| yanmaani | Is there a specific mirror you guys know to be good that I can try? | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| gnarface | stand by yanmaani i'll answer the question in a second, afk | 00:00 |
| gnarface | short version is situation probably normal | 00:00 |
| markizano | yanmaani: can you do a pastebin of what you're trying to do? | 00:00 |
| yanmaani | markizano: I'm trying to update as normal | 00:01 |
| yanmaani | It says it lacks a bunch of packages ending in deb10u2. It has packages ending in deb10u1 in the list. | 00:01 |
| yanmaani | so I think my mirror is just out of sync | 00:01 |
| Jjp137 | yanmaani, what's the specific package(s) that 404'd | 00:01 |
| yanmaani | Jjp137: a whole bunch, but among others dnsutils bind9-host libbind9-161 libisccfg163 | 00:02 |
| yanmaani | http://mirrors.dotsrc.org/debian-security/pool/updates/main/b/bind9/libisccc161_9.11.5.P4+dfsg-5.1+deb10u2_amd64.deb <- it fails to fetch this one | 00:02 |
| gnarface | yanmaani: note that most devuan packages are actually unaltered debian packages served by redirect, and will not actually show up on the devuan mirrors if you surf to them directly with a browser (expected behavior) | 00:02 |
| Jjp137 | ah seems like the bind9 source package was updated very recently | 00:04 |
| gnarface | yanmaani: yea, and there's a build delay | 00:05 |
| markizano | note to self: don't upgrade to beowulf in the next few hours :D | 00:05 |
| markizano | LOL | 00:05 |
| gnarface | yanmaani: and the *-security and *-updates are in a different place | 00:05 |
| Jjp137 | to the point that even Debian's own packages website is still showing deb10u1 for libisccc-export161 | 00:05 |
| gnarface | do we have a mirror-status page of any sort yet? | 00:06 |
| gnarface | debian has a mirror status page where you can actually see which ones are behind at any given time | 00:06 |
| Jjp137 | I think onefang has one but I don't remember it at all | 00:07 |
| Jjp137 | not sure if this is the latest or whatever but found this looking through the devuan-dev mailing list: https://borta.devuan.dev/apt-panopticon/results/Report-web.html | 00:08 |
| Jjp137 | but I don't know if it actually tests for package versions | 00:08 |
| fsmithred | https://sledjhamr.org/apt-panopticon/results/Report-web.html | 00:46 |
| fsmithred | bind9 1:9.11.5.P4+dfsg-5.1+deb10u2 is in beowulf-security | 00:46 |
| fsmithred | maybe update and try again after a couple hours Jjp137 | 00:47 |
| Jjp137 | also yanmaani ^ | 00:47 |
| fsmithred | yeah, thanks | 00:47 |
| fsmithred | use deb.devuan.org not auto.mirror and not packages.devuan.org | 00:48 |
| Jjp137 | yeah I did hit a 404 with libisc-export1100 about an hour ago but I tried again and it worked | 00:49 |
| Jjp137 | probably some Debian mirrors lag behind and one might get redirected to one? idk how it all works | 00:49 |
| fsmithred | it wil probably get fixed with a re-direct | 00:50 |
| fsmithred | I mean packages.devuan (auto.mirror.devuan) will get re-direct to deb.devuan which is the current roundrobin | 00:50 |
| fsmithred | all the mirrors are copying pkgmaster.devuan.org and there is some delay | 00:51 |
| Jjp137 | oh I've been on deb.devuan.org for quite a while now | 00:52 |
| Jjp137 | but if a package was very recently uploaded to Debian (and Devuan doesn't need to fork it), is it possible for a short time that amprolla tries to get the updated package from a Debian package mirror that still has the previous version of the package? | 00:54 |
| yanmaani | Jjp137: just waiting fixed it, thank | 00:55 |
| yanmaani | s | 00:55 |
| Jjp137 | np | 00:56 |
| fsmithred | Jjp137, I think that kind of delay is possible, but the main repo updates every couple of minutes. | 00:58 |
| Jjp137 | okay | 00:58 |
| fsmithred | the devuan mirrors update slower than that | 00:58 |
| fsmithred | 2-4 hours, I think | 00:58 |
| Jjp137 | ah | 00:59 |
| fling | How do I get icecat? | 04:15 |
| golinux | FSF? | 04:17 |
| mason | fling: If you don't want to build it, there's an option noted here: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/401437/how-can-i-install-gnu-icecat-on-a-debian-based-system | 04:20 |
| fling | mason: how to build stuff on devuan? | 04:34 |
| fling | I only built things on gentoo | 04:34 |
| mason | fling: apt install build-essential and you'll have most of what you need | 04:35 |
| mason | fling: If you want to control packaging without getting too complex, also apt install stow | 04:35 |
| mason | If you want to read about Stow: https://www.gnu.org/software/stow/ | 04:35 |
| fling | thanks | 04:45 |
| fling | what is the latest repo/branch/tag? | 04:54 |
| mason | fling: For what software? | 04:55 |
| fling | wrong channel :D | 04:57 |
| golinux | For Devuan? Beowulf is stable release | 04:57 |
| fling | should I upgrade my ascii? | 04:57 |
| golinux | Eventually I suppose. I'm still on Jessie | 04:58 |
| golinux | Dragging my feet into ascii | 04:58 |
| mason | golinux: Will we point Amprolla at the LTS repositories? | 04:59 |
| mason | For that matter, do we already? | 04:59 |
| golinux | Already does | 04:59 |
| mason | Jessie LTS ended a couple months ago. Strech/ASCII should go to 2022. | 05:00 |
| golinux | Yes, in June | 05:01 |
| golinux | There were some updates after that. | 05:01 |
| golinux | But now very quiet | 05:01 |
| golinux | Those repos are archived | 05:02 |
| golinux | That happened while you couldn't make the meets. Probably was discussed on the ML | 05:02 |
| mason | Yeah, there was a good gap in there. | 05:04 |
| golinux | mason: Still here? https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20200701.113735.4bc472ac.en.html | 05:47 |
| mason | Yes. | 05:51 |
| mason | Ah, thank you. | 05:51 |
| fling | golinux: why still jessie? | 07:59 |
| openbsdtai123 | hi | 10:56 |
| openbsdtai123 | is it possible to have xlockmore or a deb to install it on a raspberry rpi3b ? | 10:56 |
| Joril | I fear you have to compile it yourself, xlockmore has been removed from Debian in 2012 | 11:24 |
| systemdlete | Which is more recent, rsyslog 8.24.0 (ascii) or rsyslog 8.1901.0 (beowulf)? | 12:12 |
| systemdlete | if beowulf's version is newer, then why is the version number... uh... ??? | 12:13 |
| Joril | Bullseye has 8.2006 | 12:13 |
| Joril | Maybe they switched to YYMM ? | 12:14 |
| systemdlete | and bullseye corresponds to... ? | 12:14 |
| Joril | Devuan 4 Chimaera | 12:15 |
| systemdlete | right, which I heard was Daedalus? | 12:15 |
| systemdlete | oh no | 12:15 |
| systemdlete | you're right | 12:15 |
| Joril | I guess Daedalus is for Devuan 5 :D | 12:15 |
| systemdlete | yeah. sid | 12:16 |
| fsmithred | no, sid=ceres | 12:16 |
| systemdlete | I thought ceres was the dev version | 12:16 |
| fsmithred | ceres=sid=unstable | 12:17 |
| fsmithred | always | 12:17 |
| systemdlete | ceres is whatever the current dev version is | 12:17 |
| systemdlete | it won't always be sid. | 12:17 |
| fsmithred | yeah, when bullseye goes stable, there will be a new testing suite. I don't know the name that debian will use. | 12:18 |
| systemdlete | https://devuan.org/os/releases | 12:18 |
| systemdlete | Oh, I don't know that. | 12:18 |
| fsmithred | yeah, thanks. I was one of the people to proofread that page. | 12:18 |
| systemdlete | Anyway, it sounds like rsyslog is going sort of to yymm releases | 12:18 |
| systemdlete | I just wish they'd drop the 8.x part though. It just creates more confusion. | 12:19 |
| systemdlete | Thanks Joril. I suspected it might be that, but with the 8. part in front it is kind of... half-done | 12:20 |
| systemdlete | The good part is that I hear the new rsyslog (8.1901) has new syntax -- maybe a type that actually works. I've been hacking at it for a day now in ascii and it seems like 1/2 of the syntax does not work or only a little bit. | 12:21 |
| systemdlete | the web pages are incomplete or a bit misleading. | 12:21 |
| systemdlete | So I removed the multi-bay rack that was creating all sorts of fun on the one PC and moved the drives into internal bays. All of the drives work normal and get speeds of 3.0gbps. | 12:24 |
| systemdlete | BUT | 12:24 |
| systemdlete | get this -- I hooked up the rack to my other PC here, externally because the box is not large enough for the rack, and all those old 500GB disks which I thought had died months ago... | 12:24 |
| systemdlete | um. They are all working inside the rack! | 12:25 |
| systemdlete | So, gnarface's theory about the controller on the mobo of the 1st machine may have been spot on. | 12:25 |
| systemdlete | I didn't believe it because, nominally, some of the disks were working. | 12:25 |
| systemdlete | And, strangely, the new disks are all working connected directly to the mobo sata sockets | 12:26 |
| systemdlete | I have assembled several raid arrays with 3 of the older drives which appeared to not work in the rack on the 1st machine. They failover properly as they are supposed to when I remove a drive or force a failure with mdadm. | 12:27 |
| systemdlete | I am thinking that gnarface was right on the money from the get-go. | 12:27 |
| fsmithred | that's not a rare occurrance | 12:28 |
| systemdlete | I wonder... I am thinking of ordering a pci sata controller, sticking it the box, reconnecting the raid and see if the thing works right | 12:28 |
| crashoverride | occurence | 12:29 |
| crashoverride | unless you're talking about eyes that got really rancid. | 12:29 |
| fsmithred | huh, I thought this thing had spell-check | 12:29 |
| systemdlete | fsmithred is an independant thinker, that's why | 12:29 |
| fsmithred | too many years since my last spelling bee | 12:30 |
| crashoverride | :P | 12:31 |
| systemdlete | I've given up my own role as spelling and grammar nazi. It's a losing battle, especially as newcomers increasingly start writing and speaking English. I think we just make it more difficult for them to nitpick all of this. | 12:32 |
| systemdlete | Besides, I would not mind at all if English were a bit more orthogonal. | 12:33 |
| systemdlete | orthographic? | 12:33 |
| systemdlete | see, I don't even know | 12:33 |
| crashoverride | ahahaha | 12:34 |
| systemdlete | I have a brand new ASRock mobo here I could install and replace the asus board. Best part of that is it supports SATA III (6.0mbps) | 12:34 |
| crashoverride | on imgur there's a photo of a covenant baptist church sign saying: "Thou shalt no covid thy neighbor's life" | 12:34 |
| systemdlete | (appropriate, crashoverride) | 12:35 |
| fsmithred | lol | 12:35 |
| crashoverride | sorry for the offtopic :D | 12:35 |
| fsmithred | you think the asrock will be better than the asus? | 12:35 |
| crashoverride | statistically, better only for RMA | 12:35 |
| fsmithred | ah, yeah | 12:35 |
| systemdlete | not necessarily. But I'd think the sata ports would be in better order. | 12:35 |
| systemdlete | ooh. | 12:35 |
| systemdlete | really? | 12:35 |
| systemdlete | ASRock not good? | 12:36 |
| systemdlete | So, maybe better to order that pci card then? | 12:36 |
| fsmithred | my "no" is based on a single data point | 12:36 |
| fsmithred | try it before you spend money | 12:36 |
| systemdlete | fsmithred: One customer experience data point is all it takes. | 12:36 |
| systemdlete | how about you crashoverride? | 12:37 |
| systemdlete | Thing is, being as lazy as I am, I really don't want to do all the work of replacing the board, recabling, etc. | 12:37 |
| systemdlete | Popping in a cheap card seems easier | 12:37 |
| fsmithred | oh, you would need enough spare parts to hook up the board without putting it in the box | 12:38 |
| systemdlete | Besides, if I'm gonna replace the mobo, I want to get one of those nice cable management power supplies. They're pricey, but I hate having to try to hide extra cables I'll never use. | 12:39 |
| * systemdlete sees his credit card balance increasing. Oh well. | 12:39 | |
| systemdlete | spare parts? | 12:39 |
| systemdlete | It has a video card built in, sound, etc. | 12:39 |
| fsmithred | spare power supply | 12:39 |
| systemdlete | Oh, I get you. | 12:40 |
| fsmithred | borrow the peripherals just to test it | 12:40 |
| fsmithred | then you can decide if you want to go through replacing mobo | 12:40 |
| systemdlete | http://asrock.com/mb/AMD/970M%20Pro3/ | 12:42 |
| systemdlete | I wonder if I have a working spare PS around here though. | 12:42 |
| systemdlete | Yeah, it could be fun. I'd just have to find a place to assemble it all. | 12:43 |
| fsmithred | need ram, too | 12:45 |
| systemdlete | I actually have the 16gb ddr3 from the main box | 12:50 |
| systemdlete | you know, I really SHOULD have splurged and gone 64gb even if the board couldn't do it -- this asrock can. | 12:53 |
| systemdlete | I've hit the 32gb mem limit already. Funny how that happens. | 12:53 |
| systemdlete | Running lots of VMs to test with. | 12:54 |
| r3boot | Get an old hypervisor ;) | 12:54 |
| systemdlete | that will teach me for being cheap. | 12:54 |
| r3boot | ram is cheap in those things, plus you get all kinds of nice enterprisey features | 12:55 |
| systemdlete | (I can't help myself) | 12:55 |
| systemdlete | r3boot: Suggestions? | 13:02 |
| systemdlete | I just realized, fsmithred. Not only do I have spare ddr3 memory, I actually have a spare x6 CPU that used to be in my main box. | 13:03 |
| systemdlete | I just need the power supply. | 13:03 |
| r3boot | for a hypervisor? Check with (small) hosting companies. The average economical lifespan for a server is 5~7 years. Find one of those, and you can get them for the price of iron or free | 13:04 |
| r3boot | I picked up a dell r620 last christmas for free, with 2 x 6core xeon @ 2.2GHz + 256GB ram | 13:05 |
| systemdlete | you are talking about some sort of hardware box? | 13:05 |
| r3boot | yes, physical servers | 13:05 |
| systemdlete | hmmm. | 13:05 |
| systemdlete | How much will my power bill go up? | 13:05 |
| systemdlete | Will I be leaving the neighborhood in the dark? | 13:05 |
| r3boot | this box does 130W or so, idle | 13:05 |
| r3boot | so not that much tbh, atleast not for this configuration | 13:06 |
| systemdlete | I'll think about that. | 13:06 |
| r3boot | in .nl we also have companies like serverhome.nl, that allow you to buy ex enterprise stuff for consumer prices | 13:06 |
| systemdlete | where did you come across them? Craigslist? or some industry magazine? | 13:06 |
| systemdlete | ah, ok | 13:06 |
| systemdlete | what is the generic term I would search on? "Hypervisor" gets a lot of hits for Hyper-V and similar products (software) | 13:07 |
| r3boot | I have a bunch of servers iig; I got a dell r710 from serverhome.nl (2 x 6core, 96GB ram, 6T storage, ~1000 euros), and @ home I've got the dell r620 and a supermicro chassis ( 2 x 6core, 32gb ram, 16x2T hw raid) for free (company I worked for wanted to get rid of them) | 13:08 |
| systemdlete | That could be a lot of fun. | 13:08 |
| r3boot | the keyword is hypervisor-class servers; You can recognize those by the huge amount of ram that is in here by default | 13:08 |
| r3boot | plus things like sr-iov | 13:09 |
| systemdlete | ok, thanks again. I will consider it. | 13:09 |
| detha | is it just me, or is packages.roundr.devuan.org rather slow? | 13:14 |
| djph | yes | 13:24 |
| detha | djph helpful as always ;) | 13:25 |
| djph | *yes, it is | 13:25 |
| djph | I still haven't had enough coffee to be actively unhelpful :P | 13:26 |
| detha | right. So I can ask for help with $random plastic wifi router and a repeater? | 13:27 |
| djph | you can, but #networking is where you'll get the most abuse for it :D | 13:28 |
| r3boot | yeah, indeed | 13:29 |
| mn3m | Hi All. Quick question. Is there any issues with packages.roundr.devuan.org? Looks connection refused from several sources... | 13:42 |
| mn3m | It looks moved to deb.devuan.org . All is working there. Thanks ;) | 13:56 |
| user__ | Annoyances: new: user can't use ping, only with sudo. Even after neutering all policy files with my script from yesterday. Will check each script again in case there is a missed one. | 19:02 |
| user__ | New2: rtkitd causes high system load for no reason. Uninstalled package. Reference: https://askubuntu.com/questions/48888/why-is-rtkit-daemon-eating-100-of-my-cpu -- package author: Lennart P. | 19:02 |
| user__ | No effect on system so far. | 19:03 |
| user__ | And yes rtkitd is usually bumping pulseaudio thread priority so sound is "much more responsive" than under ALSA/OSS. Yes, yes. NO. | 19:03 |
| user__ | Anyone got ideas on how to tame ping? If it's not a policy? | 19:04 |
| nemo | user__: I know I can't ping without root on the freebsd server I have an account on. I assumed they were doing it at the device level | 19:05 |
| user__ | Right. That is wrong. There are two possible solutions: "secure" rate limited ping (one usually) wrapper, seen on Suns and elsewhere, and simply using ping the old way, where only root could use the fast ping options. | 19:07 |
| user__ | NO need to "improve" it. Me will now dis-improve it. | 19:07 |
| fsmithred | user__, dpkg-reconfigure iputils-ping | 19:08 |
| fsmithred | or possibly dpkg-reconfigure -u ... | 19:08 |
| fsmithred | brb | 19:09 |
| user__ | fsmithred: does not solve the problem | 19:10 |
| nemo | user__: I suppose if you like living dangerously you could make your own suid rate limited ping wrapper ☺ | 19:11 |
| user__ | There is no need since the usual linux ping already has rate limit for users. One per second | 19:11 |
| user__ | And now, mysteriously, it started workiong | 19:13 |
| user__ | I think someone is messing with my system | 19:14 |
| user__ | this is really going too far | 19:14 |
| user__ | https://stackoverflow.com/questions/37512291/how-is-ping-for-non-root-user-implemented-on-linux-distros this talks about filecap but filecap is not installed here | 19:16 |
| user__ | at this point I want a clear explanation why it did not work till now and now it does | 19:18 |
| user__ | so there is no filecap but there is getcap on beowulf | 19:19 |
| user__ | and this has for /bin/ping; /bin/ping = cap_net_raw+ep -- which is correct to permit ping as user | 19:19 |
| user__ | but why did it not work before this? | 19:19 |
| user__ | this system is very suspect of interference now | 19:20 |
| DPA | Ping used to be a suid binary, I think nowadays has a capabillity for the stuff it needs, but not sure which one. | 19:20 |
| DPA | Both is probably fine. For the latter, the fs needs to support attributes, and they have to be (and usually are) enabled. | 19:20 |
| DPA | Capabilities are a kernel feature, they don't need userspace programs to work. | 19:20 |
| DPA | I can't tell why it didn't work initially, something must have changed. You didn't remount the rootfs or anything like that? | 19:20 |
| user__ | no did nothing of the sort. googled meanwhile and kept trying ping. | 19:22 |
| DPA | That is very strange indeed... | 19:24 |
| DPA | Do you maybe have automatic updates enabled? | 19:24 |
| user__ | no | 19:24 |
| user__ | grep setcap /etc/init.d/* -> nada | 19:24 |
| user__ | where ARE the scripts which set up things at boot time? | 19:25 |
| user__ | I am so fed up of people breaking things left and right. | 19:25 |
| user__ | disabled all xfce4 terminal keyboard shortcuts, still switches tabs with Alt-Number -- can't use multi tab window with irssi. Used to work in wheezy and ascii. | 19:26 |
| DPA | user__: Those caps are applied by the kernel based on file system attributes. File system attributes are just as persistant as the file they are on. | 19:27 |
| DPA | They don't need to be reapplied after a reboot. | 19:27 |
| buZz | user__: just use xterm then | 19:27 |
| user__ | Ah. And where are these flags stored in the fs? | 19:27 |
| buZz | its a better terminal anyway | 19:27 |
| user__ | buZz: :) | 19:27 |
| user__ | xterm | 19:27 |
| buZz | less memory, less cpu | 19:27 |
| buZz | faster rendering | 19:27 |
| user__ | rxvt or bust | 19:28 |
| buZz | better in all accounts | 19:28 |
| buZz | xterm does 24bit colors and unicode | 19:28 |
| buZz | rxvt doesnt | 19:28 |
| user__ | true but I seldomly need colors and unicode | 19:28 |
| buZz | or features :D | 19:28 |
| buZz | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | 19:28 |
| user__ | Interesting I tried ping 127.0.0.1 and that worked 1st then ping localhost worked after that but ALSO ping router worked, did not work before that. Numeric ip router address in all cases. Trying to backtrace my steps to understand what turned it on. | 19:29 |
| user__ | So beowulf uses polkit, getcap / libcap, apparmor. Anything else? No chastity belts, nothing? Why did they stop so soon. I assume these things are grandfathered in from debian but ?! | 19:31 |
| user__ | DPA: I had polkit and libcap change on me after beowulf install from live iso using refracta, it worked fine for 2-3 days when I then installed a lot of things using aptitude and apt, and then it started behaving strangely, polkit policy files were probably modified, and so on. I suspected an intrusion and / or a trojaned package or two or three. | 19:32 |
| user__ | worked fine for 2-3 days means over 2-3 reboots at least too. | 19:33 |
| user__ | why is this whole security circus going on anyway? group and user permission based security works on huge systems, why are all these new toys needed? | 19:34 |
| user__ | I am beginning to sound like I'm going to go back to NetBSD for simple and works things. | 19:35 |
| user__ | ping -i for users used to be settable to 1 second or longer, now 0.2 sec. Why? | 19:37 |
| user__ | yet another way to block ping and other things: https://github.com/gliderlabs/docker-alpine/issues/253 -- see message from ncopa about net.ipv4.* in systcl.config | 19:39 |
| user__ | this is so crazy. There used to be the story about the cathedral and the bazaar but this is going too far. | 19:40 |
| fsmithred | user__, did consolekit get installed along the way? | 19:41 |
| user__ | I don't know. Looking. | 19:41 |
| user__ | no. | 19:41 |
| fsmithred | what stuff is no longer working? | 19:43 |
| DPA | user__: Do you have a link to the exact iso? Maybe I can take a look at it. | 19:43 |
| DPA | user__: I mostly agree that supplementary groups would in most case be sufficent and nicer for permission control, if tools and kernel interfaces | 19:43 |
| DPA | would have been written with them in mind. | 19:43 |
| DPA | The only limitation I don't like about unix permissions is how they can restrict program permissions or a users permission, but not | 19:43 |
| DPA | both at the same time. | 19:43 |
| gnarface | systemdlete: it's not 100% conclusive; there's a chance that a weakened aging power supply - one that's only barely too weak, but almost still pulls it's weight - might cause similar failure behaviors, but in that case i'd expect that total drive count would affect stability in the same way | 20:04 |
| gnarface | systemdlete: (like, in those cases you usually also sometimes get intermittent booting, and removing one optical drive seems to fix it, so at first you think it's the optical drive's fault) | 20:06 |
| gnarface | systemdlete: (for example) | 20:06 |
| systemdlete | There's one other thing I forgot to mention. The box that the array rack is connected to is not only a different (MSI) mainboard from the original machine (ASUS mobo), but the MSI system is running beowulf as opposed to ascii. | 20:59 |
| systemdlete | Today, I will install an ascii partition on the MSI system and see if I can at least partially reproduce the problems I was seeing on the ASUS system. | 21:00 |
| gnarface | for science! | 21:01 |
| systemdlete | :) | 21:02 |
| systemdlete | indeed | 21:02 |
| systemdlete | I mean, rather than speculating. | 21:03 |
| F_Sauce | Helllo all! | 21:39 |
| user__ | fsmithred: here? | 21:42 |
| user__ | I looked at what changed. One thing that changed is the mixer used to be the xfce4 supplied one and now it is the pulseaudio one. The xfce supplied mixer/volume control controlled pulseaudio before too. | 21:43 |
| gnarface | F_Sauce: if you have questions just ask, don't wait for permission | 21:47 |
| user__ | I assume at least one of the packages pulled in something bad.\ | 21:48 |
| user__ | Suggest an antivirus / etc one can run from the live system? I do not expect it to catch state trojans but it is a try. | 21:48 |
| user__ | State trojan = Germany's Bundestrojaner. | 21:49 |
| gnarface | clamav is easy enough to use | 21:53 |
| gnarface | will probably catch windows mail viruses at least | 21:53 |
| suavedandy | Guys. How do I install Wayland? | 22:00 |
| gnarface | hmm, good question | 22:01 |
| gnarface | suavedandy: the debian wiki page may still be accurate enough for this | 22:03 |
| gnarface | suavedandy: dunno though, haven't tried wayland myself | 22:03 |
| fsmithred | user__, xfce4-mixer no longer exists | 22:06 |
| fsmithred | I guess someone decided it was no longer needed since everyone uses pulseaudio. (not me!) | 22:06 |
| fsmithred | volumeicon-alsa is a reasonable substitute if you want volume control on the panel. | 22:07 |
| suavedandy | There's no Wayland. | 22:08 |
| fsmithred | apt install xwayland (maybe?) If you try it, let us know if it works. | 22:08 |
| suavedandy | No. | 22:08 |
| suavedandy | It's a compatibility layer for Xorg. | 22:09 |
| suavedandy | Sway isn't here either. | 22:09 |
| fsmithred | there are 161 packages with wayland in the name | 22:09 |
| fsmithred | no | 22:09 |
| fsmithred | that's not accurate - maybe half that many | 22:10 |
| suavedandy | So basically, there are no Wayland compositors other than, say, GNOME or KDE. | 22:10 |
| fsmithred | 53 | 22:10 |
| brocashelm | there's also enlightenment desktop | 22:10 |
| brocashelm | which uses wayland optionally | 22:10 |
| suavedandy | I guess. | 22:10 |
| gnarface | i see sway in ceres | 22:10 |
| suavedandy | No tiling WMs at all. | 22:10 |
| suavedandy | Wait. | 22:11 |
| suavedandy | Let me check the Backports. | 22:11 |
| gnarface | weston is present in beowulf too | 22:11 |
| gnarface | initial checks suggest this should all be identical to debian | 22:11 |
| gnarface | if it works there it *should* work here too | 22:11 |
| gnarface | and in the same way | 22:12 |
| brocashelm | debian's wiki speaks very fondly of wayland... | 22:12 |
| suavedandy | No Sway in the Backports either. | 22:13 |
| suavedandy | And I was planning to use a tiling WM. | 22:13 |
| gnarface | debian's wiki also lists enlightenment, which is present | 22:14 |
| suavedandy | Well, MAYBE you can set up KDE to behave like that but that's a lot of extra work and KDE is still mouse-focused. | 22:14 |
| suavedandy | Not only do I want to use keybinds more but also my touchpad sucks. | 22:15 |
| brocashelm | i only used enlightenment briefly when i was testing a gentoo install. i found it bloated | 22:15 |
| gnarface | well, the relevant part is that it should be working, according to all accounts, just none of us have tested it | 22:15 |
| suavedandy | Is there a Wayland package tho? | 22:16 |
| suavedandy | Have you tried Enlightment, guys? | 22:16 |
| gnarface | that is not a measurement of whether it is working or not, apparently | 22:16 |
| suavedandy | *Enlightenment | 22:16 |
| gnarface | i'm using enlightenment right now, just not with wayland | 22:17 |
| suavedandy | That's a wordy word. | 22:17 |
| brocashelm | i only like xfce of all desktop environments and shilland isn't supported. i hope xfce will end up being the based and redpilled de not to use it, but who knows what their devs think | 22:17 |
| crashoverride | brocashelm: debian has embraced "new stuff" way too easily in the last decade | 22:18 |
| crashoverride | wayland might not be as bad as systemd, but it certainly isn't the graal either. | 22:18 |
| suavedandy | I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. | 22:19 |
| brocashelm | crashoverride: it does not surprise me. ubuntu, red hat, and microsoft employees are maintaining debian packages | 22:19 |
| crashoverride | nope | 22:19 |
| suavedandy | Or a good thing. | 22:19 |
| crashoverride | as an alternative it is a good thing | 22:19 |
| brocashelm | wayland is not a problem as long as it's still a choice | 22:19 |
| gnarface | enlightenment isn't as bloated as the output of "free -m" makes it seem; it caches aggressively to scale up well but scales down almost as well | 22:19 |
| crashoverride | but so is Xorg | 22:19 |
| crashoverride | brocashelm: exactly | 22:20 |
| brocashelm | xorg might not be perfect (no software is), but i don't see a real reason to scrap it entirely for some meme compositor | 22:20 |
| crashoverride | yeah | 22:20 |
| suavedandy | Is Google involved in Debian? | 22:20 |
| crashoverride | well, the reason is "debian used to be old as fuck, so let's blame it on how complicated software is" | 22:20 |
| crashoverride | in what isn't google involved? | 22:21 |
| suavedandy | Shoot. | 22:21 |
| suavedandy | Google bad. | 22:21 |
| suavedandy | Always pokes its dirty hands into everything. | 22:22 |
| brocashelm | the less influence from poetteringshit (systemd, pulseaudio), gnome, red hat, fedora, wayland, etc., the better | 22:23 |
| gnarface | suavedandy: they make rust and chromium, notably | 22:23 |
| gnarface | suavedandy: and obviously firefox | 22:23 |
| gnarface | suavedandy: (well, less firefox these days) | 22:23 |
| suavedandy | That's obv not a good thing. | 22:23 |
| brocashelm | those things will only continue to stifle gnu/linux on the desktop because they aren't meant for stability | 22:23 |
| brocashelm | i guess yet another reason i use devuan over debian, aside from not using shitstemd. don't fix what isn't broken and keep it that way | 22:24 |
| gnarface | suavedandy: also there's nodejs a bunch of packges with "google* in the name for various web tool protocols and such but it's not clear how much of that is contributed by 3rd parties just to support google's products or by google themselves | 22:24 |
| suavedandy | Mozilla is also shaydaaay. | 22:24 |
| brocashelm | i hate mozilla | 22:24 |
| suavedandy | I heard all kinds of things about them. | 22:24 |
| brocashelm | but i can't get into chromeshit one bit | 22:24 |
| brocashelm | so i'm screwed | 22:24 |
| brocashelm | best case scenario is finding a fork i like | 22:25 |
| gnarface | alright, i'm as guilty of drifting off-topic as anyone, but let's try to keep the editorializing in -offtopic | 22:25 |
| brocashelm | end scene | 22:26 |
| suavedandy | brokashelm: Fix what isn't broken as long as you don't break anything. | 22:26 |
| suavedandy | Letter rong. Oof. | 22:27 |
| suavedandy | Oh, well. | 22:27 |
| suavedandy | I tend to avoid extremes. Not always. I either jump to extremes or not depending on the situation, really. | 22:28 |
| suavedandy | Like, I did indeed abandon YouTube seeing where it was going to. So I do make brash decisions sometimes. | 22:29 |
| suavedandy | It's complicated. | 22:29 |
| brocashelm | indeed. feel free to join #devuan-offtopic to continue the convo :) | 22:29 |
| suavedandy | That's rather sad that there are no tiling Wayland WMs. | 22:32 |
| suavedandy | And still no Greetd. | 22:33 |
| gnarface | well, but there is one it's just not in stable yet | 22:33 |
| suavedandy | Really? | 22:33 |
| gnarface | and there's two if you count enlightenment which can be put into tiling mode | 22:33 |
| gnarface | yes, and this is the 3rd time you've been told, read more carefully | 22:33 |
| suavedandy | Hmmmm. | 22:33 |
| gnarface | it's even ON that debian wiki page, which as far as i can tell is still completely systemd-agnostic for facts related to wayland/weston/xwayland/etc | 22:34 |
| suavedandy | You're talking about Weston, right? | 22:34 |
| gnarface | no i'm not talking about weston i'm talking about sway | 22:34 |
| gnarface | hah oh well... somewhat complicating the matter is that it was just taken out of the repo between now and the last time i said it | 22:35 |
| gnarface | i still have it here in my proxy even, but it just stopped showing up in pkginfo.devuan.org moments ago | 22:36 |
| gnarface | i swear to you it used to be in testing and unstable though | 22:36 |
| suavedandy | Hmmmm. I checked the backports for Sway before. Looks like it isn't backported yet then. | 22:36 |
| gnarface | it'll probably come back in a few hours | 22:36 |
| gnarface | i'd say just wait | 22:36 |
| gnarface | this is bleeding-edge stuff | 22:36 |
| suavedandy | Oof, edgy. | 22:36 |
| gnarface | you can keep an eye on package presence here: pkginfo.devuan.org | 22:37 |
| suavedandy | Better not cut yourself. | 22:37 |
| gnarface | well, like i said, i'm still using x11 (for this reason, though i haven't said it today that's not a secret) | 22:37 |
| user__ | fsmithred: what volume control is on the live beowulf iso panel? That's what I had on before pulseaudio mixer replaced it | 22:37 |
| gnarface | most of us here are still using x11 for reliability | 22:38 |
| suavedandy | I also remember Sway being in alpha. Tho I could be wrong. | 22:38 |
| fsmithred | pavucontrol | 22:38 |
| fsmithred | brb | 22:38 |
| suavedandy | Is Wayland still in alpha? | 22:39 |
| user__ | Didn't ubuntu drop wayland recently ? | 22:43 |
| suavedandy | Big oof. | 22:44 |
| user__ | Or someone else. Too many new features with bugs too many old required features neglected | 22:44 |
| user__ | mint? just a second | 22:44 |
| user__ | https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/01/xorg-will-default-display-server-ubuntu-18-04-lts 2018 | 22:45 |
| user__ | it all started in 2011 apparently https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=64650 | 22:46 |
| user__ | so in 7 years they did not manage to make it usable to the point where early adopters dropped it | 22:46 |
| user__ | fsmithred: pavucontrol is what I have on now | 22:50 |
| user__ | Before it was something else. | 22:50 |
| user__ | Not important. | 22:50 |
| user__ | bye for 2day | 22:51 |
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