libera/#devuan/ Tuesday, 2021-02-09

JohnGetTheCameraso has anyone had issues compiling ungoogled-chromium02:01
gnarfacei haven't tried, but if have maybe i can help you decipher the compilation error02:10
gnarfaceif you have*02:10
gnarfacedon't paste the whole thing here02:10
gnarfaceuse paste.debian.net unless you can pick just one line that's the summary of it02:11
JohnGetTheCamerai haven't had issues i was curious02:12
JohnGetTheCamerai'm thinking that the debian packages in OBS should be googd02:12
JohnGetTheCamera*good02:12
gnarfaceit's easy enough to try, but it might take a long time to find out whether it works or not.... maybe even more than a day, if you have an older computer02:16
JohnGetTheCameraah right02:17
JohnGetTheCamerahopefully the browser is the biggest thing i end up having on my computer02:22
gourhello, i'm running debian sid with xfce on my desktop and have no issues with its stability except that i'd prefer that i can do 'apt update' not so often. otoh, i'd like to switch to devuan to get rid of systemd, but wonder if devuan's Ceres is similar to Debian's Side when it comes to stability or you maybe recommend Chimaera (aka testing) for someone wanting less admin overhead and not so ancient pkgs as in 'stable' ?14:49
fsmithredgour, devuan is debian except for a couple hundred packages that we fork to remove systemd deps.14:55
fsmithredso the update/upgrade frequency will be the same14:55
fsmithredthere are people using chimaera and/or ceres and it seems to be in pretty good shape.14:56
gourfsmithred: ok, good. i'm in general happy with stability of 'unstable', so does 'testing' offers similar stability along with decent freshness (except during the freeze period)?14:58
fsmithredyes. Things move from unstable to tesing after I think it's two weeks14:58
fsmithredI like to have testing and then unstable pinned to a lower priority, so if I need to get a fix, I can get it quickly14:59
fsmithredThat said, I haven't had to pull anything from unstable except to test some package fixes.14:59
gourin case of ceres, what would be recommended max. period to do 'apt update' ?14:59
fsmithredno clue14:59
fsmithredhang on and I'll give you some numbers15:00
gourahh, that's a good tip - use pinning15:00
fsmithredok, I went from Nov 12 until today to upgade a chimaera VM, and the upgrade had more than 700 packages15:01
gourthanks...which one is your 'daily driver' ?15:02
fsmithredon another box, I went from Jan 2 to Jan 26 and I think it was a little over 300 packages15:02
fsmithredbeowulf here on the desktop15:03
gourany backports?15:03
fsmithredchimaera on the laptop that doesn't get used for a lot. video conference, occasional VM boot a live iso15:03
fsmithredI don't think I'm using any. Hardware is 9-10 years old, so I'm not in need of new kernel.15:04
fsmithredyou thinking of a fresh install or migrating your sid to ceres?15:04
gourmy hw is also old, i7 2.8G, ancient graphic etc.15:05
fsmithredand btw, it's safter to use codenames than to use 'testing' or 'unstable' in sources.list15:05
gourprobably i'd the former, not sure if migration would work15:05
fsmithreddebian testing will go stable before devuan does15:05
* gour nods15:05
fsmithredmigration might work but might give some trouble.15:06
fsmithredif you want to try it, I suggest that you do not upgrade for some time before you do the migration.15:06
fsmithredsometimes the devuan packages are a little behind the debian packages15:06
fsmithredfresh install is less stressful15:07
gouri'll try to do fresh install on my spare (netbook) machine first15:07
fsmithredwe don't have any chimaera isos yet15:08
fsmithreddo a minimal beowulf install and then upgrade and then add what you want15:08
gourok, i did the same with sid15:08
fsmithredit's also possible to do a debootstrap install with any of the live isos15:09
numzobi did not know that15:09
fsmithred:)15:10
buZzlol https://surrounder.nl/systemd_on_devuan.png15:46
* numzob is still waiting for BSD systemd15:48
r3bootthere is https://uglyman.kremlin.cc/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=systembsd.git , but that didnt catch on15:56
numzobyikes!  I was *kidding*15:57
daimonhey all I am doing a system install tomorrow and am interested in a system that uses neither systemd or X11, the system is presently gentoo but I really do not have the time to mess about for that long16:03
daimoncan I install devuan and force it to never instal-l x11?16:04
r3bootinstall a minimal release and make sure you dont install anything which is dependent on xorg16:05
daimonI really only require docker, some ldap things and a few other bits and pieces, but I find with well anything that is not gentoo, they always seem to want to drag in bundles of graphical and x11 libraries despite not being required16:05
daimonyes my problem is the packages for most operating systems seem to have built with xorg if they had the option16:05
r3bootright, well, the burden of checking them is on you16:05
daimonso no oiption?16:06
daimonbecause as I said the default seems to be 'if it supports x11 we will bundle it'16:06
daimonis devuan the same in this respect?16:06
r3bootonly gentoo has use flags, the rest does not16:06
fsmithreddaimon, it might help to install without Recommends16:06
fsmithredthat will reduce some cruft16:06
daimonI will give it a shot in a vm, I am so hoping I do not have to do a gentoo build in the office tomorrow -_-16:07
fsmithreddependencies in devuan are essentially the same as in debian, except for systemd16:07
fsmithredouch16:07
r3bootdocker and ldap-utils dont depend on xorg iig16:07
daimonwhile talking over the plans for a large development project with a contractor, you know the fun stuff ;)16:07
daimonr3boot, my problem I think came mostly from midnight commander, zfs and tmux16:08
daimonthat all seemed to drag in x11 somehow16:08
daimonat least in ... I think it was mint? its been a couple of years since the default OS was on that system16:08
fsmithredapt --no-install-recommends install <package> <package> ...16:08
daimonfsmithred, just in hyperv now starting an install! lets see how we go16:09
fsmithredin the installer, when you get to the tasksel window that has desktop environments and other stuff listed, un-check most or all of them.16:09
fsmithredI like to keep standard system utilities16:09
fsmithredthings like bzip2, lsof...16:10
fsmithreddaimon, are you familiar with the debian installer?16:10
daimonfsmithred, well I managed to get it to install over rs232 emulation on a freebsd host, so I assume I can work it out :)16:11
daimonI am going to pull ftp://mirror.leaseweb.com/devuan/devuan_beowulf/installer-iso/devuan_beowulf_3.0.0_amd64-netinstall.iso16:11
fsmithredthat'll work16:12
daimonoh the only other thing is ZFS16:12
daimonany issues I should know about?16:12
fsmithredyeah, but I don't know them16:12
daimon;)16:12
fsmithredmaybe we can catch the attention of mason16:12
fsmithredalso some discussions on the forum for zfs root16:13
daimonah me and mason know each other from a mutual social room16:13
daimonI thought was a pure BSD man16:13
fsmithredpretty sure it's not a choice in the installer16:13
fsmithredsomehow we lured him here16:13
daimonI do not mind the root being a standard XFS/ext16:13
fsmithredok, so you can add stuff later16:14
daimonthough I must admit on the note of zfs/ext I have never really researched either, I tend to pick XFS for no really valid reason16:14
daimonxfs/ext *16:14
fsmithredwhat you are used to16:15
fsmithredfor me, linux is pretty easy, windows is hard and confusing16:15
daimonwell my linux box is gentoo, which is a XFS root and a couple of zpools mounted under /mnt/16:15
daimonbut I have no reason for picking XFS and not ext4, I really do not know the difference between the two16:15
daimonperformance and reliability wise16:15
daimonwhich would you choose?16:16
fsmithredI always use ext16:18
fsmithredwikipedia says xfs is good for parallel i/o and for large files16:18
daimonthe last linux I used was ext as well I think extfs2 ... redhat 516:18
fsmithredlol16:18
fsmithredomg, yeah I started with redhat 7, ext216:19
fsmithredif I used a different filesystem I would have to learn new commands16:19
daimonwell the system is comprised of 3 magnetic and 1 solid state drive, my way or working was to install a very small install < 20G on the SSD, therefor allowing some space for ZFS cache for a raidz1 of the 3 magnetics16:19
daimonso I suppose in reality it would not matter what the heck the base os was based on, only the zpool's get abuse16:20
daimonI keep meaning to get an nvme for the system to make a more effective slog/l2arc16:20
daimonI would assume with the long history of linux, that ext is the more ... 'supported' of the base file systems16:21
n4dirin other IRC channels i hear a lot about all kind of filesystems for a few weeks now, so there seems to be a hype. I don't listen much, so that is all i can say.16:22
n4dirregarding ext being more "supported", i mean16:22
fsmithredprobably btrfs talk16:22
daimonwell me and fsmithred was using a derivative of ext while crying trying to deal with redhat and ppp I imagine16:23
daimonis btrfs a thing still, I thought they set it on fire and kicked it down the hill16:23
n4dirsounds familiar, but i really don't listen, as i don't really care for filesystems.16:23
fsmithredno, it's still around and still being developed, I think16:23
daimonok lets give the boot a try16:25
daimonwhat is wrong with a good old 340x480 rs232 comaptible boot screen16:25
daimoninteresting never seen that option before16:29
daimonhttps://i.itsosticky.com/5wb3tl.png16:29
fsmithredyou want yes?16:30
fsmithreddefault is no, which is the old way16:30
daimonhonestly if I could I would choose to have the base system in /bin,/sbin etc and all things added later in /usr/local/{s}bin16:31
* daimon shows his freebsd jade16:31
daimonbut no I was just remarking on never seeing that as an option before (in memory at least)16:31
n4diri don't think linux systems has the clear distinction between base system and third-party as the BSD systems hae16:31
n4dirhave16:31
fsmithredyeah, I'm pretty sure we added that question16:32
daimonthey do not, when you tell a linux system to remove evertthingit really does where as a bsd system will just remove the 'non BSD core' :P that was fun to learn all those years ago16:32
n4diryup, like that. There is no way back.16:33
daimonoh this is nice did you add this option too https://i.itsosticky.com/poq687.png ?16:33
n4dirway back to something one could call "base system"16:33
daimonI like how there is now an option to get automatic updates and it can be narrowed to just security updates16:41
daimonwhat is 'consule productivity'  https://i.itsosticky.com/e4uuqf.png I assume this would be tmux, zfs etc?16:42
daimongot it: http://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2271 ta16:43
daimonno nmap or socat? kinda suprising16:43
n4dirconsole productivity seems to be everything and the kitchen sink. Stuff like mc, gpm, links, what not16:45
n4dirzsh.16:45
daimonI hope its the nox11-mc16:45
daimonas it does have a GTK wrapper16:46
daimonand I just seen the package for libx11 install ..16:46
daimonhttps://i.itsosticky.com/2oyvq7.png16:48
daimonof course it bloody did16:48
daimonis there a way I can blacklist a package from ever being installed under any circumstance16:48
daimonI did not set passwords yet root/nopass is not working as the login?16:51
r3bootdaimon: google apt + hold16:51
r3bootthat'll give you instructions on how to configure it.16:52
daimonsweet and the fact I set no passwords during the install yet root / nopassword is denied?16:52
daimonon the local terminal not via ssh16:52
n4dirno root password probably means sudo gets configured16:52
daimonno users configured either16:52
n4dirwell.16:53
daimonat least it booted which was the main point, but that is pretty crappy and not how pam should work by default16:53
daimonill throw it through the install later and do the absolute minimum install and see if I can hold libx11 and use, 15:08, <fsmithred> apt --no-install-recommends install <package> <package> ...16:54
daimonto get everything installed16:54
daimonshould be dine I imagine16:55
daimonfine* even16:55
xinomilo# apt install unattended-upgrades && dpkg-reconfigure -plow unattended-upgrades17:02
daimonwhat does that do17:03
daimonI assume that is the mechanism for the automatic security upgrades (without doing it via the install)17:04
fsmithredif you're on chimaera or ceres you probably want to review upgrades before letting them run.17:09
daimonah I see17:13
daimonthis is not so bad, one final question ... if I was to boot this on a system with no graphics card what so ever17:13
daimonwould it automatically start a console on rs232 port 117:14
daimonand in https://i.itsosticky.com/1sworxr.png17:21
daimonas an aside even the minimal install still shoves libx11 in https://i.itsosticky.com/up181h.png17:25
n4diraptitude why libx1117:25
daimonl;et me install aptitude first ;p one mo17:25
daimonhttps://i.itsosticky.com/wd76e1.png17:27
daimonI did not install ssh-server ...17:27
daimonok now I am confused17:29
daimonhttps://i.itsosticky.com/1byvc53.png17:30
daimonI marked libx11-6 as held17:30
daimonyet it ignored it?17:30
daimonfsmithred, https://i.itsosticky.com/1xwxlr1.png with no install-recommends? what is going on here17:44
fsmithredyou missed a word17:46
fsmithredapt --no-install-recommends install docker17:46
fsmithredor 'install whatever'17:46
daimonmakes sense https://i.itsosticky.com/1qi6gr6.png though still does not apparently work17:47
daimonunless I am being excessively dim17:47
daimon(likely)17:47
fsmithredwhat are you trying to install? What is docker?17:47
daimondocker is a containerization system17:47
fsmithredthat's not the container software17:47
fsmithrednope17:47
fsmithredapt-cache search docker17:47
fsmithredto get the right name17:47
fsmithreddocker.io17:48
daimonwhat the heck was I trying to install17:49
daimonI could understand dockerd but docker.io?17:49
daimonwell that one is making the notepad :) thank you fsmithred17:50
daimoninteresting it raised a warning on install that the user 'kvm' is unknown, perhaps that is for if you want to run a native windows docker17:50
fsmithredignore that17:51
daimonhttps://i.itsosticky.com/1mxdfxo.png perfect17:51
daimonthis should work perfectly as long as zfs does, ill whinge at mason when I spot him to validate it hopefully before tomorrow :)17:52
daimonthank you for all the help fsmithred n4dir and r3boot17:53
n4dirit bugged me, so i did a minimal installation with standar-task chosen only. Yes, the libx11-libs are there, due to open-ssh-client and xauth and such17:55
fsmithredyw17:55
n4diri would not have expected that. (else there was no need to check it myself). You learn a new thing every day17:55
fsmithredxauth is a Recommends of openssh-client, and xauth recommends libx1118:01
daimonoh the last question I never did see an answer too, if you boot the installer on a system with no video card (or one that does) will an installation terminal open on tty0?18:01
daimonor com port118:01
fsmithredsorry, I've never done serial port18:01
fsmithredthere is a way to do it18:01
fsmithredsee debian documentation on that18:02
daimonyeah it seems one of those things that is default or you have to edit the boot loader18:02
daimonits a curiosity just wondering, the system this is heading to does have onboard video so no real concern18:02
hagbard_Has anyone here ever tried to recompile the glibc? These are the test failures I get: https://paste.debian.net/1184752/19:20
gnarfacehagbard_: haven't tried it recently, error doesn't look familiar.  double-check all your dependency versions maybe...?  if you haven't run "apt-get build-dep [package]" try it first, and if you have, look for stuff it might have missed19:54
gnarface(bison, yacc, meson are historically common culprits for me)19:55
hagbard_I've had installed the build-deps.19:56
gnarfacehagbard_: and you also have build-essential?  try installing bison, yacc, and meson too, just in case.  all you have to lose is the time and the disk space.20:19
hagbard_yes, i have all those20:19
hagbard_compile seems to complete, but then the tests fail.20:20
hagbard_But no surprise, glibc has always been the most finicky thing of all to build.20:22
daimonhagbard_, I find http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/development/chapter05/glibc.html20:23
daimonquite good reading for building baseline libraries20:23
daimonhttp://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/development/index.html for the main index20:24
gnarfacehagbard_: oh, i thought the build was actually failing.  i'm not sure those test are even expected to all succeed, regardless of what their output actually says.  is this the chimera or ceres package you're trying to build, or upstream sources, or what?20:28
hagbard_devuan testing20:28
gnarfacehagbard_: are you trying to build a beowoulf src package on beowulf?  you might want to try a later release version in a chroot as a comparison20:28
gnarfacehagbard_: so, to be clear, you're trying to build the chimera source package in a beowulf install with no backports, right?20:29
hagbard_I'm not familiar with the version names. Got the source of glibc-2.31 with apt-get source, and then I tried it build it in testing.20:33
hagbard_I have just 'testing' and 'unstable' and such in my repositories, so I don't keep track of the version names.20:35
fsmithredhagbard_, after jessie, we started with A and go in alphabetical order20:40
fsmithredand ceres=sid = always the same20:41
gnarfacehagbard_: i386 or amd64?20:44
gnarfacehagbard_: i'm trying to figure out what variables we could change and still get the build you want, but i'd be at the point of trying builds i can't use (like on ceres) just as a comparison20:48
gnarfaceor try a different gcc version even20:48
gnarfaceor maybe check into backporting some dependencies first20:48
hagbard_I think I'll try it again in a fresh clean vm instead of on my daily driver laptop.20:52
hagbard_amd6420:52
gnarfacehagbard_: a debootstrapped chroot would probably be fine21:00
gnarfacehagbard_: do you have multi-arch enabled?21:00
gnarfacehagbard_: is it possible maybe it's trying to build both amd64 and i386 stuff and you only have the amd64 dependencies?21:00
gnarfacehagbard_: lemme know if anything changes in the clean install21:01
gnarfacehagbard_: and maybe we can get detailed messages from those test failures?21:01

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