| gnarface | just state your problem as clearly as possible | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| gnarface | if you ask a question you might get an answer | 00:01 |
| andi89gi | okay sry - well maybe you've all heard the question x-times; but I'm interested in installing Devuan instead of Debian. The only difference is that Devuan doesn't use systemd? | 00:03 |
| gnarface | for the most part | 00:05 |
| gnarface | you'll probably want to see this https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt | 00:06 |
| fsmithred | download one of the installer isos and you'll install with a modified version of the debian installer | 00:06 |
| gnarface | yea the installer will be the same basically | 00:06 |
| fsmithred | the live isos use refractainstaller, which copies the running live system to hard drive | 00:07 |
| andi89gi | ah thx - I | 00:07 |
| fsmithred | the default desktop is xfce4 | 00:07 |
| fsmithred | but you can have others instead | 00:08 |
| fsmithred | just don't ask for gnome | 00:08 |
| andi89gi | I have read this - and why is it better to use init than systemd? - I don't know much about this discussion | 00:08 |
| fsmithred | google is your friend | 00:08 |
| andi89gi | xfce4 is good - gnome is not my favourite | 00:08 |
| golinux | So is #debianfork | 00:08 |
| andi89gi | hehe yes that's true | 00:08 |
| fsmithred | if you've been using debian for more than a couple years, devuan will feel very familiar | 00:10 |
| andi89gi | Well I just used it for 2-3 month for testing it -it was a stable system. But sometimes I want to have some updated versions of browsers or programs. Hmmm as I undersand the discussion between systemd/init is that info&ip server datas will be send to google etc.? | 00:12 |
| gnarface | they're saying it's about sending data to google? | 00:15 |
| gnarface | interesting... | 00:15 |
| golinux | #debianfork | 00:16 |
| gnarface | andi89gi: nobody wants to talk about this in here, because it always starts a fight, go to #debianfork if you want to talk about it | 00:16 |
| gnarface | i'll explain it to you there | 00:16 |
| gnarface | the short version is that the old init wasn't broken | 00:16 |
| andi89gi | ok gnarface I've joined the channel | 00:19 |
| cehteh | curious question, can one upgrade a debian jessie to devuan ascii? | 00:28 |
| fsmithred | cehteh, yes | 00:31 |
| cehteh | ah thanks | 00:32 |
| fsmithred | https://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/migrate-to-ascii | 00:33 |
| fsmithred | cehteh, ^^^ | 00:33 |
| cehteh | not so important yet | 00:36 |
| gmcastil | have an older inspiron 1525 and the live USB installer just hangs on boot - any suggestions for debug from here ? | 08:55 |
| gmcastil | complains about a problem reading data from a CD-ROM | 08:56 |
| gmcastil | and thats as far as i can get | 08:56 |
| andi89gi | Hi, I have a problem to configure wifi - i installed broadcom drivers via synaptic - but i do not have any wifi connection | 13:20 |
| holla | gmcastil: i'n not aware of this issue but since no one else answered yet, here are some suggestions: 1. check checksum to make sure your dl isn't corrupted -- 2. null your stick: 'dd if=/dev/null of=/dev/sdX' where '/dev/sdX' is your pendrive !!double check to make sure you choose the right device!! -- recreate mbr on your pendrive by gparted, or (s)fdisk, or fixparts -- redo the copy 'dd | 13:44 |
| holla | if=/path/to/devuan-live-desktop.iso of=/dev/sdX conv=sync && sync' -- try again | 13:44 |
| xrogaan | if I remember correctly, it's feasible to move from jessie to ascii in one go, right? | 15:58 |
| Leander | if by "one go" you mean editing your sources.list then apt update, apt dist-upgrade, then yes | 15:59 |
| xrogaan | nevermind, I need to format the disk anyhow | 16:45 |
| xrogaan | I recuperated an old Dell optiplex GX620 | 16:46 |
| xrogaan | it has 2 drives: 80gb and 160gb | 16:46 |
| baimafeima | Hello Devuan team, are there any plans to make Devuan more accessible for beginners? | 17:37 |
| baimafeima | otherwise justice and freedom is mostly for intermediate users or experts | 17:37 |
| baimafeima | which wouldn't be very just, would it? | 17:37 |
| gnarface | well | 17:37 |
| gnarface | there is | 17:37 |
| gnarface | it's your lucky day | 17:37 |
| gnarface | we have a plan to make beginners more accessible for devuan | 17:38 |
| gnarface | state your problem or question and someone will answer it | 17:38 |
| gnarface | before long you won't be a beginner | 17:38 |
| baimafeima | if there is any way I can help, I'd be happy to | 17:38 |
| baimafeima | I'm a new Linux user and my fresh perspective may help increase accessiblity | 17:39 |
| gnarface | well whether you're a beginner or not, the best way to figure that out is hang out in here for a while | 17:39 |
| baimafeima | who is the main developer or orginator of devuan? | 17:39 |
| gnarface | team list here: https://devuan.org/os/team/ | 17:40 |
| gnarface | and a great forum post here: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=589 | 17:41 |
| baimafeima | gnarface, thanks, just read through it | 17:45 |
| baimafeima | is there a flagship desktop environment? I clicked on download but didn't find any info about this | 17:45 |
| baimafeima | so I'm not sure what I'll actually install with a download | 17:46 |
| gnarface | the default is xfce4 | 17:46 |
| gnarface | with i think slim for a gui login manager | 17:46 |
| gnarface | but those are just defaults, you can change them | 17:47 |
| golinux | baimafeima: You can try default Devuan by booting from the desktop-live iso | 17:47 |
| golinux | You can also install from there if you like what yousee. | 17:47 |
| baimafeima | gnarface, I didn't find any information that xfce is the default desktop environment and also cannot find the live iso images | 17:48 |
| gnarface | where are you looking? | 17:48 |
| baimafeima | golinux, it looks like it's not very accessible for beginners yet | 17:48 |
| xrogaan | what to do when a mirror returned by deb.devuan.org doesn't have certain packet? | 17:48 |
| baimafeima | the download section on the website | 17:49 |
| xrogaan | package* | 17:49 |
| baimafeima | https://devuan.org/get-devuan | 17:49 |
| gnarface | xrogaan: take a deep breath and try again | 17:49 |
| xrogaan | the same mirror gets used, is there a way to blacklist it temporarily? | 17:49 |
| xrogaan | it's just one ip address | 17:50 |
| gnarface | hmmm. maybe it's the only one in your region... | 17:50 |
| xrogaan | I doubt it | 17:50 |
| baimafeima | gnarface, https://devuan.org/get-devuan I cannot find anything suitable there | 17:50 |
| baimafeima | i'm looking for something as easy as Solus | 17:50 |
| gnarface | baimafeima: go into the /devuan/devuan_ascii/ directory and read the README.txt | 17:50 |
| baimafeima | https://solus-project.com/download/ | 17:50 |
| baimafeima | but unfortunately solus is committed to open source but not free software | 17:50 |
| baimafeima | gnarface, that's too complicated for me, sorry | 17:51 |
| gnarface | it's not, you can do it | 17:51 |
| gnarface | i have faith in you | 17:51 |
| baimafeima | gnarface, found it | 17:53 |
| baimafeima | my point is not to make it accessible for me but for everyone, so that it won't be necessary where to find these versions here on IRC | 17:53 |
| baimafeima | I hope that Devuan strives to become the easiest to use operating system, something which Debian failed to do | 17:54 |
| gnarface | that's a more difficult task than you think | 17:54 |
| gnarface | here's what i can promise you | 17:54 |
| baimafeima | I'm willing to help out as much as I can by pointing in the right direction from my beginners's perspective | 17:55 |
| gnarface | ... if you forget all about that and just work on learning devuan, soon you won't care | 17:55 |
| baimafeima | gnarface, yeah but that's the problem, then I will grow into an intermediate user but it remains inaccessible for others | 17:55 |
| gnarface | possibly, but also there may be a threshold below which you just can't feasibly help someone who refuses the READMEs | 17:56 |
| baimafeima | gnarface, the more I will hang out in the devuan community, the more I will get used to how things run and this is precisely the danger...I'd like to keep a distance, to participate but yet remain a distant observer who looks at the subject matter for the first time | 17:56 |
| baimafeima | only then it's possible to see flaws which others don't see | 17:56 |
| gnarface | eh, that's less of a risk than you think | 17:57 |
| gnarface | you'll still remember what it was like to be new | 17:57 |
| baimafeima | gnarface, what about striving for accessibility without the need for a readme file, everything necessary could be on the website itself, right below the download link | 17:57 |
| gnarface | uh, honestly that task may be lacking little other than consensus of what to put there and a volunteer to do the work | 17:58 |
| gnarface | there's a lot of little changes that could be made to the website to help like that | 17:58 |
| gnarface | but keep in mind, you're still trading reading for reading | 17:58 |
| baimafeima | gnarface, do I understand it correctly that Devuan strives to be wholly independet from debian? | 17:59 |
| gnarface | that is not quite accurate | 17:59 |
| gnarface | it's a huge oversimplified statement | 17:59 |
| baimafeima | gnarface, what would be the best format to help initiate these changes or talk about it? here on irc or elsewhere? | 17:59 |
| gnarface | devuan is compeltely independent of debian except for the fact that most the packages come directly from debian, unaltered | 17:59 |
| gnarface | so it's no more independent of debian than ubuntu, for example | 18:00 |
| baimafeima | gnarface, so packaging technology will stay the same or are there any plans on using a different package manager? I have been around for around two years in the Solus community and I like some of their ideas, such as that a package manager should only be there to deploy software but not to install software, so ideally a user should not have any contact with the package manager at all | 18:01 |
| koollman | Would it be useful to autoinclude the readme content on the related pages (or simply add a link to it) ? :) | 18:01 |
| gnarface | baimafeima: there is a forum, there is a gitlab, and there is a mailing list https://devuan.org/os/development | 18:01 |
| koollman | baimafeima: unlikely to change unless you can get very very convincing | 18:01 |
| gnarface | baimafeima: i'm not actually in the loop but i know currently of no plans to alter fundamental components of the distro that haven't been tied to systemd in a way that makes it necessary to do so | 18:02 |
| baimafeima | I see | 18:02 |
| koollman | maybe if dpkg or apt-get start to require systemd ... | 18:02 |
| gnarface | baimafeima: (maybe the part you're missing is we all actually liked the way debian used to be) | 18:02 |
| gnarface | koollman: my idea would be more along the lines of a "quick start" page that just directs them to the live image | 18:03 |
| baimafeima | I'm an absolute Solus fan, I think architecturally they get things right (let's forget about systemd for a second, I don't really have much of an opinion and don't understand it) but concerning how they build the distro from the ground up which a permanent questioning attitude: just because it works doesn't mean it should stay that way...I perceive it as extremely innovative...the only issue I have with Solus is the open | 18:04 |
| baimafeima | source/free software commitment, so esssentially they lack ethical awareness to put it simply | 18:04 |
| koollman | baimafeima: we're more likely to want to not change things. Because they mostly worked, and stability is nice :) | 18:04 |
| gnarface | baimafeima: oh, that sounds exactly opposite of this distro's current goals. | 18:04 |
| baimafeima | gnarface, yeah... | 18:04 |
| gnarface | baimafeima: but! if you wanted to make YOUR OWN distro in the lines of something like Solus, devuan could be a good choice for a base | 18:05 |
| Akuli | a quick start page might be nice | 18:05 |
| gnarface | baimafeima: there are actually other distros already using devuan as a base. some new ones, and some that used to be using debian. | 18:05 |
| baimafeima | gnarface, I'm too far away knowledge-wise to be able to pull this off :D | 18:05 |
| Akuli | not much work to write or maintain, but makes it much easier to find wit | 18:05 |
| Akuli | i think googling for "devuan download" should bring to a page with clear instructions | 18:05 |
| Akuli | also i wish the README said which version is newer, ascii or jessie | 18:06 |
| gnarface | it's ascii, just fyi | 18:06 |
| Akuli | i know | 18:06 |
| Akuli | but it wasn't easy to figure out from the readme, and i don't want to read lots of stuff just to get an iso downloaded | 18:06 |
| baimafeima | ttyl, need to be out for a while | 18:10 |
| Beerbelott | Does anyone know why old kernels seem not to be removed on kernel upgrade anymore? | 19:15 |
| Beerbelott | http://paste.debian.net/1038655/ | 19:17 |
| gnarface | it'll remove them eventually | 19:18 |
| gnarface | like when it thinks you can't boot them anymore | 19:18 |
| gnarface | you don't actually need to keep them around | 19:19 |
| gnarface | but it's a good idea to keep the previous one or two versions just in case of emergencies | 19:19 |
| gnarface | you might need to have the linux-image-amd64 and linux-headers-amd64 meta-packages though | 19:21 |
| gnarface | it won't upgrade to new ones without those anyway | 19:21 |
| gnarface | (i presume linux-image-i386 and linux-headers-i386 if you're not on 64-bit) | 19:21 |
| Beerbelott | From what I understood from /etc/kernel/postinst.d/apt-auto-removal, it is supposed to merely keep the last 2 versions only | 19:23 |
| Beerbelott | I ran commands from this script manually and it correctly lists more than that | 19:24 |
| gnarface | oh, i dont' know | 19:24 |
| gnarface | i guess i don't know what it's "supposed to do" but i think typically i see them kept them around until the gcc version that went with them gets removed | 19:25 |
| gnarface | which usually doesn't happen until you're doing a dist-upgrade | 19:27 |
| Beerbelott | I run the script I mentioned earlier by stripping the modifying parts in the end, just to display what would otherwise be written to a conf file: http://paste.debian.net/1038657/ | 19:28 |
| Beerbelott | that's actually the content of /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/01autoremove-kernels, where it's written | 19:32 |
| Beerbelott | OK I am still running 4.9.0-7-amd64, not having rebooted on the latest update, thus it shall keep this and 4.9.0-6 | 19:34 |
| Beerbelott | but this 4.9.0-5 is awkward | 19:35 |
| gnarface | hmmm | 19:38 |
| gnarface | no i don't think it should be doing that | 19:38 |
| gnarface | it the -?- number is the debian package revision | 19:38 |
| gnarface | it should have replaced 4.9.0-5 with 4.9.0-6 and then 4.9.0-7 after that | 19:39 |
| gnarface | it shouldn't have all 3 at once | 19:39 |
| gnarface | if you reboot, 4.9.0-5 and 4.9.0-6 should no longer be an option because 4.9.0-7 has replaced them | 19:39 |
| gnarface | i haven't run into any problems with that happening here | 19:40 |
| gnarface | but ymmv if you started mixing kernels from other distros | 19:40 |
| gnarface | Beerbelott: ^ | 19:40 |
| gnarface | maybe during the upgrade you were looking for it to say it removed the old ones, and missed that it said it actually overwrote them? | 19:42 |
| gnarface | my own /etc/kernel/postinst.d/apt-auto-removal file on ceres looks like a set of masks that matches all the kernels going back to 3.1 | 19:44 |
| gnarface | maybe it keeps them longer if you installed them manually instead of as part of an upgrade to linux-image-amd64? | 19:45 |
| golinux | gnarface: My upgrades on Devuan have never kept the old kernel. :( You know where to configure it to keep the last one? | 19:49 |
| Beerbelott | Mmmh wait: Your version (1.4.8) of apt appears to be out of date. | 19:50 |
| Beerbelott | Something is WRONG on the Internet :P | 19:50 |
| Beerbelott | Is using 'http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged ascii' a problem? | 19:51 |
| gnarface | golinux: no, i'm really not sure what the pattern is now. i know if you don't have the "linux-image-[arch]" and "linux-headers-[arch]" package installed it won't upgrade the kernel automatically though, so i'm hypothesizing that maybe installing them by their full package names and NOT having the meta-packages installed is the difference? | 19:52 |
| gnarface | after all, if it's not upgrading the package for you, it's not removing the old one either | 19:52 |
| gnarface | but then you have to search the repo for kernel updates to get them :-/ | 19:52 |
| Beerbelott | Oh crap... | 19:53 |
| Beerbelott | pkgmaster.devuan.org. 1222 IN A 5.196.38.18 | 19:53 |
| Beerbelott | deb.devuan.org. 3589 IN CNAME deb.roundr.devuan.org. | 19:53 |
| Beerbelott | deb.roundr.devuan.org. 86390 IN A 185.26.197.8 | 19:53 |
| Beerbelott | [...] | 19:53 |
| Beerbelott | Someone on this channel advised me to use pkgmaster in the past ^^ | 19:53 |
| gnarface | it's a tradeoff | 19:53 |
| gnarface | i tend to do it one way for servers but the other way for desktops | 19:53 |
| Beerbelott | It was at the time auto.mirror was doing strange stuff | 19:53 |
| gnarface | berndj: it's now just "deb" | 19:53 |
| gnarface | berndj: ignore me | 19:53 |
| gnarface | Beerbelott: it's now just "deb" | 19:53 |
| gnarface | deb.devuan.org is the new auto.mirror.devuan.org | 19:54 |
| Beerbelott | I read about that but did not actually check if it was a mere alias or not... | 19:54 |
| gnarface | it's a round-robin | 19:54 |
| berndj | haha, set your tab nick completion to last-spoken order :p | 19:54 |
| Beerbelott | pkgmaster does not seem to provide the same versions | 19:54 |
| gnarface | Beerbelott: (using pkgmaster directly was a temporary measure) | 19:55 |
| golinux | Yes, please use deb.devuan.org | 19:55 |
| golinux | It was in the Release Notes and on the website. ;) | 19:55 |
| golinux | Dang . . . he left . . . | 19:57 |
| golinux | Beerbelott: Yes, please use deb.devuan.org | 20:00 |
| golinux | It was in the Release Notes and on the website. ;) | 20:00 |
| Beerbelott | Yup, it was a remainder of past troubles | 20:02 |
| Beerbelott | anyway wrong lead: reportbug is merely talking about stuff in unstable branches from debian | 20:02 |
| Beerbelott | SHall we use reportbug for Devuan bugs? Is it routed properly to Devuan bug tracker? | 20:02 |
| fsmithred | not sure if the bugtracker is working right now | 20:12 |
| fsmithred | there are a bunch of bugs filed against it | 20:12 |
| fsmithred | and I know that the bug I filed about a month ago didn't show up. Not sure what happened with that - went on vacation. | 20:13 |
| fsmithred | did that by email as usual, to submit@bugs.devuan.org | 20:14 |
| fsmithred | so... | 20:14 |
| fsmithred | /dev/md0 doesn't work anymore | 20:14 |
| fsmithred | to be more specific, during update-initramfs, cryptsetup complains if you have something like /dev/md0 in crypttab | 20:15 |
| fsmithred | but /dev/md/0 or /dev/md/some-name works | 20:15 |
| fsmithred | and I now know how to do encrypted raid with lvm using refractainstaller | 20:17 |
| golinux | I have only used email to report a bug to bugs,devuan.org | 20:18 |
| Beerbelott | Well I used reportbug to help me craft a mail message | 20:20 |
| Beerbelott | and I sent it manually | 20:20 |
| fsmithred | check in a little while to see if it shows up | 20:21 |
| Beerbelott | It has been delivered (250) to submit@bugs.devuan.org... That's all I know | 20:21 |
| fsmithred | I think you'll get a response that gives you the bug number | 20:21 |
| fsmithred | then you can go to bugs.devuan.org to see your report | 20:22 |
| gnarface | berndj: thanks for the tip, but it turns out it was already set to that. i guess case-sensitivity throws it off though. | 20:25 |
| Beerbelott | fsmithred: I sure will be axiously awaiting for that email ;) | 20:28 |
| Beerbelott | gnarface: Sry to break auto-completion :p | 20:29 |
| xrogaan | err, anybody knows how to send a machine into hibernation from cli? | 22:42 |
| xrogaan | oh, pm-hibenate | 22:49 |
| Beerbelott | Well... No mail from bugs.devuan.org. I guess that's a fail | 23:22 |
| gnarface | you used reportbug to submit it? | 23:25 |
| gnarface | i'm not sure if it's wired up right by default | 23:27 |
| gnarface | it may need a config file changed to point to bugs.devuan.org | 23:27 |
| golinux | Did you send it by email? | 23:29 |
| golinux | I could never get reportbug to work properly. | 23:29 |
| gnarface | i thought i remembered someone saying it worked if reconfigured | 23:30 |
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