libera/#devuan/ Tuesday, 2021-10-12

eyalrozgnarface: I followed up our exchange yesterday with a forum post: http://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=455800:02
adhocmorning all01:19
hyrcanuscan one machine on the ent function as an apt-get proxy (mirror?) for another machine on the local net?02:03
rrqhyrcanus: yes. add 'Acquire::http::proxy "http://$IP:$PORT";' to your /etc/apt/apt.conf02:07
hyrcanusthanks awesome02:08
rrqthe mirror needs to "be" a mirror of course.. eg via apt-cacher-ng02:09
hyrcanusright, and it doesn't need to grab a whole repo, i assume?02:10
hyrcanuscacher implies that02:11
rrqright. and that mirror host would proxy for itself via localhost:3142 (default)02:12
hyrcanuswhat should i look for, to cache for a different os variant than the one running on the proxy host?02:19
hyrcanusif you can think of any terms to narrow my search rrq02:20
rrqthe one apt-cacher-ng can serve as cacher for "foreign" arch as well02:23
rrqit's a repo cacher for apt, and it caches for all sources02:24
rrqthere are other cacher, but that's the one I'm more familiar with02:25
masonapt-cacher isn't as slick but might be a bit more reliable. apt-cacher-ng can sometimes drop into a slightly corrupt state where you have to manually remove cached files02:25
masonThat said, apt-cache-ng is convenient enough that the spectre of occasional manual purging is worthwhile. (It's what I run locally.)02:25
masonFWIW, in /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/02proxy: Acquire::http::Proxy "http://my.internal.cache:3142";02:27
rwpI also use apt-cacher-ng too and every so often see it fail sticky.02:34
rwpI have tried debugging it but have just given up.  I still use it.02:34
rwpI find the easiest thing is "apt-get purge apt-cacher-ng; apt-get install apt-cacher-ng" to fix it.02:34
sadsnorkWhat are the typical symptoms one would see when apt-cacher-ng is having these problems?02:39
masonrwp: Ah, so far I've not had to go that far. I just delete the bad repo directory content.02:39
masonsadsnork: So, in this case, it would refuse to see a package as being the right length/checksum, and thus fail to install even though the source package is correct.02:39
masonAnd no amount of telling it to purge seems to help.02:40
masonThis has only happened to me once, but it's known to happen occasionally. From what I can tell it won't ever happen silently, which is why I'm willing to put up with it.02:41
sadsnorkSo on the "client" machine I would see errors when apt-get updating or upgrading?02:41
rrqhmm I've never had that as a persitent problem; I thought it happens when a source transiently is "bad", and then I have had to wait .. many minutes .. and then it works again02:44
masonYes.02:44
masonrrq: This one lasted for weeks. I was waiting to see if it'd clear up and it never did.02:44
sadsnorkWell thanks for the tips, I was thinking of using it and am glad I know what to watch for. :-)02:44
onefangA transient problem might occur if it hits a package mirror during it's syncing window.02:50
masononefang: Yeah, and it suggested this, but it happened with a small, local repository.02:54
onefangI'm talking about the cache hitting an official mirror during the official mirrors sync window.02:57
masonRight. Just saying, it suggested that this might have been the cause, but in this case it wasn't.02:57
masonWish I'd saved the error now. Sigh.02:58
onefangLasting for weeks isn't that problem, unless you get unlucky and hit a mirror that's having a lengthy problem.02:59
onefangAny given official package mirror being that out of date for that long is very very rare.03:00
masonRight. But this was my own repository in the house, so I knew it wasn't that. :P03:01
mason(I just cache everything by default, and didn't make an exception for my local apt repo.)03:02
AfdalSeriously why do my speakers audibly pop nearly every time I open a new pulseaudio server for a given program08:20
AfdalI don't remember this being an issue on *buntu08:20
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDthankyou for the ack gnarface08:33
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDAfdal, i think it's due to a lack of caps on your sound card08:34
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDhigher end soundcards don't seem to have that problem08:34
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDuh ok, liberachat broke again08:34
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDanyways, i get the same problem with alsa when opening or closing the dsp from idle08:35
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDbut not on my workstation08:35
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDwhich has a slightly higher end one08:35
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDthere's a workaround you can enable in mpv when using playlists that keeps the dsp open at a constant sample rate and resamples each track to fit08:36
ltsYou may have better luck with pipewire or just plain alsa, if you don't need a sound server. Pulseaudio is still buggy, and probably will remain so until replaced by pipewire08:38
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDif you do need a soundserver use jack2 instead08:39
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDlts, what is pipewire?08:39
ltsAh, Afdal went with the netsplit.08:39
ltshttps://pipewire.org/08:39
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDdo you use it?08:40
ltsI do, not on devuans though since I don't run it on desktops08:40
ltsmeaning: I don't run devuan on desktops08:41
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDi thought it was still alpha/betaware08:41
ltsIt's a quite mature beta08:41
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDand just an abstraction layer for translating pulse stuff into alsa08:41
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDor jack08:41
ltsA lot less buggy than pulseaudio :-) YMMV08:42
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDit's a freedesktop project so it can't be that good08:43
CAPTCHA_REQUIRED>flatpak08:43
CAPTCHA_REQUIRED>wayland08:43
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDcall me skeptical08:43
ltsBeats pulseaudio08:45
lts:-)08:45
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDI guess? I've still never been stuck in the position where I actually needed pulseaudio08:46
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDexcept for like08:46
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDa proprietary videogame08:46
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDwhich i returned because audio wouldn't work without pulse08:46
humpelstilzchen[CAPTCHA_REQUIRED: you could have used https://github.com/i-rinat/apulse08:50
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDi've tried that before but it didn't work08:51
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDprobably using the wrong sound card?08:51
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDidk08:51
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDthanks though08:52
AfdalI actually don't know many comfy OFTC channels08:59
AfdalI hang around #openttd sometimes08:59
hyrcanuslooks like one of the best developed foss games09:00
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDthere was a resource pack for that game microsoft censored09:01
AfdalYeah it's been around for a while09:01
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDit's on archive.org though09:01
AfdalIt's based on an existing game though09:01
AfdalI'd say Wesnoth, SuperTuxKart, Mindustry are way more impressive overall09:01
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDxonotic09:01
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDdon't forget about xonotic09:01
AfdalI wish I liked Quake deathmatch enough to enjoy Xonotic :'(09:02
hyrcanuswhats mindustry09:03
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDseconded ^09:03
AfdalIt's like...09:03
AfdalFactorio if the Factorio developers actually followed through on their developer roadmap ambitions09:03
hyrcanusthat sounds pretty cool09:03
AfdalImagine an automation game where you make all your units09:04
Afdala cross between automation and RTS09:04
AfdalAlso it's arguably the most successful commercial libre game of all time now09:04
Afdalproving that you can actually success with libre code and commercial sales09:05
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDidk what either of those are09:05
Afdaleither of what09:05
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDmindustry or factoryio09:05
AfdalMindustry is basically a game about building impressive factories to produce units to attack your enemies and base defenses09:06
hyrcanuswith an android and ios client too?09:06
AfdalIt's coded in Java so I think it can run on anything09:07
Afdalbut as to whether you would actually want to play it without a keyboard and mouse...09:07
hyrcanusi prefer portables with keyboards09:09
AfdalOpenTTD is another game that's been ported to phones09:09
Afdalwhich is uh... LOL09:09
hyrcanushow much cpu does mindustry typically use09:10
hyrcanuswhat's low-end hardware for it09:10
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDit's java, so the question should probably be how much ram09:10
hyrcanusyeah that'd be no fun on a small screen09:11
AfdalIt seems to have pretty darn low requirements to me09:11
Afdalit's a pretty simple game at a process level09:11
hyrcanusthe worst thing cpu wise is the www09:12
hyrcanusyou need the equivalent of a cray 1 to display some text and images nowadays09:12
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDon a tablet maybe09:12
hyrcanusand that's a crime09:12
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDhyrcanus, https://www.nuegia.net/articles/open%20letter%20to%20webmasters.xhtml09:13
hyrcanusyes ^09:14
hyrcanusdidn't know about anybrowser.org09:15
hyrcanusi'm joining up09:15
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDthanks09:20
hyrcanusCAPTCHA_REQUIRED: this glyph wasn't in the unicode block drawing set ▬  but incredibly useful09:33
hyrcanus▬▬█▬▬  swiss flag09:33
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDwhat is that relavant to?09:35
Afdalwhat is this torus@ascii.town thing :309:38
hyrcanusascii.town had this glyph in their helpscreen and i've been wanting it for years09:39
hyrcanusit's not in the unicode block graphics section09:39
hyrcanusonly alternative i knew was ━  which is too narrow09:39
AfdalI don't see it09:40
AfdalAll I see is BIG CHUNGUS09:40
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDoh!09:40
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDAfdal, ssh in and find out09:40
AfdalI am :v09:40
AfdalWhere can I learn about more of these cool ssh servers09:43
AfdalI don't even understand how this works09:43
Afdalis this some kind of bash/dash/fish script09:43
hyrcanusthey link to the source09:44
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDAfdal, no09:45
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDit's just an interactive executable in place of a shell09:45
Afdala custom shell09:45
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDin /etc/passwd09:45
Afdalis the program itself a shell?09:45
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDyes09:45
hyrcanusyou can set a user's executable to something besides /bin/bash09:48
hyrcanusa roguelike is fun to dump them in after password entered09:48
hyrcanusif i offered a free shell service, you'd get into your shell only after defeating a monster09:48
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDall /sbin/login does is ass for a username/password and then set the process uid09:48
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDthen exec whatever /etc/passwd says to exec09:49
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDhyrcanus, oh nice09:49
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDinteresting way to prevent abuse09:49
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDdo you have a screenshot of the monster?09:49
hyrcanusi was thinking a simplified brogue09:50
hyrcanusor a game of 'hunt'09:50
Afdalhow about make them get a netris high score09:52
hyrcanusthere we go09:53
Afdalhttps://gitlab.com/tslocum/netris09:55
hyrcanusascii-invaders is rather fun.09:56
Afdalis there ascii-galaga09:56
Afdaloh lawd there is09:57
AfdalGalagASCII09:57
hyrcanusoo where's that09:57
Afdalhttps://github.com/mpoegel/GalagASCII09:57
hyrcanusvery nice, no ncurses09:57
hyrcanushow does 4152 bytes of Controller.cpp turn into 459kB of Controller.o10:01
Afdalhmm is Devuan setup to run any SSD TRIM services automatically at installation?10:27
AfdalI notice a popular TRIM tool runs on systemd10:28
hyrcanuswhat does trim do for me10:28
hyrcanuscan you see two thick and two thin horizontal bars here?  ▬ ━ ▬ ━10:29
Afdalyeah10:29
hyrcanusty10:29
AfdalTRIM moves stuff around on your SSD to level out the amount of wear in different sectors to sustain long-term performance10:30
AfdalI think *buntu is normally setup with some periodic trim command running automatically10:30
hyrcanusi thought ssd firmware should handle that transparently10:31
sixwheeledbeastssd has wear levelling, trim works additionally to that.10:49
sixwheeledbeastThere is no moving it marks areas for cleanup. It's a systemd timer on ubuntu now but it was a cronjob in the past.10:58
DiffieHellmanYes, actually, TRIM just lets the SSD know which sectors are unused (due to file deletions etc) which lets it use those sectors for wear levelling.10:59
DiffieHellmans/unused/no longer used/11:01
sixwheeledbeastshould simply be something to run fstrim from PATH11:01
hyrcanusmy ext4 ssd mount says  the discard operation is not supported11:39
hyrcanusit's on usb3 if that makes a diff11:40
ukinethere is also such thing as "hardware level" (chip on the SSD) "garbage collection"11:46
ukinethat i used to think may have been a useful feature...11:47
ukineoh well :/11:47
hyrcanuswell i do understand now that the ssd firmware needs to be told what's really free sectors11:56
ukine'hardware garbage collection'11:57
ukinei don't know how it may or may not readily identify what fs you're using...11:57
ukinethat would apply obv11:58
ukinepossibly via trim11:58
ukinethat feature could have been an extension of trim11:58
ukine*or is11:59
ukinei'm just a little curious about it at the moment :|11:59
hyrcanushrmph well it seems ext4 isnt the problem13:02
gnarfacehyrcanus: no, it must have been an imposter.  i've never followed any links from you in private before.   please don't spam me again15:42
jlafor simple / local LXC use in devuan... is there something special / particular i need to know ?16:00
* jla reading ... https://wiki.debian.org/LXC16:02
ltsDevuan is my go-to LXC base. Can't recall issues, and I'm just building a new environment so I think I would remember if encountering any in the last week or so.16:07
ltsNo experience with devuan host, though16:07
jlai'm talking more from the devuan host perspective..16:08
jlai mean, i see systemctl lxc services related... commands,  here's why i have my doubts16:11
gnarfacejla: "service [whatever] stop/start" should still work.  they inherited that wrapper's behavior from sysvinit and you can still install it here.   the thing you need to worry primarily about being different is device permissions; you won't even have permission to play audio unless you add yourself to the "audio" group - systemd bypasses all device permission safeties for the local console users16:24
gnarfacewell not just device permissions, filesystem permissions too but you won't have to mess with them unless you're changing something16:24
gnarfaceyou might still have to add yourself to the audio and video group manually16:24
gnarfacedon't worry if you run into trouble with most simple stuff someone here can usually help you16:25
gnarfacethere is tons of built-in documentation though16:25
e3d3Is the name Devuan choosen because of the meaning in Japanese, `Dev plan` according to Google translate ?16:56
brocashelmthe "vua" = veteran unix admins16:58
e3d3really ? so the Japanese meaning is a coincidence ?16:59
gnarfacee3d3: the story i heard was that it's phonetically spelled so it will sound like "dev one" to the internal monologues of the most different international languages16:59
brocashelmhttps://www.devuan.org/os/team16:59
brocashelm"devuan" honestly sounds more french or spanish to me17:00
gnarfacewell the complaint is that actually spelling it "devone" would have only done that for english speakers at the cost of the french and spanish particularly17:01
e3d3aha, the international thing explains why it also fits in Japanese17:01
gnarfaceand the italians i think?17:01
brocashelmi think it's a great name/spelling17:01
gnarfaceyea they really did try to make the name multi-purpose and something that would be familiar sounding in any locale17:01
brocashelmalthough i also like/use refracta :)17:02
e3d3I think I still can pronounce it while I'm drunk. Maybe not so good17:02
e3d3anyway, thanks for the good explanation, and of course for wonderfull Devuan17:04
gnarfaceeyalroz: did you ever get an answer to that?  i'd have to install this to figure it out but it should have documentation really that tells you already and i was fairly sure it's a directory you can see and guess pretty easily in the package list that comes back when you run "dpkg -L iptables-legacy-save"17:08
gnarface(or maybe one of its other related packages)17:09

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