libera/#devuan/ Sunday, 2020-03-29

Guest72323g4570n: i'm in #devuan-mx00:04
golinuxGuest72323: There is also now #devuan-es00:05
g4570nhola Guest72323 estamos en #devuan-es :)00:05
Guest72323ok00:05
golinuxg4570n: Ha! Beat you!00:05
g4570ngolinux: xD00:06
fsmithredhow do I figure out why it takes half a minute for the system to respond when I give the root password?00:30
fsmithredin a terminal on the desktop.00:30
fsmithredOnly happens in the i386, not the amd64. Both VMs.00:31
rrq1) tcpdump of external interface, 2) "top -d 0.2"00:32
rrqfor a VM it might be the host's file system as well00:32
Guest72323golinux: don't neglect yur garden00:32
Guest72323*your*00:33
rrqand the VM might sit in the swap00:33
meep_____Guest72323, "You're"00:35
Guest72323nope: your...00:37
Guest72323*your* garden00:37
Guest72323instead of *yur*00:37
Guest72323bye :)00:37
MinceRTheiyr're00:38
meep_____Mah00:39
Guest72323?00:40
meep_____Muh garden00:40
Guest72323running away from here!00:40
Guest72323aitor fled #devuan00:41
fsmithredtakes about 30 seconds for the desktop to come up after the login screen00:47
fsmithredeverything else seems to work normal speed00:47
koollmanfsmithred: 30s might be some dns request and timeout, or some other network related thing00:49
fsmithredwhy would dns be involved?00:49
fsmithredoh00:49
fsmithredit might00:49
fsmithredI should get out of my chair and use the keyboard that's attached to that computer instead of doing it over vnc00:50
koollmanI don't know your setup. but 30s is a really typical network timeout :)00:51
fsmithredthat didn't help00:51
koollmanmaybe it's trying to log the hostname of the remote access, and that takes 30s to fail00:51
fsmithredlocal login is the same00:51
koollmanor you have something in your pam setup that takes 30s to fail, too00:51
fsmithredmaybe. Two nearly identical installs, only the i386 has the problem.00:52
fsmithredI'll make a live iso and put it on usb to see if it's the same.00:52
meep_____Netbsd might be better for that kind of hardware00:58
* golinux missed greeting aitor. Was in the garden!00:59
meep_____What man page contains the codes for what each of these %n does?01:09
meep_____sysctl -w kernel.core_pattern=/var/crash/%t.%p.%u.%e.core01:09
meep_____I knot t is time, p is program name, u is user, and e is PID01:10
meep_____But where is the documentation01:10
rrqman core01:15
meep_____Is there are reason not to enable ulimited size core dumps for everybody on the system?01:15
bpmedleymeep_____ : Imo, depends on your users.  Will the disk get filled up with tons of core dumps?01:38
meep_____Not any more than i can clean out03:12
meep_____It's a extraordinary thing for programs to crash03:13
meep_____On my systems03:13
meep_____So if it happens I want to know why03:13
Hurgotronmeep_____: reproducible issue? Last time I had programs crashing / segfaulting I had bad memory. That took me a LONG time to find out. Been using ECC memory whereever possible since then...03:41
meep_____That could explain some crashes03:47
meep_____But like i said, not happening often enough03:48
meep_____The worst thing is when it happens on a virtual machine container on a server that has ECC03:48
meep_____Like the other day03:48
meep_____My Prosody server crashed 2 times03:48
meep_____By the time i turned on core dumps i has not happened since03:48
meep_____To this day the issue has not reproduced03:48
meep_____It worries me when I have ECC ram, and an internet facing daemon is segfaulting03:49
ShorTiewho ever decided to put all that gnome junk with ssh is kinda conceited, imho13:06
ShorTiewhy oh why is what i ask ??13:09
cosurgiShorTie: which ssh package depends on gnome junk?15:49
sixwheeledbeastaskpass-gnome was split out to remove dependency on GTK15:59
MSIVITALER^3I_Im curious does the devuan project hve any interest in FSF FSDG17:24
fsmithredMSIVITALER^3I_, we've discussed the idea of adding a libre branch to the repo so that people could install that way if they wanted. But that's a long way off. Too much other stuff to do first.17:38
Guest25177MSIVITALER^3I_: *Im curious does the devuan project have any interest in FSF FSDG*18:36
Guest25177the answer is: yes.18:37
Guest25177there are some devuan derivatives focused to this goal18:38
Guest25177today i'm reading some documentation about docker, because i've never used it18:39
Guest25177i installed docker.io and run "docker images -a" without results18:40
MSIVITALER^3I_ok sounds good. Cheers for fast feedback19:21
Guest58982for example: heads, ethertics and gnuinos... another one gone away?19:45
Guest58982maybe dynebolic, in a future19:51
golinuxaitor never stays for long . . . :(19:55
meep_____ยป <sixwheeledbeast> askpass-gnome was split out to remove dependency on GTK20:47
meep_____hey, that's actually an issue i'm trying to solve too20:47
meep_____sixwheeledbeast: if you find out a solution to revert it back to the gimp toolkit instead of the gnome toolkit please ping me20:48
meep_____Or what package is doing that20:48
meep_____I think it's pinentry20:48
meep_____But i'm not sure20:48
sixwheeledbeastyou should be able to check what the packages depend on20:49
meep_____The problem is i don't know what the binary is for the gnome popup that asks you for your key20:51
aitorgolinux: i'm here20:52
blebin xfce, how do you turn off the xlock/xscreensaver thing which prompts you for a password whenever it wakes up from sleep?20:56
blebI have set "disable screen saver" in screensaver preferences, but the lock screen still comes up when waking up.20:56
fsmithredbleb, check power manager settings20:58
furrywolfyou have to do it in like four places in the power management settings too20:58
blebi disabled the xfce power manager in order to get suspend working20:59
fsmithredI've never seen it as the default setting20:59
fsmithredbleb, did you install xfce from the tasksel menu in the install iso? Or did you install it in pieces?21:00
blebfsmithred: the install iso21:00
blebbeowulf21:00
fsmithredok, so nothing should be missing21:00
fsmithredassuming you selected a mirror21:00
blebyes21:01
fsmithreddid you log out of desktop after changing power manager settings? That might be necessary. Not sure.21:03
fsmithredI would go through all the settings again.21:03
fsmithredmeep_____, maybe gnome-keyring or ssh-askpass-gnome21:04
blebi can't access the xfce power manager settings without enabling xfce power manager, which causes suspend to stop working21:04
blebi think it's caused by /etc/acpi/lid.sh21:04
fsmithredthat's odd.21:04
fsmithredI have power manager enabled and can suspend fine21:05
fsmithredI do have to select it from the logout menu - does not happen on lid close21:05
blebif xscreensaver is running, it runs xscreensaver-command -deactivate which i guess must hook into xlock or something21:05
bleband for some reason xscreensaver was running even though it was disabled in xfce settings.  i will try rebooting and see if xscreensaver still runs in the background.21:06
masonThis is where IMHO desktop environments are more trouble than they're worth.21:06
blebfsmithred: maybe suspend worked but i had to disable xfce power manager to get suspend on lid close working21:06
fsmithredI lock the screen with xscreensaver, but I don't let it run21:06
fsmithredoh, that could be21:07
blebyeah so xscreensaver is running in the background again after rebooting21:09
bleband it's locking again when i open the lid21:09
blebso something is starting xscreensaver21:10
blebpstree has it branching off from xfce4-session-+-Thunar---2*[{Thunar}]21:12
fsmithredlook in Session and Startup, Autostart applications21:12
blebah yeah21:12
blebScreensaver (Launch screensaver and locker program)21:13
blebthat was checked21:13
blebi will uncheck it and that should fix it21:13
fsmithredthat should help21:13
* enyc meows21:14
* furrywolf pets the meowing21:28
blebyup all is well21:43
meep_____Does anybody know where I can get an aarch64 laptop?22:28
meep_____I type that search term into amazon or ebay and duckduckgo and all i get is garbage X86 desktops22:29
meep_____Running windows22:29
specingmeep_____: pinebook?22:30
specingolimex has a laptop as well22:30
meep_____no not a pinebook22:34
meep_____I need something to replace the IBM t/6022:34
meep_____something with a real keyboard and built to last at least 6+ years22:34
meep_____not something designed to be a macbook clone22:35
specingso like another T400?22:35
specingT60*22:35
specingget it on ebay22:35
meep_____my computers are investments not disposable cheapo plastic products22:35
meep_____yeah, sorta like that except not intel based22:36
specinggood luck, then22:36
meep_____that obscure huh?22:37
meep_____ok where can I learn how to design a replacement motherboard then?22:37
meep_____the closest thing to what i need is the Theombra Systems Haiku evaluation board22:39
specingmeep_____: the hardest part is the case22:39
specingyou can take a premade laptop board and create a "real laptop" around it22:39
meep_____specing: If I am going to design my own motherboard I'd just re-use surplus IBM T60 parts22:40
specingokay then22:40
specingStart small22:40
meep_____but yeah, I can't use pop in a theombra mobo22:40
meep_____into a t6022:40
meep_____my biggest complaint about the theombra is that it doesn't have socketed DRAM22:41
meep_____it's on the compute module22:41
specingUsually that's because the processors themselves don't support more22:41
meep_____I don't mind having the CPU on a card, but in the future i might want tochange the ram22:41
specingfor ARM you have to take a thunderX if you want e.g. 64GB RAM22:41
meep_____I don't see such a limitation for the RK339922:42
meep_____Memory:22:42
meep_____    Dual channels 64-bit DRAM controller22:42
meep_____    Support DDR3/DDR3L, LPDDR3, LPDDR422:42
meep_____http://opensource.rock-chips.com/wiki_RK339922:42
specingrk3399 has max 4 gb iirc22:42
meep_____are you sure?22:44
meep_____hmm22:44
specingSupport up to 2 ranks (chip selects) for each channel; totally 4GB(max) address space. Maximum address space of one rank in a channel is also 4GB, which is software-configurable 32bits/64bits data width is software programmable22:44
specinghttp://www.rockchip.fr/RK3399%20datasheet%20V1.8.pdf22:45
meep_____thanks22:45
meep_____do you know of any other aarch64 cpus with big-little arch and decent hardware offload capabilities?22:46
specingyes22:46
specingThunderX22:46
specingActually, that one might be just big22:46
specingit's a server cpu line22:46
meep_____i don't know if that has what i need22:47
meep_____power wise22:47
specingsome cpus have configurable TDP22:47
meep_____the reason why i wanted big-little was because this is for laptop usage22:47
specinglike POWER922:47
meep_____a lot of the time the system is very little usage with momentary spikes22:47
meep_____it would begood to turn some cores entirely off except during peak loads22:48
tuxd3v_meep_____, for rk3399 you have already rockpi4, and its supported with devuan :)22:50
tuxd3v_but its a sbc22:50
specingmeep wants a real laptop22:51
* tuxd3v_ tuxd3v also wants one :)22:51
specingforget about it, just stock up on t40022:51
meep_____hmm22:52
meep_____maybe i could deal with 422:52
meep_____but I would be very happy with 8GB DDR4 ECC22:53
specing4?22:53
meep_____4 gigssystem memory22:53
specinghaha, ECC in laptop... good luck22:53
meep_____yeah22:54
meep_____I never poweroff it off22:54
meep_____sandby->on_standby->on22:54
meep_____i will have very high uptimes22:54
meep_____and if I could use aarch64, i wouldn't have to put it on a dock charger every night22:55
meep_____*eery other night with fresh cells22:55
meep_____and I could passively cool, so no moving parts22:55
meep_____no motors to run22:55
meep_____no dust to get inside22:55
meep_____i already 100% passively cool the workstation I am talking to you on right now22:56
meep_____and semi-passively my faster workstation on the other room22:56
Guest81407let me open a parenthesis: i was wrong about the docker's "docker images -a" command above, it lists the *downloaded* images via "docker pull distro:version"22:57
meep_____i don't think stockpiling older thinkpad parts is going to work for many more years22:58
specingmeep_____: active cooling is fine, as long as it is easy to clean22:58
meep_____specing: but for laptop workloads active cooling is completely exccessive22:59
specingmeep_____: I don't think we'll get any real laptop running fully libre software anytime soon22:59
specingmeep_____: I guess we have different ideas about what laptop workloads are22:59
meep_____the only reason laptops need active cooling is either because they build them too thin for stupid marketing reasons or they run X8622:59
specingone of my T400 has been at 95'C for the past 20 hours with 6k rpm fan and another one blowing over the whole laptop22:59
specings/x86/have actually some performance/23:00
specingall the ARMs you can buy in various devkits are a joke, performance wise23:00
meep_____yes23:00
specingsure, some of them manage to outperform a 2008 intel these days23:01
meep_____but arm isn't isn't23:01
meep_____you get get decent arm cpus23:01
specingBut you can't get a Cavium cpu23:01
specingyou can't23:01
meep_____the SBCs are more or less toys for schools or eval boards23:01
specingyes23:01
specingthere is just no real market for high-perf arm23:02
meep_____I'm not looking for high-perf arm23:02
specing..23:02
meep_____i'm looking for better than what intel could do 10 years ago but in a power effiecent package suitable for a battery power budget23:02
meep_____I still use the Core2 Duo 1Ghz as a baseline cpu for testing if the software I use and develop should be reworked or not23:03
meep_____it said software can't perform at least somewhat comfortable to use on that machine, then I need to look elsewhere23:04
meep_____but going forward, I would appreciate a machine running the same efficient software, but with more headroom and better multitasking ability23:04
meep_____i only use open source software, so it's literally for me just a matter of obtaining a C cross compiler23:05
meep_____I do crazy high-perf workloads on the worstation23:06
meep_____or SSH into the workstation (or wiregaurd vpn) with X11 forwarding for doing compute heavy tasks23:06
specing> meep_____ | I still use the Core2 Duo 1Ghz23:06
specinguse cgroups cpu share limiter23:06
meep_____specing: why do you say a cavium cpu is unobtainable?23:07
specingtry to obtain it23:07
golinux(meep_____ and specing go down the rabbit hole)23:08
meep_____you have experience with this?23:08
specingmeep_____: no, but I tried looking it up online and couldn't find anything purchaseable/affordable23:09
specinghttps://www.phoenicselectronics.com/marvell/cavium-dev-kit.html23:09
specingwoo, devkit only $2799523:09
specingCHEAP23:09
meep_____then lets go back to the rockchip if nothing else23:15
specingno23:18
specingit sucks23:18
meep_____I've already tried contacting broadcom23:18
specingin 2020 I expect new equipment to support at least 32GB ram23:18
meep_____They refused to sell me a chip because I'm not a large corporation23:19
specingno doubt23:19
specingUntil they can do 32GB I'm just going to keep buying 2008 laptops23:19
specingsince they can't do anything better23:19
meep_____speccy, rockchip and cavium can't be only only vendors out there23:19
specingand in 2024 I'll upgrade my requirements to 64GB23:19
specingThey aren't23:20
meep_____that would be very nice if running 32gb of ram didn't use power power than accessing thessd23:20
meep_____you could keep your entire os + software in the memory cache23:21
meep_____*use more power than23:21
meep_____well maybe i should contact rockchip again23:22
meep_____I've heard they may be coming out with some more chips23:22
meep_____unless, please anybody else speak up if you know of a cpu vendor that will sell to me23:22
meep_____/whois speccing23:23
specingyou want just the CPU?23:23
meep_____also23:23
meep_____specing: yes23:24
meep_____and documentation23:24
specingok23:24
meep_____and also if there are some classes i can take on motherboard design23:25
meep_____I already know the basics of using KiCAD23:25
meep_____and I've used it to design control circuits for farm automation23:25
meep_____that I just plug into the expansion port of any old aarch64 SBC23:25
meep_____speak i2c and ttls serial to communicate with my boards23:26
specingmeep_____: https://octopart.com/search?category_id=4299&corearchitecture=ARM&corearchitecture=PowerPC&maxfrequency=1700000000&maxfrequency=1400000000&maxfrequency=1420000000&maxfrequency=1500000000&maxfrequency=160000000023:27
meep_____I want to learn so I can take this to the next step, which would be designing my own computers instead of custom PLCs23:27
meep_____Oh wow23:40
meep_____Ppc but low power23:40
meep_____If i was to do this23:57
meep_____I could probably keep the cost down by doing system-modules like theombra does23:57
meep_____With socketed ram23:57
meep_____That way I could put most of the super high speed stuff on a very small PCB23:58
meep_____Socket that into a lower density mainboard23:58
meep_____Like how the pentiums used to ship23:58

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