libera/#devuan/ Wednesday, 2018-06-06

xrogaanhuh, weird05:04
xrogaanMounting a secondary ext4 disk through udisks has it with root perms instead of the user's.05:04
drwhiteHi folks!05:06
xrogaanmakes sense in a way05:07
drwhiteI was trying to install Devuan on my system but I could not get the WLAN to work. Is there a version that has the WLAN drivers and applications built in?05:08
fsmithredthe live isos have wireless firmware already installed05:09
fsmithredwhat wireless hardware do you have?05:09
fsmithreddrwhite, ^^^05:10
drwhiteI used the install, and installed everything on the ISO, and I couldn't get my WLAN card to work.05:12
drwhiteNetwork controller: Intel Corporation Centrino Ultimate-N 630005:13
drwhitesoz, got DC05:15
fsmithredI think it uses firmware-iwlwifi05:16
fsmithredthe debs are in the iso, in /firmware05:16
fsmithreddrwhite, you have a bootable system?05:17
fsmithredI need to sleep. This should help - https://wiki.debian.org/iwlwifi05:18
fsmithredalso, make sure the default wireless interface is set correctly in wicd (if that's what you're using)05:19
xrogaanwhich is the most sensible: create a partition for my user and mount it in my /home folder or have the disk available system wide with a specific folder for each users?05:22
gnarfacexrogaan: the permissions belong to the mount point, not the user or the parent filesystem you're mounting it under.05:26
gnarfacexrogaan: if you want that overridden to be "owned by whatever user mounted it this time" there are mount options for that though05:26
gnarfacexrogaan: (worth noting that's a gaping large security risk but rope is free here)05:26
xrogaanwell yeah, I don't want whomever user to be able to mount the drive :P05:29
gnarfacexrogaan: and yes, the more sensible approach is to mount it under /usr/local somewhere, and just give permissions on subdirectories thereof to users as necessary05:29
xrogaanoh, /usr/local and not /mnt?05:29
gnarfacewell, it's really up to you.05:30
xrogaanwhy would you chose /usr/local though?05:30
gnarfacethat's what it's for05:31
gnarface /mnt sortof carries a "temporary" connotation05:31
gnarfacebut debian provides /media/* for such by default05:31
gnarfaceanother option, if this were to be a disk ONLY for giving users more /home space, would be to just mount all of /home on it directly, and copy their existing home directories over as-is, preserving existing permissions05:33
gnarface... which might be the easiest solution too, if you want to avoid downtime and aren't very confident in your chown/chmod skills05:34
gnarfacei mean, if you *don't* want to avoid downtime05:34
gnarfacesorry05:34
xrogaanthere is no real use case in the system hierarchy handbook. It's a bit annoying :P05:34
gnarfacewhat is the use case exactly?05:35
xrogaanfor an extra drive05:35
gnarfaceno i mean, what's the use case for the drive05:35
gnarfaceis it permanent space, or temporary?05:35
xrogaanyour suggestion is actually pretty tempting.05:35
xrogaanpermanent05:35
gnarfaceis it shared storage, or will it all be divided up only into user-specific directories?05:36
gnarfaceif it's 100% to be used for per-user storage and it's got enough more space on it's own than the existing partition that /home is on, i'd say do it05:36
gnarfaceotherwise, probably /usr/local is where it'll be least in the way05:37
xrogaanoh, both. Personal and shared.05:37
gnarfaceif it's both personal AND shared, you don't want that under/home05:37
gnarface*under /home05:37
gnarfacei admit in the past i've used /mnt for permanent mounts but they were NFS05:38
gnarfacei don't know why that made more sense to me than using it for a local disk05:38
gnarfacedepending on what you're doing with it, some new subdirectory of /var may be a more appropriate05:39
gnarfacebut /var is more intended for stuff that's populated by automated and/or external processes05:40
gnarfacethe most important part is probably just that it makes sense to you so you remember what you did later05:40
xrogaanI believe /mnt does make sense, if it's storage and do not affect how the system runs.05:43
gnarfacelike i said, it's most important that you just don't forget about it05:43
gnarfacemount won't stop you from stacking mounts05:44
gnarfacei use /mnt disk maintenance a lot05:44
gnarface*for disk maintenance...05:44
xrogaanbut I'm really tempted to migrate /home on the new drive. However, having 250 GiO of space for the system might be a bit much.05:44
gnarfaceso you could accidentally mount a second thing there and maybe momentarily panic when you forget where the other mount was05:44
gnarface(it's non-destructive, but at this point you can easily make a mistake and lose data if you panic)05:45
gnarfacemaybe it would be better to create a sub-directory in /mnt, and use THAT as the mountpoint instead05:46
gnarfacesince the contents of /mnt aren't structured by the fhs, that way you can still use it for other stuff at the same time05:46
xrogaanmh /srv could also be used.05:46
xrogaanoh, I always used subdirectories in /mnt05:47
gnarfaceif this is a directory structure required by extra-distro commercial software you could even use /opt05:47
xrogaan/mnt/cdrom /mnt/floppy etc05:47
gnarfaceah, yes that's common, but debian/devuan provides /media/cdrom, /media/dvd, etc for such05:48
gnarface /media/zip ... etc05:48
gnarfacespecifically for removable media05:48
gnarfacedepending on how you installed, it should even populate that directory and your fstab with some sane defaults based on the drives it detects05:49
xrogaanto merge / and /home (both partitions on the same disk), I need to do that from a liveCD thing right?05:55
xrogaancan't work on the system while it's live.05:55
gnarfacewell, it's a lot safer with a livecd if you aren't sure what might break stuff06:00
gnarfaceit shouldn't be a problem to put /home into the same partition as / while it's running though, as long as you're not logged in as any of those users06:00
gnarfaceand even then, all that's likely to break is their logout scripts06:00
gnarfacethe shell should clean up after that06:00
gnarfaceif you get a few stray ssh or bash processes hung, you can just kill them06:00
gnarfacebut then, that assumes a lot about what your users aren't doing06:01
gnarfaceso yea, for this particular change a liveCD wouldn't be necessary, but in general that's a good way to reduce risk of breaking stuff in the running system06:02
gnarfacemigrating the contents of / to another drive... THAT gets really tricky without a liveCD06:03
gnarfacein general the root partition (and /usr/bin if it's on a separate one) are the ones that you can't safely yank out from underneath a running system06:04
xrogaanI'd feel safer with a livecd06:05
gnarfacethere's even tricks you can use for / and /usr/bin if you're clever, but at that point the liveCD is definitely much easier unless you have some really critical reason not to reboot the thing06:07
bluemarlinis it still bad idea to migrate directly from debian 8 to devuan ascii?07:38
NewGnuGuybluemarlin: https://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/migrate-to-ascii07:42
NewGnuGuybluemarlin: That page lists the necessary steps to perform the migration while avoiding pitfalls. Just follow those steps for best results.07:44
bluemarlinNewGnuGuy: thanks :)07:44
NewGnuGuynp, let us know if you need any help07:45
NewGnuGuybluemarlin: If you find anything on that page that could be improved, please let us know.07:47
bluemarlinseems to work without any issue so far :)07:57
NewGnuGuygreat to hear07:58
NewGnuGuybluemarlin: I'm about to head to bed. The Europeans in the project should be up in a few hours. They should be able to answer any questions.07:59
NewGnuGuyttyl07:59
bluemarlinthanks, see you around :)08:00
hiyaWhat's up guys12:53
hiyaI am using PureOS.net right now. I see the Gnome is useless resource heavy although beautiful12:53
hiyabut i would love to switch to Devuan and want to see some pictures from default DE/XFCE and how it looks. Anyone made a video?12:54
hiyaI would like devuan_ascii_rc12:54
fsmithredhere's a screenshot of ascii/xfce: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=9460#p946012:57
hiyait is default and official DE13:01
hiya?13:01
fsmithredyes, xfce is the default, but there are other choices in the installer isos13:02
hiyafsmithred, where is the Menu Bar?13:02
hiyaTop or bottom?13:02
fsmithredusually at the bottom13:02
hiyaClick on Main Menu and share screenshot if possible?13:02
fsmithredcan't do it right now13:02
bluemarlinisn't changing position of the bar like 5-click-work tops?13:03
KatolaZhiya: these are all things you can customize anyway....13:03
KatolaZo_O13:03
hiyaWell, I love how Manjaro looks or Xubuntu is not bad eithe r13:03
hiyaBut I love free/libre distro only13:03
KatolaZhiya: your desktop looks how you want it to look13:03
KatolaZ...13:03
hiyaGnome looks beautiful generally13:03
fsmithredprobably pretty easy to make devuan look like manjaro or xubuntu13:03
hiyaOk13:03
hiyabut if it is the default look and appearance, it rocks!13:04
hiyaWhy not use systemd in nutshell?13:04
hiyahttps://dev1galaxy.org/files/ascii_desktop.png = looks good too13:05
hiyaneat and clean13:05
hiyaThere is no Network Manager, right?13:05
fsmithredwicd is default13:05
KatolaZhiya: there is network manager as well13:05
fsmithrednetwork-manager is in repo13:05
hiyaBut I want to learn and use the default stuff only13:06
hiyaSo no OpenVPN plugin?13:06
fsmithredconnman is in repo and is default in some desktop (lxqt?)13:06
fsmithrednm does vpn13:06
hiyaNo problem, I use cli but I just do guides etc so13:07
hiyaHow much of RAM is used on boot by default?13:07
fsmithredI think xfce currently uses around 150-18013:08
fsmithredkde uses all your ram and your neighbor's13:08
hiyaGnome uses almost 2.5GB out of 3.8GB13:08
KatolaZhiya: you don't have GNOME in devuan13:09
hiyaI know13:09
hiyaThat is why I am coming here13:09
hiyaSomeone PMed me long back when this project was starting13:09
hiyabut I didn't understand issues with systemd13:09
hiyaCan I use service command?13:10
fsmithredyes13:10
hiyaor systemctl's replacement?13:10
fsmithredno13:10
hiyaOk13:10
hiyaTorrent link of Live ISO?13:10
hiyaCan't find13:10
fsmithredno ascii torrent yet - soon13:10
fsmithrednot sure if we make a torrent of the live isos13:11
fsmithredbut stick around for a couple minutes and maybe we'll know for sure13:11
hiyahttps://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/os/Linux/distr/devuan/devuan_ascii_rc/desktop-live/devuan_ascii_2.0.0-rc_amd64_desktop-live.iso13:12
hiyaIs it good?13:12
fsmithredin general, yes, but someone on forum reported problems using that iso. Two people reported that checksum was wrong13:12
fsmithredjust get it from files.devuan.org13:13
KatolaZhiya: there is no torrent for RC13:13
fsmithredhiya, there will be a torrent for all the isos13:13
fsmithredand you can download all or part13:13
hiyaI am downloading from Leaseweb13:14
hiyaI hope it works fine13:14
fsmithredbrb13:14
hiyaAre you spying on us like Windows?13:16
hiyajk jk runs (sorry if bad joke) its 6%13:17
KatolaZhiya: ?13:18
hiyaKatolaZ, was trying to be funny.13:18
KatolaZoh I see...13:18
KatolaZ:)13:18
hiyaIs it Debian Testing?13:18
hiyajk jk = joke joke13:18
KatolaZhiya: it's Devuan over here13:18
hiyaBut Devuan Testing = ASCII ?13:19
fsmithredascii uses stretch packages13:19
hiyaYes13:19
hiyaoh13:19
fsmithred(I almost said squeeze)13:19
hiyaI want newer than stretch13:19
hiyapossible?13:19
KatolaZnot yet hiya13:19
fsmithredpossible, but not advised13:20
hiyaOk. This is why I use PureOS, its testing13:20
fsmithredyou can upgrade to beowulf if you want to be the first to report problems13:20
hiyalol no I don't want to be first13:20
KatolaZhiya: aren't you happy with PureOS?13:20
hiyaKatolaZ, I am happy but RAM uses is the problem, I might switch to 8GB13:21
fsmithreddump gnome for a lighter DE or a WM13:21
KatolaZhiya: just install XFCE on PureOS13:21
KatolaZit's easier that it sounds13:21
hiyaI am fighting to get official XFCE13:22
hiyathey are considering it13:22
fsmithredwhat choices do they have?13:22
hiyaGnome only13:25
hiyaI will try Devuan anyways13:26
hiyaI don't need bleeding edge13:26
hiyaI need to get my job done13:26
hiyahttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GR2y0xOIIdI13:34
hiyaMagic ^13:34
hiyaIt looks like Manjaro13:34
msiismi've recently made some corrections to the devuan article in the german wikipedia. on the discussion page for that article, someone is claiming that init freedom was already there in debian, because debian offers packages for sysvinit, openrc, runit etc. i think this is not actually happening out of bad intention. so, i'd like to give reasonable answer. i've already put down a draft in german and quickly translated that17:13
msiismell. all available at: http://paste.debian.net/hidden/d62ca2bf/ comments and corrections welcome!17:13
msiism(i'll wait until ascii is out before posting that)17:14
DocScrutinizer05msiism: to the point17:23
DocScrutinizer05indeed each single genuine devuan package came into existence only because it didn't work without systemd in the debian variant, so devuan forked and patched it. All packages that are not listed on ~packages https://git.devuan.org/groups/devuan-packages are actually just pulled "verbatim" from debian in realtime, see ~amprolla17:26
msiismDocScrutinizer05: ok, thanks. yes, i should probably stress the "pulled from Debian" part more.17:27
DocScrutinizer05and aiui the ~packages list is not even comprehensive in that there are probably more packages on debian that would need forking to work on a sysdfree system17:28
msiismok17:28
DocScrutinizer05a nice "killer argument" would prolly be a debian "apt-get -s install sysvinit" diagnostic output quote17:29
DocScrutinizer05which will prolly look like "2 new packages installed, 3 updated, 969 removed"17:30
msiism:D17:31
muep_it would depend a lot on what exact set of packages you start with17:31
msiismDocScrutinizer05: i have debian 9 available, so i'll try that17:31
DocScrutinizer05sure, let'S assume gnome desktop for the shits'n'giggles17:31
DocScrutinizer05msiism: don't forget the -s ! ;-P17:33
msiismmuep_: you mean, having to rebuild or not would depend on that?17:33
KatolaZgnome desktop won't work on ASCII17:33
msiismok, good to know17:34
muep_msiism: I mean if you start with the base installation, I would expect only a few removals to be necessary to switch inits17:34
DocScrutinizer05oooh, then there's the "system D doesn't HAVE TO BE the init system, it's sufficient when it's pid1, you can run whatever init system you want under systemd"17:34
muep_if you start with a setup that includes things that absolutely need systemd to be init, then the set of removals can be very large17:35
DocScrutinizer05which is perky cheating17:35
muep_DocScrutinizer05: I've not heard of that being seriously suggested anywhere17:35
msiismmuep_: ok, the installation of debian i have on another machine had nothing selected in tasksel17:35
msiismi'll try a few things there.17:36
muep_a similar-sounding but actually existing configuration would be to have a non-systemd pid1 + systemd-shim + systemd-logind, or something like that17:36
DocScrutinizer05muep_: have you heard any serious suggestions from debian folks to change _anything_ in standard systemd config of debian?17:37
muep_DocScrutinizer05: to me it looks like the default setup in debian is pretty much settled for now. but there are documented ways to get some other init, some of which involve using e.g. systemd-logind17:38
DocScrutinizer05all I heard so far was "there's the option, so stop whining and install it if you want. WE anyway are not interested"17:38
muep_AFAIK those options are realistic to someone who is not principled about not having systemd code loaded anywhere, but still wants or needs a different pid117:40
DocScrutinizer05IOW I seen a 12 dozen claims that debian allows to use alternative init systems other than systemd, but not a single of such claims went to the extend to backup statements by actual tests17:40
muep_I've heard of people using those alternative configurations17:42
DocScrutinizer05extent*17:42
muep_I'd not use that kind of config for gnome, but I'd expect them to work just fine for a more lean environment or for server workloads17:43
DocScrutinizer05in a nutshell: "init freedom" is maybe a tad short scope for devuan, meanwhile I'd think it's way more than just init freedom, it's general freedom of choice as provided by principles of modularity and stable IPC interfaces17:46
_stephen_just did an ascii rc install from dvd, it all went smoothly, with efi, except I had to manually use efibootmgr afterwards to make it bootable.17:51
* DocScrutinizer05 feels more reminded on arbitrary space saga plots now - the evil dictatorship empire against the confederation of free (sub)systems17:51
_stephen_There was only one thing I recall from the installer where I checked a box for "force efi"...17:51
_stephen_Ooh, good, ascii has the newer tmux so I can get pane border status titles...17:53
DocScrutinizer05msiism: also even if debian had compile time flags for 90% of packages to keep systemd dependencies out, the fact that the binaries are not built that way still holds true17:56
_stephen_Huh, this is working just fine.  Guess I dont have any excuses left, I should move my other systems up to ascii.17:57
DocScrutinizer05msiism: you covered that, but could use more emphasis on it17:57
msiismDocScrutinizer05: ok, will try to do that17:58
msiismmaybe there should also be a wiki page on FOD about this.17:58
NewGnuGuybluemarlin: How'd the migration to ASCII go?18:02
NewGnuGuyhiya: I've seen you frequently in other channels. Welcome to Devuan!18:04
bluemarlinNewGnuGuy: it went well except for a single issue with nginx and packages related to it. Somehow there was a mix of versions installed - some from ascii/main and ascii/security. Some from ascii-backports. This locked the packages in state where they couldn't upgrade. I temporarily disabled backports, removed them and installed again...18:05
KatolaZbluemarlin: use deb.devuan.org18:07
KatolaZavoid *.mirror.devuan.org18:07
bluemarlinKatolaZ: I think i used pkgmaster from the link shared by NewGnuGuy.... but honestly it might have been the mirror.18:09
hiyaNewGnuGuy, Thanks :D18:10
NewGnuGuyKatolaZ: I linked bluemarlin to https://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/migrate-to-ascii Looking at that page now, it could p18:12
KatolaZthat page already suggests to use deb.devuan.org, I guess?18:13
NewGnuGuydang, hit the enter key again :-(18:13
NewGnuGuyKatolaZ: I linked bluemarlin to https://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/migrate-to-ascii Looking at that page now, it could be more detailed about which of ascii, ascii-updates, ascii-security, and espesially ascii-backports you really need enabled.18:15
KatolaZNewGnuGuy: only the user knows what they have enabled in their sources.list18:17
KatolaZwe can't decide for the user18:17
NewGnuGuyIt probably shouldn't suggest using backports until after the migration and, even then, only if necessary.18:17
KatolaZwe should not suggest to use backports at all18:18
KatolaZif users want backports, they will find them :)18:18
NewGnuGuyTrue, I'll suggest that edit to chillfan when he comes back online.18:19
NewGnuGuybluemarlin: Thanks for helping us by reporting back your results. We'll use your feedback to improve our documentation.18:22
DocScrutinizer05I for one wouldn't even know IF i want backports. Maybe devuan should rely less on prior knowledge in users from debian18:22
msiismKatolaZ: so, it's not like you'd be able to have the backports repo enabled all the time (even when installing only packages from it that you really need) and be sure that this will go well?18:23
NewGnuGuybluemarlin: Enjoy using ASCII! :-)18:23
KatolaZmsiism: you can have backports enabled al the time18:23
msiismKatolaZ: oh, that will have to be canged on the new website then.18:24
KatolaZI have just said that on the official documentation we shouldn't suggest to use backports by default18:24
msiismright18:24
KatolaZwe must provide information on how to add backports18:24
KatolaZbut the users shoudl decide IMHO18:24
bluemarlinNewGnuGuy: thanks as well :)18:25
DocScrutinizer05I'd love info on *why* I need backports19:11
DocScrutinizer05*how* is pretty simple, compared to *why*19:11
msiismDocScrutinizer05: to get later versions of applications that did not make it into the current stable release.19:12
KatolaZDocScrutinizer05: one example for all: newer kernels19:14
unmyeh, what is wrong with sysvinit and network, always getting 2 or 1 wrong ip address from dhcp19:37
KatolaZunmy: how is sysvinit involved in dhcp?19:46
unmyon debian stretch when change to sysvinit then got same issue19:47
muep_do you have multiple dhcp clients set up to start at boot?19:50
unmynot directly with sysvinit probably but something is very wrong with service and with "isc-dhcp-client", removed it and installed "udhcpc" is good now19:50
unmymuep_, got only installed isc-client before19:52
muep_it is still possible to have one service just for the dhcp client and then e.g. ifupdown set up simultaneously19:53
msiismunmy: if you have an account on d1g, could you document the problem with dhcp there? (hardware and system configuration section) it may help fixing other problems.19:54
unmymuep_, ye, it could be like that19:54
muep_in a typical setup you would probably just use ifupdown and it then launches a dhcp client when configured to use dhcp19:55
unmymsiism, dont have a account but still not sure how could document it when I'm not sure what was going on19:56
unmymuep_, happening same in debian stretch and now with fresh install of devuan ASCII RC19:57
DocScrutinizer05I'd not be surprised at all on finding that systemd is entangled with dhcp19:57
unmyprobably some conflict with services19:58
muep_I'd first spend some time diagnosing it before switching services and suchlike19:59
DocScrutinizer05also I think you probably could accidentally start a dhcp daemon multiple times20:00
muep_like, count all the processes that could be dhcp clients or otherwise involving themselves with network config. take a copy of logs of those if possible and so on20:00
muep_maybe use tcpdump to capture your dhcp traffic20:00
muep_though might be better to capture at dhcp server end if possible20:01
armin++20:01
DocScrutinizer05doesn't matter much I guess where you filer for service/port dhcp20:02
msiismunmy: well, just give the info you can give. you don't need to provide a solution. i'm having another problem related to dhcp. maybe these are connected somehow (see https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2126).20:02
muep_it's just a bit tricky to arrange capturing to start on boot before dhcp client starts20:05
unmywhen I change in /etc/default/networking to CONFIGURE_INTERFACES=NO then I still getting that wrong IP out from dhcp poll20:06
KatolaZunmy: what you mean by "the wrong IP"?20:06
unmyinstalled again isc-dhcp-client and removed udhcpc and got again same20:06
unmyKatolaZ, mac address of this laptop got assigned ip 10.1.1.1020:07
KatolaZunmy: maybe there is something odd on the dhcp servr side?20:07
KatolaZit's the server that decides what IP to assign to a DHCP-OFFER20:07
unmybut I'm getting 10.1.1.203 somtimes when remove leases in /var/lib/dhcp then I'm getting 10.1.1.204 205 etc20:07
KatolaZunmy: just debug on the server side20:08
KatolaZif you want the same IP you shoul have a static bind on the dhcp server20:09
unmyKatolaZ, ye is binded to 10.1.1.1020:09
unmylike rest of my other divices, none of them got any single problem with dhcp server20:10
unmyKatolaZ, http://paste.debian.net/plainh/c1156e8c23:00
unmyodd is the dhcp isc client :\23:01
unmyhave no idea why sending DHCPDECLINE ...23:01

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