough to use it as general system file finder .13:51
DocScrutinizer05cronjobs nuked13:51
_abc_fsmithred: I mean add 3 buttons and a search text input for gui and all. I do that sometimes.13:52
DocScrutinizer05during upgrade ro stretch13:52
DocScrutinizer05to*13:52
fsmithredI use locate a lot.13:52
_abc_locate -ir is a godsend13:52
_abc_So, anyway, I emailed the maintainer and oem author, let's see if this patch gets in the normal releases by "itself"13:53
DocScrutinizer05http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/JGHgPqfzPC13:54
DocScrutinizer05honestly, I don't think 0.26 is the version to use13:57
DocScrutinizer05unless GNU findutils are systemd infested13:58
_abc_http://188.26.183.144:8888/w/mlocate-0.26-patch/ updated the readme, no other changes13:59
_abc_The patch works fine13:59
DocScrutinizer05then, even maemo (2011) used GNU findutils locate 4.4.214:00
_abc_I don't think that that is relevant for the current discussion. There is such a thing as backports, and also security patches14:01
_abc_https://packages.debian.org/stretch/mlocate fyi14:05
_abc_0.26_2 is current14:05
_abc_Do not confuse findutils version with mlocate version14:05
_abc_fsmithred: it appears persistence volumes used on the live system ascii desktop and maybe others are not picked up as persistence unless the volume name is persistence14:07
_abc_fsmithred: is this normal?14:07
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: rlocate may be better for you, depending on what you do14:07
_abc_http://rlocate.sourceforge.net/ you can read the blurb14:08
_abc_Most people do NOT want slocate excepting for users on limited rights accounts.14:08
fsmithred_abc_, if the persistent volume name is not persistence, you need to add a boot option to give it the right name14:10
fsmithredto use the right name, I mean14:10
fsmithredpersistence-label=<your-label>14:13
_abc_oh14:14
_abc_okay I missed that14:14
DocScrutinizer05_abc_: why? my locate works14:15
_abc_You said your locate does not work, I think? Before?14:16
_abc_Brb need to eat something14:16
DocScrutinizer05and it's findutils-gnu, not mlocate14:16
DocScrutinizer05on Devian Stretch14:16
DocScrutinizer05on Suse it's 0.25 but works as expected14:17
DocScrutinizer050.26 even14:17
DocScrutinizer05what doesn't work on Stretch is the updatedb cronjob14:18
DocScrutinizer05prolly doesn't even exist anymore, gracefully nuked by dist-upgrade14:19
buZzman, armbian is such annoying distro14:29
buZzthe main benefit is the kernels and general 'flashable images' they make14:30
buZzbut man14:30
buZzpremade image for (ok, brandnew) board i'm using, has kernel X14:30
buZzbut they didnt like to offer kernel headers to match that kernel14:30
DocScrutinizer05tz14:41
DocScrutinizer05bootloader blob too?14:41
msiismso, devuan ascii offers gnome, right?14:42
buZzoffers a lot of window managers, gnome is one, yeah14:43
buZzDocScrutinizer05: well, allwinner stuff14:43
DocScrutinizer05gnome sans system D?14:43
buZztheir argument for 'not having to give source' is 'we built it from the patches in this github dir'14:43
buZzno branches, etc14:43
buZzoh, no?14:44
buZzi dno, i never tried gnome since 214:44
DocScrutinizer05hmm >>Desktop Environments including XFCE, KDE, MATE, Cinnamon, LXQT (with others available post-install).<<14:44
buZzah yeah Mate, thats the gnome fork14:44
DocScrutinizer05https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/ascii-rc-announce-05091814:44
DocScrutinizer05I don't know if it was already gnome2 when I went scream&run14:45
msiismok, right i could have had a look at that myself...14:45
msiismbtw, this is not about me liking or wanting to use gnome14:45
msiismbuZz: gnome is not a window manager14:46
DocScrutinizer05eventually I will learn what's the difference between DE and WM14:47
msiismit's easy: a window manager is a program that does window management. a desktop environement is a program suite that facilitates all the usual things you'd do on a desktop system. so, a DE will always have to include a wm.14:48
DocScrutinizer05yeah like kwin14:48
msiismright14:48
DocScrutinizer05but a WM on its own is pretty pointless, no?14:49
fsmithredno14:49
djphnah - see i3wm, etc.14:49
fsmithredit's a step up from plain console - at minimum, you get a terminal and can run graphical apps14:50
DocScrutinizer05hmm, prolly I could start a xterm in a WM on X11 plain vanilla14:50
msiismDocScrutinizer: well, i would rather say yes, it's kind of pointless.14:50
msiismbut i guess no one is just running window manager.14:51
msiismmost people "just running a window manager" will have some sort of self-assembled DE around it.14:51
fsmithredand the wm itself probably has a menu and sometimes a panel14:51
msiismright. that's a bit confusing, though a menu is nice.14:52
DocScrutinizer05I seem to recall I started konqueror as primary process on X1114:52
DocScrutinizer05worked14:52
DocScrutinizer05remote, even14:53
msiismDocScrutinizer05: i always disliked konqueror for being a web browser and file manager in one. feels a bit unsafe. but i never really investigated that.14:54
gnarfacefirefox has plenty of local filesystem access to cause trouble14:56
DocScrutinizer05yeah, as web browser it sucks donkey balls by now14:56
DocScrutinizer05then otoh it's so old and bit rotten, it's prolly immune to any contenporary exloit ;-P14:57
msiismi like w3m, it's even being maintained again.14:57
buZzso fluxbox is a DE?15:04
buZzwhat are the 'usual things i would do on a desktop system' and why does a DE do that and not a WM?15:05
djphDEs tend to use coordinate-based windowing (so they can overlap)15:06
buZzeh? so overlapping windows makes it a DE?15:06
fsmithredno15:06
djphWMs can too, but I think they tend to just tile15:06
buZzi think DE = WM + xterm15:06
buZzor whatever tools you wanna click on15:07
muep_I'd not generalize it like that. tiling wms certainly are popular but there are dozens of stacking WMs15:07
djphFurther, AIUI, DEs present more "click-based" utilities.  WMs are just "oh, I needed a graphical application that one time"15:07
fsmithredDE often has added utilities for admin, search, widgets to add to panel, mounting external drives...15:09
muep_a DE almost certainly has some kind of a panel in the first place. many WMs designed for standalone use have one too but providing the panel does go out of the basic tasks of being a WM15:10
muep_e.g. openbox is a WM that AFAIK is not associated with a wider "DE" project but it still does not have a panel. quite often in screenshots that feature openbox there is then some panel program added by the user15:11
fsmithredability for user to reboot and shutdown is also missing from pure WM15:14
msiismthose terms... well, generally, even if you just run plain X with an xterm in it, that is a desktop enviironment, but a pretty bare one.15:14
fsmithredyeah, there's not a real clear boundary between the two15:15
msiismand then, "desktop environment" is being used as a general term for what i'd call a "desktop suite". but i'm not gonna imposa that. :)15:15
buZzDE is just a WM with too many dependancies15:16
msiismbuZz: no15:16
buZz:P15:16
msiism:D15:16
msiismas fsmithred has already sort of mentioned, a DE also has some stuff under the hood that are simply beyond window management15:16
msiismfor example session managment15:17
msiismthings to facilitate fast user switching and so on15:17
muep_file manager15:17
msiismmuep_: well, that's not exactly under the hood, but yes, a good example15:18
muep_yes it's not under the hood but something that almost anything called a DE will supply and which is not typically included in a WM15:18
msiismand file managers are also often sort of bound to a De, at least with the major DE's file managers15:18
muep_especially if the DE is one that is designed around the "desktop metaphor"15:19
msiismmuep_: right, if my wm would include a file manager, i'd flip out.15:19
muep_because then there would often be an instance of the file manager running to provide icons and files on the desktop15:19
msiismmuep_: that do you mean by "desktop metaphor". the opposite of tiling/tabbing?15:20
msiisms/that/what15:20
muep_the opposite to tiling/tabbing imo is just a stacking WM15:20
msiismok, right. but what's desktop metaphor then?15:20
muep_following the desktop metaphor will typically involve using a stacking WM but then there's also the concept of representing the filesystem as folders and icons15:21
muep_and manipulation of those in a way that remotely mimics manipulation of stuff on a real desktop15:22
msiismok, i see. that makes sense15:22
msiism(i like icons)15:22
muep_you could use emacs as your window manager and then you could have in your WM a file manager, code editor, some games and a couple of IRC clients...15:23
msiism:D15:23
msiismdid you try?15:23
muep_I like keeping the window manager separate, but there is a package for emacs to do this https://github.com/ch11ng/exwm/wiki/Screenshots15:24
msiismthat's crazy15:24
muep_I think it's quite awesome but I don't think it's for me15:25
msiismok15:25
muep_I don't live that completely in emacs15:26
muep_this is nowadays often taken as a given, but there was a time when some people had to invent the whole concept https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_metaphor15:27
msiismnice.15:29
msiismi was recently trying to imagine what an operating system really is by thinking of it in terms of how you'd "run" a house. didn't get too far with that, though.15:31
DocScrutinizer05don't know if somebody said it since >><buZz> i think DE = WM + xterm<< but I think a DE has a task bar and a window bar, start menu, multiple screens  etc pp15:39
DocScrutinizer05alt+Tab and whatnot15:42
msiismthat's window management15:42
DocScrutinizer05sure?15:43
msiismwhat does alt+tab do on your system?15:43
DocScrutinizer05opens a window with a list of window captions and favicons and you can navigate that with alt+Tab down and shift+alt+Tab up. when you releast alt, it opens that window15:44
DocScrutinizer05that window with focus15:44
DocScrutinizer05in list15:44
msiismwell, i'd consider this window management. and so does my window manager. :)15:45
DocScrutinizer05I think particularly that list window is beyond WM15:45
DocScrutinizer05might be wrong15:45
msiismwell, in openbox you have fast window switching with alt+tab (or whatever key you bind that to) and also a function that shows a list of all windows on alldesktops.15:46
Lydia_Kopenbox <315:47
msiismit's very nice indeed15:47
msiismbtw, to bring this conversation back to more devuan-related issues: if anyone is interested in re-creating the openbox-themes package that Debian had up until wheezy, ping me, i've done some work on this already (but no packaging work...).15:49
msiismgotta install a blu-ray recorder on this machine. bbl.15:56
_abc_Hello. Re: updatedb patch and mlocate: I had a discussion with the oem package creator, no longer maintainer "Miloslav Trmac" and he said that the package is okay as is since there's a security issue when applying my patch, users being able to see other people's files20:19
_abc_I tend to disagree, since the check is in there anyway, checking the check check now.20:20
_abc_So it appears he is right (hey he wrote the package), and using just 'updatedb --requre-visibility no' compiles a flag into the db header which does what my patch does. Duh.20:27
_abc_The init came in roundabout ways so I missed it when I dissected the code.20:27
_abc_Okay, this ONE time it wasn't systemd's fault ;) ;)20:27
_abc_As I discussed with the oem author, to get the permissions check working with indexed items on umounted media, one has to second guess the kernel's security resolution mechanism, including any selinx acl's etc. And that is not feasible.20:28
_abc_The other way would be to store uid.gid+perm in the db. This is not done now.20:29
Criggieproofpoint is a pretty shitty mailwasher22:43

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.17.0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at https://mg.pov.lt/irclog2html/!