| freem | hi | 00:02 |
|---|---|---|
| freem | where could I ask about things about scripts depending on bash, and not dash? | 00:03 |
| nacelle | maybe #bash ? | 00:04 |
| freem | I'm speaking about making devuan essential packages not depending on bash, nacelle. | 00:05 |
| nacelle | now your question is a bit more clear | 00:05 |
| nacelle | that seems appropriate for here | 00:06 |
| nacelle | might as well just ask | 00:06 |
| freem | I mean, I had a stupid idea few weeks ago, and this was to build a really minimal system. Basically, I realized busybox can do a lot of things, and maybe other tools too, so I'd thought "hey, what about providing them as debian alternatives? this would only help portability right?" | 00:06 |
| msiism | freem: you mean poartability between shells? | 00:08 |
| freem | I tried to do it myself a bit, but, hacking shell scrtipts of thousands lines is not really easy | 00:08 |
| freem | msiism, yes, basically, it's that | 00:08 |
| msiism | is ash just a subset of bash? | 00:08 |
| freem | in a way, it is | 00:08 |
| nacelle | its more like bourne than bash | 00:09 |
| nacelle | and for the purpose of your question, it should be no | 00:09 |
| freem | but there are differences that are not minor | 00:09 |
| msiism | well, bash is a superset of the bourne shell, so. | 00:09 |
| msiism | freem: between bash and dash or bash and ash? | 00:10 |
| msiism | (load of ash there) | 00:10 |
| nacelle | could one reasonably expect bugs if dash where to replace bash in all of the init/etc. scripts? | 00:10 |
| nacelle | thats the question, and I believe the answer is yes, one could. | 00:10 |
| nacelle | so its a larger undertaking | 00:10 |
| freem | nacelle, so, as I think, there is no way atm to guarantee a correct system without bash. It's ok. | 00:11 |
| msiism | freem: maybe ask in #debian if there is rule on that | 00:11 |
| freem | Actually, I've only noticed the bash sheband in apt and minor packages | 00:11 |
| msiism | like that init scripts have to be dash-campatibale to be integrated | 00:11 |
| freem | msiism, my main problem about bash dependency is apt, honestly. It's the foundation of Debian | 00:12 |
| freem | I have not took enough time to check if the dependency is real though | 00:13 |
| msiism | well, the package "apt-get" doesn't dpend on bash, as far as i can see. | 00:14 |
| freem | tbh, i would like to build a system that only depends on busybox, and.... well, debian's essentials have more dependencies to bash than devuan | 00:14 |
| freem | you are true, but, when you inspect the files, you see that apt shebangs asks for bash | 00:15 |
| freem | it was a surprise for myself too | 00:15 |
| freem | tbh it's more for sport and system understanding than real work | 00:16 |
| freem | udev do include scripts depending on bash, unlike eudev, that's why devuan is more bash-free. | 00:17 |
| msiism | freem: is there a speical reason you're you're trying to do that? i mean bash is fat, but busybox is really base. | 00:17 |
| freem | msiism, for sport. | 00:17 |
| msiism | :D | 00:17 |
| freem | I mean, I think it's really fun to tinker with my system to make it more efficient | 00:18 |
| msiism | if you want something more efficent but with still a good deal of functionality, it's probably better to replace bash with ksh | 00:18 |
| freem | and, I hope some day I could build a system a decent coder could understand all the code lines | 00:19 |
| msiism | using busybox might cause other problems | 00:19 |
| freem | maybe, but, is it iso-functionnal with bash, in terms of scripts? | 00:19 |
| freem | yeah, but, that's where the fun lies | 00:20 |
| msiism | for example, it includes only minimalistic variants of the usual unix utilities. | 00:20 |
| freem | I wan't to learn more about my system | 00:20 |
| freem | this is true, and a desired goal | 00:21 |
| freem | whith a minimal toolset, you can reach better portability | 00:21 |
| msiism | so, if you replace gnu coreutils and other gnu tools with busybox, this might cause a whole lot of trouble. | 00:21 |
| freem | for example, you could then imagine using another kernel than linux | 00:21 |
| msiism | you can use bash in freebsd. | 00:22 |
| msiism | you can probably use it on any nix on which it compiles. | 00:22 |
| msiism | i mean, compiles | 00:23 |
| freem | I agree, this is only for fun and to allow some interested people to be able to maintain the whole system | 00:23 |
| freem | I understand if you think it's silly. After all, it is. | 00:23 |
| freem | but I still wanna do it. | 00:23 |
| msiism | i don't think it's silly. but i wouldn't do it. (i already have my pet projects :) ) | 00:23 |
| msiism | ok then, your aiming for ash compatibility not dash, right? | 00:24 |
| freem | I thought debian, or devuan, would be a good base, but, apt itself have some deps, sadly | 00:24 |
| freem | exact | 00:24 |
| freem | at least, ash, in a 1st step, dunno what POSIX says about the shell | 00:25 |
| msiism | freem: must be in the open groups base specifications. | 00:25 |
| freem | I'm almost certain a distro could be built with linux and busybox, which integrates an init system. I'm curiouss about the size it would take | 00:26 |
| KatolaZ | freem: ash should be POSIX-compliant AFAIK | 00:26 |
| freem | good news | 00:26 |
| msiism | freem: alpine linux uses busybox. | 00:26 |
| freem | yeah, but not for the init AFAIK | 00:27 |
| msiism | i don't remember | 00:27 |
| freem | they use OpenRC, and busybox seems to integrate the one I'm a fanboy of, namely, runit. | 00:27 |
| freem | nothing wrong here, for sure, but hey, runit is... well, I'm in love with it. | 00:28 |
| KatolaZ | freem: the rough plan is to include native support for runit and other inits in Devuan | 00:29 |
| KatolaZ | and for other process managers | 00:29 |
| freem | I won't force the world to take runit, but, it's simplicity, it's ease of use... | 00:29 |
| KatolaZ | like s6 or prep | 00:29 |
| freem | KatolaZ, well, then, I could try to give a hand despite my low skills. But, it would be really nice if devuan could reach some old debian's goals: multi-kernels | 00:30 |
| msiism | freem: i think that should be possible. only someone would have to maintain it. | 00:31 |
| freem | I mean, Debian used to have variants for other kernels, which where abandoned for... hum... reasons I do not know | 00:31 |
| msiism | freem: how about systemd as a reason? | 00:31 |
| freem | I do not wanna troll, today. | 00:32 |
| msiism | freem: you don't have to. | 00:32 |
| freem | anyway, I don't care. | 00:32 |
| freem | fact is, to close to standards basic tools are, the more probable you can achieve portability. | 00:33 |
| freem | apt is not portable since it depends on bash, which is essential mostly for that. It's sad, imo. | 00:34 |
| msiism | freem: but how do you know it really depends on bash? | 00:35 |
| freem | AFAIR aptitude C++ code is ugly, dpkg is hard as hell to read | 00:35 |
| Centurion_Dan | freem: you sure about that? It's not a dependency... | 00:35 |
| msiism | freem: have you tried removing bash and using apt? maybe dash does the job as well. | 00:35 |
| freem | msiism, I'm not really sure, it just use the shebang | 00:35 |
| Centurion_Dan | It seems to me it's written in C++ and python.. | 00:36 |
| freem | Centurion_Dan, well, shebangs said it, before hundred lines of code | 00:36 |
| msiism | Centurion_Dan: i was wondering about that as well | 00:36 |
| msiism | freem: can you name a file? | 00:36 |
| freem | I had, in the past, dependency problems with debian, because of my minimal system | 00:37 |
| freem | msiism, sure, let me ask my system | 00:37 |
| Centurion_Dan | less /usr/bin/apt shows apt is a compiled ELF file... where's the shell script?? | 00:37 |
| freem | give me few more minutes please, starting a VM I've installed thtough debootstrap | 00:39 |
| freem | but in the meantime, you can do a simple search | 00:40 |
| freem | hum, basically, Centurion_Dan, you only searched about a binary, that says nothing about what this one calls. You would need a grep for that | 00:41 |
| msiism | yes, i've done that | 00:44 |
| msiism | i've run "for f in $(find . -type f); do grep "bash" "$f"; done" over the extracted .deb package of apt. | 00:44 |
| msiism | it finds three bash shebangs | 00:45 |
| freem | an easy test for that is, "cd /tmp; mkdir foo; cd foo; apt-get source apt; grep '^#!/bin/bash'" | 00:45 |
| freem | that's an interesting result msiism. | 00:46 |
| freem | that would mean, that the packages I've found that depend on bash are only the 3 I've noticed myself, which are providing important services. | 00:47 |
| msiism | the files are ./usr/lib/dpkg/methods/apt/install, ./usr/lib/dpkg/methods/apt/update, ./usr/share/bug/apt/script | 00:47 |
| freem | hum. I've found them myself, but I've found others IIRC, 2 or 3 more maybe. | 00:48 |
| freem | may I ask you what kind of system you use? | 00:49 |
| msiism | here's loop i used to get the file name: http://paste.debian.net/1030723/ | 00:50 |
| msiism | freem: i use Devuan ASCII | 00:50 |
| freem | sure, but it means just nothing. My colleagues where surprised today, fooled by some appearances, they thought I was using ubuntu | 00:51 |
| msiism | well, apt is apt, is it not? | 00:51 |
| freem | I mean, do you aim to minimal system? Which DE are you using? etc. | 00:51 |
| freem | true, but, could you give me a dpkg --get-selections ? | 00:52 |
| freem | this only gives the list of installled packages on the system | 00:52 |
| msiism | i aim for minimalism, but not spartanism. ok, let me see | 00:53 |
| freem | ty | 00:53 |
| msiism | i do have quite some stuff instaleld i never use, though | 00:53 |
| freem | as every tinker :) | 00:53 |
| freem | I'm grateful for your help | 00:54 |
| msiism | here's the list of installed packages from my system: http://paste.debian.net/1030724/ | 00:56 |
| freem | there are not that many scripts depending on bash, listing them could help porting them, which in turm might help building more minimal systems, with less hard dependencies | 00:56 |
| freem | more thant 2k packages.... are you a coder? | 00:56 |
| freem | oh, lot of i386 packages, might divide the real number by almost 2 | 00:58 |
| msiism | freem: as for "coding", i'm doing stuff in bash, learing tcl (and beginning to find it awkward) and also look into C sometimes. | 00:59 |
| freem | anyway, with that, only 1 package contained the '^#/bin/bash' shebang? Thats surprising, I had at a few more, but yes, not that many | 00:59 |
| freem | it's enough to me to consider you as a coder | 01:00 |
| msiism | freem: i think you need to think about what you are searching for first. | 01:00 |
| msiism | freem: i call it scripting or programming, though ;) | 01:00 |
| freem | I had more data sunday, but, can't remember how I gathered them on my system | 01:00 |
| msiism | freem: the 3 files i found are apt of Debian's apt package | 01:00 |
| msiism | part of... | 01:01 |
| freem | yes, apt was the major one dependent package | 01:01 |
| freem | To reach my goal, I'll have to read the apt's file to check if they really need bash | 01:02 |
| msiism | if you want a minimal system, you should probably first draw up a package list. | 01:02 |
| freem | yeah, this, I've already done, partially | 01:03 |
| freem | fact is, installing busybox replaces a lot of packages, but needs some manual interventions ( like 'ln -s /bin/busybox /usr/local/bin/my_exec' | 01:04 |
| freem | this is something I'd like to change. Minor contribution, but.... | 01:04 |
| msiism | why do you need the link? | 01:05 |
| freem | the link would be a 1st step to providing system alternatives | 01:05 |
| freem | for example, if less is not installed but busybox is, you use less, where 'busybox less' would be more useful | 01:06 |
| freem | on the other hand, busybox is an alien | 01:06 |
| freem | using the 1st argument as commant name (instead of 0rd).... they may be the 1st one to do that. | 01:07 |
| freem | that approach is well suited to some of the uses I might have at work, and, it's also pretty interesting | 01:08 |
| msiism | freem: ok, i see. so, you'd have to alias everything to make it work like a usual linux system? | 01:09 |
| msiism | but then, if your shell was ash, wouldn't it do that automatically? | 01:10 |
| freem | export, and alias | 01:10 |
| freem | well, I'm not skilled enough to be exact, but it seems that, when using busybox ash, some commands are built-ins | 01:11 |
| freem | for reference about perfs https://chemnitzer.linux-tage.de/2010/vortraege/shortpaper/308_stali.pdf might be interesting to see the other point of view | 01:12 |
| freem | I don't say I agree. | 01:12 |
| msiism | freem: i think that using busybox only really makes sense when you really use just that, so ash would be your default shell and all the tools provided by busybox. | 01:13 |
| freem | tbh, I'd like a distro that is based on releases, but that would be hacker centric | 01:13 |
| msiism | ? | 01:13 |
| msiism | well, stali is hacker-centric for sure :) | 01:14 |
| freem | msiism, then, you forgot all the times you break your system and do not know how to use that damned busybox that do not even have manpages | 01:14 |
| freem | stali is a bit too much for me atm :) | 01:15 |
| msiism | freem: well, but wanting to use busybox, you've been asking for that. | 01:15 |
| freem | but I'd love a distro that says "hey, all my code is ready to be read", instead of "hey, my code is FOSS". | 01:15 |
| msiism | the thing is that busybox, as you well know, is not just a shell, but a whole suite of userspace tools (if that's the correct term). | 01:16 |
| freem | msiism, no, I discovered that when playing with debian, and had broken my system | 01:16 |
| freem | I was then defenseless with the debian's castrated busybox | 01:17 |
| msiism | freem: which parts of the code contained in devuan are not ready to be read (except non-free, i mean)? | 01:17 |
| freem | even recently, I've discovered that debian's doc about busybox is not synced with real features | 01:18 |
| msiism | freem: maybe because it ships an older version. | 01:18 |
| freem | msiism, I have not say it the way I thought it. I wanted to say, a system that all code would be eventually maintainable by a little team | 01:19 |
| freem | msiism, no, not only an old version, but flags are patched | 01:20 |
| freem | compilation flags are patched, but do not reflect in doc | 01:20 |
| freem | an example is cron (and it's example crontab), that do not support the @stuff, in practice, but in manpages they do | 01:21 |
| msiism | freem: ok, i don't know anything about that. | 01:22 |
| freem | no problem | 01:22 |
| msiism | just as a hint (if it's allowed in here...): if you want unpatched packages, have a look at slackware. | 01:22 |
| freem | those things are ones I"ve discovered by pratice, trying to build an embedded system | 01:22 |
| msiism | ok, i see | 01:23 |
| freem | slackware interests me a lot, but, I fear I'm not skilled enough | 01:23 |
| msiism | they have pretty decent docs... | 01:24 |
| msiism | freem: btw, you were asking about my desktop setup earlier. i use openbox. | 01:24 |
| freem | openbox is only a wm, so I assume you use your own set of tools with it? | 01:25 |
| msiism | well, the combination is my own, not the tools themselves. but that's what you meant, i guess. so, yes. | 01:26 |
| msiism | i've recently also found ctwm to be worth a try. | 01:26 |
| freem | ctwm? What are it's selling points? | 01:28 |
| msiism | 1. it look reasonably old-school-weird. | 01:28 |
| msiism | 2. it's based on twm. | 01:29 |
| freem | I mean, I'm using a tiling wm, so I don't care about appearance, but i do care about ease of use | 01:29 |
| msiism | 3. it does have some unique concepts of how window resizinf i handled (but maybe they are from twm, i don't know) | 01:30 |
| freem | based on twm, the software? This include the built-in config? | 01:30 |
| msiism | yes, twm, the wm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twm). as for the config, i don't know. probably parts of it. | 01:31 |
| * msiism thinks twm is actually short for "the window manager" | 01:32 | |
| freem | I think I remember another wm named twm that stands for tiling window manager, with fully compiled in config | 01:35 |
| freem | I know C, C++ and more, but, to be honest, hacking code to change setup is too much effort for me. Also, I hate macros. | 01:36 |
| msiism | freem: suckless.org people have a tiling wm, iirc. | 01:36 |
| freem | msiism, yes, but,as I said, I hate macros, and suckless guys write code that sucks more than needed on that point of view | 01:37 |
| freem | I have the luck at work to be the only one who know about how macros can help. I hide their mechanics as much as possible, because it's a that huge pain to debug code that include macros | 01:39 |
| msiism | i see. don't have any experience in that area, however. | 01:42 |
| freem | back to the subject, is devuan aiming at supporting other kernels or systems different than GNU? | 01:42 |
| freem | msiism, you lucky guy | 01:42 |
| freem | powerful tools tend to be misused | 01:43 |
| msiism | freem: it's not blocking any efforts int hat direction. | 01:43 |
| freem | macros and templates are powerful. | 01:43 |
| freem | not enough manpower is the only condition then? | 01:44 |
| msiism | possibilities of Devuan/Hurd and Devuan/kFreeBSD have been discussed at the dev meeting occasionally. | 01:44 |
| freem | do you know anything about that? | 01:44 |
| msiism | afaik, there a open doors there if anyone wants to walk in. | 01:44 |
| freem | maybe an irc chan, a mailing list or a wiki to try? | 01:46 |
| msiism | this might interest you: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20180622.210705.91ccb8e8.en.html | 01:46 |
| msiism | freem: well, devuan has all that already. | 01:46 |
| freem | true, but, it's not really advertised | 01:48 |
| msiism | freem: paragraph 6 in the e-mail linked above, btw. | 01:48 |
| freem | I know about IRC and other stuff because I more than 20 years old... | 01:48 |
| msiism | :D | 01:49 |
| freem | I'm still reading it | 01:49 |
| freem | a funny passage is | 01:49 |
| freem | the most important thing is to not repeat the same error that | 01:49 |
| freem | Debian does: to not rule out manuals licensed with invariant sections. | 01:49 |
| freem | it's not debian that did this, but FSF! | 01:49 |
| msiism | you need to remove the second "not", i think | 01:50 |
| msiism | freem: how do you mean? | 01:50 |
| freem | It's FSF that is against DFSG rules by using a closed licence on doc | 01:51 |
| msiism | well, they use CC or GFDL, afaik. | 01:52 |
| freem | DFSG says that that all free softwares should be free as in free beer, free as in free speech, and fully modifiable AFAIR | 01:52 |
| freem | GFDL is *not* fully modifiable, and thus, not free IIRC | 01:53 |
| msiism | well, generally, it's a pain to read. | 01:54 |
| freem | exact. | 01:54 |
| freem | f we tolerate that manuals can have SOME invariant | 01:54 |
| freem | sections, especially for sections covering ethical aspects rather than | 01:54 |
| freem | technical ones | 01:54 |
| freem | I just can't agree with that | 01:54 |
| freem | ethical? What is that? | 01:54 |
| msiism | well, that's GNU. they're on mission and want to communicate that. | 01:55 |
| freem | yeah, but I'm an open source follower, not an FSF one? | 01:55 |
| msiism | but i think that should not hold devuan back from including valuable documentation. | 01:55 |
| msiism | i can live with some invariant section if the docs are decent | 01:56 |
| freem | Debian do include doc that does not fit the rules. Just, not by default. | 01:56 |
| msiism | that might be one reason why it's missing the findutils documentation (i'll have to find that out) | 01:57 |
| freem | FSF forbid using non-free softwares while they provided non-free licences. Debian only integrates real FOSS stuff in main repo, but can provide non-free stuff in non-free repos, and that's the reason FSF does not recommend using it | 01:58 |
| freem | heh | 01:58 |
| freem | seriously, the info command is so hard to use that having it installed won't do you any good. | 01:58 |
| freem | I tried it. | 01:59 |
| msiism | freem: "off the record": i never use info. ;) but others might do. | 01:59 |
| freem | I pity them | 01:59 |
| freem | imo, it's a tool made just to let the world know that the FSF did something else than GCC and GDB. | 02:00 |
| freem | and as GCC and Bash, it's slow, hard to use. | 02:01 |
| Centurion_Dan | is it GNU and FSF bashing day?? | 02:02 |
| freem | nope | 02:02 |
| freem | it's just my opinion | 02:02 |
| msiism | i actually like Bash quite a lot, though my scripts would probably run in ksh as well. | 02:02 |
| freem | but, I'm ok to change it, if someone can provide arguments. | 02:02 |
| Centurion_Dan | info would probably be half reasonable if it's info pages where up to date and linked properly... but it fails to do that, and it's usage is not well documented... | 02:04 |
| msiism | and then was info developed? | 02:04 |
| freem | msiism, the fact I prefer zsh over bash should never imply me writing low level scripts only for zsh | 02:04 |
| msiism | s then/when | 02:05 |
| Centurion_Dan | man pages have proven to be better both to maintain and use the info. | 02:05 |
| freem | Centurion_Dan, did you tries to use it? You ask info on something, and it replies about it's own doc! | 02:05 |
| freem | I'll need a tutorial on info, when on man I never need one | 02:06 |
| Centurion_Dan | heh, I get "command not installed" in response to info... | 02:06 |
| Centurion_Dan | it's not even installed by default. | 02:06 |
| freem | yes, info is not installed by default, especially on minimal systems | 02:06 |
| freem | also, when you install it, it rarely contains more than a copy of manpages | 02:07 |
| Centurion_Dan | I haven't used info in years anyway... | 02:07 |
| msiism | i have it on my system | 02:07 |
| freem | my opinion: it's a piece of crap. Hard to use, no real content, only non-free content.... to bin, is the destination. | 02:07 |
| msiism | but "bin" is not the trash bin in unix... | 02:08 |
| freem | meh | 02:08 |
| msiism | /usr/bin/info :) | 02:08 |
| Centurion_Dan | freem: fair enough... I wouldn't go that far... I'd say it' | 02:08 |
| freem | I'm still open, if someone can provide me any good reason to install info-related stuff.... | 02:09 |
| freem | except that the fact it uses emacs-like keyboards shortcuts, of course. | 02:09 |
| Centurion_Dan | is obsoleted largely by html and browsers, and on that score I'm pleased many packages have split out their documentation so it can be installed without installing the package... | 02:09 |
| msiism | freem: it might have more than man pages in some situations. sometimes man pages will state that more detailed info is to be found in an info page. | 02:10 |
| Centurion_Dan | freem: I've never bothered to use emacs either... I'm a vim guy.. | 02:10 |
| freem | msiism, and so often, you have to guess the exact command to reach that, and too often it fails with a default page that let you helpless. | 02:11 |
| freem | Centurion_Dan, same here. At least, you can use any POSIX OS with vi. | 02:11 |
| msiism | freem: probably. i'm not trying to defent it. | 02:11 |
| msiism | defend... | 02:12 |
| freem | msiism, it's sad. I'll be happy to learn the advantages of that tool. It must have some, after all, even if I do not like it. | 02:12 |
| msiism | freem: not every tool is for everyone. | 02:13 |
| freem | msiism, true enough. But, I would happy to meet someone that use info. Really. | 02:14 |
| Centurion_Dan | it would be ok if it had a decent index and every package provided good quality info pages... but that's not been the case in a long time, so it's not "very useful" as the Fat Controller would say... | 02:14 |
| Centurion_Dan | ;-0 | 02:14 |
| freem | but, they could generate such from manpages, since manpages actually does that from groff | 02:15 |
| freem | also, the only stuff I can find on info and not on manpages are stuff that can't be modified.... and thus, non-free. | 02:16 |
| freem | like gdb doc. | 02:16 |
| msiism | freem: maybe you should tyr to discuss that in #gnu :) | 02:17 |
| freem | why? It's not a discussion here, I just say facts that fit's debian original point of view | 02:19 |
| freem | DFSG and FSF have a different point of view. It's ok for me. | 02:19 |
| freem | I should say, that fit's my understanding of the DFSG the 1st time I've read them | 02:21 |
| freem | s/should say/sould have said/g | 02:21 |
| msiism | i should probably also give them a re-read sometime soon | 02:22 |
| freem | same here, maybe they changed stuff or I had bad interpretations | 02:23 |
| freem | I wonder, is devuan keeping on the DFSG ? | 02:23 |
| Centurion_Dan | freem: I'm sitting on the fence on this one... on the one hand it would be advantageous to be able to have invariant information - to preserve the integrity of the information shared and to give context... on the other hand it seems 2 faced to require all software to be free and open and yet want to protect parts of the documentation associated - especially if what is supposed to be protected as "invariant" is actually political and | 02:24 |
| Centurion_Dan | bbl | 02:25 |
| freem | bbl? | 02:25 |
| msiism | is there a helper bot for chatspeak in here? | 02:26 |
| freem | anyway, we can have history through certified DVCS, why should invariants be added? | 02:26 |
| freem | exept for politics, I mean | 02:26 |
| msiism | i think that's why they are added. though there may be other reasons, too. | 02:27 |
| Xenguy | Be back later, surely | 02:27 |
| msiism | the GFDL says things about that. | 02:27 |
| freem | yeah, it does says that documentation should keep history. IIRC. | 02:28 |
| * Xenguy doesn't understand the 'invariant' issue... | 02:28 | |
| msiism | Xenguy: you can define so-called invariant sections when you license your docs with GFDL | 02:29 |
| Xenguy | Exceptions? | 02:29 |
| freem | Xenguy, if something is invariant, then it's not modifiable, and so, it's not respecting the 4 liberties of FOSS. | 02:29 |
| Xenguy | huh | 02:29 |
| Xenguy | interesting | 02:29 |
| Xenguy | read-only | 02:30 |
| msiism | fwiw: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/fdl-1.3.en.html | 02:31 |
| freem | and the GFDL, a FSF licence for doc, do provides features that gives invariants on said document, no restriction on parts. So, a source code on GFDL would be free for them, but you would not have the right to change it | 02:31 |
| freem | so, it's a closed source licence. | 02:31 |
| freem | hum, a non-free licence* I meant | 02:32 |
| msiism | freem: that's not true. | 02:32 |
| freem | what is not true? | 02:33 |
| msiism | also FSF/GNU do recommend GPL for source code, even in GFDL-licensed docs. | 02:33 |
| msiism | and there is no such thing as invariant sections in gpl, iirc. | 02:34 |
| msiism | a gfdl-licensed document will allow you to change any part of it, except invariant sections. | 02:35 |
| freem | they recommend, which means, they do not forbid the use of GFDL for code, right? | 02:35 |
| freem | and that's the problem | 02:35 |
| freem | exept for invariant sections, event if they are desync | 02:36 |
| freem | it has been made, IIRC, for a noble goal, to remind contributors | 02:36 |
| msiism | invariant sections have to be "secondary sections" by definition, meaning not an integral part of the wokr content-wise. | 02:37 |
| freem | but intellectual property was also made with noble goals | 02:37 |
| msiism | i doubt that | 02:38 |
| freem | what is a secondary section? | 02:38 |
| msiism | freem: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/fdl-1.3.en.html | 02:40 |
| freem | nice info page. Hard to link to the intersting section. Do you have some word I could search for? | 02:41 |
| msiism | "secondary section" | 02:43 |
| msiism | "invariant section" | 02:43 |
| freem | heh, so, yes, invariant sections describe non free restrictions | 02:44 |
| msiism | sure, they do. | 02:44 |
| freem | The relationship could be a matter of historical connection with the subject or with related matters, or of legal, commercial, philosophical, ethical or political position regarding them. | 02:44 |
| freem | in other words, one could say a document under said licence could not be used by communists, for example. | 02:45 |
| freem | freedom should be for everyone, only it's bad use should be restricted | 02:46 |
| msiism | freem: you need to discuss that with rms. | 02:46 |
| freem | and bad should be defined by countries, I guess | 02:46 |
| freem | I never had the chance to meet him | 02:47 |
| freem | irc and mailing lists are the only way for me to contact people with decent knowledge about computers tbh | 02:48 |
| msiism | freem: hold on, i got sth for you | 02:52 |
| freem | sth? | 02:53 |
| msiism | something | 02:53 |
| freem | meh | 02:53 |
| freem | hard time to ind the keywords anew? | 02:56 |
| msiism | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFMMXRoSxnA&t=6m43s | 02:57 |
| msiism | :D | 02:57 |
| msiism | ok, i gotta go. | 02:58 |
| freem | I've got to go too. Good night | 03:17 |
| DeeEff | Hey all, got a question about NVIDIA drivers, anyone here able to assist? | 05:28 |
| DeeEff | Basically my problem is that when I call `glxinfo | grep -i opengl` it says my vendor is VMWare (this is a physical machine) and that it's using Mesa for libGL | 05:28 |
| DeeEff | I want it to use the proprietary nvidia drivers but don't know what I'm diong wrong. | 05:28 |
| DeeEff | So far it seems I'm using the proprietary drivers with X, just not with opengl | 05:28 |
| gnarface | DeeEff: on ascii? the default is to use the open source "nouveau" driver | 05:51 |
| gnarface | i'm not sure, but even if you install the nvidia official closed-source binary driver you may have to manually blacklist nouveau to keep it from loading first | 05:52 |
| gnarface | make sure to use the drivers from the non-free section of the repo though | 05:52 |
| DeeEff | I'm on ceres, but that's not important. The problem isn't nouveau, since I've already uninstalled that. | 05:52 |
| gnarface | (the nvidia installer shell script from nvidia.com causes additional problems of it's own) | 05:52 |
| gnarface | hmmm. run this: dpkg -l |grep nvidia -i | 05:53 |
| DeeEff | Right now my issue is the libGL provider, which is Mesa, whereas I want it to dispatch to always use my GLX provider, Nvidia | 05:53 |
| gnarface | yea, maybe a broken symlink to libGL.so | 05:53 |
| gnarface | did you use the packages in the repo, or did you use the shell script from nvidia.com? | 05:53 |
| gnarface | like i said, the shell script has known problems, but the nvidia packages in ceres don't have a spotless record ither | 05:54 |
| gnarface | *either | 05:54 |
| DeeEff | https://paste.debian.net/plain/1030740 | 05:55 |
| DeeEff | As far as I can tell this is correct | 05:55 |
| DeeEff | I think part of the confusion is that mesa can sometimes dispatch to GLX if you have DRI configured | 05:55 |
| DeeEff | but I have no idea how one would set that up | 05:55 |
| gnarface | hmmm | 05:55 |
| gnarface | apt-get install libgl1-nvidia-glx:amd64 libgl1-nvidia-glx:i386 | 05:56 |
| gnarface | what does this do?^ | 05:56 |
| DeeEff | breaks everything | 05:56 |
| DeeEff | I have tried that | 05:56 |
| gnarface | hmmm | 05:56 |
| DeeEff | those require the nonglvnd drivers, which don't seem to work at all so all my libgl stuff breaks | 05:57 |
| gnarface | i just ran into this yesterday, and that's what fixed it for me :( | 05:57 |
| gnarface | either they broke it worse today or it's a hardware difference i'm guessing | 05:57 |
| gnarface | hmmm | 05:57 |
| DeeEff | probably a hardware difference. I'm running a 650Ti | 05:57 |
| gnarface | nope, same hardware | 05:57 |
| gnarface | heh | 05:57 |
| gnarface | they must be breaking stuff back there | 05:59 |
| gnarface | DeeEff: i gotta go, but here, compare it to my package list, i'll be back: http://paste.debian.net/1030741/ | 06:00 |
| DeeEff | thanks | 06:00 |
| gnarface | (maybe if you can get yours to match this it'll work ) | 06:00 |
| bozonius | installing devuan ascii on my test box, real hardware this time. Had some challenges getting networking to work, but that's a separate issue having to do with my peculiar environment, using virtual fw appliances, etc. Got that working. | 07:40 |
| bozonius | Only issue actually, in the end, was the package selection step. Again, would not let me pick different desktops (didn't we talk about this already?). I went with default for the desktop, but I did select command line productivity and it allowed that. | 07:41 |
| bozonius | so, overall, not too bad. I realize, again, that this sort of feedback would have been more useful (maybe) during the testing phase for ascii. | 07:42 |
| bozonius | I hope to participate in testing the next version though. I am wondering if anything could be done about the rather clumsy "expert" graphical install | 07:42 |
| bozonius | seems like it goes beyond mere "expert" and more like a PhD is required in all things *nix* | 07:43 |
| bozonius | (including bugs and the like) | 07:43 |
| bozonius | Personally, I do not have every bug that has ever been listed at sourceforge memorized. | 07:44 |
| bozonius | But there are probably people who do. | 07:44 |
| KatolaZ | bozonius: expert install is what it says :D | 07:44 |
| bozonius | install is finishing up, looking forward to seeing this thing fly | 07:44 |
| bozonius | It should be renamed "PhD" and a new level should be added for those who want more flexibility, but not the buggy install experience | 07:46 |
| bozonius | buggy/outdated | 07:46 |
| bozonius | just my opinion, KatolaZ | 07:46 |
| KatolaZ | which bugs are you referring to? | 07:46 |
| KatolaZ | please report them | 07:46 |
| bozonius | I'm guessing we suffer with whatever comes down from Debian? | 07:46 |
| bozonius | well, like selecting desktops, as I said... | 07:47 |
| KatolaZ | that is something I have never seen TBH | 07:47 |
| KatolaZ | but we should check better maybe | 07:47 |
| bozonius | I've had that problem on VM installs and now on Real HW | 07:47 |
| KatolaZ | I remember it allows you to choose as many desktops as you like | 07:47 |
| KatolaZ | ok | 07:47 |
| KatolaZ | please file a bug report | 07:48 |
| bozonius | yes, until the install tells you it can't do it or something | 07:48 |
| KatolaZ | or this will fall into oblivion | 07:48 |
| bozonius | (I forget what it said, but it did not allow it) | 07:48 |
| KatolaZ | bozonius: are you using a CDROM? | 07:48 |
| bozonius | no, thumb drive | 07:48 |
| KatolaZ | -_- | 07:48 |
| bozonius | what! | 07:48 |
| KatolaZ | I mean, is that a CD install image? | 07:48 |
| bozonius | yes | 07:48 |
| KatolaZ | answer is easy: you don't have all the desktops in the first CD | 07:49 |
| KatolaZ | that's why it can't install them | 07:49 |
| bozonius | it is the netinstall image | 07:49 |
| KatolaZ | oh wait | 07:49 |
| bozonius | yeah... | 07:49 |
| KatolaZ | and then you use a network repo? | 07:49 |
| bozonius | I use whatever repo(s) the netinstall uses, I guess... | 07:50 |
| KatolaZ | ok | 07:50 |
| bozonius | just fyi, came up beautifully, no problems | 07:50 |
| KatolaZ | please file a bug report | 07:50 |
| bozonius | now for the fun part... | 07:50 |
| bozonius | yeah... bug report. I'll check first to see if someone has already reported it. I can't believe I am the only one (but then again LOL) | 07:51 |
| buZz | about what? | 07:51 |
| buZz | who still uses sourceforge? :O | 07:51 |
| bozonius | buZz: I meant that sarcastically | 07:52 |
| bozonius | I'm just saying that the install seems to be a minefield of "issues" | 07:52 |
| buZz | > I went with default for the desktop, but I did select command line productivity and it allowed that. | 07:53 |
| buZz | bozonius: lol , ok | 07:53 |
| buZz | its just the same installer thats been used on debian for .. 10 years? | 07:53 |
| bozonius | and to do an expert install you really need to be one of those guys with thick coke-bottle glasses, wearing a white shirt with the pen protector, who has memorized every bug ever filed against the system... | 07:53 |
| gnarface | hey now let's not get hateful | 07:53 |
| bozonius | well, it's tired and worn out | 07:53 |
| bozonius | sorry | 07:53 |
| buZz | maybe your describing yourself? :) | 07:53 |
| bozonius | actually, my own glasses ARE getting kinda thick the last few years... and I still can't see everything. | 07:54 |
| gnarface | the Debian installer was never known for being user-friendly, even after they revamped it to be more user friendly. it really used to be much worse. | 07:54 |
| bozonius | I seem to recall trying to install debian "back in the day" | 07:55 |
| gnarface | the devuan installer preserves the expected behavior quite faithfully | 07:55 |
| gnarface | i suspect that most of the awkwardness hasn't been fixed because it's the type of thing that stops bothering you after the first try | 07:55 |
| bozonius | and maybe why I never ended up using it. Ubuntu install was huge improvement | 07:55 |
| gnarface | i did not succeed with the earlier Debian install, either | 07:56 |
| gnarface | don't feel bad | 07:56 |
| bozonius | ok | 07:56 |
| bozonius | but I am happy now that I have ascii installed on a test box I can really start playing with. | 07:56 |
| buZz | \o/ | 07:56 |
| bozonius | I want to try all sorts of awful things | 07:57 |
| bozonius | the kind of stuff that will have me visiting you often, probably | 07:57 |
| gnarface | once you have network up and running you should be able to connect to the network repo and test desktop environments with impunity | 07:57 |
| KatolaZ | the problem is that you can't make everybody happy :) | 07:57 |
| KatolaZ | or, not in a finite amount of time | 07:57 |
| bozonius | I know you all can't get enough of my IRC chat | 07:57 |
| bozonius | with limited resources too, KatolaZ | 07:57 |
| bozonius | I think you guys have done a great job, even with some problems | 07:58 |
| bozonius | you are Linux SuperHeroes | 07:58 |
| KatolaZ | bozonius: the thing is that people should normally use the standard install | 07:58 |
| KatolaZ | unless they need the expert install | 07:58 |
| bozonius | because you have saved the world from the evil ONE | 07:58 |
| buZz | systemd? | 07:58 |
| bozonius | (I needed the expert install for what I wanted to do) | 07:59 |
| KatolaZ | and if they need it, well, they are supposed to know how to use it | 07:59 |
| KatolaZ | :) | 07:59 |
| bozonius | buZz!!!! How dare you utter that word... | 07:59 |
| buZz | i dare a lot of stuff :P | 07:59 |
| KatolaZ | systemd | 07:59 |
| KatolaZ | :P | 07:59 |
| buZz | i think daring to do stuff is what got us here in the first place | 07:59 |
| KatolaZ | there is nothing sacre in any word ;) | 07:59 |
| bozonius | especially not THAT one! | 08:00 |
| KatolaZ | s/sacre/sacred | 08:00 |
| KatolaZ | :D | 08:00 |
| KatolaZ | but seriously, bozonius please report any bug you find | 08:01 |
| bozonius | ok guys I'll be back later with updates on my adventures in Devuan Ascii... I have an early morning meeting (PT here) and need to go to bed | 08:01 |
| bozonius | KatolaZ I will | 08:01 |
| KatolaZ | thanks | 08:01 |
| buZz | PT? portugal? | 08:01 |
| bozonius | sorry Pacific Time | 08:02 |
| buZz | thats not a timezone | 08:02 |
| bozonius | it's 11pm local time here | 08:02 |
| bozonius | "PT" is used frequently for Pacific Time | 08:02 |
| buZz | PST its called , or PDT in summer | 08:02 |
| bozonius | where are you | 08:02 |
| buZz | CEST | 08:02 |
| bozonius | yes, PST or PDT, but that is only if I can remember which it is at that moment... | 08:03 |
| syco_ | GMT+xyz | 08:03 |
| bozonius | ok PDT here | 08:03 |
| bozonius | GMT-8 I believe | 08:03 |
| buZz | thats my 'UE' timezone on my clock :) , its indeed GMT-8 | 08:04 |
| buZz | https://i.imgur.com/fAos82y.jpg <- my clock | 08:05 |
| bozonius | UE? | 08:05 |
| buZz | US east | 08:05 |
| buZz | eh, west, derp | 08:05 |
| bozonius | US west | 08:05 |
| bozonius | yeah | 08:05 |
| buZz | the first after 'U' is you | 08:05 |
| bozonius | unbelievable. A stock ticker... | 08:06 |
| bozonius | LOL | 08:06 |
| syco_ | "U" for universal or for "US" ? :p | 08:06 |
| buZz | syco_: what do you think ;) | 08:06 |
| syco_ | GMT :p | 08:06 |
| buZz | bozonius: nah just the topright number is the BTC price | 08:06 |
| bozonius | ok, night all. I'll be back later... probably tomorrow evening | 08:07 |
| buZz | sleep tight | 08:08 |
| Gup | hey guys, is VLC meant to be available in ascii? vlc : Depends: vlc-plugin-base (= 3.0.2-0+deb9u1) but it is not going to be installed | 10:20 |
| Gup | noticed this on my upgrades and clean installs | 10:22 |
| KatolaZ | Gup: which repos are you using? | 10:25 |
| KatolaZ | you should use deb.devuan.org | 10:25 |
| Gup | auto.mirror.devuan.org | 10:26 |
| Gup | i will try with deb. | 10:26 |
| KatolaZ | Gup: and you should also read the ASCII release notes ;) | 10:27 |
| Gup | yeah thats working now, thanks KatolaZ | 10:29 |
| Gup | I'll have browse of those release notes ;) | 10:29 |
| KatolaZ | ;) | 10:31 |
| Gup | seems i've used a combination of deb.mirror. and gb.mirror. across my different installs | 10:35 |
| Gup | it must be really easy to select, or even auto detected during install? | 10:36 |
| Gup | should these options really be removed from the installer if thy are deprecated? | 10:36 |
| Gup | to add to the confusion the upgrade guide linked to from the release notes uses pkgmaster.devuan.org ;) | 10:40 |
| KatolaZ | Gup: that needs to be amended | 10:42 |
| KatolaZ | but pkgmaster has the same stuff as deb.devuan.org | 10:42 |
| KatolaZ | (it's actually the opposite, but equality is in practice a symmetric relation :P) | 10:42 |
| filipdevuan | hey im quite confused... last year i bought typical win10 laptop with 4gb ram i5 intel 7th gen and optimus card intel hd 500 and nvidia geforce 940mx and i like using devuan but this laptop is very confusing... how am i supposed to use 940mx on linux without drivers... | 12:23 |
| jaromil | is ponchale around sometimes? I'm curious about astian.org would love to support but no link to downloads or source is there so perhaps a bit early to ask. | 13:28 |
| jaromil | thanks for noticing golinux | 13:28 |
| jaromil | none of these links lead to any software, let alone free software https://www.astian.org/projects I assume is WIP and look forward to be noticed when there is something to try for us to assess astian | 13:30 |
| FlibberTGibbet | their site does look a little light | 13:30 |
| jaromil | I don't mind considering non-native english speaking, but the software should be there. I think they are transitioning from a previous page | 13:31 |
| jaromil | i think this is a start https://gitlab.com/sauce-desktop | 13:33 |
| jaromil | and this the CMS mentioned https://www.cszcms.com/ | 13:34 |
| FlibberTGibbet | was about to check for public repos but there you go. looks like very early stages | 13:34 |
| jaromil | I'd be curious to try an ISO of all of it put together into a distro, until then we can hardly endorse them | 13:34 |
| jaromil | since people expect to have a distro behind the link | 13:34 |
| FlibberTGibbet | wonder how complete that 'astian os' is? looks like it at least has their DE and app builder included | 13:35 |
| FlibberTGibbet | hmm. there's an 'astian os' on sourceforge: https://sourceforge.net/projects/astian-os/ | 13:36 |
| FlibberTGibbet | but that says arch-based where their site says ubuntu | 13:37 |
| jaromil | i think they plan to settle on devuan now | 13:37 |
| FlibberTGibbet | that would be good | 13:37 |
| FlibberTGibbet | call me old-fashioned but i reckon they'd do better developing their DE or whatever than trying to build a distro just to hold it... | 13:39 |
| syco_ | build on kde with sauce desktop ? kaiser-sauce ? | 13:39 |
| * syco_ ducks | 13:39 | |
| FlibberTGibbet | oof :) | 13:40 |
| jaromil | bwahahaha | 13:41 |
| jaromil | i think they have a plan for a webapps based firefoxOS of sorts, so the desktop won't need much more than a login and a browser full screen | 13:42 |
| jaromil | wild guessing | 13:42 |
| FlibberTGibbet | nice if it works, i guess | 13:45 |
| syco_ | has been done 20 years ago within Netscape Navigator .. | 13:56 |
| KatolaZ | yeah, what can possibly go wrong? (TM) :D | 13:57 |
| syco_ | i did some kind of afterstep clone that would only work with netscape .. but it did :p | 13:59 |
| FlibberTGibbet | about time we had an os that concentrated on gopher apps... | 13:59 |
| jaromil | agree on the gopher apps | 13:59 |
| jaromil | syco_: being an afterstep fanboy i may have seen your experiments sometimes in the past | 14:00 |
| FlibberTGibbet | i love gopher. rediscovered it recently on sdf.org and now have my own server for notes at home | 14:00 |
| KatolaZ | FlibberTGibbet: I guess by "gopher" you mean the protocol on port 70, right? | 14:00 |
| jaromil | bitreich also | 14:00 |
| FlibberTGibbet | yes KatolaZ | 14:00 |
| jaromil | http://bitreich.org/ | 14:00 |
| KatolaZ | great | 14:00 |
| KatolaZ | I wanted to have a gopher app to browse package info | 14:00 |
| FlibberTGibbet | gopher plus clippy on that bitreich site :D | 14:01 |
| KatolaZ | :) | 14:01 |
| KatolaZ | won't be difficult, indeed | 14:01 |
| jaromil | :^D | 14:01 |
| FlibberTGibbet | it's possible to write gopher apps quite simply. unless you're me of course -- don't think there's an idiot-proof python library for it :) | 14:01 |
| jaromil | I like what I'm reading :^D | 14:01 |
| KatolaZ | FlibberTGibbet: you need just a shell script :) | 14:01 |
| FlibberTGibbet | KatolaZ: more my speed, that | 14:02 |
| FlibberTGibbet | gopher's only problem is a lack of decent javascript frameworks. oh, wait... | 14:02 |
| KatolaZ | that's actually a feature :D | 14:02 |
| syco_ | nodejs | 14:02 |
| FlibberTGibbet | plus it needs css-for-ncurses :) | 14:03 |
| KatolaZ | wodejs | 14:03 |
| FlibberTGibbet | lol | 14:03 |
| KatolaZ | FlibberTGibbet: reading your nick instantly gets be back to Dante | 14:04 |
| KatolaZ | every single time :D | 14:04 |
| KatolaZ | ("gibbetto feci a me de le mie case...") | 14:05 |
| KatolaZ | I know "gibbet" has gone more towards "public scorn" nowadays | 14:06 |
| KatolaZ | but I really see myself again in highschool every time I real FlibberTGibbet :D | 14:06 |
| KatolaZ | strange machine we have between our ears... | 14:07 |
| FlibberTGibbet | really? gosh. can think of worse writers to be remind people of than Dante. :) | 14:08 |
| KatolaZ | :D | 14:08 |
| FlibberTGibbet | would be depressing if i reminded you of Dan Brown's Inferno instead! | 14:08 |
| KatolaZ | it's not your fault | 14:08 |
| KatolaZ | I think Dan Brown would have actually been worse maybe.... | 14:09 |
| FlibberTGibbet | a 'Flibbertegibbet' is a gossip and general speaker of inconsequential nonsense. So it was a very carefully picked nick indeed... | 14:09 |
| KatolaZ | yeah I know | 14:09 |
| KatolaZ | :D | 14:09 |
| KatolaZ | I wouldn't be surprised if it originally came from French | 14:10 |
| FlibberTGibbet | quite possibly | 14:10 |
| syco_ | nope | 14:10 |
| syco_ | je le saurais ;p | 14:10 |
| KatolaZ | I guess gibet is still used in French with the same meaning as in late latin/vulgar | 14:11 |
| FlibberTGibbet | apparently also associated with legends about Wayland's Smithy, which isn't far from here. | 14:11 |
| syco_ | gibet is where you hang people | 14:11 |
| FlibberTGibbet | yup | 14:11 |
| KatolaZ | I know syco_ | 14:11 |
| syco_ | a tree ar a special construct | 14:11 |
| KatolaZ | it's gallows | 14:11 |
| FlibberTGibbet | you get places over here called 'heavitree' which used to be spelled 'heavy tree' after the knotty end of local law enforcement. grim stuff... | 14:12 |
| KatolaZ | :D | 14:12 |
| KatolaZ | always benn fascinated about how languages changes and evolves over time | 14:13 |
| KatolaZ | s/ges/ge | 14:13 |
| FlibberTGibbet | it's a great subject | 14:13 |
| syco_ | especially nowadays | 14:13 |
| FlibberTGibbet | languages are changing all the time but also many smaller ones are vanishing :( | 14:14 |
| syco_ | yep | 14:14 |
| KatolaZ | bbl | 14:14 |
| KatolaZ | o/ | 14:14 |
| FlibberTGibbet | bye for now KatolaZ | 14:14 |
| KatolaZ | I am happy to know that there are other gopher fans around | 14:14 |
| KatolaZ | :) | 14:14 |
| KatolaZ | we should have a Devuan gopherhole maybe | 14:14 |
| FlibberTGibbet | great idea! | 14:14 |
| KatolaZ | jaromil, parazyd ^^ ;) | 14:14 |
| FlibberTGibbet | +1 | 14:15 |
| parazyd | KatolaZ: You know I'm biased :p | 14:16 |
| KatolaZ | :D | 14:17 |
| KatolaZ | that's why I am saying that :P | 14:17 |
| FlibberTGibbet | i wonder if it's possible to reverse proxy gopher so that 2 sites can be presented off the same host? if so I'll set up gopher.friendsofdevuan.org ... | 14:17 |
| parazyd | FlibberTGibbet: Some gopher servers might be able to do it. | 14:18 |
| FlibberTGibbet | would something like nginx be able to handle a non-http/https protocol, d'you think? | 14:20 |
| FlibberTGibbet | ah, looks like nginx can handle it | 14:24 |
| filipdevuan | my dual graphics card wont allow me to use devuan, its so hard to configure optimus drivers ;/ | 14:50 |
| filipdevuan | im desperate cuz i paid 600 bucks for laptop with 4gb ram ddr4 which is a joke and geforce 940mx i cant really use :( | 14:51 |
| jaromil | bumblebee not working? | 14:53 |
| Humpelst1lzchen | filipdevuan: I thpought we agreed that you have only one graphic card? | 14:59 |
| Humpelst1lzchen | *thought | 14:59 |
| djph | Humpelst1lzchen: optimus is a laptop garbage "hybrid graphics card" technology. | 15:00 |
| filipdevuan | it is very much garbage | 15:00 |
| filipdevuan | its a shame that i didnt know its a garbage when my nan was buying me a laptop... | 15:00 |
| djph | instead of having a proper discrete card, it uses the intel (AMD) on-cpu-die card unless $conditions | 15:00 |
| Humpelst1lzchen | djph: don't think its garbage | 15:01 |
| NeonLicht | Hello. | 15:01 |
| Humpelst1lzchen | the idea is great imho | 15:01 |
| djph | although, on newer revisions you can tell it in bios/uefi to actually behave. | 15:01 |
| Humpelst1lzchen | djph: you can entirely blame it on nvidia and X that it still does not work on Linux as it supposed to be | 15:03 |
| NeonLicht | I've upgraded from jessie to ascii on several boxes and I'm very happy with it, exept I have a small problem with uzbl. When I run it, it works fine, but when I visit certain sites, the fonts in the status bar stop showing, and small rectangles show instead. Any pointers, please? | 15:04 |
| djph | Humpelst1lzchen: it was garbage on windows too. | 15:04 |
| djph | Humpelst1lzchen: although I luckily have (er, had since that mobo died horribly) a late enough one that a bios patch (IIRC) allowed me to just turn on the nvidia card full-time. | 15:05 |
| Humpelst1lzchen | djph: Afaik all thinkpads can do that | 15:05 |
| Humpelst1lzchen | at least all thinkpads I've seen could do that | 15:05 |
| djph | yeah, I have a Dell. But cat knocked glass o water on it, fried the mobo. wasn't sure if it was jsut the mobo, so replaced it with teh 'non-nvidia' one | 15:06 |
| Humpelst1lzchen | To be honest in 2011 I spent quite a lot getting bumblebee to work...without ever actually using it | 15:14 |
| xrogaan | anybody else using consolekit and slim has issue when trying to directly login after boot? | 15:39 |
| xrogaan | Login as soon as the prompt shows up. | 15:39 |
| xrogaan | I need a dedicated email to subscribe to FOSS mailing list | 15:47 |
| NewGnuGuy | KatolaZ: Gopher is the best! :-) | 15:54 |
| filipdevuan | yeah i went to my bios i wanted to disable intel completely but no luck. maybe it works but doesnt work like i could expect. It worked on linux mint though cuz it had downloaded drivers while updating OS. linux mint is great for that. xrogaan was helping me with these cards last week but i reinstalled my OS again and now it doesnt detect nvidia at all with lspci xD again. Its a joke... Can't really use my nvidia | 17:43 |
| filipdevuan | on devuan like i wish i could cuz it requires too much stuff to configure properly | 17:43 |
| filipdevuan | i may just reinstall my OS again and try to configure my drivers properly, i have bumblebee atm but i still havev issues... Perhaps i could somehow configure just intel gpu diablo 2 and tes oblivion worked on them | 17:43 |
| KatolaZ | filipdevuan: if your main use of a linux box is to play Windows games, maybe what you need is a Windows box? :) | 17:45 |
| KatolaZ | don't get me wrong | 17:45 |
| KatolaZ | I am happy you are fiddling with Devuan | 17:45 |
| KatolaZ | but if it drives you mad, just remove the madness | 17:45 |
| filipdevuan | yeah i do, but not happy with too many processes going on win10 and old games dont work on windows 10 at all and its not even possible to fix the issue | 17:46 |
| KatolaZ | ok | 17:46 |
| KatolaZ | forget what I said then :) | 17:46 |
| filipdevuan | well the thing is this laptop has this nvidia geforce and i wish i could use it xD | 17:46 |
| filipdevuan | and this is not a proper laptop for linux stuff... :S. I did basically buy windows 10 laptop and this is the cause | 17:46 |
| filipdevuan | and not windows games, i wanna play native linux games ;P. | 17:47 |
| KatolaZ | :) | 17:47 |
| KatolaZ | filipdevuan: you gotta be careful with hardware | 17:48 |
| filipdevuan | yeah i know it now ;P | 17:48 |
| KatolaZ | manufacturers normally don't give a toss about Linux | 17:48 |
| KatolaZ | (or at least most of them) | 17:48 |
| NewGnuGuy | filipdevuan: Tried ReactOS? | 17:53 |
| filipdevuan | not really ;P | 17:56 |
| filipdevuan | oh god my battery died hahah | 17:58 |
| filipdevuan | i will try it cuz i feel like trying new oses, id just install mint but i dont trust it, it had too many processes. im satisfied with devuan tho but i feel like im a bit too inexperienced with linux at the moment to use it like i want ;P | 17:59 |
| NewGnuGuy | If you try ReactOS, you'll want to install it from a CD rather than a USB disk. The USB stack is not finished yet. | 18:01 |
| filipdevuan | ook cheers ;P | 18:02 |
| NeonLicht | I've upgraded from jessie to ascii on several boxes and I'm very happy with it, exept I have a small problem with uzbl. When I run it, it works fine, but when I visit certain sites, the fonts in the status bar stop showing, and small rectangles show instead. Any pointers, please? | 18:17 |
| KatolaZ | NeonLicht: have you tried t see if the bug is known in Debian (stretch)? | 18:23 |
| NeonLicht | I haven't, KatolaZ. | 18:24 |
| KatolaZ | NeonLicht: you don't need to have stretch... | 18:33 |
| KatolaZ | just have a look at bugs.debian.org | 18:33 |
| NeonLicht | Thanks, KatolaZ. There doesn't seem to be anything about uzbl. | 18:40 |
| Unkn-Error | Hello | 19:03 |
| Unkn-Error | Which image should I download for the Pi3 ? (SIMPLE Pi3, not the PLUS + version) | 19:03 |
| Unkn-Error | 1. devuan_ascii_2.0.0_arm64_raspi3.img.xz 153M | 19:03 |
| Unkn-Error | 2. devuan_ascii_2.0.0_arm64_raspi3.tar.gz 221M | 19:03 |
| Unkn-Error | ? | 19:03 |
| filipdevuan | i think im gonna go on linux mint for a bit and see how easy it is to set wine up and drivers and the performance, i was satisfied with it, but im too inexperienced with linux, but ill be back :) | 19:04 |
| muep_ | Unkn-Error: my guess would be that both have the exact same image once you uncompress | 19:29 |
| Unkn-Error | muep_, I downloaded img.xz and WOW | 19:32 |
| telst4r | Q: DeVUAn jessie LXC template? :) | 19:32 |
| Unkn-Error | from 152 MB, after uncompressing is now about 2GB !!! | 19:32 |
| telst4r | that's called compressed air. | 19:32 |
| muep_ | Unkn-Error: that's why it is provided in compressed form | 19:33 |
| Unkn-Error | 1.84 GB exactly, that is like WOW | 19:33 |
| muep_ | disk images are often like that | 19:33 |
| Unkn-Error | I just can't belive it, that it was compressed so mutch | 19:33 |
| muep_ | they describe the exact layout of bytes on disk and not just the content of files, so there are large sections of just zero or suchlike in there | 19:33 |
| abcabc__ | it means it's quite low entropy. | 19:34 |
| Unkn-Error | oh, so it is kina lika a "sector-by-sector" backup which is compressed | 19:34 |
| muep_ | it is byte-by-byte | 19:34 |
| Unkn-Error | but the "zero" part is left | 19:34 |
| Unkn-Error | left out | 19:34 |
| Unkn-Error | I see | 19:34 |
| KatolaZ | Unkn-Error: the majority of compression algorithms out there work on blocks | 19:38 |
| KatolaZ | of hundreds/thousands bytes | 19:38 |
| KatolaZ | they find repeating blocks | 19:38 |
| KatolaZ | and replace the repetitons with a reference | 19:38 |
| KatolaZ | if you have a block of 3000 zeros, it can reduce to something like "repeat '0' 3000 times' | 19:39 |
| KatolaZ | which is 20 bytes | 19:39 |
| KatolaZ | Unkn-Error: please try it at home :) | 19:39 |
| muep_ | I'd expect block-based to describe something based on fixed-size blocks, analogous to e.g. block ciphers | 19:40 |
| KatolaZ | no muep_ | 19:40 |
| KatolaZ | I mean that the orizion of patterns is a block of a certain size | 19:40 |
| muep_ | also my impression is that at least gzip is pretty flexible about being able to compress very short streams | 19:41 |
| KatolaZ | muep_: it varies a lot across algorithms | 19:42 |
| abcabc__ | huffman dictionaries are fun | 19:42 |
| muep_ | the DEFLATE algorithm used in gzip seems to be very popular among various compression formats, though of course there are also other algorithms in use | 19:43 |
| Unkn-Error | devuan booted in my Pi3 | 19:43 |
| Unkn-Error | no GUI like xfce/gnome/kde/lxde and so on | 19:43 |
| Unkn-Error | ssh enabled by default as root, but it is fine | 19:43 |
| muep_ | I have not studied the full DEFLATE algorithm, but at least a basic huffman coding can work well with an arbitrary number of bytes | 19:43 |
| KatolaZ | yes muep_ | 19:44 |
| Unkn-Error | Devuan arm, have all Debian arm packages? | 19:45 |
| KatolaZ | the problem is that the longest the stream, the much longer it takes to DEFLATE | 19:45 |
| muep_ | well yes, sure to keep performance reasonable, algorithms tend to limit how long bits they look at | 19:45 |
| KatolaZ | but that's configurable in all the algorithms available in the market | 19:46 |
| KatolaZ | it's the -# parameter | 19:46 |
| KatolaZ | where # is normally a number between 1 and 9 | 19:46 |
| KatolaZ | (probably stating the obvious here, sorry) | 19:46 |
| KatolaZ | (will silence myself :D) | 19:47 |
| Unkn-Error | why is better openrc over systemD? | 19:48 |
| muep_ | it is much smaller at least | 19:48 |
| Unkn-Error | if I will use syncthing, with openRC it will start automatically? | 19:49 |
| Unkn-Error | This -- >> https://syncthing.net | 19:50 |
| Unkn-Error | OMG GUYS !!! | 19:51 |
| Unkn-Error | I can not belived again | 19:51 |
| telst4r | Why not ? | 19:51 |
| Unkn-Error | root@devuan:~# free -m | 19:51 |
| Unkn-Error | gives me | 19:51 |
| Unkn-Error | used 32 | 19:52 |
| Unkn-Error | that is ONLY 32 MB of ram memory | 19:52 |
| KatolaZ | o_O | 19:52 |
| telst4r | You don't have firefox+bitcoinqt+clamav going I presume | 19:52 |
| KatolaZ | what's your problem Unkn-Error | 19:52 |
| KatolaZ | ? | 19:52 |
| KatolaZ | it's a whole lot of ram | 19:53 |
| Unkn-Error | I am just amazed | 19:53 |
| telst4r | "devuan is using too little memory"? | 19:53 |
| KatolaZ | if you rebuild your kernel you can probably strip it down to about 15/20 MB | 19:53 |
| Unkn-Error | every distro I have booted up in the RasPi they where using about 350-580 MB of ram | 19:53 |
| KatolaZ | minimal live uses about 14MB RAM | 19:53 |
| KatolaZ | Unkn-Error: maybe they had a DE installed.... | 19:54 |
| Unkn-Error | really? onlu 14? | 19:54 |
| Unkn-Error | yes they had | 19:54 |
| telst4r | Unkn-Error, every other distros are bloatware. | 19:54 |
| Unkn-Error | I will try to install DE here too | 19:54 |
| muep_ | my print server rpi has only 228 MB available | 19:54 |
| muep_ | I mean in total | 19:54 |
| Unkn-Error | muep_, do you use Z ram compression or tricks like that? | 19:54 |
| Unkn-Error | for making a Compressed Swap in ram memory? | 19:55 |
| muep_ | Unkn-Error: nothing special. IME there is not that much RAM pressure unless you run RAM-intensive stuff in there | 19:55 |
| muep_ | like the desktop env that raspbian has in their full images | 19:55 |
| Unkn-Error | I will need a DE for my Pi | 19:56 |
| telst4r | my NAS has only 64MB, of which 59+70MB is being used. Boo-hoo. | 19:56 |
| muep_ | then it will certainly take more than 32 MB | 19:56 |
| KatolaZ | well.... | 19:56 |
| KatolaZ | it depends | 19:56 |
| KatolaZ | :) | 19:56 |
| muep_ | on that print server rpi, the used-cached amount of RAM is at 26 MB | 19:56 |
| KatolaZ | it depends on the DE, I mean | 19:57 |
| KatolaZ | you can have a pretty minimal system with just X and a window manager | 19:57 |
| KatolaZ | and still keep everything below 64MB | 19:57 |
| telst4r | Why go DE, use just a simple WM. | 19:57 |
| muep_ | and that 26 MB is after wasting two megs for avahi-daemon and another two for d-bus daemon and so on | 19:58 |
| telst4r | what's the purpose of avahi in the first place... | 19:58 |
| KatolaZ | like eating ram | 19:58 |
| muep_ | for other computers to find the printer automatically | 19:58 |
| KatolaZ | :D | 19:59 |
| Unkn-Error | and when I thing that my phone has 3 gb of ram, maybe 4 | 19:59 |
| Unkn-Error | phufff | 19:59 |
| muep_ | the most RAM-intensive thing on that rpi is cupsd and it is taking a bit over 6 MiB | 19:59 |
| Unkn-Error | 3.64 GB on my phone | 19:59 |
| muep_ | so it can splurge a few megs of the 228 MB on mere conveniences | 20:00 |
| telst4r | you can unsolder some of that excessive ram for other purposes. | 20:00 |
| muep_ | one interesting bit in that ps output is that ps itself was occuping more of the RAM than e.g. d-bus | 20:01 |
| telst4r | Ummmm... | 20:02 |
| Unkn-Error | from a security point of view | 20:02 |
| Unkn-Error | should devuan be more secure when compared with raspaberian? | 20:02 |
| muep_ | I would expect it to be mostly similar | 20:02 |
| KatolaZ | Unkn-Error: no distribution is more or less secure | 20:02 |
| Unkn-Error | or thay are the same? | 20:03 |
| muep_ | since over 99% of the software is the same | 20:03 |
| KatolaZ | if you have the same admin, you will have the same level of security | 20:03 |
| KatolaZ | :) | 20:03 |
| KatolaZ | mostly irrespective of the distro | 20:03 |
| muep_ | pretty much all of the included software that you would expose over public internet is the same code | 20:03 |
| muep_ | though hm, I guess raspbian has their own kernel while devuan has basically the debian kernel? | 20:04 |
| telst4r | I guess he's trying to ask whether some distro have safer defaults, like "PermitRootLogin Yes" or sudo glitches | 20:04 |
| KatolaZ | telst4r: no default can save all asses :D | 20:05 |
| telst4r | so far I have found wirecutters to be the best security suite. But they come with caveats. | 20:05 |
| Unkn-Error | funny / the wirecutters joke | 20:16 |
| Unkn-Error | yes, I was thinking at the default settings mixed with some kind of expoits + brute force attacks | 20:16 |
| Unkn-Error | when I put something on the internet with port 22 open... I have like | 20:17 |
| Unkn-Error | 32 tries in 1 minutes for guessing username / passwd | 20:17 |
| telst4r | I see. I haven't stumbled upon a comprehensive study on that. | 20:18 |
| Unkn-Error | that is on 1 ISP | 20:18 |
| Unkn-Error | on the other ISP i have, there are no such attaks | 20:18 |
| Unkn-Error | maybe one is using some kind of IDS/IDP for internet filtering and the other one dosen't | 20:18 |
| telst4r | Unkn-Error, try fail2ban, changing the port and other limits | 20:18 |
| Unkn-Error | yep, I will need to learn / read the fail2ban documentation | 20:19 |
| Unkn-Error | It is so sad the fact that World of Tanks game is not working under linux | 20:20 |
| telst4r | Unkn-Error, also a good idea would be only white-listing certain ip ranges that you know you yourself might remotely log-in from. Like school, work or a mobile broadband. | 20:21 |
| Unkn-Error | ips, always change here. however I wil change the port number for ssh / nomachte | 20:22 |
| Unkn-Error | nomachine | 20:22 |
| Unkn-Error | I have a small laptop, a thinkpad which is currently running win 8.1 | 20:23 |
| Unkn-Error | I am thinking to make it dual-boot with linux, but with this ocasion I will reinstall the windows and upgrade to win 10 | 20:24 |
| telst4r | Unkn-Error, they do. but at least you could block some never-visit-countries out. Like I would block the US, since I have no business with them. | 20:24 |
| Unkn-Error | in the same time... I am thinking of using UEFI, instead of CSM/bios legacy | 20:24 |
| Unkn-Error | the problem with UEFI is the EFI partition when.. | 20:25 |
| Unkn-Error | I do back-up the system | 20:25 |
| Unkn-Error | as there is also info written in the NVRAM at the operating system install time | 20:25 |
| Unkn-Error | how the heck, can a dual boot sys windows+linux running under UEFI+GPT be backed up in a image? | 20:26 |
| muep_ | note that it will be somewhat confusing to boot unless both windows and GNU/Linux use the same boot mechanism. so either boot both through EFI or both through CSM mode | 20:26 |
| Unkn-Error | CloneZilla is working fine, but for clonezilla I always need to keep a bootable usb stick handy and a external hdd | 20:26 |
| Unkn-Error | with the CSM+MBR the backup is fine, but there is no "secureboot" | 20:27 |
| Unkn-Error | the problems will gonna start when I will disable csm and the hdd will be GPT | 20:27 |
| Unkn-Error | from a backup and restore point of view | 20:28 |
| muep_ | with CSM+MBR you still are not backing up your firmware settings | 20:28 |
| fsmithred | Unkn-Error, you'll need a special partition to use gpt with legacy boot | 20:28 |
| muep_ | it is not much different with EFI | 20:28 |
| fsmithred | >1MB unformatted, with bios_grub flag | 20:28 |
| Unkn-Error | I will disable legacy boot. | 20:28 |
| Unkn-Error | UEFI+GPT only. | 20:28 |
| Unkn-Error | but how do I back up after the os is installed? | 20:29 |
| fsmithred | doesn't the nvram stuff get mounted? | 20:29 |
| muep_ | the kernel exposes efi variables as a virtual filesystem | 20:29 |
| Unkn-Error | I do not know if or how to check the nvram stuff | 20:29 |
| muep_ | but it is not an actual filesystem | 20:29 |
| muep_ | it is just settings of the firmware | 20:29 |
| fsmithred | probably with efibootmgr | 20:29 |
| muep_ | but I do not get why it is now important to back those up while ignoring that also traditional BIOS has firmware settings which are usually not backed up anywhere | 20:30 |
| fsmithred | yeah, I don't think you need to mess with it. If you clone the whole drive, you should be able to dd it to another drive and have it work | 20:30 |
| Unkn-Error | hmm | 20:31 |
| Unkn-Error | I guess I will buy a second hand small HDD and make some test | 20:31 |
| Unkn-Error | I usually back up my stuff | 20:31 |
| Unkn-Error | few years back, I did a "dd" on my main hardisk | 20:32 |
| Unkn-Error | :)) | 20:32 |
| Unkn-Error | and lost some of my music | 20:32 |
| fsmithred | ouch | 20:32 |
| Unkn-Error | since then, I always do backups | 20:32 |
| Unkn-Error | ok. xfce and slim is installed in Pi | 20:34 |
| Unkn-Error | but slim is not starting auto-magically | 20:34 |
| Unkn-Error | do you guys know how can slim be started automatically on devuan after reboot? | 20:35 |
| filipdevuan | somebody said here fedora doesnt run tracker apps, well i launched it via live dvd try it and it has 4 different tracker aps... | 20:49 |
| xrogaan | what do you call tracker apps? | 20:49 |
| filipdevuan | sorry tracker processes... trackerminer tracker-apps and two others of which i cant remember the name i lost my mint somewhere | 20:50 |
| muep_ | there is a tool in gnome called tracker which also tracks things, but is not a thing usually referred to as "tracker apps" | 20:50 |
| muep_ | AFAIK it is not expected to send the results of tracking anywhere | 20:51 |
| filipdevuan | im a bit confused with my laptop and OS's i feel like i wanna buy some decent but cheap PC for devuan, my laptop should have something else... but the thing i really wanna install different os and uninstall devuan but somewhat reason i can't cuz devuan is great... | 20:51 |
| xrogaan | filipdevuan: there are two kinds of "tracker". You have one that index your filesystem to provide you, the user, with a database of every document on your hard drive. | 20:51 |
| xrogaan | gives you a way to easily search for content | 20:52 |
| xrogaan | that's the "tracker" you are referring to. | 20:52 |
| filipdevuan | xrogaan i don't remember what i've done with your help that all these games did launch on devuan ;/// | 20:52 |
| xrogaan | the other kind is an ADS software that keep track of whatever you do or install and report it to a third party. | 20:52 |
| filipdevuan | i feel like reinstalling devuan and doing partitions right and then try configue everything from scratch again like i did thanks to you | 20:52 |
| xrogaan | what you have by default on fedora is most probably https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Tracker | 20:53 |
| filipdevuan | well yeah | 20:53 |
| xrogaan | filipdevuan: if you reinstalled, make sur you have the firmware package installed: aptitude search firmware | 20:53 |
| filipdevuan | i remember that i launched diablo 2 and oblivion before i installed bumblebee linux-firmware | 20:53 |
| filipdevuan | and before terminal was detecting nvidia gpu | 20:54 |
| xrogaan | you want the base meta packages: firmware-linux | 20:54 |
| filipdevuan | but after i downloaded more stuff i was able to run diablo 3 and newer games but older games didnt wanna run so i gave up | 20:54 |
| filipdevuan | okay ;) | 20:54 |
| filipdevuan | cheers | 20:54 |
| filipdevuan | btw is there any nice cloud service available on net where i can store stuff like pictures??? would you recommend anything?? | 20:54 |
| xrogaan | google drive? | 20:55 |
| filipdevuan | does it have to be google are them all the same anyways wondering if theres any kind of open source free software blablabla cloud service | 20:55 |
| xrogaan | FOSS services are the one you run yourself | 20:56 |
| xrogaan | like owncloud | 20:56 |
| filipdevuan | i must move my ass to poundland and buy more DVD's to put devuan on it so i can use my pendrive xD | 20:56 |
| filipdevuan | okay thanx | 20:57 |
| filipdevuan | i may just try dropbox | 20:57 |
| xrogaan | you could try https://framadrive.org but it's french. | 20:58 |
| muep_ | e.g. google drive can be used with free software while my impression is that with dropbox both the service and the client are proprietary | 20:59 |
| xrogaan | other cloud providers https://nextcloud.com/providers/ | 20:59 |
| filipdevuan | okay i registered to zaclys | 21:06 |
| filipdevuan | btw i really like default devuan desktop environment its cool but id love to use something "more beautiful" i really like gnome but it doesnt run here. iv noticed with different DE's i don't get same stuff that i get on default devuan one, which is for example set brightness, iv noticed default one works the best but maybe there's something else i could use??? | 21:09 |
| filipdevuan | can u confirm that all these desktop environments i can use during devuan installation work 100% properly?? | 21:11 |
| fsmithred | the ones in the installer will work | 21:14 |
| fsmithred | If you want lxde, you can install it afterward, and you might have to experiment with which polkit packages you want | 21:15 |
| filipdevuan | ok thx ;) | 21:15 |
| filipdevuan | what exactly is polkit packages?? | 21:16 |
| fsmithred | libraries that policykit uses | 21:16 |
| filipdevuan | ok cool | 21:16 |
| fsmithred | stuff that makes it so the user can reboot or shutdown from the DE menu | 21:16 |
| fsmithred | mount removable drives | 21:16 |
| fsmithred | if you install one if the DE from the installer iso, it will work. If you install a DE by installing its component pieces, you may need to figure out what's missing. | 21:18 |
| fsmithred | and if you install two different DE, there could possibly be package conflicts | 21:18 |
| filipdevuan | okay cool, cheers. ;). i might try something different then. but i used i think KDE and now i think im using cinammon and default one worked best for me | 21:19 |
| fsmithred | kde, cinnamon and lxqt use elogind; xfce and mate use consolekit | 21:19 |
| fsmithred | are all three desktops installed in the same system? | 21:19 |
| filipdevuan | oh sorry i think i use mate then not cinnamon | 21:20 |
| filipdevuan | i installed mate and the default one i think and i can't switch to default one before login ;P its only mate | 21:20 |
| filipdevuan | w8 lemme have a look | 21:20 |
| filipdevuan | yeah i have mate running | 21:21 |
| fsmithred | at slim login screen, press F1 to toggle through the different desktops you can log into | 21:21 |
| filipdevuan | yeah theres only mate ;D | 21:22 |
| fsmithred | what happened to xfce? | 21:22 |
| fsmithred | oh wait, when you installed, you check the box for mate and the box for default devuan desktop? | 21:23 |
| filipdevuan | yeah i think so | 21:23 |
| fsmithred | ok, that second one gives you the desktop theme and maybe a few other things | 21:23 |
| fsmithred | but not a full DE | 21:23 |
| fsmithred | I think | 21:24 |
| Unkn-Error | filipdevuan, Cloud service sugesstin -->> mega.co.nz 15 GB free, it was 50 GB 2 years back. | 21:24 |
| Unkn-Error | filipdevuan, Cloud service sugesstin -->> yandex disk - unlimited disk space for Pictures / Photo | 21:24 |
| Unkn-Error | as far as I remember | 21:24 |
| filipdevuan | cheers i registered to zaclys. just i have some pics on my laptop, my phone doesnt connect to my laptop and i wanna reinstall my OS with proper partitions this time like one for OS second one for media | 21:25 |
| Unkn-Error | filipdevuan, what Desktop Enviroment have you used with Devuan? | 21:25 |
| filipdevuan | i used default one, i also installed KDE but some stuff were not running like set brightness with Fn buttons and couldnt find brightness settings which was pretty frustrating, had same issue with MATE but i did something in some conf file and now it works | 21:26 |
| filipdevuan | But i wanna finally install OS with media on seperate partition so i dont lose anything when reinstalling | 21:26 |
| Unkn-Error | I assume the default one is XFCE | 21:26 |
| filipdevuan | yeah | 21:26 |
| filipdevuan | i may be trying different distros in the meantime, but i dont wanna lose my data all the time ;D | 21:27 |
| Unkn-Error | I see. | 21:27 |
| Unkn-Error | You could try Virtual Box | 21:27 |
| filipdevuan | yeah past 3 weeks i reinstalled my laptop like 10 times... | 21:27 |
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