| critr | yeh, looks like it's called dconf-editor now. thx. | 00:03 |
|---|---|---|
| darkeye | Hi everyone, | 08:23 |
| darkeye | I've upraded to ceres and I've got a problem with sound | 08:24 |
| darkeye | there is no sound at all | 08:24 |
| darkeye | what should I do | 08:24 |
| darkeye | help me please | 08:24 |
| xrogaan | ceres is a long way in the future, is it not? | 15:32 |
| sadoon_albader[m | Ceres is the unstable codename, like sid | 15:40 |
| brocashelm | and then there's experimental, which is pandora's box | 15:50 |
| perico | hi everyone, I have a question. How can I add a new language to Devuan? | 15:56 |
| xrogaan | perico: you mean install a new language? | 16:03 |
| perico | yes I'd like install japanese language | 16:04 |
| xrogaan | install: task-japanese | 16:05 |
| xrogaan | and maybe task-japanese-desktop | 16:05 |
| perico | ok, thank you | 16:06 |
| xrogaan | you may want to follow these too: https://wiki.debian.org/ChangeLanguage | 16:08 |
| xrogaan | there are various localization (l10n) packages for all the applications. You might need to install the right one. | 16:09 |
| Hunter[m] | I decided to upgrade from Chimaera to Ceres | 18:25 |
| Hunter[m] | Im having audio popping issues. I had it present before, but pipewire was installed in the dist-upgrade so I assume its added to the mix | 18:25 |
| Hunter[m] | It seems to be worse now | 18:25 |
| Hunter[m] | At one point in the past I tried to use pipewire-pulse but regardless of the tweaking I did it still popped | 18:26 |
| golinux | Hunter[m]: ceres = sid. When you play on the edge of a cliff expect unintended consequences. | 18:36 |
| rwp | I did not think pipewire was packaged for even Unstable yet. Is it? Perhaps that is a local manual installation. In which case maybe it needs updating manually? | 18:38 |
| used____ | I think pipewire, pulse, etc, are taking revenge on Devuan, retaliation against the "competition". Perhaps they detect missing systemd and run in "degraded" mode. Only half joking here. | 18:39 |
| * used____ is on ALSA, no problems since I killed pulse | 18:39 | |
| Hunter[m] | rwp: Pipewire is packaged for all. | 18:39 |
| Hunter[m] | https://wiki.debian.org/PipeWire | 18:40 |
| debdog | Hunter[m]: I'd try with pure alsa and only using alsa tools like aplay. if that popps as well there is the possibility of cost-cutting hardare. | 18:42 |
| debdog | *hardware, of course | 18:43 |
| used____ | Most people run pipewire and or pulse and jack because they think they need it. ALSA alone might not cut it. Especially if Bluetooth audio is involved. If not, then pure ALSA would likely be a solution. | 18:43 |
| rwp | Hunter[m], Thanks for the references. I'll update my pre-compiled brain cache of what I thought was packaged. :-) | 18:44 |
| used____ | Also exactly what sort of "audio popping" noises are we talking about? | 18:44 |
| used____ | It's normal for a big pop when something opens the audio system, before making any sound, it depends on the app, not on the sound system. Firefox makes a big POP when logging into Yahoo. On Youtube, no pop. On Beowulf. | 18:45 |
| debdog | no, that's not 'normal'. | 18:46 |
| used____ | Talk to whoever owns Yahoo nowadays? | 18:46 |
| used____ | And this is ALSA. | 18:46 |
| rwp | I would say that no, popping like that is not normal. | 18:47 |
| used____ | The audio system is not going to fix problems caused by apps using it. | 18:47 |
| used____ | Note: the pop is not always present, depends on whether there is video embedded in the opening page, and also on whether it is the 1st audio session or not. I.e. freshly opened browser or not. | 18:48 |
| debdog | yeah, I have pops with the browser, too. that's a new thing, though. ANY other programme works just well. so 'normal' is different here | 18:49 |
| used____ | Yes, I am sure it depends on the tuple kernel:sound driver:app:time of day:website:website coding skills and attention to detail | 18:50 |
| used____ | The pop is interesting because I have self built bass boosted speakers and pop is a POP. | 18:51 |
| used____ | THUD, | 18:51 |
| debdog | hehe | 18:51 |
| used____ | So it's not like a little click I can ignore. | 18:51 |
| gnarface | ok | 18:52 |
| gnarface | so i've discovered something interesting lately; lots of banner ads seem to turn on the soundcard and play some silent or inaudible clip | 18:52 |
| gnarface | i assume it's subliminal messaging baked in completely illegally and just nobody has noticed because it has also been done completely incompetently | 18:53 |
| debdog | they might communicate with alexa and the other thingy | 18:53 |
| gnarface | but that's neither here nor there; if you have a audio driver however with the bug of "wakes up hardware without muting first" that could explain the random loud pops starting up firefox or the like | 18:53 |
| gnarface | i don't get a loud pop, but i do hear my external speakers engage, it makes some noise | 18:54 |
| used____ | gnarface: your explanation is a possible one. | 18:55 |
| gnarface | there is some known bug with certain versions of certain alsa drivers where this happens | 18:55 |
| gnarface | worth checking into | 18:55 |
| used____ | It used to happen with pulse too. Which I banished. | 18:55 |
| used____ | But do go on, what versions are affected? Link? | 18:55 |
| gnarface | i don't know specific versions but pulse depends on alsa directly, so it can inherit bugs like this | 18:56 |
| used____ | Hm. When I had pulse on, ALSA was not installed. | 18:57 |
| gnarface | it's been a while but the usual suspect is snd_hda_intel, which matches too much different hardware to really pin it down to a particular kernel version | 18:57 |
| used____ | I'm on AMD | 18:57 |
| gnarface | used____: to be clear, ALSA is always installed. it's part of the kernel and you can't avoid it unless you custom built the kernel without ALSA | 18:57 |
| used____ | Oh, ok, did not know. | 18:57 |
| gnarface | used____: if you failed to install the alsa tools though, that might cripple your volume control ability | 18:57 |
| gnarface | (since alsamixer and pavucontrol are not equivalent) | 18:58 |
| used____ | No, I have all alsa tools installed, fluidsynth etc run fine through alsa. | 18:58 |
| gnarface | you can find tons of records going back years about this recurring alsa bug if you just search for "alsa bug loud pop" (without quotes) | 18:59 |
| gnarface | sometimes there may be a way to avoid it with a module option or a updated kernel | 19:00 |
| gnarface | but you can always just manually mute the device before powering up firefox, too | 19:00 |
| gnarface | i think the module options you'd look for would be about disabling power management | 19:03 |
| gnarface | snd_hda_intel power_save=0 power_save_controller=N | 19:03 |
| gnarface | something like this maybe^ | 19:03 |
| gnarface | not sure | 19:03 |
| gnarface | run a /sbin/modinfo -p snd_hda_intel | 19:04 |
| used____ | I do not have snd_hda_intel loaded... | 19:04 |
| used____ | Okay, I lied. It is loaded. | 19:04 |
| gnarface | you'd run "lsmod |grep snd" to look for others | 19:05 |
| used____ | I know, I was sure it is not loaded, but it is. | 19:05 |
| gnarface | you might have more than one | 19:05 |
| used____ | My sound chip is a Realtek thing in AC97 mode I think. | 19:06 |
| used____ | There are several snd_* modules | 19:06 |
| gnarface | well, there's always several but there's a possibility there's more than one audio devices too | 19:06 |
| used____ | What is /etc/tlp.conf ? I do not have it. Arch suggests editing it. | 19:07 |
| gnarface | hmm, dunno. dpkg -S tlp.conf | 19:07 |
| gnarface | ? | 19:07 |
| used____ | It's not installed here. | 19:07 |
| gnarface | never heard of it but that doesn't mean much | 19:07 |
| used____ | https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=267142 | 19:08 |
| gnarface | it could be pipewire config or something arch specific | 19:08 |
| gnarface | oh | 19:08 |
| gnarface | just run update-initramfs | 19:09 |
| gnarface | after you add the module parameters | 19:09 |
| used____ | Yes after settings commited. | 19:09 |
| used____ | Which I did not yet do. | 19:09 |
| gnarface | the module options they suggest look legit | 19:10 |
| used____ | https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Advanced_Linux_Sound_Architecture/Troubleshooting#Pops_when_starting_and_stopping_playback this is the main suspect | 19:10 |
| gnarface | this might have some impact on battery life but should kill the random loud pops | 19:10 |
| used____ | It is not a laptop... | 19:10 |
| gnarface | nevermind then | 19:11 |
| used____ | Thanks for the tips, useful. | 19:11 |
| used____ | https://askubuntu.com/questions/160882/popping-noise-from-laptop-speakers another solution | 19:12 |
| _ds_ | I'd expect several audio devices, in general: the on-board sound (often something Realtek) and a few provided by the GPU. | 19:26 |
| _ds_ | (HDMI audio, typically.) | 19:27 |
| golinux | used____: Perhaps https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=4654 | 19:42 |
| golinux | I think the fix has in another thread. Maybe had to upgrade the kernel | 19:43 |
| used____ | thanks | 19:46 |
| used____ | Modern lower end CPUs have built in sound and graphics. AMD and Intel both. Realtek sound chips are rarer now imo. | 20:19 |
| used____ | I have an old machine. | 20:20 |
| gnarface | my machine is older too, so i don't really know for sure, but i suspect a lot of the stuff coming out right now is still basically just using rebranded realtek stuff | 20:21 |
| gnarface | but you might have to actually look for silkscreening on the chips themselves to know | 20:22 |
| gnarface | (and that's not really a new thing about realtek either; their chips are even in network devices) | 20:23 |
| used____ | The modern cpu's video and audio are on chip in the cpu | 20:31 |
| used____ | Nvidia for example has internal audio. A Realtek chip is also present on the main board but it may not be used depending on what the user selects. | 20:33 |
| Hunter[m] | <debdog> "Hunter: I'd try with pure alsa..." <- The thing is I used FreeBSD for months before Devuan on the same PC (using Razer headset). FreeBSD uses OSS and it works fine, but I have popping on Linux. | 20:38 |
| Hunter[m] | * The thing is I used FreeBSD for months before Devuan on the same PC (using Razer headset). FreeBSD uses OSS and it works fine without any popping, but I have popping on Linux. | 20:38 |
| used____ | Nice, then there is real hope. FreeBSD is more advanced than Linux ;) | 20:39 |
| used____ | Is the Razr USB? I think not? | 20:39 |
| Hunter[m] | No, it was just a hand me down headset with headphone/microphone jacks. I dont care about gaming hardware but it certainly beats the Logitech headset I used before, mainly because it doesnt hurt my ears | 20:41 |
| Hunter[m] | Linux could be using OSS now. Its free software again. Its a shame they ditched it for good. | 20:41 |
| gnarface | they didn't though | 20:44 |
| used____ | I have a problem on Beowulf: hwclock is not updated when daytime savings start/end | 20:44 |
| gnarface | OSS is still in the kernel, though usually the OSS compatibility modules for ALSA are sufficient | 20:44 |
| gnarface | but OSS is still fully supported by Linux | 20:44 |
| used____ | Just had the 1st reboot in months, power outage earlyer, time was shifted. | 20:44 |
| gnarface | what dropped off was commercial game support for OSS | 20:44 |
| used____ | cat gamesound.au >/dev/dsp | 20:45 |
| gnarface | and unfortunately it didn't even drop off completely enough to not still require OSS for some stupid shit (*cough* Tropico 6 *cough*) | 20:45 |
| * used____ hardly ever played any games on Linux, excepting chess and Abuse. | 20:45 | |
| gnarface | used____: are you running ntpd? | 20:45 |
| used____ | My game playing days occurred in 8 bit ZX Spectrum etc days. | 20:46 |
| used____ | gnarface: no. | 20:46 |
| gnarface | used____: afaik hwclock might only sync on startup and shutdown | 20:46 |
| gnarface | unless you're running ntpd then it might sync more often, not sure | 20:47 |
| used____ | That could be it. How does it work? Does it leave a "run once" script somewhere? | 20:47 |
| gnarface | used____: i think so. if you run "hwclock --systohc" it should be able to manually sync though | 20:47 |
| gnarface | unless something actually went wrong with it | 20:47 |
| used____ | Yes, but if you reboot with hard down the new boot will have the unadjusted hwclock time | 20:48 |
| gnarface | yea :-/ | 20:48 |
| used____ | Which is what happened, I think. | 20:48 |
| gnarface | i put batteries on everything these days. our power grid is garbage | 20:48 |
| used____ | USA? | 20:48 |
| gnarface | yea | 20:48 |
| * used____ has no usual power problems, excepting for contractors. That did it today. | 20:49 | |
| Afdal | R: error while loading shared libraries: libicuuc.so.63: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory | 22:06 |
| Afdal | Can someone help me figure out what's wrong with this turd | 22:06 |
| Afdal | R has been broken since I upgraded to Chimaera | 22:06 |
| used____ | what libicuuc.so is present on your system? | 22:13 |
| used____ | Which version. | 22:14 |
| Afdal | libicu67 | 22:14 |
| Afdal | the only version in the repo | 22:15 |
| used____ | Update R? R should not link against a particular version of liicuuc.so anyway | 22:15 |
| Afdal | update R... how? Should I find a .deb somewhere? | 22:16 |
| used____ | First check dependency list of R, does it say depends on libicuuc.so.63 ? Or just libicuuc.so ? | 22:17 |
| Afdal | How do I check dependency list | 22:17 |
| used____ | Debian package page for R lists deps | 22:17 |
| Afdal | which is Chimaera synched with again | 22:18 |
| Afdal | is it Sid | 22:18 |
| used____ | Bullseye? | 22:19 |
| gnarface | ceres is sid | 22:20 |
| Afdal | dep: libicu67 (>= 67.1-1~) | 22:20 |
| Afdal | hmmmm | 22:20 |
| used____ | libicu is the same in bullseye | 22:20 |
| gnarface | incomplete update? | 22:20 |
| used____ | Looks like update is complete but R is not really updated? | 22:21 |
| Afdal | my libicu67 is v67.1-7 | 22:21 |
| used____ | What R version... | 22:21 |
| Afdal | is v67.1-7 less than >= v67.1-1~ | 22:21 |
| used____ | no | 22:21 |
| Afdal | not sure how to read that versioning description | 22:21 |
| used____ | ~ can be ignored | 22:22 |
| Afdal | R v4.0.4-1, same as offered in Debian | 22:22 |
| amesser | which R | 22:23 |
| amesser | ldd `which R` | 22:24 |
| used____ | So someone fumbled the linking step. Do you have just one r binary? | 22:24 |
| used____ | The old version may be lingering. | 22:24 |
| Afdal | hmm how can I check that | 22:24 |
| used____ | Afdal: updatedb; locate -r 'R$' ? | 22:24 |
| used____ | Which will find more but usefully. | 22:25 |
| used____ | locate -r 'bin/R$'; is more useful | 22:25 |
| used____ | Also whereis R | 22:25 |
| Afdal | I see nothing about R from those commands | 22:26 |
| used____ | Really? How do you exec R? | 22:26 |
| Afdal | the previous commands | 22:26 |
| Afdal | whereis tells me some binary locations | 22:26 |
| used____ | Yes, there should be ONE binary location. | 22:26 |
| Afdal | I see a whole bunch :'} | 22:26 |
| used____ | Try ldd on each found "binary location" | 22:26 |
| Afdal | R: /usr/bin/R /usr/lib/R /etc/R /usr/local/bin/R /usr/local/lib/R /usr/share/R | 22:27 |
| used____ | Symlink hell? | 22:27 |
| plasma41 | https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/amd64/r-base-core/filelist | 22:27 |
| used____ | ls -l `locate -r 'bin/R$'` ? | 22:28 |
| amesser | you most likely installed an own build of R in /usr/local | 22:28 |
| Afdal | What is ldd supposed to be telling me | 22:28 |
| used____ | Something like that. | 22:28 |
| used____ | Afdal: some will dep on the "bad" libicu some will be good | 22:28 |
| used____ | That will tell you what to delete manually. | 22:28 |
| Afdal | I think I had to compile it while I was still on Beowulf | 22:28 |
| used____ | Deinstall R, find all remains of the old R and wipe them, then reinstall R. | 22:29 |
| amesser | so your old, self built R version expects a libicu.so.63 which is no more available on chimaera | 22:29 |
| used____ | Simple. | 22:29 |
| used____ | And also is in the path. | 22:29 |
| Afdal | hmm actually maybe I didn't compile it | 22:29 |
| used____ | Afdal: you have more than one copy for sure. | 22:30 |
| Afdal | I have an r-4.1.1_1_amd64.deb downloaded | 22:30 |
| used____ | Or symlinked the h* out of it. | 22:30 |
| Afdal | I might have had that installed before I upgraded to Devuan | 22:30 |
| Afdal | and then Devuan downgraded it back to r-4.0.4 | 22:30 |
| used____ | Afdal: so deinstall using that deb r-4.1.1_1_amd64.deb | 22:30 |
| Afdal | upgraded to Chimaera* | 22:30 |
| amesser | debian won't install anything in /usr/local by itself | 22:30 |
| Afdal | You mean apt doesn't? | 22:31 |
| Afdal | is that a dkpg behavior | 22:31 |
| amesser | no, never | 22:31 |
| Afdal | okay what's the right way to uninstall cleanly... | 22:31 |
| Afdal | R has a lot of dependencies | 22:31 |
| used____ | Yes... | 22:31 |
| used____ | Deinstall the new one using the package manager, then hunt down all old relics and wipe them | 22:32 |
| amesser | if you installed in /usr/local and don't have installer script anymore -> this will be a lot of manual work. | 22:32 |
| Afdal | I'm pretty sure I have the .deb I used to install it earlier | 22:32 |
| used____ | Yes but locate '/share/R/' and locate '/bin/R' will help | 22:33 |
| amesser | could you run dpkg -S /usr/local/bin/R | 22:33 |
| Afdal | what does that do | 22:33 |
| amesser | should show you owner package of that file | 22:33 |
| Afdal | ah yes, after I sudo apt autoremove r-base, I can run R in terminal and it still attempts to load something | 22:33 |
| Afdal | so I must indeed have had two installations | 22:33 |
| Afdal | dpkg-query: no path found matching pattern /usr/local/bin/R | 22:34 |
| Afdal | whereis R | 22:35 |
| Afdal | R: /etc/R /usr/local/bin/R | 22:35 |
| Afdal | mmhmm | 22:35 |
| amesser | so its probably a manual install. You have to get rid of anything in /usr/local belonging to your manual R install | 22:35 |
| used____ | dpkg purge $the_deb_you_linked | 22:35 |
| used____ | I think amesser is right | 22:35 |
| used____ | Run updatedb and use the commands above to locate the relics | 22:35 |
| Afdal | which commands | 22:36 |
| Afdal | you're all throwing too many commands at me @_@ | 22:36 |
| amesser | you wont find libs with that, i'm afraid the old libs in /usr/local could still interferre with chimaera packages | 22:36 |
| amesser | yeah, thats linux :-P | 22:36 |
| used____ | locate '/R/' | 22:36 |
| Afdal | that returns nothing | 22:36 |
| used____ | And again amesser is right | 22:36 |
| amesser | the are two options: | 22:37 |
| used____ | /usr/share/R ? | 22:37 |
| Afdal | whereis R | 22:37 |
| Afdal | R: /etc/R /usr/local/bin/R | 22:37 |
| amesser | 1) go into /usr/local folder and remove anything which looks like to have a captial R and hope that you get all | 22:37 |
| Afdal | those are what remove, apparently | 22:37 |
| used____ | Should be /usr/local/share/R tho | 22:37 |
| amesser | find /usr/local -name \*R\* | 22:38 |
| amesser | should give you a list | 22:38 |
| Afdal | So... rm -r /usr/local/bin/R? | 22:38 |
| amesser | or 2) if you're sure/believe that you have nothing installed in /usr/local, just drop that entire folder content | 22:38 |
| used____ | Is that quoting right for -name amesser ? | 22:38 |
| amesser | yep, it prevents bash from expansion | 22:39 |
| amesser | Afdal: yes, this is the first step | 22:39 |
| * used____ uses '' always for this | 22:39 | |
| amesser | you won't need "-r" since it is a file | 22:39 |
| Afdal | actually apparently everything in my usr/local/bin is a symlink | 22:39 |
| Afdal | is that how it's supposed to be | 22:40 |
| amesser | what tells readlink -f "path-to-link" | 22:40 |
| Afdal | lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 18 Oct 10 16:58 R -> /opt/R/4.1.1/bin/R | 22:40 |
| amesser | ahaha | 22:40 |
| amesser | so yourre R was installed in /opt/R folder (windows style install) and just linked from /usr/local | 22:40 |
| Afdal | R is one of only two programs with stuff in my /opt/ directory | 22:41 |
| Afdal | I take it that's an unconventional place for installing stuff | 22:41 |
| amesser | so it could be sufficent to just remove the /usr/local/bin/R link | 22:41 |
| amesser | since everything else will be in /opt/R | 22:41 |
| Afdal | Can I just remove /opt/R/ | 22:41 |
| amesser | maybe you first just try to remove the ymlink in /usr/local | 22:42 |
| Afdal | by the way isn't there a way to automate this remove by running dpkg on the original .deb file used to install all this stuff? | 22:42 |
| amesser | this should be sufficient /opt/R does not harm. But you can delete it | 22:42 |
| used____ | dpkg purge | 22:42 |
| Afdal | purge what | 22:43 |
| Afdal | the name of the .deb file? | 22:43 |
| used____ | $.deb | 22:43 |
| amesser | "dpkg -S /opt/R" should show the dpkg package name which was used to install | 22:43 |
| Afdal | dpkg purge r-4.1.1_1_amd64.deb | 22:43 |
| Afdal | dpkg: error: need an action option | 22:43 |
| Afdal | how do you use this kajigger correctly | 22:43 |
| amesser | for uninstalling you don't need .deb | 22:44 |
| amesser | just package name | 22:44 |
| Afdal | well there's no package name in autocomplete | 22:44 |
| Afdal | dpkg already thinks I've removed everything related to it | 22:44 |
| amesser | try that dpkg -S command above | 22:44 |
| amesser | should give you a name. | 22:44 |
| Afdal | dpkg -S /opt/R | 22:44 |
| Afdal | r-4.1.1: /opt/R | 22:44 |
| amesser | so try apt purge r-4.1.1 | 22:45 |
| Afdal | aha | 22:45 |
| Afdal | now it's gone | 22:45 |
| used____ | yay | 22:45 |
| amesser | they put the package version into the package name | 22:45 |
| amesser | very unusual | 22:45 |
| used____ | which R says what? | 22:45 |
| Afdal | I think the purpose for that is to have multiple installations | 22:46 |
| used____ | amesser: it may be a non debian package. Ubuntu? | 22:46 |
| amesser | well, yes | 22:46 |
| Afdal | for example when you want to use an IDE and choose which version of hte language to use | 22:46 |
| amesser | most likely, yes | 22:46 |
| Afdal | very important for replication | 22:46 |
| Afdal | in sciences, where R is mainly used | 22:46 |
| amesser | yep i know, have to maintain several compilers for arm in different versions... | 22:46 |
| Afdal | hmm I still have some things floating in /etc and /usr/local/bin | 22:47 |
| used____ | Afdal: where did you get that .deb? Ubuntu? | 22:47 |
| Afdal | apt purge didn't get em all | 22:47 |
| Afdal | I think I got it from an official R repository | 22:47 |
| used____ | Was it self contained or were there several packages for deps. | 22:48 |
| gnarface | always use the version in the devaun repos first unless it doesn't work after testing (dumb version checks are often irrelevant because debian backports important patches) | 22:48 |
| gnarface | if you want to build your own packages you have to know the right configure options to make paths and prefixes and stuff match | 22:48 |
| gnarface | most times the defaults will be subtly wrong | 22:49 |
| amesser | well, it could be that /usr/local/bin contains now some dangling symlinks. Maybe they have been created by some kind of post-install script and now are not removed | 22:49 |
| amesser | just remove them manually | 22:49 |
| amesser | the same for /etc/R directory. better remove it to avoid unexpected content/setting | 22:50 |
| amesser | after cleanup, you should get working R by installing r-base-core | 22:50 |
| amesser | sorry, have to go now. | 22:50 |
| amesser | good luck! | 22:51 |
| Afdal | thanks for the help | 22:51 |
| amesser | your welcome! | 22:51 |
| Afdal | I wish it was easier to catalog when you manually install stuff -_- | 22:51 |
| Afdal | bingo, my R is working again \:o/ | 22:52 |
| gnarface | Afdal: use checkinstall when you manually install stuff | 22:52 |
| Afdal | for existing .debs? | 22:52 |
| Afdal | or just for compiling stuff | 22:53 |
| gnarface | Afdal: it creates a package on-the-fly from any "make install" command so if you screw up you at least have an easy way to remove it and as many chances to retry as you want | 22:53 |
| Afdal | yeah I do that now these days | 22:53 |
| gnarface | Afdal: you just, instead of running "make install" you run "checkinstall make install" and follow the onscreen instructions | 22:53 |
| Afdal | yup | 22:53 |
| gnarface | actual catalog of package installs is in /var/log/apt/ | 22:54 |
| Afdal | the issue with this was it had a nonstandard package name that make it tricky to recognize it was a different version of something already in the Devuan repos | 22:54 |
| Afdal | ah | 22:54 |
| Afdal | that sounds familiar | 22:54 |
| gnarface | all the logs are in /var/log, and most of them are meant to be human-readable. you should poke around in there when you're curious | 22:55 |
| used____ | Unless running systemd... | 22:56 |
| gnarface | well systemd is trying to create a harmful culture that's hostile to standard system administration competence, but that's why we're here | 22:56 |
| Afdal | Can you even run systemd on Devuan | 22:56 |
| gnarface | you cannot | 22:56 |
| Afdal | \;o/ | 22:57 |
| used____ | systemd is trying to optimize a revenue stream by selling "easy administration and quick cloud booting" to Red Hat's main clientele. | 22:57 |
| gnarface | well, i don't know for sure that you couldn't pull it off. i'm sure you could with a manual build and install, but the package manager will definitely prevent you from installing it accidentally | 22:57 |
| Afdal | I'm having to deal with a CloudLinux server right now | 22:57 |
| Afdal | it's a turd | 22:57 |
| used____ | Your turds are other people's cash cows. | 22:58 |
| gnarface | yea, that's the broken window fallacy. but it's also off-topic. | 22:58 |
| * gnarface points at #devuan-offtopic | 22:58 | |
| Afdal | ur off-topic | 22:58 |
| used____ | The turds are cash cows because slow bloated cloud hosts sell bandwidth and disks. Done off topic. | 23:02 |
| Hunter[m] | <gnarface> "OSS is still in the kernel..." <- Linux packages arent usually built with OSS in mind though. Also you have to blacklist ALSA to get OSS | 23:06 |
| gnarface | yea but it's also usually not a problem for linux packages because they typically don't break the rules really bad due to some developer's miserable angst against being forced to "support" a linux build | 23:08 |
| gnarface | so it's usually not a big deal to change between them | 23:08 |
| gnarface | the real problem comes when you have closed-source, binary-only software from outside the distro that is hardwired to some dumb default because they couldn't properly set up their own dev system | 23:09 |
| Afdal | to be fair... Unix file hierarchy standards are confusing nonsense -_- | 23:09 |
| Afdal | We should all standardize around GoboLinux ;y | 23:10 |
| Afdal | Apparently Debian's /usr merge in 2016 was borrowed from GoboLinux actually | 23:11 |
| Afdal | okay maybe not | 23:14 |
| Afdal | some tard on Wikipedia says so but the citation doesn't pan out | 23:14 |
| Hunter[m] | <Afdal> "We should all standardize around..." <- This is the first time Ive heard of this distro. Looked it up and love the concept. | 23:18 |
| Afdal | :v | 23:18 |
| Hunter[m] | Modern Unix-likes are already far ahead of the competition but I feel the actual Unix hierarchy standards are really dumb | 23:20 |
| Hunter[m] | /etc/, /usr/etc, /usr/local/etc 😮 | 23:20 |
| Afdal | "/etc/... like et cetera? What the heck is that?!" | 23:21 |
| gnarface | still offtopic, but you'd like OSX... right up until about the hundredth time you had to type /User/Libraries/Applications/Frameworks/QuickTime/9.1.4932.3/Whatever | 23:25 |
| gnarface | trust me it gets really annoying | 23:25 |
| gnarface | the debian fhs is perfectly sane in historical context and is documented heavily in multiple places: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_Hierarchy_Standard | 23:26 |
| gnarface | (remember this stuff was written at a time where character counts affected performance and directory lookups were expensive) | 23:27 |
| gnarface | and really there isn't a whole lot to commit to memory, it sticks quite easily once you get past the somewhat terse wordings | 23:29 |
| Afdal | it's unintuitive gibberish is what it is | 23:29 |
| Afdal | You know where Windows keeps all its system files? | 23:30 |
| Afdal | In the /WINDOWS/ folder | 23:30 |
| gnarface | and still manages to lose stuff | 23:30 |
| Afdal | simple and straightforward... | 23:30 |
| Hunter[m] | The Windows file hierarchy isnt much better | 23:33 |
| Hunter[m] | Outside of the Windows folder, everything else is unintuitive | 23:33 |
| Hunter[m] | * the Windows and Users folder, everything | 23:34 |
| * rrq thinks Yay! let's reduce to just a single #irc channel to all sorts of comments | 23:34 | |
| golinux | Rant's belong in #devuan-offtopic. | 23:34 |
| golinux | - ' | 23:34 |
| Afdal | this is oppressive ;_;7 | 23:35 |
| golinux | Grow up . . | 23:35 |
| Hunter[m] | To be fair, having a million rooms where you have to take a discussion is what Discord does. Its retarded over-micromanagement | 23:38 |
| gnarface | spoken like someone who's never been to #debian and seen the non-stop shit-slinging fest that turns into nightly | 23:42 |
| gnarface | we're supposed to be reserving this channel for support issues and so far that has worked very well... for support issues | 23:42 |
| Afdal | some channels can pull it off | 23:42 |
| Afdal | #voidlinux is the comfy zone | 23:43 |
| brocashelm | this channel is only for devuan support/questions. this saves the devs time as they scroll back on the chat logs, so you should take all non-support talk to #devuan-offtopic | 23:55 |
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