libera/#devuan/ Saturday, 2020-10-17

yetiwho knows kilo?00:41
tuxd3vyeti does you have a nanopi R2S :P00:41
tuxd3v:)00:41
yeti"Kilo does not depend on any library (not even curses). It uses fairly standard VT100 (and similar terminals) escape sequences."00:42
yetihardcoded for vt100?00:42
yetiseriously?00:42
yetinah... pi0..4, bananapi-r1, cubietruck00:42
tuxd3vyeti, pi{0..4}?00:44
yetiyip00:44
tuxd3vawesome :)00:44
tuxd3vcan rpi4 be overclocked to 1.8Ghz or something like that?00:45
yetiI'd be more interested in underclocking00:45
yetihavent looked for overclocking00:46
tuxd3vhehehe, because of the heat?00:46
yetifrying pans!00:46
tuxd3v:D00:46
tuxd3vI am in a good damm dead end, with ananopi R2S..00:47
yetihttps://www.berrybase.de/media/image/97/66/2c/ID_85048_orig_600x600.jpg  <<<  even with that dress, they come near to painly temperatures...00:47
yetinot overclocked00:47
yetithat's trash by design00:48
yetibut the cheapest armish with 8G RAM00:48
yetiok... wirh netbsd... with linux they probaly will glow bright white00:49
yeti:-Þ00:49
masonNetBSD's a bit harder on hardware than Linux generally.00:49
tuxd3vactually netbsd is more advanced that what I tough, on ARM..00:50
onefangHow many terminal programs these days don't talk VT100?  Hard coding "fairly standard VT100 (and similar terminals) escape sequences." is actually a good idea.00:52
yetithats an opinion, not a fact.00:52
tuxd3vhttp://www.netbsd.org/releases/formal-9/NetBSD-9.0.html00:52
yetipi4 currently needs netbsd9.9900:53
masonNetBSD doesn't have a tickless kernel yet, so it doesn't sleep as cleanly, since we are comparing heat and power.00:53
masonI guess a tickless kernel can be opinion. :P00:54
masonyeti: What's your opinion on whether NetBSD's kernel has a fixed clock?00:55
stiltrMake sure you have the latest usb FW. Drops the temps considerably on the Pi4.00:55
tuxd3vmason, what was the card you brought?03:45
tuxd3vand AMD one, I searched for it, its a powerfull gard03:45
tuxd3vvery very nice :)03:46
masontuxd3v: gtx 1660 super03:54
tuxd3vwow, that is the upgrade of mine, a big upgrade.. I own a gtx 1060 &GB03:55
tuxd3v&GB -> 6GB03:56
tuxd3vlol o.003:57
systemdleteis ascii or beowulf 64bit time?04:47
systemdletewhen I size the struct timeval, it shows me it is 16, which means that the time_t field is 8 bytes.04:48
systemdletebut maybe that's because of alignment.04:48
systemdleteSee this short source:  http://paste.debian.net/1167546/05:03
systemdletewhen I compile this, and it does compile and run, I get output telling me that the tv_sec and tv_usec elements of the struct are 8 bytes each, and the overall size of the struct is 16.05:04
systemdleteMy understanding is that 64 bit time isn't official until about kernel 5.6.1 or so05:05
systemdlete(I'm trying to make sense of this)05:05
Matroxhas devuan patched dbus to not use machine-id?14:44
fsmithredMatrox, yes. You can control that in /etc/default/dbus14:49
Matroxfsmithred, isn't machine id necessary for dbus to work?14:50
fsmithrednope14:50
fsmithredu,14:50
fsmithredum14:50
fsmithredmaybe so.14:50
fsmithredthe patch changes the id every boot14:50
Matroxoh14:50
Matroxi might use that patch on gentoo14:51
fsmithredsome people are very happy to have it14:51
fsmithredyou know where to find our sources?14:51
Matroxno, i guess github14:51
fsmithredgit.devuan.org14:53
Matroxalright, will check that patch.14:53
fsmithredhttps://git.devuan.org/devuan/dbus14:53
Matroxalso some questions about devuan. does it use sysv init or something else? and also is libsystemd0 necessary on devuan? does it use elogind also (from gentoo)?14:54
fsmithredone sec.14:54
fsmithredsysvinit is default, but openrc and runit are available. So is s6.14:56
fsmithredfirst three are available in the installer14:56
fsmithredlibsystemd0 is required for some things, but it can be replaced with libelogind014:57
fsmithredI think the former still comes up first on debootstrap installs.14:57
fsmithredyes, we have elogind and we managed to get it into debian.14:57
fsmithredalso we have consolekit for uh, I think two desktops.14:58
fsmithredhttps://files.devuan.org/devuan_beowulf/Release_notes.txt14:58
fsmithred^^^ They are short.14:59
Matroxdebian with openrc sounds like a good thing15:00
Matroxwith elogind15:00
Matroxso you provide the necessary init scripts for every service right? (some distros say they support other inits, but in their packages they dont give you the initscripts for services, and tell you to write your own)15:01
fsmithredwe fork around 200 packages15:02
fsmithredthe rest get pulled from debian and automatically merged into our repo15:02
fsmithredsome debian devs have started dropping init scripts from the packages15:02
fsmithredwe are attempting to keep up15:02
fsmithredpulling the scripts from older versions15:03
Matroxalright thats nice.15:03
fsmithredalso trying to get debian devs to put them back15:03
Matroxyeah debian devs should offer init diversity15:03
Matroxin debian they tell me they don't have init files for sysv anymore15:04
fsmithredone thought for long term solution would be for all init systems to be able to use systemd service files15:04
fsmithredthey should not be saying that15:04
fsmithredit's a misrepresentation of the last vote15:04
fsmithredthey don't have to have them, they are not required. but they can be included.15:04
fsmithredmany still are.15:05
fsmithredI think most still are, or we would be in deep shit.15:05
Matroxi mean, since devuan already does all the work to keep those init scripts available.15:05
Matroxwhy can't they just take the work from devuan an merge it into debian, to offer more options15:05
fsmithredthat's just it. We mostly aren't doing any work to keep them.15:06
fsmithredthey are already there15:06
Matroxoh alright15:06
fsmithredwe inherit 99% of packages from debian. In fact, those packages aren't even on our servers.15:06
fsmithredinvisible merge happens.15:06
fsmithredso you only use devuan sources in apt15:06
Matroxfsmithred, is there a way to use systmed unit files with other inits?15:56
hagbard_Where would be the right place to propose (or even provide) forks of debian packages in regard to systemd-dependencies? I think the libsystemd version that wireshark-common depends on can safely be downgraded, so that libelogind can be used instead.18:48
hagbard_This would make wireshark, tshark (and the packages that belong to / depend from it) installable in testing and unstable.18:49
hagbard_Builds and runs just fine.18:49
golinux#devuan-dev18:49
golinuxor the -dev mail list18:49
hagbard_thx, i'll head over there18:50
golinuxwireshark has been a topic of conversation recently do that might already be in the works.  Check the dev1galaxy.org forum18:50
golinuxdo > so18:51
masonhagbard_: I'd suggest that removing that dependency entirely would be preferable.18:57
hagbard_Haven't tested that yet. And it would certainly require some more surgery (code, makefiles, build-config), than just to lower a version number in the control file.19:01
golinuxhagbard_: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20200825.214233.c6bab666.en.html19:10
golinuxhttps://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20200814.065450.f5e0da1e.en.html19:11
hagbard_hmm, there is said "Until there is a new version of elogind upstream, I am afraid I have no ideas of how to fix this."19:14
hagbard_But an idea exists, that seems to work out.19:15
hagbard_And the replies to the debian bug report don't read like they're in the mood to fix it over there.19:18
n4dirHi. If i quickly want to translate a word from french to english or german, is there a program for that (which is easy to set up) ?22:50
fsmithredyou don't want google to know what you're translating22:52
n4dirha ha. No, i don't mind that, but i usually don't have a web-browser open22:53
n4dirfor german-english i use ding, which does a good job. I think you can make it use german-french too, but that will get a bit messy22:53
fsmithredapt-cache search dictionary22:53
fsmithredtranslate is a package that does german/english22:53
n4diryeah, but i don't understand the results. got ispell, hunspell ans what not.22:54
n4dirand it seems some explain french words in french. But i am not sure about the names for such stuff22:55
n4dirlooks like ding is a backend for trans: /usr/share/trans/de-en22:58
fsmithredyou might find bilingual dictionaries, but to translate text you probably need to pay money or use goober22:58
fsmithredthey do a pretty good job these days22:59
fsmithredmuch better than 10 years ago22:59
n4diri just need single words.22:59
WafficusHi there, how do I change my timezone in Devuan on my current machine?23:00
fsmithredqstardict - International dictionary written using Qt23:00
fsmithredWafficus, dpkg-reconfigure tzdata23:01
WafficusI have Central timezone present, but I'd like to change it to EDT23:01
Wafficusthanks23:01
Wafficusnice that worked, thanks a ton fsmithred23:01
systemdleteis ascii or beowulf 64bit time?23:18
masonsystemdlete: Looks like the year 2038 problem is fixed as of Linux 5.6, so neither of those, unless there's some subtlety I don't know of.23:27
systemdletemason:  Thank you for your response.  If I compile this short snippet:  http://paste.debian.net/1167546/, I find that I get 8, 8, and 16 for output.23:28
systemdleteif library routines are passing in 8 byte (64 bit) values to the kernel for, say, timers and the like, then the kernel would have to be supporting 64 bit time, at least in this context.23:29
n4dirif i am not wrong: apt-get install dictd dict  dict-freedict-fra-eng23:30
systemdleteBut perhaps I am forgetting some things from my kernel internals classes23:30
n4dirthen: dict <french-word>; and i get the translation. Nice23:30
systemdlete(I had a 3b20 internals class, and a 2-week Amdahl UTS class, 30+ years ago)23:30
n4dirdict-freedict-en-fra; i tried first, but that would only take english words for <word>23:31
masonsystemdlete: Libraries can handle and convert things. Looking at this, one of the thing I found, for example, was from a year years ago, with Boost having 64-bit times.23:31
systemdleteboost?  Sorry, don't recall what that is23:31
masonsystemdlete: C++ libraries, a tier down from the standard C++ libraries.23:32
systemdleteah.23:32
systemdleteanything could be happening then.  But the timeval and timespec structs are standard C library mechanisms.23:33
masonsystemdlete: I see 8 bytes for time_t under Beowulf.23:33
masonsystemdlete: I'm not sure what the answer is. I found an article talking about Linux 5.4 and 5.6, and saying glibc-2.32 and newer, so I'm not sure what's happening with that 8-byte time_t.23:34
systemdletemason: Even if there are backend routines stuffed in between the libraries and the kernel calls, still, in order to be accurate, the kernel would need to support 64 bits, wouldn't it?  I don't see any practical way around that.23:34
masonhttps://itsubuntu.com/linux-kernel-5-6-to-fix-the-year-2038-issue-unix-y2k/ came up23:34
systemdletethanks!23:34
masonsystemdlete: Yeah, I don't know, but if you find something authoritative and enlightening, please share it, as I'm curious now.23:35
systemdleteit is almost as if the kernel devs and library support folks (if different) have been dropping small parts of the solution into place over time, rather than one clean cutover?23:35
masonsystemdlete: It sure looks like that.23:36
systemdleteI wonder what sorts of fallout that could be causing without many people realizing it.23:36
masonHopefully none if each change is compartmentalized.23:37
systemdleteAgain, if even ONE SINGLE routine passes a 64 bit arg to the kernel in a system call, then the kernel MUST be able to handle it, right?23:38
systemdletethat's my argument.  Not saying you are wrong, but I am feeling this a different way.23:38
masonsystemdlete: Just promise to tell me what you learn. :P23:39
systemdletewill do mason!  And thanks for the chat23:39
systemdletemason:  Different topic.  Any suggestions on decent development workbench for linux?23:40
systemdleteeclipse is one I know of.23:40
masonsystemdlete: vi and Makefiles - I'm a dinosaur23:40
systemdlete(me too, heheheh.  But I am hoping that a workbench will help sort out some header file issues I am running into.  It would be more convenient I think.23:41
systemdlete)23:41
n4dirnot really an IDE, more of an editor, but quite some liked geany back some years23:42
systemdletegeany... ok, thank you.23:42
n4dirif it is for C and the like, a few are recommended at the according sites (i forgot the names, but you will quickly run in them)23:42
n4dircode::blocks and codelite and anjuta is what i forgot. Found them here: https://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/Entwicklungsumgebungen/ systemdlete23:50
systemdletethanks again!23:51

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