libera/#devuan/ Thursday, 2021-09-09

Hydragyrumwait is daedalus already released? <https://www.devuan.org/os/releases> says no, but it exists in the repos (I set one of my testing VMs' sources.list to point at daedalus and it worked)04:11
gnarfacewell, once chimera is released something would need to occupy the "testing" slot it vacated, right?04:11
gnarfacethat's normal expected operations04:12
gnarfacegood to see they're ahead of schedule on setup this time04:12
gnarfaceno, that doesn't mean daedalus is "released"04:12
gnarfaceit might mean you can install and test it though04:12
Hydragyrumso it's just staged testing for when chimaera becomes stable04:12
gnarfacethat's my assumption, yes, though admittedly i'm not on the inside loop04:13
gnarfacechimera should be stable very soon now i think04:13
blockheadcooool04:13
gnarfaceagain, that's based on pure hearsay though04:13
blockheadunderstood04:13
Hydragyrumchimaera's been pretty stable for a while now, I've noticed a huge dropoff in package updates (maybe a couple a week?) and the installer for it installs -security and -backports (commented) entries in sources.list04:14
Hydragyrumfound a forum post (http://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=4461) from august 21st04:15
Hydragyrumlooks like someone else found it a while ago04:15
Hydragyrumre: earlier gitlab stuff, I got a different error message trying to install with the package in the repo on ceres, <https://termbin.com/j3ib>07:41
onefangDo you need all of gitlab / github type stuff, or just a web front end to git?  I use cgit.07:47
Hydragyrumthis is with regards to someone's earlier need for a git server deal (EmanuelLoos[m]), looking like gitea's the best/easiest option07:53
ham5urg_Is there a way to install X instead wayland with a debootstraped chimaera? My laptop crushes to often.21:54
ham5urg_A non-gui login and an old startx would be nice21:54
fsmithredapt install xorg21:56
fsmithredand maybe --no-install-recommends with that21:57
fsmithredthen install the wm of your choice, without a display manager21:59
ham5urg_Wayland has forced Xorg to be installed too. Is there a simple way I could switch/deactivate wayland? I use gdm/gnome.22:02
fsmithredhow did you get wayland? I don't recall ever getting that on any debootstrap or other kind of install22:03
ham5urg_If I recall correctly I installed a package like gnome-desktop-base or similar.22:03
ham5urg_There is /etc/gdm3/daemon.conf and inside I've found #WaylandEnable=false22:05
fsmithredI forgot that you're using gnome.22:05
fsmithredthat looks promising22:05
fsmithreduncomment and restart gdm22:05
ham5urg_yes22:06
fsmithredI don't know if disabling gdm entirely would work.22:06
fsmithredyou would probably lose some privs, like shutdown/reboot22:06
ham5urgfsmithred, no success with /etc/gdm3/daemon.conf . Gdm3 starts fine but when sitching over to gnome3 it breaks. I guess gnome3 is not anymore xorg compatible.22:16
ham5urgPity times...22:16
golinuxWhy would that surprise you?  Gnome is a good part of what got us here.22:17
blockhead@golinux: word22:17
fsmithredour main mailing list: dng = "Debian's not Gnome" (might not be true anymore.)22:18
ham5urggolinux, yes.22:20
ham5urgWhat WM do you use? KDE or something smaller like xfce?22:23
fsmithredThose are full desktop environments.22:24
fsmithredI use xfce22:24
fsmithredwindow managers are lighter. openbox, fluxbox, icewm, jwm, many others.22:24
golinuxslim ftw22:28
ham5urgIs there a technical difference between WM (lighter) and full desktop env. (heavier) except the amount of programs which are installed to control GUI (e.g. programs like complex menus, complex settings etc.)?22:33
HydragyrumA WM is just the window manager, a desktop environment includes a window manager, settings, bars and panels, application launchers that aren't dmenu, etc.22:36
Hydragyrumi.e. KDE usually uses kwin as the window manager, but can also use i3wm22:36
Hydragyrumbut kde also has the settings interface, taskbar things, widgets, launchers, etc.22:37
ham5urgI understand. Thanks.22:39
ham5urgIs dmenu a X.org simple standarized menu?22:40
Hydragyrumdmenu's a text-based, wm and de-independent very simple menu22:40
ham5urgok22:41
Hydragyrumit's commonly used when using a WM without a DE22:41
ham5urgWhat I never really understood, how a WM or a full desktop environment can start an application which is not 'designed' for it. E.g., Evolution is a gtk+ app. but will start under KDE too.22:43
Hydragyrumkde supports gtk+ -- gtk is just a graphical toolkit, and although some things are designed to integrate well with certain DEs, they still follow the normal X standards -- allowing them to run under anything with a compliant X server (usually including XWayland)22:55
Xenguyham5urg, If you are shopping for a DE, MATE is like GNOME223:02
ham5urgI will check some DEs and WMs inside a VM and see how it goes. But this gnome3 thing has to end. First I quitted Debian, now I quit Gnome. Looks like any mainstream is getting destroyed, sooner or later.23:09
Hydragyrummore mainstream things tend to get more features and bloat shoved in, and with gnome3 and a couple others, they started using 3d acceleration for the DE, making it run badly without a gpu23:13
sgageI am a big MATE fan, and Devuan's implementation is fine.23:15
sgageBeen using it for years.23:15
ham5urgHydragyrum, I could live with that (3d accel.) but this wayland-thing is too much. Anywhere it states that wayland is way faster, but, is the guess wrong that any X-application with 3d-accel. will have very similar performance?23:17
ham5urgIs a chimaera dektop-live-iso out there?23:17
Hydragyrumwayland's new and intended to replace X because of some issues with how some of X works and is handled23:18
ham5urgchimaera iso are avail.23:19
Hydragyrumham5urg, yes there are, here's (one) link for one <https://devuan.unetresgrossebite.com/devuan_chimaera/desktop-live/devuan_chimaera_4.0.beta2_2021-09-04_amd64_desktop-live.iso>23:20
nemoshame wayland breaks my stuff23:20
ham5urgnemo, why?23:21
nemoham5urg: I use xdotools and ssh -Y a lot. on phone and w/ various machines at home and work.23:21
Hydragyrumyeah wayland's not really that ready and breaks for a number of X things because of some things about its security model23:21
nemoham5urg: in addition, it appears waylands security model is still not up to snuff, to make things work they are still basically at X level - at least when last time this argument came up on HN23:21
nemoin addition wayland native stuff often is buggy just due to sheer newness. like Firefox23:22
nemoso. all in all, I'm avoiding it23:22
nemoI have no perf issues that I care about on X23:22
nemogames are fast. browser (with acceleration enabled) is fast. desktop is totally fine.23:22
ham5urgxfce uses a non-nm network-manger I guess.23:26
nemowouldn't know23:26
ham5urgDo I have to use the terminal for networking on simple WM?23:26
nemoI use MATE23:26
sgageI have no performance issues with X, or any other kind of issue as far as I can tell.23:26
nemosgage: ditto23:27
nemosgage: also an X desktop still works with underpowered hardware without GL acceleration23:27
nemosgage: which I still need on one of the laptops at home just to get gaming working23:27
nemo(intel)23:27
nemo(disabling desktop compositing necessary just to not have corruption in browser and games)23:27
nemocan't run games and browser simultaneously either, but eh...23:27
Hydragyrumeven running DE-less i3wm here I can use nm-tray just fine23:34
* _ds_ prefers /etc/network/interfaces23:39
Hydragyrumwell, wifi is a bit of a pain sometimes, easier to just poke buttons every time I need to disconnect/reconnect23:39
sgageConnMan runs fine on Chimaera. I tested it just for grins, but I don't use it -23:41
sgageI prefer to run with wired ethernet. Faster, and there's enough EMR in my life.23:41
* blockhead is using connman. so far, it works fine in blackbox, fvwm and dwm23:41
_ds_Much the same here. Wired where practical, wireless otherwise.23:42
ham5urgIs there a X-network-manager?23:45
Hydragyrumnm-tray is the most universally functional NetworkManager frontend I've found23:45
Hydragyrumshould just be as simple as `apt install nm-tray`23:46

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