libera/#devuan/ Saturday, 2021-09-18

harrydus-matrix<fsmithred> "not sure if debian forces you to..." <- Yes, you can't prevent the installation of systemd (at least I don't know of an easy way). But you can still replace systemd with another init system, either at installation time or later: https://wiki.debian.org/Init00:38
rwpharrydus-matrix, If installing a minimum system it is always possible, yes.  But *MANY* packages in Debian are starting to hard require systemd.  Those are the problem.  libvirt for example.01:30
rwpIt all depends upon what you want to actually *do* with the system as to whether it is reasonable to use Debian without systemd or not.01:30
harrydus-matrixrwp many of those packages which require systemd do also accept elogind as replacement. I was running Debian 11 on my notebook without systemd just a few days ago.01:48
harrydus-matrixBut you're right that keeping systemd out can become difficult eventually and it looks like the situation will get worse.01:48
golinuxThis might be helpful to you: https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt01:51
ziprootHi, I have trouble connecting to wifi on devuan. It works fine on mx.04:15
ziprootLog: https://upload.disroot.org/r/xKjJNoKM#lv65CPCGYUfWcTZlB780qEN4KsOYH5FJqw/fBKdf/BY=04:17
ziprootok I will check again at a different time04:33
jason1234flemu would be fine for runnning on devuan, with ppsspp, it could be added to the official repos of chimaera ... https://gitlab.com/openbsd98324/flemu09:54
gnuhackHi! How can I suspend my laptop without systemd? In Debian I did it with "systemctl suspend"10:36
skinnyboy_Hello11:28
skinnyboy_I want to know whats the difference between this two kernels: https://share.riseup.net/#FruXvWgylmBYgJFe5ElqXQ11:29
hagbardThe first one is a specific kernel version, the second is a meta-package that depends on whatever the current version is.11:31
hagbardso if unsure, choose the latter11:32
skinnyboy_Thanks11:35
skinnyboy_I got it, dual boot UEFI/GPT mode, but the installer did it automatically, crazy, I didn't even have to generate the initial ram with the crypt hooks or anything, nor touch grub configurations.11:47
skinnyboy_https://share.riseup.net/#OfGvCfYVNO7Po7cNLFbOWg11:48
skinnyboy_Last question, if I have 16GB of RAM is it necessary to create a swap partition?11:49
gnarfacegnuhack: there's probably other ways too, but i think you can just call the pm-suspend script from the pm-utils package (don't forget though you'll need permission)11:59
gnarfaceskinnyboy_: maybe not in general practice but you should have some swap just in case even if it's just swap on a zram block device12:00
gnarfaceskinnyboy_: the system doesn't function correctly in an out-of-memory situation without swap, so you'd be vulnerable to the possibility of unprivileged user processes crashing privileged ones with a very simple DOS attack or memory leak12:02
skinnyboy_Thanks, another question im seeing now that im in the system that in the root fs i got kernels images and iniramfs images, idk if this is good...12:02
gnarfacethey are just symlinks to the ones in /boot it is normal12:03
gnarface"ls -l" and you can see where they're pointing12:03
skinnyboy_thanks12:03
skinnyboy_ok I understand a lil bit better UEFI boot12:04
skinnyboy_So pc boots and see that in my first partition with FAT32 i got entries with grub efi bootloader and more images like windows and devuan, so boots up on grub and in the grub config i got a chainload, windows, devuan and so on..?12:06
gnarfaceyou might understand the uefi part better than me12:07
gnarfacesounds right though basically12:07
gnarfacei think12:07
skinnyboy_Ill configure on my own laptop and ill come right back with an irc client and ill make and acc12:07
gnarfacethe part about the symlinks to the kernel images in /boot isn't unique to uefi12:08
skinnyboy_and why in the root fs and no other partitions?12:08
gnarfacei think that's just a lower level unix thing; it's gotta pick one partition first so root is the logical default12:09
gnarfacebut with these debian initrd.img kernel setups it actually boots a rootfs in the initrd.img first12:09
gnarfacethat has all the drivers and stuff to be able to load everything else12:10
gnarfacethe idea being i think based on hardware limitations from a long time ago12:10
gnarfaceto be honest i don't even know if anything other than kernel package build automation actually uses those symlinks anymore12:13
skinnyboy_uff12:14
skinnyboy_How can i learn more about unix* like internals12:14
gnarfaceeh, i'm sure there's good books but i've picked a lot up by just comparing behavior of different distros12:14
skinnyboy_Cause is hard for me to learn about grub, initrams, kernels, etc.12:14
gnarfaceseeing what's the same, and seeing what's different... and seeing what changes to become more the same or more different over time12:14
skinnyboy_If anyone can recommended me a book i aprecciate it12:14
gnarfaceredhat even has that /vmlinuz symlink i think12:15
gnarfaceused to anyway iirc12:15
skinnyboy_gnarface thats a good idea, Im the same, breaking things and try other things i learned a lot12:15
gnarfacethere is acutally documentation that comes with the distros, this one being no exception12:15
gnarfacethe debian new maintainer's guide will teach you a lot12:16
skinnyboy_gnarface And now how can i learn about sysvinit i download a cheatsheet, its all that i should now about it?12:16
gnarfacei think someone has a devuan version in the works but i'm not sure where the link is12:16
gnarfacesysvinit, look up the LSB headers12:16
gnarfaceall you need to know is the LSB headers and the /etc/rc?.d/ sylinks12:16
gnarfacesymlinks*12:16
gnarfacethe rest is just shell script12:16
gnarfaceyou were supposed to be able to start in /etc/init.d/README but i think it was recently discovered those are stale links12:17
gnarfacehttps://wiki.debian.org/LSBInitScripts12:18
gnarfacei'm sure there's devuan versions of this somewhere too12:18
gnarfacebut in general that part isn't different from how it was in debian wheezy12:18
skinnyboy_Thanks bruh!!12:22
fsmithredhttps://refracta.org/docs/debian-handbook-wheezy.pdf12:23
fsmithred^^^  Debian Admin Guide for Wheezy (might have more info about sysvinit)12:23
skinnyboy_Man i love u!12:25
EmanuelLoos[m]Hello, how far is Devuan 4 from stable?16:09
xrogaanthere's a call for help posted on the mailing list16:09
xrogaanhttps://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20210917.033049.73d0a505.en.html16:10
EmanuelLoos[m]So, it is mostly about the documentation or are there also critical bugs that need to be fixed before chimaera can be released as the new stable version?16:15
EmanuelLoos[m]Are you planing to offer official live images for other desktop environments too?16:22
ShorTiewhat package provides  -ldl  ??16:24
gnarfacethat's part of glibc16:24
gnarfaceapt-cache search ^libc616:25
gnarfaceor: dpkg -S libdl.so16:25
ShorTielibc6 and libc6-dev is already the newest version, but still can't find dlopen, dlerror and dlsym16:29
ShorTieundefined reference to `dlopen' ...16:30
gnarfacewhat are you trying to build?16:31
ShorTiesmoothd, sure you never heard of it16:33
ShorTiethefull error is really, /usr/bin/ld: ./libsmoothd.so: undefined reference to `dlopen', maybe i need -ldl for it too...16:35
fsmithredEmanuelLoos[m], the only destkop-live is with xfce16:46
xrogaanI have no clue about the doc. Looks good at first glance, but I rarely read any and I don't often install systems.16:52
xrogaanwell, I found a problem16:52
fsmithred?16:52
xrogaanthe doc recommend wicd, it's gone from chimarea16:53
xrogaansomething something python216:53
fsmithredyou looking at release notes or some install docs?16:53
xrogaangolinux asked the community to review https://www.devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/en/network-configuration.html16:53
fsmithredyeah, with a little luck, the person who is looking at it will get it working with python 316:53
xrogaanwell, the whole of dev1fanboy16:53
fsmithredyeah, ok. Thanks.16:53
fsmithredupgrade and migration docs are not fun to do. There are too many variables.16:54
xrogaanyou'd need to understand how launchpad.net works in order to get something from upstream.16:54
fsmithredbrb16:54
EmanuelLoos[m]<fsmithred> "Emanuel Loos, the only destkop-..." <- I know, is there a reason there are not more live images?17:03
fsmithredyeah, more bodies are needed to do work.17:03
fsmithredit's actually pretty easy to make live-isos with alternate desktops using live-sdk. Getting all the details right for each desktop, including the theme, is a lot more work.17:04
fsmithreddesktop-base only works fully with xfce. With some of the others, it works partially.17:05
EmanuelLoos[m]fsmithred: What are the known bugs?17:06
fsmithredwhich known bugs?17:06
fsmithredbugs in chimaera?17:07
fsmithredchimaera is ready. The installer isos and live isos are not quite ready.17:07
EmanuelLoos[m]fsmithred: What works only partially with other desktop environments?17:07
fsmithredwindow theme17:07
fsmithredcode would need to be added to desktop-base for each different desktop.17:08
EmanuelLoos[m]fsmithred: Can't the theme be copied over?17:09
EmanuelLoos[m]Or do you mean a Devuan specific theme?17:10
fsmithredyeah, the devuan desktop theme17:10
fsmithredbg image, window theme, a few other details of the desktop.17:10
fsmithredlogin manager theme and grub theme are in that package, too17:10
golinuxEmanuelLoos[m]: Chimaera theme screenies: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=389617:12
fsmithredthe config files for the desktop that contain the theme settings need to be included in the package17:12
fsmithredand then they get symlinked into the alternatives system to replace the default config files.17:12
fsmithredfor xfce, that's three or four .xml files. I don't know what the other desktops use.17:13
xrogaanAh, I used "reply" instead of "reply to list". We'll see if the mail will be sorted properly.17:14
fsmithredif you're using t-bird, it'll just go to the author.17:14
EmanuelLoos[m]<fsmithred> "yeah, the devuan desktop theme" <- For GTK I read that some GTK developers would be happier if their software isn't theamed by every distribution because it often breaks their software and they are getting many bug reports for many different themes they never planed to support. The standard GTK theme is also named "Adwita" which translates to "The Only One".17:17
xrogaanNo, no, I use mutt and there is a reply to list shortcut that puts the list address in the `to:` field. I believe that's all it does, but I'm not quite certain. So since I used the reply shortcut and manually changed the `To:` field, headers may not be propers.17:18
xrogaanAwaita17:18
xrogaanAdwaita17:18
xrogaanAnd yes, Gnome people are opinionated about what a desktop should look like and feel like. I personally don't care much for that.17:19
EmanuelLoos[m]xrogaan: Here is their open letter: https://stopthemingmy.app/17:21
fsmithredgnome people are very concerned about brand identity17:22
fsmithredthey want all linux desktops to look the same17:22
xrogaanEmanuelLoos[m]: As I said, I really don't care :)17:22
fsmithredand I read a conversation between someone and a gnome dev, and the gnome dev did not know what xfce was.17:22
xrogaanfsmithred: smells like microsoft-style tunnel vision. Very bad for whatever they're working on.17:23
fsmithredsounds like they are arguing in favor of client-side-decorations and against a uniform window management for apps on the desktop.17:25
fsmithreda lot of app developers would be happy if the gtk devs didn't keep changing things and breaking their apps.17:27
fsmithredsorry, I'm ranting OT. done.17:27
EmanuelLoos[m]<xrogaan> "Emanuel Loos: As I said, I..." <- I am just mentioning it. Do with the information as you please. I am not a GNOME dev and I didn't say you have to care. However, if theming is the issue blocking live images with other desktop environments I'd suggest just using Adwaita for those other images, what do you think about it?17:29
fsmithredI'm pretty sure that idea would not fly.17:32
EmanuelLoos[m]fsmithred: Why?17:32
fsmithredtheming is not the only issue17:33
fsmithredbuilding and testing the isos takes a lot of time17:33
EmanuelLoos[m]fsmithred: What specifically?17:34
fsmithredsome time in the next few weeks, I will push the final changes to live-sdk for the chimaera build, and you can play with it.17:35
ShorTiehow do i find out LD_LIBRARY_PATH  ??17:36
golinuxxrogaan: Will keep an eye out for it.17:40
golinuxEmanuelLoos[m]: Adwaita is fugly.17:41
xrogaangolinux: generally, archlinux's wiki is pretty well maintained and helpful: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Network_configuration#Network_managers17:42
golinuxThe devs on the Xfce forum have managed to squash all the problems we've found using Clearlook Phenix.17:42
golinuxxrogaan: rrq has written a networking document that will be included in the Chimaera documentation17:42
golinuxEmanuelLoos[m]: If you want additional live desktops provided, I suggest you roll up your sleeves and dive in.17:45
masonShorTie: If you mean the defaults, look at /etc/ld.so*17:48
masonShorTie: Hint, "strings /etc/ld.so.cache | less" might be useful.17:48
EmanuelLoos[m]golinux: Maybe I'll try that after a the final changes to live-sdk for chimaera but I can't make any promises.17:49
EmanuelLoos[m]While we are at live images: What is the reason Devuan uses a different installer than debian?17:50
masonEmanuelLoos[m]: Debian's installer doesn't let you select an init system, for one.17:51
golinuxBecause fsmithred's refractsinstaller ROCKS!17:51
fsmithredinitially because it was easier. Currently because I haven't had time to incorporate debian-installer into the live-isos17:52
golinuxmason: "live images"17:52
masonOh, hm, didn't realize they included an installer.17:52
fsmithredtry Star or Crows or GnuinOS17:52
fsmithredthere may be other desktops there, too, but I don't think they have chimaera images yet.17:53
golinuxI haven't seen any announcements to that effect.17:54
fsmithredI looked at Star a few days ago and saw no chimaera17:55
EmanuelLoos[m]mason: How difficult is it to add this functionality? The clamares installer does seem a bit more user friendly. Is there more to this decision?17:55
golinuxFigure it out and let us know.17:55
masonEmanuelLoos[m]: It's just package selection, so whatever system you're using, have some knob or screen that lets the user choose. How difficult it'd be to implement depends on whatever the codebase is I guess.17:56
masonEmanuelLoos[m]: I'm hugely fond of debootstrap and manual set-up so it's a non-issue for me, so you could always start looking into that sort of thing too if you just want it for yourself.17:57
fsmithred^^^ 1+17:57
fsmithredd-i does have a good partitioner. The live installer doesn't do lvm or raid17:58
skinnyboy_Hello again, the dualboot in the virtual machine has gone well, but to pass it to physical computer, something has gone wrong, I've been reading and I'll ask a couple of questions, but first I want to say if I can do it as in my mind is projected:18:26
skinnyboy_1. I have started with a live and I have partitioned the entire hard disk already before installing any operating system, with the following scheme:18:26
skinnyboy_sda1 EFI System 500M18:26
skinnyboy_sda2 Linux filesystem (boot) x M18:26
skinnyboy_sda3 Linux filesystem (dm-crypt) x M18:26
skinnyboy_sda4 Microsoft reserved 16M18:26
skinnyboy_sda5 Windows recovery environment 300M18:26
skinnyboy_sda6 Windows basic data (C:\)18:26
skinnyboy_2. I have formatted with FAT32 sda1, ext4 sda2 as sda3 will be an encrypted partition, sda4 nothing, sda5 ntfs, sda6 ntfs, both with mkntfs.18:26
skinnyboy_3. Now come my doubts:18:26
skinnyboy_3.1 do I mount sda1 in /boot/efi?18:26
skinnyboy_3.2 When I install devuan asks me something about grub and that I have to be careful if I install it (I broke the boot or put an entry in UEFI wrong), I leave without a bootmanager and bootloader devuan and then already with a live install Refind? could I do that?18:26
skinnyboy_3.3 Windows 10 will be smart in the installation and will be installed on the partitions that I told him or will be an anarchist and do whatever he wants?18:26
skinnyboy_Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)18:26
fsmithredskinnyboy_, usually people just shrink the windows partition and then add partition(s) for linux.18:33
fsmithredif starting with empty hard drive, installing windows first is generally better. Windows might clobber an existing linux installation.18:34
skinnyboy_fsmithred In my eyes is more pretty for me when I do fdisk -l see efi first then gnu/linux and then windows18:34
fsmithredlol, let me know if it works.18:34
skinnyboy_yeah ofc ill do18:34
skinnyboy_And if works ill do a guide18:34
fsmithredrefind will save you if you have problems18:35
skinnyboy_Really can i install refind over grub?18:35
fsmithredI keep it on a small usb stick for emergency use18:35
fsmithredyeah, you can install refind. I don't recall exactly what you have to do, but it's in the repo.18:35
skinnyboy_My thought is that being UEFI and not BIOS it doesn't matter the order of installation since it generates two different entries in UEFI, it only reads FAT32 partitions and inside these are all the bootloaders, I think so.18:36
fsmithredare you using the live installer? (refractainstaller)18:36
skinnyboy_What installer is that?18:36
fsmithredjust make sure that windows doesn't decide to use the whole disk.18:36
skinnyboy_im right now finishing partitioning in arch iso18:36
fsmithredthe live isos use a different installer18:37
skinnyboy_Ill see if windows do that and if it does ill install windows first like all people18:37
skinnyboy_Can i chroot then?18:37
skinnyboy_mount all the system sda1 in /mnt/boot/efi and so on.. and then install refind for repos on chroot jail18:37
skinnyboy_?18:37
fsmithredyeah, you can chroot from a live iso18:37
skinnyboy_perfect18:38
skinnyboy_Ill do that better18:38
skinnyboy_I just want to learn breaking things18:38
fsmithredall the devuan live isos have devuan debootstrap installed18:38
fsmithred:)18:38
n4direlse you could always install it. Even the distro (usually) doesn't matter18:38
n4diryou'd have the debian version though, from other distros, i'd assume18:39
skinnyboy_n4dir the problem is if I install grub registry on uefi my pc doesnt recognize it18:40
n4dirskinnyboy_, i just made a side note about debootstrap, i hardly ran in UEFI yet, and if, it sucked.18:40
skinnyboy_From devuan install18:40
skinnyboy_I am newbie to GNU/Linux ecosystem and for me being spanish and having a lil bit of knowledge about it is hard.18:43
skinnyboy_With BIOS firmware it was all easy, cause grub was installed on a disk and thats all, even if he has to bootchain it was smart enought to do it18:44
fsmithredfor uefi, the command is just 'grub-install'18:44
fsmithredyou don't need to name a disk or partition. And yes, you must have the efi partition mounted at /boot/efi for it to work.18:45
fsmithredand a few other things if you're in a chroot.18:46
skinnyboy_https://wiki.debian.org/GrubEFIReinstall#Using_the_rEFInd_rescue_media ill follow this guide18:46
skinnyboy_ill not install grub ill install windows and ill reinstall it again18:47
skinnyboy_Im all ears18:47
fsmithredoh bind-mount /dev /proc and /sys18:54
fsmithredfor installing grub in chroot18:54
fsmithredthose were the few other things I meant18:55
skinnyboy_what bind-mount means?19:00
skinnyboy_Ill go for refinds i feel is more simple just mounting all fs and then chroot and instaling it19:00
n4dir that is what man mount says:   "Remount part of the file hierarchy somewhere else.  "19:00
n4dirproc, sys and dev are already mounted, but am mounted again for the chroot.19:01
n4dirnot that i would have ever thought about it. If doing chroot, i am told: to this and that. I just do it19:01
fsmithredskinnyboy_, the instructions you linked are for using removable media to boot and install grub19:04
n4dirnot saying anything wrong with asking what exactly it does. Just saying why i for one don't really know the details19:04
skinnyboy_fsmithred If i broke something ill ask again xD19:06
fsmithredI don't know all the details, either. I know it makes grub happy.19:06
skinnyboy_Im so sorry guys or girls!19:06
fsmithredok, I think you'll find your way.19:06
skinnyboy_Do u think xD?19:06
n4diras of now i couldn't convince my uefil pc to boot from usb stick. lol19:07
gnarfacesome stuff also needs /dev/pts mounted in the chroot19:08
n4dirbut that is probably really me, good luck, skinnyboy_ , you should be able to do it19:08
fsmithredgnarface, yeah, I usually do that one, too.19:09
n4dirre-installing grub doesn't need it though, iirc19:09
fsmithredI scripted it so I wouldn't have to type it all.19:09
skinnyboy_I think the best option is just refind iso and boot kernel from devuan and in devuan just install refind19:09
fsmithredit does need it if you install grub in chroot.19:10
skinnyboy_n4dir thanks!19:10
fsmithredskinnyboy_, yeah, that sounds like the easiest way.19:10
skinnyboy_yes but i got all the information in my mind and is driving me crazy19:10
skinnyboy_its new things to learn from me19:10
skinnyboy_for*19:10
n4diri remember very well how confusing chroot was for me. If done a few times, it is pretty straight forward.19:11
fsmithredif you learn better by reading, then read some more. If you learn better by doing, then just do it.19:11
fsmithredmaybe a few times.19:11
skinnyboy_fsmithred But i read a problem when ur installing it from chroot see here :19:11
skinnyboy_https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=25285319:12
fsmithredif you do a deboostrap install from live media and then chroot, you would just run 'apt install refind' I think.19:15
fsmithredI've only done it from an installed system and let it replace grub.19:15
fsmithredif you try that, just check the refind config file to see if it's right.19:16
skinnyboy_Ok windows is working20:32
skinnyboy_Im now booting on a live iso and im going to install grub20:32
skinnyboy_Windows respect partitions if u do it manually20:32
skinnyboy_error when i try to mount luks partition saying unknow filesystem type LVM2_Member20:54
skinnyboy_why?20:54
skinnyboy_Im stupid20:56
Hydragyrumvgchange -ay and then in /dev/<volume group name>/ there will be the logical volumes from that LVM pool20:57
HydragyrumThe standard installer-encrypted option uses LVM inside a LUKS container20:57
skinnyboy_yes i was mounting /dev/mapper/name21:01
skinnyboy_Instead /dev/vgroupname/root21:01
skinnyboy_but i think i fuck up21:01
skinnyboy_In the installation i dont put boot as mount point and creates me boot directory with the files in /21:02
skinnyboy_can i mv all on /boot and copy it to the sda2 partition?21:02
skinnyboy_i have sda2 partition to be "boot" but i forget in the installation gui to put it now i have all files in /boot in sda4 instead sda2 ;(21:03
skinnyboy_even in the fstab i dont have the mount point LMAO21:04
skinnyboy_im done x21:04
n4dirlspci gives VGA and Display Controler, second said to be Secondary. Both lines have: Radeon Xpress 1150. Do i need some kind of firmware for it?23:59

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