libera/#devuan/ Wednesday, 2019-02-20

KatolaZno fsmithred00:00
KatolaZlive iso is too big00:00
KatolaZnetinst is a few hundred MBs00:01
fsmithredtoo big for what?00:01
specingWould anyone be kind enough and add compress=lzo, compress=zlib, autodefrag and nossd to btrfs filesystem mount options in the installer?00:01
KatolaZif we add live iso it will grow to more than 1GB...00:01
fsmithredoh, I'm talking about putting that image on usb00:01
KatolaZspecing: why?00:01
KatolaZ(I mean, why should that be in the installer?)00:01
specingKatolaZ: because the compress flags are used for new files only -> making install use less space if they are applied right away00:02
specingalso make it use mkfs.btrfs --mixed for devices under 16GB00:02
specingKatolaZ: also related, is there an easy way to pause the installer right after setting up the partitions but before install base system runs?00:03
KatolaZspecing: an installer is a generic tool is not a tool to install just *your* system00:03
specingKatolaZ: in general those flags are good to have on a btrfs filesystem00:03
KatolaZspecing: just use the expert install option00:03
specingnot just on mine00:03
specingok00:03
specingWhy isn't the partitioner more like this? https://linx.li/logicalpartitioner.png00:30
MinceRafaik you can use multiple partition-like objects (even on multiple disks) as a single area for LVM on which to make logical volumes00:31
specingthat is true, the same also holds for btrfs00:32
specingit is also confusing that they don't follow in logical order of setup00:33
specingSCSI - LUKS - LVM00:33
specinginstead it is LUKS - LVM - SCSI00:33
specingHahaha now I made it without that in-target already running and OOM kills apt-get01:16
specing:(01:16
specingrunning error*01:16
specingI don't get it. The VM has 380MB RAM. apt can't possibly be using so much RAM, can it?01:22
specingThe only explanation would be if for some reason it started installing to tmpfs01:23
specingbut df -h does not indicate that01:23
specingwhy is it mounted at /dev/.static/dev?01:25
gnarfacespecing: without swap?01:28
specingokay, there were 350 MB that the partitioner left in /etc and /media that I temporarily copied to /tmp in order to reformat btrfs01:29
specingand forgot to wipe it after copying back01:29
specinggnarface: yes01:29
specingWell, that is great01:36
specingas soon as I have to start killing processes to restart the install at a previous step, something gets noted somewhere and then I get "in-target already running" errors01:37
specingbah oom again02:56
gnarfacethere is actually some apt config value you can use to tell it to be sparing on ram03:00
gnarfacebut it's easier to just have swap03:00
gnarfaceyou're gonna keep running into this issue otherwise03:01
specingI gave it 1.5 times the ram that my Gentoo-running router has, come on :P03:03
gnarfacewell, gentoo works differently03:03
specingportage is insanely cpu and ram hungry03:04
specingoh wait, does devuan install cd have zram?03:05
gnarfacei don't know03:05
gnarfacebut i DO know the stuff that i've told you i know03:10
gnarfaceat this point you're just making it harder on yourself03:11
gnarfaceapt started using lots of ram by default a few major debian revisions ago (sometime around when they ditched the "3 floppy disks" version of the installer and the 8MB RAM requirement)03:15
gnarfaceyou'll find that the amount of ram it takes is now some factor of the amount of packages pending updates that it's trying to download concurrently03:16
gnarfacebut like i said, in some man page there's a config flag you can change to tell it to be sparing.  it'll be slower and try not to unpack everything at once.03:17
gnarfacebut you could probably also just fix this by having like... any swap at all03:17
gnarfacelike 10MB of swap might be enough03:17
gnarfaceyour problem is you think of swap as just a linear extension of physical ram, operating at a slower throughput and higher latency, which is a dramatic and harmful oversimplification that's leading you to do insane things like try to omit using swap at all03:18
gnarfaceand not that there aren't valid use cases for a swapless system03:19
gnarfaceit's just that you're clearly not in one of them03:19
gnarfaceand so you're metaphorically trying to bust down a brick wall with your forehead03:19
gnarfacehell, it might even work to just try to update the packages one at a time.  if none of them have a lot of dependencies that could avoid hitting your ram ceiling too, you know.03:21
gnarface(just fyi if your complaint about swap is that the system will use some even if ram isn't 100% maxxed out, the correct way to fix that is to set /proc/sys/vm/swappiness to 0, not to just remove swap entirely)03:51
Leanderdo you have any reference about how the swap is more than just a memory extension? this is a comment that comes back again and again in discussions about swap usefulness, but I've never found any detailed technical explanation about why03:59
gnarfaceLeander: i don't have a reference.  it was roughly explained to me once in #debian by someone who was just about fed up with my shit too.  i'm sure the docs are out there i just don't have them at my fingertips.  but the important takeaway is just that omitting swap doesn't really make stuff faster.  it superficially makes it seem that way by just preventing anything that needs more space from working at all.04:01
gnarfacethe trick of setting swappiness to 0 will have the same effect on programs that would have worked either way while still allowing stuff that needs more memory to work too04:03
gnarfacehmm. there should be information on how swap is actually used somewhere in orbit of kernel documentation04:04
gnarfacethink of it in layers04:07
gnarfaceanother massive oversimplification probably riddled with inaccuracies but if you think of a cpu with layer-1, layer-2, and sometimes a layer-3 cache.... well just think of system ram as layer 4 and the swap as layer 5 then04:11
gnarfaceremoving the swap to make your system go faster is like making your car go faster by removing the brakes04:15
gnarfaceit will go a lot faster04:15
gnarfaceand then crash04:15
gnarfacethe default swappiness value of "60" (out of 100 iirc) is a big swap-happy for the taste of modern users used to having enough ram to fit the entire OS04:17
gnarfacea bit*04:17
gnarfaceit's really a matter of taste though04:18
Leanderyes, I can understand the argument that you need swap as a safety net, to give you time to save and/or close things, before OOM rips your system04:18
LeanderI found interesting answers (that I'd like to investigate further) on that thread: https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/19049704:19
gnarfaceit will also help with stuff that people benchmarking this stuff often fail to benchmark... like the second time firefox starts up after boot, instead of just the first04:20
Leanderalso https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/19057204:20
gnarfacehmmm, yea they look like they know what they're talking about there04:21
gnarfacenow, how much swap you really need is highly debated and i don't even know what the right answer is there04:24
gnarfacei was still setting mine to the same amount as physical ram up to 8GB, but outside of massive memory leak conditions i've never ever seen it use more than a few megabytes of it04:25
gnarfaceit really depends on what you're actually doing though i suppose04:25
gnarfaceobviously there's certain server tasks that can't work fast enough if they're swapping out (like apache/mysql) and in those cases, use of swap is usually a warning sign, but in none of those cases will just omitting the swap entirely make your life easier04:30
gnarface(or even address the actual problem)04:31
gnarface(which is probably some rogue php script)04:31
system32Hi. how can i change the timezone ? i have no GUI or DE . also , im using SSH13:20
gnarfaceinstall the tzdata package (apt-get update && apt-get install tzdata) or dpkg-reconfigure tzdata if it is already installed13:22
system32and after that ?13:23
debdogdon'T worry, be happy *sing*13:24
gnarfacesystem32: after that, follow the onscreen prompts13:26
system32it says tzdata is installed but dpkg-reconfigure tzdata says tzdata is not there13:26
gnarfaceweird13:26
gnarfaceare you fully updated?13:26
system32let me rerun the update command again13:26
system32ah there we go13:27
system32it opened a gui13:27
system32Current default time zone: 'Asia/Tehran'13:28
system32Local time is now:      Wed Feb 20 21:22:21 +0330 2019.13:28
system32Universal Time is now:  Wed Feb 20 17:52:21 UTC 2019.13:28
system32but thats still incorrect13:28
system32local time is 3:55 pm13:28
gnarfaceyou might want ntp too13:29
system32ntp ?13:29
gnarfacenetwork time sync13:29
system32can i just manually set the time ?13:29
gnarfaceyes13:30
system32well, do you know the command for that ?13:30
debdogdate -s .....13:31
system32it worked. thanks13:32
specingSo13:34
specingapparently devuan installer still pulls some stuff from deb.debian.org even though I had not selected that mirror13:35
gnarfaceit should pull most of it from debian.org afaik13:38
specingmaybe I am doing my proxy mirroring wrong13:40
specingmaybe I should just make my local DNS server pretend to be authoritative for deb.debian.org and deb.devuan.org13:40
specingthat way apt would still work after taking machines outside my network13:40
specinggnarface: how many domains does devuan pull from? Which ones?13:41
specingjust deb.debian.org and deb.devuan.org?13:41
gnarfacewell there's a bunch of mirrors in the round-robin13:42
gnarfacebut unchanged debian packages are pulled by redirect13:42
specinggnarface: in the public round robin sure, but if I overrode it, then there would be just one physical server in the list13:43
specinggnarface: as far as I understood, the redirect happens mirror-side, with alsomething13:43
gnarfacei'm not sure about that13:44
gnarfaceit's called amprolla313:45
specingyeah, that13:46
KatolaZspecing: you need your proxy to manage the rewrites14:03
KatolaZamprolla is not doing anything online14:03
KatolaZwhen you contact a devuan mirror, all the redirects are managed by the http server14:03
KatolaZamprolla merges off-line14:03
specingKatolaZ: ok, but I'm just forwarding all requests14:03
* KatolaZ shrugs14:04
specingit is a devuan mirror doing the redirects14:04
KatolaZspecing: if other users can use devuan mirrors directly, and you can't use them properly with a proxy, I guess the problem might be with your proxy14:04
specingKatolaZ: it works now14:04
KatolaZgreat14:04
specingI was missing a https rewrite to http14:04
KatolaZsee14:05
specingsince my local mirror is only http14:05
KatolaZok14:05
specingand the remote mirror was upgrading to https14:05
KatolaZglad to hear it works14:05
KatolaZspecing: that depends on the specific mirror you are contacting I guess14:05
KatolaZif you use deb.devuan.org, you only get HTTP14:05
KatolaZbbl14:06
specingLooks like I will not be able to create a DNS-level redirect for deb.debian.org, as ISC BIND does not let me add apex level CNAMEs19:30
specingand I don't want to override debian.org19:30
KatolaZspecing: if it's not for too many machines, just use /etc/hosts19:32
KatolaZI guess you cannot define CNAMEs for zones you don't manage19:33
specingI can pretend to manage them19:33
DonkeyHoteia zone cannot be a cname19:34
KatolaZnamely19:34
specingyep DonkeyHotei19:34
KatolaZspecing: you should pretend to manage debian.org and create a CNAME for "deb"19:35
specingKatolaZ: yes, but then I have to add all names in the debian.org space myself19:35
specingand addresses19:35
KatolaZuh?19:35
KatolaZI don't follow19:35
KatolaZyou want deb.debian.org to point to your proxy?19:36
specingKatolaZ: if I pretend to manage debian.org, then I have to add A record for debian.org and who knows how many other records19:36
specingI don't think there is an easy way to say "if name is not found, query that other server"19:36
DonkeyHoteithere is19:37
DonkeyHoteijust use /etc/hosts19:37
KatolaZyeah19:37
KatolaZif it's not for a large number of machines, using /etc/hosts is the best way19:38
specingDonkeyHotei: then I have to maintain early /etc/hosts on all machines19:40
DonkeyHoteiearly?19:41
DonkeyHoteiyou're not making sense19:41
specingearly = to have installation use the new addresses19:43
specingbetter to have an override at the local DNS server19:43
DonkeyHoteithen override it at the dns server using /etc/hosts19:44
DonkeyHoteiwhat's so hard about that?19:44
specingare you serious?19:46
specinghmm could this actually work, does BIND even query /etc/hosts?19:46
specinggotta try19:46
DonkeyHoteidnsmasq does, unbound does, why not bind?19:47
specingit does not work19:48
specingwait, why am I using BIND19:51
specingwasn't there some proven correct DNS server written in Ada?19:51
specingHow much of stuff gets downloaded from deb.debian.org, anyway?20:06
fsmithredspecing, any packages that we didn't change to remove systemd, so around 99% of the repo20:07
specingso adding a proxy mirror for devuan did exactly nothing?20:08
fsmithredsorry, I don't know the answer to that20:08
fsmithredthe 1% of packages from devuan are pretty important20:09
specingmy devuan mirror cache is 500MB right now20:09
specingthat includes ascii and testing20:09
fsmithredthat's just the packages you installed?20:09
specingdisregard this, I am  illiterate20:10
specing  rewrite /merged/pool/DEVUAN/(.*)          http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/devuan/pool/$1;   rewrite /merged/pool/DEBIAN-SECURITY/(.*) http://deb.debian.org/debian-security/pool/$1;   rewrite /merged/pool/DEBIAN/(.*)          http://deb.debian.org/debian/pool/$1;20:10
specing^in amprolla config20:10
specingthis is actually even better20:10
specingas I can rewrite deb.debian.org returned by mirror server20:11
specingto my local server20:11
specingWill openrc as init work well in ASCII?20:16
fsmithredfrom what little I've seen, it works fine20:17
fsmithredall I've done is tried choosing it during installation and also making live isos with openrc. Works in both cases.20:18
fsmithredworks=boots20:18
xinomilois there a beowulf image for arm (raspi3)?20:30
golinuxxinomilo: Ask on #devuan-arm20:38
xinomilotried to, but can't go into that channel20:38
xinomilo"can't join channel"20:38
golinuxThen query #parazyd20:39
golinuxand ask to be allowed in or just ask the question20:39
golinux(forget the #)20:40
specingAlright, I've added some more stuff to my devuan proxy20:41
KatolaZxinomilo: there is no beowulf image20:58
KatolaZexcept for the unstable installer for i386, amd64, and ppc64el20:58
Centurion_DanKatolaZ: we should try building debian-installer for arm too.20:59
KatolaZI have tried Centurion_Dan but there are issues with u-boot21:00
Centurion_Dan ok... we'll have to fix them then.21:01
specingGRUB install failed https://linx.li/s/devuangruberror1.png21:03
fsmithredspecing, third to last line tells you what to do21:04
fsmithrededit /etc/default/grub21:04
specingI did that, I am just telling you that you need to fix the installer so this does not happen again21:05
fsmithredI thought that worked in ascii. Or are you installing beowulf?21:10
specingno, I am installing ascii right now21:12
specingfor the 10th time21:12
specingLooks like 10th time was the charm, I am now booted into a working devuan install21:22
specingsurprised I did not have to modify fstab for it21:22
fsmithredspecing, how big is the install?21:31
specingfsmithred: just with console utilities, ssh and vim: 565MB21:36
specing(btrfs lzo compression - for vim it was turned off though)21:37
specinghad to edit fstab and I can't stand nano21:38
specingalso added tmpfs on /tmp21:39
specingno idea why this is not default21:39
specingI have updated my devuan on btrfs post21:49
furrywolfurl?21:52
specingfurrywolf: probably this https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=14462#p1446222:27
specingfrom #d1g-users:22:59
specingThere is no distro installer that could produce the exact setup I want (btrfs on lvm on luks, with not partition tables underneath). Fedora's anaconda requires 3 GB RAM minimum and cannot even do /boot on btrfs. I don't recall anymore what SUSE's problem was. Devuan's installer apparently insists on having regular partitions underneath LUKS and does not support setting btrfs-specific mount options. So my23:00
specingdistro installation plan goes as follows:23:00
specing- install normally in VM to a disk in tmpfs23:00
specing- copy filesystem contents to real disk and fix grub configs23:01
MinceRthis method might work too >> https://www.debian.org/releases/oldstable/amd64/apds03.html.en23:01
specing# mke2fs -j /dev/sda623:05
* specing laughs all the way to /lost+found23:05
specingjokes aside..23:05
specingLooks like a good tutorial, I will save it for some other time23:06
specingsince I now have a working install obtained by regular methods23:07
specingThere are two more problems, one on shutdown (with OpenRC):23:08
specinghttps://linx.li/kn2ru2ws.png23:09
specingSecond when unlocking LUKS in initramfs, the screen is not properly cleared before the password prompt is displayed: https://linx.li/devuanlukstext.png23:11
specingor perhaps some log is being printed at the prompt, not sure23:11
specingproxy mirroring "howto" updated as well: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=14502#p1450223:36
fsmithredspecing, I don't think I've ever seen the screen cleared when asking for the luks passphrase23:39

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