libera/#devuan/ Tuesday, 2021-08-24

systemdleteturns out that slim was not the (only?) problem.  I'm still getting lockups at random times.00:46
rwpsystemdlete, My scrollback doesn't go far enough back.  What problems are you having?00:47
systemdleteI have a radeon card I could use instead of the nvidia card.00:47
systemdletenvidia (nouveau driver) on beowulf causes random lockups00:47
rwpAre you having nvidia card lockups?  I had that problem so bad I switched out my nvidia card for an AMD Radeon card.00:47
systemdletebut the exact same card (nouveau driver) on ascii on same machine works without incident.00:48
systemdlete(see above rwp)00:48
rwpThe card is okay but something in the last six months in the mainstream kernel drivers or something in that path changed.00:48
systemdletethat's what I am thinking also00:48
systemdletecrap00:48
systemdleteand no one else noticed this problem but you and me?00:48
rwpI have used the same setup here for probably three years.  And then one day after a kernel upgrade I would have lockups.00:48
systemdletefunny that00:48
rwpThen another upgrade and the problem was same but different.00:49
systemdletenice00:49
rwpBut it would be after fast screen activity.  Such as scrolling fast or anything that updated the X graphics quickly.00:49
rwpVery repeatable.00:49
systemdleterwp:  Did the relase notes for the kernel upgrade mention anything about changes to the driver?00:49
rwpAnd if I waited 2 minutes the linux kernel watchdog would kick things and then I could do something again.00:49
systemdleteI waited several minutes also.  No change.00:50
rwpI gave up trying to figure the problem out.  So I swapped from nvidia to an AMD Radeon.00:50
systemdleterwp:  Keep in mind, this is brand-spanking-new beowulf net install.00:50
systemdleterwp:  !00:50
rwpThe Radeon drivers are very mainstream these days and I have not had any problems with them for a while.00:50
systemdletelol.00:50
systemdleteIt's not their turn.00:50
rwpThat it is a fresh Beowulf install does not change the problem at all.  I was actually running Ceres when I first experienced the problem.00:51
rwpAnd that kernel has trickled down through everything now.00:51
systemdleteI only mentioned that because perhaps you might think I did not upgrade00:51
rwpI am sure that if you were to install a pristine ASCII that everything would be fine.  Or if you were to otherwise downgrade to the older kernel everything would be okay.00:52
systemdleteI've been getting pushed here to upgrade to beowulf, so I tried.  Several times.  Each time I had different problems, primarily with video issues00:52
systemdleteWell, I do have a radeon card here.  It's still in shrinkwrap, so...00:52
systemdleteHD5450  VisionTek00:53
rwpIn that case I suggest stop causing yourself pain and swap the cards around.  Save yourself!00:53
systemdletesave my sanity!00:53
systemdleteyes00:53
rwpI am also running two AMD HD 5450 cards here.  Very solid cards.00:53
systemdleteAh!  good to know00:53
systemdletethat is reassuring.00:54
systemdletethanks00:54
rwpActually, let me count them up.  I have four of those in different machines spread out.  All trouble free so far.00:54
systemdleteI will need to shut down completely and swap the hardware.00:54
systemdlete(wow)00:54
systemdletethat's very good00:54
rwpHP used to ship them in their HP workstations.  That's how I ended up with three of them.  And I bought another one after that.00:55
systemdleteyou know, I can't stand the notion of "throwing more hardware at the problem."  But I'll make an exception here00:55
systemdletebbl...00:55
systemdleteback.  Yeah, this does seem much better so far.01:22
systemdleteAll I had to do was install the firmware for radeon.  Rebooted and viola!01:22
systemdletehere I am01:22
systemdlete:)01:22
systemdleteNow I can look forward to the perils of chimaera...01:23
systemdletebut at least I am off ascii, which was beginning to be a bit of a drag.01:23
systemdletethanks rwp!01:23
rwpGood luck systemdlete!  And yes, I love the transportability of Linux systems.  Just swap things around and it all works.01:42
systemdleteI order something on newegg but it gets fulfilled and delivered by Amazon?   Can someone please tell me why I went to newegg then?02:00
systemdletewtf...02:00
fsmithredthat sucks.02:01
systemdleteI'm trying hard NOT to give Bezos any more money than he already has taken from us all.  So I shop newegg and some others.02:04
systemdleteor I thought I was shopping newegg02:04
rwpNewegg is a retail frontend for a lot of other businesses.  I bought some disks from Newegg and they were "order fulfilment" from Serveronics.02:04
rwpAnd in that case Serveronics screwed me over shipping old used refurbished drives!  Those buggers!  RMA and returned immediately.02:05
systemdletethen what the heck is newegg?02:05
rwpSo maybe that was the case with Amazon too?  Just one of the retailers Newegg fronted for?02:05
systemdleteif Newegg is going to play these games also, I might as well shop Amazon then.02:05
rwpJust be sure to check that the order fulfilment is by Newegg.  And that the channel is #devuan-offtopic!  :-)02:06
fsmithredtigerdirect? are they still around?02:06
systemdleteare they competing or colluding?02:06
systemdleteI used tigerdirect also from time to time02:06
systemdleteI might go back to them, yes...02:06
fsmithredoops. thanks rwp02:06
systemdleterwp: Right.02:06
systemdletebbl02:07
golinuxsystemdlete: That's been going on for years.  There used to be an option to only see items from newegg that filtered all the other "fulfillment" options.02:27
phoggyou go to newegg because their filter mechanism is excellent and many other places aren't that good. Once you find the part number you don't necessarily buy from newegg.02:30
systemdletephogg:  Yeah.  I know how it works.  The trouble is, when I purchase from a vendor in a specific marketplace (e.g., Newegg, Amazon, etc), I expect that *THAT* marketplace fulfills the order, not one of the OTHER marketplaces.03:50
systemdleteI think what happened to me is that the vendor probably has storefronts on several marketplaces (that's common)03:51
systemdleteBut he decided to fulfill my order through a different marketplace, maybe because it costs him less.  Idk.  But this amounts to grand collusion and is a violation of anti-trust.03:51
systemdleteIt means consumers have fewer choices.03:52
systemdleteAnd I resent that deeply.  I mean, tbh, I resent the whole stinking system in the  first place.  But the players can't even stick to the rules in the system as they stand.03:52
systemdleteThe "theory" behind capitalism is competition drives prices down.  This works for wages, not so much for retail prices.  But anyway, this IS the support channel...03:54
Guest73Hi. Some time ago I asked about help with the wireless connection because it was bugged to me.07:22
Guest73I got recommended connmann, and I installed it, though I decided to go back to the Network-Manager, and to uninstall connmann, what resulted with problems with n-m that led to me using if-up, and if-down07:25
Guest73I decided to stay on that, for some time as it seemed to be fine, at least then, when I didn't need to connect to some other wireless connections.07:27
Guest73But it came out that my connection is bugged also, while using if-up, and if-down.07:27
Guest73It randomly ceases to work, and then I have some chance to turn it on again, after using if-down, and if-up again.07:28
Guest73But it also happened once, that the wlan0 interface got somehow lost and wasn't detected, so I needed to restart pc for it to work again.07:29
Guest73Could anybody here know what could work wrong, how to check, and fix it?07:29
Guest73I would like to finally have a stable connection.07:30
Guest73And it was never quite stable as long as I worked with Linux, with my wireless card.07:31
gnarfaceGuest73: sounds like a problem with the driver or firmware; they're part of the kernel so the easiest way to try fixing it is try another kernel version07:42
gnarfacewell, some wifi non-free firmware is packaged separately from the kernel, but i assume you have the latest of those07:42
gnarfacethere's a newer kernel (and possibly wifi firmware too) in beowulf-backports07:43
gnarfacemaybe try that07:43
Guest73I have some doubts if another kernel version would fix it.07:43
Guest73It is not like I didn't upgraded it many times before,07:44
Guest73Could I check somehow what exactly could go wrong previously? Like, what kind of error? Last time when I tried to ifdown, and ifup again, it helped. Just for some reson it ceased to work, and needed to do this again,07:46
Guest73the device is Intel Dual Band Wireless-AC 316507:54
Guest73I also did install the non-free drivers08:03
gnarfacewell, i admit it's no guarantee changing kernels would fix it.  it's not overly likely to work it's just the only option you have right now08:03
gnarfaceyou can of course try to debug it by error message, check dmesg when it fails08:04
gnarfacebut even if you find a fix that way it'll probably still involve changing kernels, fair warning08:04
gnarfaceonly other thing i can think of is if it's a built-in wifi device and this is a laptop, try checking for updates BIOS08:05
gnarfacei assume you've tested other wifi devices?08:05
gnarfaceif you have only tested this one we don't know for sure it isn't an issue with the router08:06
gnarfacebasically the only path other than examining kernel code directly or changing the kernel arbitrarily is pedantic deductive testing so since that's expensive i recommended trying the backports kernel first, sometimes you get lucky08:07
gnarfacei guess i assumed you hadn't got any error messages when it failed08:07
gnarfacedid you find any?08:08
gnarfacecheck the dmesg output and the /var/log/*.log files08:08
gnarfaceand /var/log/syslog08:08
gnarfaceyou might find a useful error message but for this type of failure i wasn't betting on it08:09
gnarfacenot without kernel debugging flags enabled anyway08:09
gnarfacetrying to recreate the issue with any other wifi router is useful testing too08:10
gnarfaceif you can narrow down any conditions it occurs under that would help08:10
gnarfacejust remember you might not be looking for it dropping the connection; consider that maybe something environmental is causing that and the failure is to reconnect08:12
gnarfaceor maybe the driver is just locking up, which is what it sounded more like that last time when you had to reboot08:12
gnarfacebut it could just be a power management glitch too08:14
tomtasticWhats going on with debians package updates, they seem to have slowed a lot recently ?13:49
ltsTesting freeze due to bullseye?13:50
tomtasticAhh13:50
tomtasticMaybe thats it. haven't seen an update for openzfs in over 4 months13:50
buZztomtastic: fyi, debian 11 came out about a month ago14:09
buZziirc14:09
buZzif you desire some update, maybe look at backports14:09
buZzor migrate to devuan chimaera and help find bugs ;)14:09
tomtasticI'm on ceres already ;)14:12
buZzhope you got backups of that zfs volume ;)14:13
tomtasticsure do, zfs send is awesome.14:13
buZzanyway, if '4 months without update' is too worrysome, maybe you'd rather run archlinux? :D14:13
buZzbreak install at every update \o14:13
tomtasticI just like the new ZFS releases, some nice updates have been coming out this year so far14:14
buZzdebian (and devuan obv) are not distros for 'number goes up, UPGRADE' usage :D14:14
tomtasticI could build from source, but I'm lazy14:14
buZzarch is, and breaks often14:15
tomtasticfor some reason I woke up this morning thinking about Slackware (my first distro, installed from floppies)14:16
tomtasticI wonder if they went systemd....14:16
brocashelmtomtastic: i also use ceres. it's less work to maintain than other "stable" distros15:39
tomtasticI have a fairly paired down install, it's a headless box I only use for a few docker images, a samba server and general always-on duties.15:41
gnarfacelast i heard, slackware was also still free of systemd15:43
tomtasticnice, i wonder if they ever got package management :)15:49
tomtasticor if it's still just tarballs15:50
jonadabThe way Slackware fans tell it, they have a package manager, it just uses tarballs as its package format.20:46
jonadabThough I don't know how much it does in the way of dependency resolution and so on.20:46
user____It uses .xz compressed tar these days, and it does no dep resolution by itself, but there are tools which do that instead.20:56
user____Roughly the Slackware `installpkg` `removepkg` etc commands correspond to `dpkg install` and `dpkg purge`. The equivalent of apt or synaptic or aptitude is higher level.20:57
user____Specifically https://docs.slackware.com/slackware:slackpkg and there are others20:58
user____So no need to diss / urban legend propagate stuff, we are no longer in the 1990s when slackpkg did not exist :)20:59
masonFWIW, the things that do dependency management don't actually do it for base packages in Slackware, only for things like SlackBuilds packages.20:59
user____Correct.20:59
masonFor minimal base installs, there's stuff like http://www.slackware.com/~vbatts/minimal/ and https://github.com/vbatts21:00
user____Slack minimal / default iso installs usually cover all that is needed to get a running system.21:01
masonDefault leaves you with a mammoth eight gigs of cruft.21:01
user____Slack also has genius tagfiles which permit complete automation of installations21:01
masonThat's true.21:01
user____mason: not ime. https://www.slackbook.org/html/package-management-making-tags-and-tagfiles.html21:02
masonuser____: That should come with the caveat that coming up with a coherent set is considerable work.21:02
user____True. But there is copious info for getting the system up and running.21:02
masonThis is why I really like innate dependencies.21:02
systemdletefsmithred:  Completed an install of refracta 11, asked me to reboot, so I rebooted but ended up in a recovery shell.21:03
user____After all, Slackware is not gentoo, where they give you a compiler and a good luck one liner message21:03
masonhah21:03
systemdleteI did this in a VM, btw, not hardware.21:03
systemdlete(I do have a couple of hardware PCs I can try it on also.)21:04
brocashelmthere is #devuan-offtopic for anything not relating to devuan, btw21:05
masonbrocashelm: We were implicitly lauding Devuan's hierarchical dependency management, as compared with the competition.21:07
user____;)21:09
brocashelmmason: i'm pretty sure this channel is for support; if i wanted to talk about any other distro, even just to compare them, i'd more likely move the discussion elsewhere21:11
user____Ok, I apologize for starting this :)21:11
user____No more flaming please, it's hot enough as is.21:12
brocashelmmason: but you are the channel admin, so you set the example you want people to follow :)21:12
masonbrocashelm: Gods no. I'm no channel admin, at least as of the last time I looked.21:12
user____😇21:12
masonYeah, no ops for me. I was too intolerant of anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers and the whole right-wing thing generally.21:14
masonSo the ops bits quietly slid away when we moved to Libera.21:14
masonAll hush-hush-like. :P21:14
brocashelmah ok21:14
masonI'd only initially gotten ops to be able to stifle some vehement anti-semitic stuff that was previously a problem, and that hasn't come back recently.21:18
golinuxbrocashelm: Thanks for attempting to keep the kiddos in line21:19
brocashelm:D21:19
golinuxSlow learners some of them . . .21:19
masonMust be the vaccine booster I got. Too much brainpower going into the government network.21:21
masonI'll try to do better.21:21
brocashelmyeah, i'm only interested in talking about devuan, so the other subjects going to -offtopic is better IMO21:21
* user____ has a sore arm to show for shot #2 -- golinux you were right, the vaccine is dangeours -- to the channel21:21
golinuxPlease to to offtopic . . .21:22
golinuxgo to21:22
user____I'm already there, relax. Thanks for the patience.21:22

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