libera/#devuan/ Tuesday, 2018-06-26

freemwhere could I ask about things about scripts depending on bash, and not dash?00:03
nacellemaybe #bash ?00:04
freemI'm speaking about making devuan essential packages not depending on bash, nacelle.00:05
nacellenow your question is a bit more clear00:05
nacellethat seems appropriate for here00:06
nacellemight as well just ask00:06
freemI mean, I had a stupid idea few weeks ago, and this was to build a really minimal system. Basically, I realized busybox can do a lot of things, and maybe other tools too, so I'd thought "hey, what about providing them as debian alternatives? this would only help portability right?"00:06
msiismfreem: you mean poartability between shells?00:08
freemI tried to do it myself a bit, but, hacking shell scrtipts of thousands lines is not really easy00:08
freemmsiism, yes, basically, it's that00:08
msiismis ash just a subset of bash?00:08
freemin a way, it is00:08
nacelleits more like bourne than bash00:09
nacelleand for the purpose of your question, it should be no00:09
freembut there are differences that are not minor00:09
msiismwell, bash is a superset of the bourne shell, so.00:09
msiismfreem: between bash and dash or bash and ash?00:10
msiism(load of ash there)00:10
nacellecould one reasonably expect bugs if dash where to replace bash in all of the init/etc. scripts?00:10
nacellethats the question, and I believe the answer is yes, one could.00:10
nacelleso its a larger undertaking00:10
freemnacelle, so, as I think, there is no way atm to guarantee a correct system without bash. It's ok.00:11
msiismfreem: maybe ask in #debian if there is rule on that00:11
freemActually, I've only noticed the bash sheband in apt and minor packages00:11
msiismlike that init scripts have to be dash-campatibale to be integrated00:11
freemmsiism, my main problem about bash dependency is apt, honestly. It's the foundation of Debian00:12
freemI have not took enough time to check if the dependency is real  though00:13
msiismwell, the package "apt-get" doesn't dpend on bash, as far as i can see.00:14
freemtbh, i would like to build a system that only depends on busybox, and.... well, debian's essentials have more dependencies to bash than devuan00:14
freemyou are true, but, when you inspect the files, you see that apt shebangs asks for bash00:15
freemit was a surprise for myself too00:15
freemtbh it's more for sport and system understanding than real work00:16
freemudev do include scripts depending on bash, unlike eudev, that's why devuan is more bash-free.00:17
msiismfreem: is there a speical reason you're you're trying to do that? i mean bash is fat, but busybox is really base.00:17
freemmsiism, for sport.00:17
freemI mean, I think it's really fun to tinker with my system to make it more efficient00:18
msiismif you want something more efficent but with still a good deal of functionality, it's probably better to replace bash with ksh00:18
freemand, I hope some day I could build a system a decent coder could understand all the code lines00:19
msiismusing busybox might cause other problems00:19
freemmaybe, but, is it iso-functionnal with bash, in terms of scripts?00:19
freemyeah, but, that's where the fun lies00:20
msiismfor example, it includes only minimalistic variants of the usual unix utilities.00:20
freemI wan't to learn more about my system00:20
freemthis is true, and a desired goal00:21
freemwhith a minimal toolset, you can reach better portability00:21
msiismso, if you replace gnu coreutils and other gnu tools with busybox, this might cause a whole lot of trouble.00:21
freemfor example, you could then imagine using another kernel than linux00:21
msiismyou can use bash in freebsd.00:22
msiismyou can probably use it on any nix on which it compiles.00:22
msiismi mean, compiles00:23
freemI agree, this is only for fun and to allow some interested people to be able to maintain the whole system00:23
freemI understand if you think it's silly. After all, it is.00:23
freembut I still wanna do it.00:23
msiismi don't think it's silly. but i wouldn't do it. (i already have my pet projects :) )00:23
msiismok then, your aiming for ash compatibility not dash, right?00:24
freemI thought debian, or devuan, would be a good base, but, apt itself have some deps, sadly00:24
freemat least, ash, in a 1st step, dunno what POSIX says about the shell00:25
msiismfreem: must be in the open groups base specifications.00:25
freemI'm almost certain a distro could be built with linux and busybox, which integrates an init system. I'm curiouss about the size it would take00:26
KatolaZfreem: ash should be POSIX-compliant AFAIK00:26
freemgood news00:26
msiismfreem: alpine linux uses busybox.00:26
freemyeah, but not for the init AFAIK00:27
msiismi don't remember00:27
freemthey use OpenRC, and busybox seems to integrate the one I'm a fanboy of, namely, runit.00:27
freemnothing wrong here, for sure, but hey, runit is... well, I'm in love with it.00:28
KatolaZfreem: the rough plan is to include native support for runit and other inits in Devuan00:29
KatolaZand for other process managers00:29
freemI won't force the world to take runit, but, it's simplicity, it's ease of use...00:29
KatolaZlike s6 or prep00:29
freemKatolaZ, well, then, I could try to give a hand despite my low skills. But, it would be really nice if devuan could reach some old debian's goals: multi-kernels00:30
msiismfreem: i think that should be possible. only someone would have to maintain it.00:31
freemI mean, Debian used to have variants for other kernels, which where abandoned for... hum... reasons I do not know00:31
msiismfreem: how about systemd as a reason?00:31
freemI do not wanna troll, today.00:32
msiismfreem: you don't have to.00:32
freemanyway, I don't care.00:32
freemfact is, to close to standards basic tools are, the more probable you can achieve portability.00:33
freemapt is not portable since it depends on bash, which is essential mostly for that. It's sad, imo.00:34
msiismfreem: but how do you know it really depends on bash?00:35
freemAFAIR aptitude C++ code is ugly, dpkg is hard as hell to read00:35
Centurion_Danfreem: you sure about that?  It's not a dependency...00:35
msiismfreem: have you tried removing bash and using apt? maybe dash does the job as well.00:35
freemmsiism, I'm not really sure, it just use the shebang00:35
Centurion_DanIt seems to me it's written in C++ and python..00:36
freemCenturion_Dan, well, shebangs said it, before hundred lines of code00:36
msiismCenturion_Dan: i was wondering about that as well00:36
msiismfreem: can you name a file?00:36
freemI had, in the past, dependency problems with debian, because of my minimal system00:37
freemmsiism, sure, let me ask my system00:37
Centurion_Danless /usr/bin/apt shows apt is a compiled ELF file... where's the shell script??00:37
freemgive me few more minutes please, starting a VM I've installed thtough debootstrap00:39
freembut in the meantime, you can do a simple search00:40
freemhum, basically, Centurion_Dan, you only searched about a binary, that says nothing about what this one calls. You would need a grep for that00:41
msiismyes, i've done that00:44
msiismi've run "for f in $(find . -type f); do grep "bash" "$f"; done" over the extracted .deb package of apt.00:44
msiismit finds three bash shebangs00:45
freeman easy test for that is, "cd /tmp; mkdir foo; cd foo; apt-get source apt; grep '^#!/bin/bash'"00:45
freemthat's an interesting result msiism.00:46
freemthat would mean, that the packages I've found that depend on bash are only the 3 I've noticed myself, which are providing important services.00:47
msiismthe files are ./usr/lib/dpkg/methods/apt/install, ./usr/lib/dpkg/methods/apt/update, ./usr/share/bug/apt/script00:47
freemhum. I've found them myself, but I've found others IIRC, 2 or 3 more maybe.00:48
freemmay I ask you what kind of system you use?00:49
msiismhere's loop i used to get the file name:
msiismfreem: i use Devuan ASCII00:50
freemsure, but it means just nothing. My colleagues where surprised today, fooled by some appearances, they thought I was using ubuntu00:51
msiismwell, apt is apt, is it not?00:51
freemI mean, do you aim to minimal system? Which DE are you using? etc.00:51
freemtrue, but, could you give me a dpkg --get-selections ?00:52
freemthis only gives the list of installled packages on the system00:52
msiismi aim for minimalism, but not spartanism. ok, let me see00:53
msiismi do have quite some stuff instaleld i never use, though00:53
freemas every tinker :)00:53
freemI'm grateful for your help00:54
msiismhere's the list of installed packages from my system:
freemthere are not that many scripts depending on bash, listing them could help porting them, which in turm might help building more minimal systems, with less hard dependencies00:56
freemmore thant 2k packages.... are you a coder?00:56
freemoh, lot of i386 packages, might divide the real number by almost 200:58
msiismfreem: as for "coding", i'm doing stuff in bash, learing tcl (and beginning to find it awkward) and also look into C sometimes.00:59
freemanyway, with that, only 1 package contained the '^#/bin/bash' shebang? Thats surprising, I had at a few more, but yes, not that many00:59
freemit's enough to me to consider you as a coder01:00
msiismfreem: i think you need to think about what you are searching for first.01:00
msiismfreem: i call it scripting or programming, though ;)01:00
freemI had more data sunday, but, can't remember how I gathered them on my system01:00
msiismfreem: the 3 files i found are apt of Debian's apt package01:00
msiismpart of...01:01
freemyes, apt was the major one dependent package01:01
freemTo reach my goal, I'll have to read the apt's file to check if they really need bash01:02
msiismif you want a minimal system, you should probably first draw up a package list.01:02
freemyeah, this, I've already done, partially01:03
freemfact is, installing busybox replaces a lot of packages, but needs some manual interventions ( like 'ln -s /bin/busybox /usr/local/bin/my_exec'01:04
freemthis is something I'd like to change. Minor contribution, but....01:04
msiismwhy do you need the link?01:05
freemthe link would be a 1st step to providing system alternatives01:05
freemfor example, if less is not installed but busybox is, you use less, where 'busybox less' would be more useful01:06
freemon the other hand, busybox is an alien01:06
freemusing the 1st argument as commant name (instead of 0rd).... they may be the 1st one to do that.01:07
freemthat approach is well suited to some of the uses I might have at work, and, it's also pretty interesting01:08
msiismfreem: ok, i see. so, you'd have to alias everything to make it work like a usual linux system?01:09
msiismbut then, if your shell was ash, wouldn't it do that automatically?01:10
freemexport, and alias01:10
freemwell, I'm not skilled enough to be exact, but it seems that, when using busybox ash, some commands are built-ins01:11
freemfor reference about perfs might be interesting to see the other point of view01:12
freemI don't say I agree.01:12
msiismfreem: i think that using busybox only really makes sense when you really use just that, so ash would be your default shell and all the tools provided by busybox.01:13
freemtbh, I'd like a distro that is based on releases, but that would be hacker centric01:13
msiismwell, stali is hacker-centric for sure :)01:14
freemmsiism, then, you forgot all the times you break your system and do not know how to use that damned busybox that do not even have manpages01:14
freemstali is a bit too much for me atm :)01:15
msiismfreem: well, but wanting to use busybox, you've been asking for that.01:15
freembut I'd love a distro that says "hey, all my code is ready to be read", instead of "hey, my code is FOSS".01:15
msiismthe thing is that busybox, as you well know, is not just a shell, but a whole suite of userspace tools (if that's the correct term).01:16
freemmsiism, no, I discovered that when playing with debian, and had broken my system01:16
freemI was then defenseless with the debian's castrated busybox01:17
msiismfreem: which parts of the code contained in devuan are not ready to be read (except non-free, i mean)?01:17
freemeven recently, I've discovered that debian's doc about  busybox is not synced with real features01:18
msiismfreem: maybe because it ships an older version.01:18
freemmsiism, I have not say it the way I thought it. I wanted to say, a system that all  code would be eventually maintainable by a little team01:19
freemmsiism, no, not only an old version, but flags are patched01:20
freemcompilation flags are patched, but do not reflect in doc01:20
freeman example is cron (and it's example crontab), that do not support the @stuff, in practice, but in manpages they do01:21
msiismfreem: ok, i don't know anything about that.01:22
freemno problem01:22
msiismjust as a hint (if it's allowed in here...): if you want unpatched packages, have a look at slackware.01:22
freemthose things are ones I"ve discovered by pratice, trying to build an embedded system01:22
msiismok, i see01:23
freemslackware interests me a lot, but, I fear I'm not skilled enough01:23
msiismthey have pretty decent docs...01:24
msiismfreem: btw, you were asking about my desktop setup earlier. i use openbox.01:24
freemopenbox is only a wm, so I assume you use your own set of tools with it?01:25
msiismwell, the combination is my own, not the tools themselves. but that's what you meant, i guess. so, yes.01:26
msiismi've recently also found ctwm to be worth a try.01:26
freemctwm? What are it's selling points?01:28
msiism1. it look reasonably old-school-weird.01:28
msiism2. it's based on twm.01:29
freemI mean, I'm using a tiling wm, so I don't care about appearance, but i do care about ease of use01:29
msiism3. it does have some unique concepts of how window resizinf i handled (but maybe they are from twm, i don't know)01:30
freembased on twm, the software? This include the built-in config?01:30
msiismyes, twm, the wm ( as for the config, i don't know. probably parts of it.01:31
* msiism thinks twm is actually short for "the window manager"01:32
freemI think I remember another wm named twm that stands for tiling window manager, with fully compiled in config01:35
freemI know C, C++ and more, but, to be honest, hacking code to change setup is too much effort for me. Also, I hate macros.01:36
msiismfreem: people have a tiling wm, iirc.01:36
freemmsiism, yes, but,as I said, I hate macros, and suckless guys write code that sucks more than needed on that point of view01:37
freemI have the luck at work to be the only one who  know about how macros can help. I hide their mechanics as much as possible, because it's  a that huge pain to debug code that include macros01:39
msiismi see. don't have any experience in that area, however.01:42
freemback to the subject, is devuan aiming at supporting other kernels or systems different than GNU?01:42
freemmsiism, you lucky guy01:42
freempowerful tools tend to be misused01:43
msiismfreem: it's not blocking any efforts int hat direction.01:43
freemmacros and templates are powerful.01:43
freemnot enough manpower is the only condition then?01:44
msiismpossibilities of Devuan/Hurd and Devuan/kFreeBSD have been discussed at the dev meeting occasionally.01:44
freemdo you know anything about that?01:44
msiismafaik, there a open doors there if anyone wants to walk in.01:44
freemmaybe an irc chan, a mailing list or a wiki to try?01:46
msiismthis might interest you:
msiismfreem: well, devuan has all that already.01:46
freemtrue, but, it's not really advertised01:48
msiismfreem: paragraph 6 in the e-mail linked above, btw.01:48
freemI know about IRC and other stuff because I more than 20 years old...01:48
freemI'm still reading it01:49
freema funny passage is01:49
freemthe most important thing is to not repeat the same error that01:49
freemDebian does: to not rule out manuals licensed with invariant sections.01:49
freemit's not debian that did this, but FSF!01:49
msiismyou need to remove the second "not", i think01:50
msiismfreem: how do you mean?01:50
freemIt's FSF that is against DFSG rules by using a closed licence on doc01:51
msiismwell, they use CC or GFDL, afaik.01:52
freemDFSG says that that all free softwares should be free as in free beer, free as in free speech, and fully modifiable AFAIR01:52
freemGFDL is *not* fully modifiable, and thus, not free IIRC01:53
msiismwell, generally, it's a pain to read.01:54
freemf we tolerate that manuals can have SOME invariant01:54
freemsections, especially for sections covering ethical aspects rather than01:54
freemtechnical ones01:54
freemI just can't agree with that01:54
freemethical? What is that?01:54
msiismwell, that's GNU. they're on mission and want to communicate that.01:55
freemyeah, but I'm an open source follower, not an FSF one?01:55
msiismbut i think that should not hold devuan back from including valuable documentation.01:55
msiismi can live with some invariant section if the docs are decent01:56
freemDebian do include doc that does not fit the rules. Just, not by default.01:56
msiismthat might be one reason why it's missing the findutils documentation (i'll have to find that out)01:57
freemFSF forbid using non-free softwares while they provided non-free licences. Debian only integrates real FOSS stuff in main repo, but can provide non-free stuff in non-free repos, and that's the reason FSF does not recommend using it01:58
freemseriously, the info command is so hard to use that having it installed won't do you any good.01:58
freemI tried it.01:59
msiismfreem: "off the record": i never use info. ;) but others might do.01:59
freemI pity them01:59
freemimo, it's a tool made just to let the world know that the FSF did something else than GCC and GDB.02:00
freemand as GCC and Bash, it's slow, hard to use.02:01
Centurion_Danis it GNU and FSF bashing day??02:02
freemit's just my opinion02:02
msiismi actually like Bash quite a lot, though my scripts would probably run in ksh as well.02:02
freembut, I'm ok to change it, if someone can provide arguments.02:02
Centurion_Daninfo would probably be half reasonable if it's info pages where up to date and linked properly... but it fails to do that, and it's usage is not well documented...02:04
msiismand then was info developed?02:04
freemmsiism, the fact I prefer zsh over bash should never imply me writing low level scripts only for zsh02:04
msiisms then/when02:05
Centurion_Danman pages have proven to be better both to maintain and use the info.02:05
freemCenturion_Dan, did you tries to use it? You ask info on something, and it replies about it's own doc!02:05
freemI'll need a tutorial on info, when on man I never need one02:06
Centurion_Danheh, I get "command not installed" in response to info...02:06
Centurion_Danit's not even installed by default.02:06
freemyes, info is not installed by default, especially on minimal systems02:06
freemalso, when you install it, it rarely contains more than a copy of manpages02:07
Centurion_DanI haven't used info in years anyway...02:07
msiismi have it on my system02:07
freemmy opinion: it's a piece of crap. Hard to use, no real content, only non-free content.... to bin, is the destination.02:07
msiismbut "bin" is not the trash bin in unix...02:08
msiism/usr/bin/info :)02:08
Centurion_Danfreem: fair enough... I wouldn't go that far... I'd say it'02:08
freemI'm still open, if someone can provide me any good reason to install info-related stuff....02:09
freemexcept that the fact it uses emacs-like keyboards shortcuts, of course.02:09
Centurion_Dan is obsoleted largely by html and browsers, and on that score I'm pleased many packages have split out their documentation so it can be installed without installing the package...02:09
msiismfreem: it might have more than man pages in some situations. sometimes man pages will state that more detailed info is to be found in an info page.02:10
Centurion_Danfreem: I've never bothered to use emacs either... I'm a vim guy..02:10
freemmsiism, and so often, you have to guess the exact command to reach that, and too often it fails with a default page that let you helpless.02:11
freemCenturion_Dan, same here. At least, you can use any POSIX OS with vi.02:11
msiismfreem: probably. i'm not trying to defent it.02:11
freemmsiism, it's sad. I'll be happy to learn the advantages of that tool. It must have some, after all, even if I do not like it.02:12
msiismfreem: not every tool is for everyone.02:13
freemmsiism, true enough. But, I would happy to meet someone that use info. Really.02:14
Centurion_Danit would be ok if it had a decent index and every package provided good quality info pages... but that's not been the case in a long time, so it's not "very useful" as the Fat Controller would say...02:14
freembut, they could generate such from manpages, since manpages actually does that from groff02:15
freemalso, the only stuff I can find on info and not on manpages are stuff that can't be modified.... and thus, non-free.02:16
freemlike gdb doc.02:16
msiismfreem: maybe you should tyr to discuss that in #gnu  :)02:17
freemwhy? It's not a discussion here, I just say facts that fit's debian original point of view02:19
freemDFSG and FSF have a different point of view. It's ok for me.02:19
freemI should say, that fit's my understanding of the DFSG the 1st time I've read them02:21
freems/should say/sould have said/g02:21
msiismi should probably also give them a re-read sometime soon02:22
freemsame here, maybe they changed stuff or I had bad interpretations02:23
freemI wonder, is devuan keeping on the DFSG ?02:23
Centurion_Danfreem: I'm sitting on the fence on this one... on the one hand it would be advantageous to be able to have invariant information - to preserve the integrity of the information shared and to give context... on the other hand it seems 2 faced to require all software to be free and open and yet want to protect parts of the documentation associated - especially if what is supposed to be protected as "invariant" is actually political and02:24
msiismis there a helper bot for chatspeak in here?02:26
freemanyway, we can have history through certified DVCS, why should invariants be added?02:26
freemexept for politics, I mean02:26
msiismi think that's why they are added. though there may be other reasons, too.02:27
XenguyBe back later, surely02:27
msiismthe GFDL says things about that.02:27
freemyeah, it does says that documentation should keep history. IIRC.02:28
* Xenguy doesn't understand the 'invariant' issue...02:28
msiismXenguy: you can define so-called invariant sections when you license your docs with GFDL02:29
freemXenguy, if something is invariant, then it's not modifiable, and so, it's not respecting the 4 liberties of FOSS.02:29
freemand the GFDL, a FSF licence for doc, do provides features that gives invariants on said document, no restriction on parts. So, a source code on GFDL would be free for them, but you would not have the right to change it02:31
freemso, it's a closed source licence.02:31
freemhum, a non-free licence* I meant02:32
msiismfreem: that's not true.02:32
freemwhat is not true?02:33
msiismalso FSF/GNU do recommend GPL for source code, even in GFDL-licensed docs.02:33
msiismand there is no such thing as invariant sections in gpl, iirc.02:34
msiisma gfdl-licensed document will allow you to change any part of it, except invariant sections.02:35
freemthey recommend, which means, they do not forbid the use of GFDL for code, right?02:35
freemand that's the problem02:35
freemexept for invariant sections, event if they are desync02:36
freemit has been made, IIRC, for a noble goal, to remind contributors02:36
msiisminvariant sections have to be "secondary sections" by definition, meaning not an integral part of the wokr content-wise.02:37
freembut intellectual property was also made with noble goals02:37
msiismi doubt that02:38
freemwhat is a secondary section?02:38
freemnice info page. Hard to link to the intersting section. Do you have some word I could search for?02:41
msiism"secondary section"02:43
msiism"invariant section"02:43
freemheh, so, yes, invariant sections describe non free restrictions02:44
msiismsure, they do.02:44
freemThe relationship could be a matter of historical connection with the subject or with related matters, or of legal, commercial, philosophical, ethical or political position regarding them.02:44
freemin other words, one could say a document under said licence could not be used by communists, for example.02:45
freemfreedom should be for everyone, only it's bad use should be restricted02:46
msiismfreem: you need to discuss that with rms.02:46
freemand bad should be defined by countries, I guess02:46
freemI never had the chance to meet him02:47
freemirc and mailing lists are the only way for me to contact people with decent knowledge about computers tbh02:48
msiismfreem: hold on, i got sth for you02:52
freemhard time to ind the keywords anew?02:56
msiismok, i gotta go.02:58
freemI've got to go too. Good night03:17
DeeEffHey all, got a question about NVIDIA drivers, anyone here able to assist?05:28
DeeEffBasically my problem is that when I call `glxinfo | grep -i opengl` it says my vendor is VMWare (this is a physical machine) and that it's using Mesa for libGL05:28
DeeEffI want it to use the proprietary nvidia drivers but don't know what I'm diong wrong.05:28
DeeEffSo far it seems I'm using the proprietary drivers with X, just not with opengl05:28
gnarfaceDeeEff: on ascii?  the default is to use the open source "nouveau" driver05:51
gnarfacei'm not sure, but even if you install the nvidia official closed-source binary driver you may have to manually blacklist nouveau to keep it from loading first05:52
gnarfacemake sure to use the drivers from the non-free section of the repo though05:52
DeeEffI'm on ceres, but that's not important. The problem isn't nouveau, since I've already uninstalled that.05:52
gnarface(the nvidia installer shell script from causes additional problems of it's own)05:52
gnarfacehmmm. run this: dpkg -l |grep nvidia -i05:53
DeeEffRight now my issue is the libGL provider, which is Mesa, whereas I want it to dispatch to always use my GLX provider, Nvidia05:53
gnarfaceyea, maybe a broken symlink to libGL.so05:53
gnarfacedid you use the packages in the repo, or did you use the shell script from
gnarfacelike i said, the shell script has known problems, but the nvidia packages in ceres don't have a spotless record ither05:54
DeeEffAs far as I can tell this is correct05:55
DeeEffI think part of the confusion is that mesa can sometimes dispatch to GLX if you have DRI configured05:55
DeeEffbut I have no idea how one would set that up05:55
gnarfaceapt-get install libgl1-nvidia-glx:amd64 libgl1-nvidia-glx:i38605:56
gnarfacewhat does this do?^05:56
DeeEffbreaks everything05:56
DeeEffI have tried that05:56
DeeEffthose require the nonglvnd drivers, which don't seem to work at all so all my libgl stuff breaks05:57
gnarfacei just ran into this yesterday, and that's what fixed it for me :(05:57
gnarfaceeither they broke it worse today or it's a hardware difference i'm guessing05:57
DeeEffprobably a hardware difference. I'm running a 650Ti05:57
gnarfacenope, same hardware05:57
gnarfacethey must be breaking stuff back there05:59
gnarfaceDeeEff: i gotta go, but here, compare it to my package list, i'll be back:
gnarface(maybe if you can get yours to match this it'll work )06:00
bozoniusinstalling devuan ascii on my test box, real hardware this time.  Had some challenges getting networking to work, but that's a separate issue having to do with my peculiar environment, using virtual fw appliances, etc.   Got that working.07:40
bozoniusOnly issue actually, in the end, was the package selection step.  Again, would not let me pick different desktops (didn't we talk about this already?).  I went with default for the desktop, but I did select command line productivity and it allowed  that.07:41
bozoniusso, overall, not too bad.  I realize, again, that this sort of feedback would have been more useful (maybe) during the testing phase for ascii.07:42
bozoniusI hope to participate in testing the next version though.  I am wondering if anything could be done about the rather clumsy "expert" graphical install07:42
bozoniusseems like it goes beyond mere "expert" and more like a PhD is required in all things *nix*07:43
bozonius(including bugs and the like)07:43
bozoniusPersonally, I do not have every bug that has ever been listed at sourceforge memorized.07:44
bozoniusBut there are probably people who do.07:44
KatolaZbozonius: expert install is what it says :D07:44
bozoniusinstall is finishing up, looking forward to seeing this thing fly07:44
bozoniusIt should be renamed "PhD" and a new level should be added for those who want more flexibility, but not the buggy install experience07:46
bozoniusjust my opinion, KatolaZ07:46
KatolaZwhich bugs are you referring to?07:46
KatolaZplease report them07:46
bozoniusI'm guessing we suffer with whatever comes down from Debian?07:46
bozoniuswell, like selecting desktops, as I said...07:47
KatolaZthat is something I have never seen TBH07:47
KatolaZbut we should check better maybe07:47
bozoniusI've had that problem on VM installs and now on Real HW07:47
KatolaZI remember it allows you to choose as many desktops as you like07:47
KatolaZplease file a bug report07:48
bozoniusyes, until the install tells you it can't do it or something07:48
KatolaZor this will fall into oblivion07:48
bozonius(I forget what it said, but it did not allow it)07:48
KatolaZbozonius: are you using a CDROM?07:48
bozoniusno, thumb drive07:48
KatolaZI mean, is that a CD install image?07:48
KatolaZanswer is easy: you don't have all the desktops in the first CD07:49
KatolaZthat's why it can't install them07:49
bozoniusit is the netinstall image07:49
KatolaZoh wait07:49
KatolaZand then you use a network repo?07:49
bozoniusI use whatever repo(s) the netinstall uses, I guess...07:50
bozoniusjust fyi, came up beautifully, no problems07:50
KatolaZplease file a bug report07:50
bozoniusnow for the fun part...07:50
bozoniusyeah... bug report.  I'll check first to see if someone has already reported it.  I can't believe I am the only one (but then again LOL)07:51
buZzabout what?07:51
buZzwho still uses sourceforge? :O07:51
bozoniusbuZz:  I meant that sarcastically07:52
bozoniusI'm just saying that the install seems to be a minefield of "issues"07:52
buZz> I went with default for the desktop, but I did select command line productivity and it allowed  that.07:53
buZzbozonius: lol , ok07:53
buZzits just the same installer thats been used on debian for .. 10 years?07:53
bozoniusand to do an expert install you really need to be one of those guys with thick coke-bottle glasses, wearing a white shirt with the pen protector, who has memorized every bug ever filed against the system...07:53
gnarfacehey now let's not get hateful07:53
bozoniuswell, it's tired and worn out07:53
buZzmaybe your describing yourself? :)07:53
bozoniusactually, my own glasses ARE getting kinda thick the last few years... and I still can't see everything.07:54
gnarfacethe Debian installer was never known for being user-friendly, even after they revamped it to be more user friendly.  it really used to be much worse.07:54
bozoniusI seem to recall trying to install debian "back in the day"07:55
gnarfacethe devuan installer preserves the expected behavior quite faithfully07:55
gnarfacei suspect that most of the awkwardness hasn't been fixed because it's the type of thing that stops bothering you after the first try07:55
bozoniusand maybe why I never ended up using it.  Ubuntu install was huge improvement07:55
gnarfacei did not succeed with the earlier Debian install, either07:56
gnarfacedon't feel bad07:56
bozoniusbut I am happy now that I have ascii installed on a test box I can really start playing with.07:56
bozoniusI want to try all sorts of awful things07:57
bozoniusthe kind of stuff that will have me visiting you often, probably07:57
gnarfaceonce you have network up and running you should be able to connect to the network repo and test desktop environments with impunity07:57
KatolaZthe problem is that you can't make everybody happy :)07:57
KatolaZor, not in a finite amount of time07:57
bozoniusI know you all can't get enough of my IRC chat07:57
bozoniuswith limited resources too, KatolaZ07:57
bozoniusI think you guys have done a great job, even with some problems07:58
bozoniusyou are Linux SuperHeroes07:58
KatolaZbozonius: the thing is that people should normally use the standard install07:58
KatolaZunless they need the expert install07:58
bozoniusbecause you have saved the world from the evil ONE07:58
bozonius(I needed the expert install for what I wanted to do)07:59
KatolaZand if they need it, well, they are supposed to know how to use it07:59
bozoniusbuZz!!!! How dare you utter that word...07:59
buZzi dare a lot of stuff :P07:59
buZzi think daring to do stuff is what got us here in the first place07:59
KatolaZthere is nothing sacre in any word ;)07:59
bozoniusespecially not THAT one!08:00
KatolaZbut seriously, bozonius please report any bug you find08:01
bozoniusok guys I'll be back later with updates on my adventures in Devuan Ascii...  I have an early morning meeting (PT here) and need to go to bed08:01
bozoniusKatolaZ I will08:01
buZzPT? portugal?08:01
bozoniussorry Pacific Time08:02
buZzthats not a timezone08:02
bozoniusit's 11pm local time here08:02
bozonius"PT" is used frequently for Pacific Time08:02
buZzPST its called , or PDT in summer08:02
bozoniuswhere are you08:02
bozoniusyes, PST or PDT, but that is only if I can remember which it is at that moment...08:03
bozoniusok PDT here08:03
bozoniusGMT-8 I believe08:03
buZzthats my 'UE' timezone on my clock :) , its indeed GMT-808:04
buZz <- my clock08:05
buZzUS east08:05
buZzeh, west, derp08:05
bozoniusUS west08:05
buZzthe first after 'U' is you08:05
bozoniusunbelievable.  A stock ticker...08:06
syco_"U" for universal or for "US" ? :p08:06
buZzsyco_: what do you think ;)08:06
syco_GMT :p08:06
buZzbozonius: nah just the topright number is the BTC price08:06
bozoniusok, night all.  I'll be back later... probably tomorrow evening08:07
buZzsleep tight08:08
Guphey guys, is VLC meant to be available in ascii?  vlc : Depends: vlc-plugin-base (= 3.0.2-0+deb9u1) but it is not going to be installed10:20
Gupnoticed this on my upgrades and clean installs10:22
KatolaZGup: which repos are you using?10:25
KatolaZyou should use deb.devuan.org10:25
Gupi will try with deb.10:26
KatolaZGup: and you should also read the ASCII release notes ;)10:27
Gupyeah thats working now, thanks KatolaZ10:29
GupI'll have browse of those release notes ;)10:29
Gupseems i've used a combination of deb.mirror. and gb.mirror. across my different installs10:35
Gupit must be really easy to select, or even auto detected during install?10:36
Gupshould these options really be removed from the installer if thy are deprecated?10:36
Gupto add to the confusion the upgrade guide linked to from the release notes uses ;)10:40
KatolaZGup: that needs to be amended10:42
KatolaZbut pkgmaster has the same stuff as deb.devuan.org10:42
KatolaZ(it's actually the opposite, but equality is in practice a symmetric relation :P)10:42
filipdevuanhey im quite confused... last year i bought typical win10 laptop with 4gb ram i5 intel 7th gen and optimus card intel hd 500 and nvidia geforce 940mx and i like using devuan but this laptop is very confusing... how am i supposed to use 940mx on linux without drivers...12:23
jaromilis ponchale around sometimes? I'm curious about would love to support but no link to downloads or source is there so perhaps a bit early to ask.13:28
jaromilthanks for noticing golinux13:28
jaromilnone of these links lead to any software, let alone free software I assume is WIP and look forward to be noticed when there is something to try for us to assess astian13:30
FlibberTGibbettheir site does look a little light13:30
jaromilI don't mind considering non-native english speaking, but the software should be there. I think they are transitioning from a previous page13:31
jaromili think this is a start
jaromiland this the CMS mentioned
FlibberTGibbetwas about to check for public repos but there you go. looks like very early stages13:34
jaromilI'd be curious to try an ISO of all of it put together into a distro, until then we can hardly endorse them13:34
jaromilsince people expect to have a distro behind the link13:34
FlibberTGibbetwonder how complete that 'astian os' is? looks like it at least has their DE and app builder included13:35
FlibberTGibbethmm. there's an 'astian os' on sourceforge:
FlibberTGibbetbut that says arch-based where their site says ubuntu13:37
jaromili think they plan to settle on devuan now13:37
FlibberTGibbetthat would be good13:37
FlibberTGibbetcall me old-fashioned but i reckon they'd do better developing their DE or whatever than trying to build a distro just to hold it...13:39
syco_build on kde with sauce desktop ? kaiser-sauce ?13:39
* syco_ ducks13:39
FlibberTGibbetoof :)13:40
jaromili think they have a plan for a webapps based firefoxOS of sorts, so the desktop won't need much more than a login and a browser full screen13:42
jaromilwild guessing13:42
FlibberTGibbetnice if it works, i guess13:45
syco_has been done 20 years ago within Netscape Navigator ..13:56
KatolaZyeah, what can possibly go wrong? (TM) :D13:57
syco_i did some kind of afterstep clone that would only work with netscape .. but it did :p13:59
FlibberTGibbetabout time we had an os that concentrated on gopher apps...13:59
jaromilagree on the gopher apps13:59
jaromilsyco_: being an afterstep fanboy i may have seen your experiments sometimes in the past14:00
FlibberTGibbeti love gopher. rediscovered it recently on and now have my own server for notes at home14:00
KatolaZFlibberTGibbet: I guess by "gopher" you mean the protocol on port 70, right?14:00
jaromilbitreich also14:00
FlibberTGibbetyes KatolaZ14:00
KatolaZI wanted to have a gopher app to browse package info14:00
FlibberTGibbetgopher plus clippy on that bitreich site :D14:01
KatolaZwon't be difficult, indeed14:01
FlibberTGibbetit's possible to write gopher apps quite simply. unless you're me of course -- don't think there's an idiot-proof python library for it :)14:01
jaromilI like what I'm reading :^D14:01
KatolaZFlibberTGibbet: you need just a shell script :)14:01
FlibberTGibbetKatolaZ: more my speed, that14:02
FlibberTGibbetgopher's only problem is a lack of decent javascript frameworks. oh, wait...14:02
KatolaZthat's actually a feature :D14:02
FlibberTGibbetplus it needs css-for-ncurses :)14:03
KatolaZFlibberTGibbet: reading your nick instantly gets be back to Dante14:04
KatolaZevery single time :D14:04
KatolaZ("gibbetto feci a me de le mie case...")14:05
KatolaZI know "gibbet" has gone more towards "public scorn" nowadays14:06
KatolaZbut I really see myself again in highschool every time I real FlibberTGibbet :D14:06
KatolaZstrange machine we have between our ears...14:07
FlibberTGibbetreally? gosh. can think of worse writers to be remind people of than Dante. :)14:08
FlibberTGibbetwould be depressing if i reminded you of Dan Brown's Inferno instead!14:08
KatolaZit's not your fault14:08
KatolaZI think Dan Brown would have actually been worse maybe....14:09
FlibberTGibbeta 'Flibbertegibbet' is a gossip and general speaker of inconsequential nonsense. So it was a very carefully picked nick indeed...14:09
KatolaZyeah I know14:09
KatolaZI wouldn't be surprised if it originally came from French14:10
FlibberTGibbetquite possibly14:10
syco_je le saurais ;p14:10
KatolaZI guess gibet is still used in French with the same meaning as in late latin/vulgar14:11
FlibberTGibbetapparently also associated with legends about Wayland's Smithy, which isn't far from here.14:11
syco_gibet is where you hang people14:11
KatolaZI know syco_14:11
syco_a tree ar a special construct14:11
KatolaZit's gallows14:11
FlibberTGibbetyou get places over here called 'heavitree' which used to be spelled 'heavy tree' after the knotty end of local law enforcement. grim stuff...14:12
KatolaZalways benn fascinated about how languages changes and evolves over time14:13
FlibberTGibbetit's a great subject14:13
syco_especially nowadays14:13
FlibberTGibbetlanguages are changing all the time but also many smaller ones are vanishing :(14:14
FlibberTGibbetbye for now KatolaZ14:14
KatolaZI am happy to know that there are other gopher fans around14:14
KatolaZwe should have a Devuan gopherhole maybe14:14
FlibberTGibbetgreat idea!14:14
KatolaZjaromil, parazyd ^^ ;)14:14
parazydKatolaZ: You know I'm biased :p14:16
KatolaZthat's why I am saying that :P14:17
FlibberTGibbeti wonder if it's possible to reverse proxy gopher so that 2 sites can be presented off the same host? if so I'll set up ...14:17
parazydFlibberTGibbet: Some gopher servers might be able to do it.14:18
FlibberTGibbetwould something like nginx be able to handle a non-http/https protocol, d'you think?14:20
FlibberTGibbetah, looks like nginx can handle it14:24
filipdevuanmy dual graphics card wont allow me to use devuan, its so hard to configure optimus drivers ;/14:50
filipdevuanim desperate cuz i paid 600 bucks for laptop with 4gb ram ddr4 which is a joke and geforce 940mx i cant really use :(14:51
jaromilbumblebee not working?14:53
Humpelst1lzchenfilipdevuan: I thpought we agreed that you have only one graphic card?14:59
djphHumpelst1lzchen: optimus is a laptop garbage "hybrid graphics card" technology.15:00
filipdevuanit is very much garbage15:00
filipdevuanits a shame that i didnt know its a garbage when my nan was buying me a laptop...15:00
djphinstead of having a proper discrete card, it uses the intel (AMD) on-cpu-die card unless $conditions15:00
Humpelst1lzchendjph: don't think its garbage15:01
Humpelst1lzchenthe idea is great imho15:01
djphalthough, on newer revisions you can tell it in bios/uefi to actually behave.15:01
Humpelst1lzchendjph: you can entirely blame it on nvidia and X that it still does not work on Linux as it supposed to be15:03
NeonLichtI've upgraded from jessie to ascii on several boxes and I'm very happy with it, exept I have a small problem with uzbl.  When I run it, it works fine, but when I visit certain sites, the fonts in the status bar stop showing, and small rectangles show instead.  Any pointers, please?15:04
djphHumpelst1lzchen: it was garbage on windows too.15:04
djphHumpelst1lzchen: although I luckily have (er, had since that mobo died horribly) a late enough one that a bios patch (IIRC) allowed me to just turn on the nvidia card full-time.15:05
Humpelst1lzchendjph: Afaik all thinkpads can do that15:05
Humpelst1lzchenat least all thinkpads I've seen could do that15:05
djphyeah, I have a Dell.  But cat knocked glass o water on it, fried the mobo.  wasn't sure if it was jsut the mobo, so replaced it with teh 'non-nvidia' one15:06
Humpelst1lzchenTo be honest in 2011 I spent quite a lot getting bumblebee to work...without ever actually using it15:14
xrogaananybody else using consolekit and slim has issue when trying to directly login after boot?15:39
xrogaanLogin as soon as the prompt shows up.15:39
xrogaanI need a dedicated email to subscribe to FOSS mailing list15:47
NewGnuGuyKatolaZ: Gopher is the best! :-)15:54
filipdevuanyeah i went to my bios i wanted to disable intel completely but no luck. maybe it works but doesnt work like i could expect. It worked on linux mint though cuz it had downloaded drivers while updating OS. linux mint is great for that. xrogaan was helping me with these cards last week but i reinstalled my OS again and now it doesnt detect nvidia at all with lspci xD again. Its a joke... Can't really use my nvidia17:43
filipdevuanon devuan like i wish i could cuz it requires too much stuff to configure properly17:43
filipdevuani may just reinstall my OS again and try to configure my drivers properly, i have bumblebee atm but i still havev issues... Perhaps i could somehow configure just intel gpu diablo 2 and tes oblivion worked on them17:43
KatolaZfilipdevuan: if your main use of a linux box is to play Windows games, maybe what you need is a Windows box? :)17:45
KatolaZdon't get me wrong17:45
KatolaZI am happy you are fiddling with Devuan17:45
KatolaZbut if it drives you mad, just remove the madness17:45
filipdevuanyeah i do, but not happy with too many processes going on win10 and old games dont work on windows 10 at all and its not even possible to fix the issue17:46
KatolaZforget what I said then :)17:46
filipdevuanwell the thing is this laptop has this nvidia geforce and i wish i could use it xD17:46
filipdevuanand this is not a proper laptop for linux stuff... :S. I did basically buy windows 10 laptop and this is the cause17:46
filipdevuanand not windows games, i wanna play native linux games ;P.17:47
KatolaZfilipdevuan: you gotta be careful with hardware17:48
filipdevuanyeah i know it now ;P17:48
KatolaZmanufacturers normally don't give a toss about Linux17:48
KatolaZ(or at least most of them)17:48
NewGnuGuyfilipdevuan: Tried ReactOS?17:53
filipdevuannot really ;P17:56
filipdevuanoh god my battery died hahah17:58
filipdevuani will try it cuz i feel like trying new oses, id just install mint but i dont trust it, it had too many processes. im satisfied with devuan tho but i feel like im a bit too inexperienced with linux at the moment to use it like i want ;P17:59
NewGnuGuyIf you try ReactOS, you'll want to install it from a CD rather than a USB disk. The USB stack is not finished yet.18:01
filipdevuanook cheers ;P18:02
NeonLichtI've upgraded from jessie to ascii on several boxes and I'm very happy with it, exept I have a small problem with uzbl.  When I run it, it works fine, but when I visit certain sites, the fonts in the status bar stop showing, and small rectangles show instead.  Any pointers, please?18:17
KatolaZNeonLicht: have you tried t see if the bug is known in Debian (stretch)?18:23
NeonLichtI haven't, KatolaZ.18:24
KatolaZNeonLicht: you don't need to have stretch...18:33
KatolaZjust have a look at bugs.debian.org18:33
NeonLichtThanks, KatolaZ.  There doesn't seem to be anything about uzbl.18:40
Unkn-ErrorWhich image should I download for the Pi3 ? (SIMPLE Pi3, not the PLUS + version)19:03
Unkn-Error1. devuan_ascii_2.0.0_arm64_raspi3.img.xz 153M19:03
Unkn-Error2. devuan_ascii_2.0.0_arm64_raspi3.tar.gz 221M19:03
filipdevuani think im gonna go on linux mint for a bit and see how easy it is to set wine up and drivers and the performance, i was satisfied with it, but im too inexperienced with linux, but ill be back :)19:04
muep_Unkn-Error: my guess would be that both have the exact same image once you uncompress19:29
Unkn-Errormuep_, I downloaded img.xz and WOW19:32
telst4rQ: DeVUAn jessie LXC template? :)19:32
Unkn-Errorfrom 152 MB, after uncompressing is now about 2GB !!!19:32
telst4rthat's called compressed air.19:32
muep_Unkn-Error: that's why it is provided in compressed form19:33
Unkn-Error1.84 GB exactly, that is like WOW19:33
muep_disk images are often like that19:33
Unkn-ErrorI just can't belive it, that it was compressed so mutch19:33
muep_they describe the exact layout of bytes on disk and not just the content of files, so there are large sections of just zero or suchlike in there19:33
abcabc__it means it's quite low entropy.19:34
Unkn-Erroroh, so it is kina lika a "sector-by-sector" backup which is compressed19:34
muep_it is byte-by-byte19:34
Unkn-Errorbut the "zero" part is left19:34
Unkn-Errorleft out19:34
Unkn-ErrorI see19:34
KatolaZUnkn-Error: the majority of compression algorithms out there work on blocks19:38
KatolaZof hundreds/thousands bytes19:38
KatolaZthey find repeating blocks19:38
KatolaZand replace the repetitons with a reference19:38
KatolaZif you have a block of 3000 zeros, it can reduce to something like "repeat '0' 3000 times'19:39
KatolaZwhich is 20 bytes19:39
KatolaZUnkn-Error: please try it at home :)19:39
muep_I'd expect block-based to describe something based on fixed-size blocks, analogous to e.g. block ciphers19:40
KatolaZno muep_19:40
KatolaZI mean that the orizion of patterns is a block of a certain size19:40
muep_also my impression is that at least gzip is pretty flexible about being able to compress very short streams19:41
KatolaZmuep_: it varies a lot across algorithms19:42
abcabc__huffman dictionaries are fun19:42
muep_the DEFLATE algorithm used in gzip seems to be very popular among various compression formats, though of course there are also other algorithms in use19:43
Unkn-Errordevuan booted in my Pi319:43
Unkn-Errorno GUI like xfce/gnome/kde/lxde and so on19:43
Unkn-Errorssh enabled by default as root, but it is fine19:43
muep_I have not studied the full DEFLATE algorithm, but at least a basic huffman coding can work well with an arbitrary number of bytes19:43
KatolaZyes muep_19:44
Unkn-ErrorDevuan arm, have all Debian arm packages?19:45
KatolaZthe problem is that the longest the stream, the much longer it takes to DEFLATE19:45
muep_well yes, sure to keep performance reasonable, algorithms tend to limit how long bits they look at19:45
KatolaZbut that's configurable in all the algorithms available in the market19:46
KatolaZit's the -# parameter19:46
KatolaZwhere # is normally a number between 1 and 919:46
KatolaZ(probably stating the obvious here, sorry)19:46
KatolaZ(will silence myself :D)19:47
Unkn-Errorwhy is better openrc over systemD?19:48
muep_it is much smaller at least19:48
Unkn-Errorif I will use syncthing, with openRC it will start automatically?19:49
Unkn-ErrorThis -- >> https://syncthing.net19:50
Unkn-ErrorOMG GUYS !!!19:51
Unkn-ErrorI can not belived again19:51
telst4rWhy not ?19:51
Unkn-Errorroot@devuan:~# free -m19:51
Unkn-Errorgives me19:51
Unkn-Errorused 3219:52
Unkn-Errorthat is ONLY 32 MB of ram memory19:52
telst4rYou don't have firefox+bitcoinqt+clamav going I presume19:52
KatolaZwhat's your problem Unkn-Error19:52
KatolaZit's a whole lot of ram19:53
Unkn-ErrorI am just amazed19:53
telst4r"devuan is using too little memory"?19:53
KatolaZif you rebuild your kernel you can probably strip it down to about 15/20 MB19:53
Unkn-Errorevery distro I have booted up in the RasPi they where using about 350-580 MB of ram19:53
KatolaZminimal live uses about 14MB RAM19:53
KatolaZUnkn-Error: maybe they had a DE installed....19:54
Unkn-Errorreally? onlu 14?19:54
Unkn-Erroryes they had19:54
telst4rUnkn-Error, every other distros are bloatware.19:54
Unkn-ErrorI will try to install DE here too19:54
muep_my print server rpi has only 228 MB available19:54
muep_I mean in total19:54
Unkn-Errormuep_, do you use Z ram compression or tricks like that?19:54
Unkn-Errorfor making a Compressed Swap in ram memory?19:55
muep_Unkn-Error: nothing special. IME there is not that much RAM pressure unless you run RAM-intensive stuff in there19:55
muep_like the desktop env that raspbian has in their full images19:55
Unkn-ErrorI will need a DE for my Pi19:56
telst4rmy NAS has only 64MB, of which 59+70MB is being used. Boo-hoo.19:56
muep_then it will certainly take more than 32 MB19:56
KatolaZit depends19:56
muep_on that print server rpi, the used-cached amount of RAM is at 26 MB19:56
KatolaZit depends on the DE, I mean19:57
KatolaZyou can have a pretty minimal system with just X and a window manager19:57
KatolaZand still keep everything below 64MB19:57
telst4rWhy go DE, use just a simple WM.19:57
muep_and that 26 MB is after wasting two megs for avahi-daemon and another two for d-bus daemon and so on19:58
telst4rwhat's the purpose of avahi in the first place...19:58
KatolaZlike eating ram19:58
muep_for other computers to find the printer automatically19:58
Unkn-Errorand when I thing that my phone has 3 gb of ram, maybe 419:59
muep_the most RAM-intensive thing on that rpi is cupsd and it is taking a bit over 6 MiB19:59
Unkn-Error3.64 GB on my phone19:59
muep_so it can splurge a few megs of the 228 MB on mere conveniences20:00
telst4ryou can unsolder some of that excessive ram for other purposes.20:00
muep_one interesting bit in that ps output is that ps itself was occuping more of the RAM than e.g. d-bus20:01
Unkn-Errorfrom a security point of view20:02
Unkn-Errorshould devuan be more secure when compared with raspaberian?20:02
muep_I would expect it to be mostly similar20:02
KatolaZUnkn-Error: no distribution is more or less secure20:02
Unkn-Erroror thay are the same?20:03
muep_since over 99% of the software is the same20:03
KatolaZif you have the same admin, you will have the same level of security20:03
KatolaZmostly irrespective of the distro20:03
muep_pretty much all of the included software that you would expose over public internet is the same code20:03
muep_though hm, I guess raspbian has their own kernel while devuan has basically the debian kernel?20:04
telst4rI guess he's trying to ask whether some distro have safer defaults, like "PermitRootLogin Yes" or sudo glitches20:04
KatolaZtelst4r: no default can save all asses :D20:05
telst4rso far I have found wirecutters to be the best security suite. But they come with caveats.20:05
Unkn-Errorfunny / the wirecutters joke20:16
Unkn-Erroryes, I was thinking at the default settings mixed with some kind of expoits + brute force attacks20:16
Unkn-Errorwhen I put something on the internet with port 22 open... I have like20:17
Unkn-Error32 tries in 1 minutes for guessing username / passwd20:17
telst4rI see. I haven't stumbled upon a comprehensive study on that.20:18
Unkn-Errorthat is on 1 ISP20:18
Unkn-Erroron the other ISP i have, there are no such attaks20:18
Unkn-Errormaybe one is using some kind of IDS/IDP for internet filtering and the other one dosen't20:18
telst4rUnkn-Error, try fail2ban, changing the port and other limits20:18
Unkn-Erroryep, I will need to learn / read the fail2ban documentation20:19
Unkn-ErrorIt is so sad the fact that World of Tanks game is not working under linux20:20
telst4rUnkn-Error, also a good idea would be only white-listing certain ip ranges that you know you yourself might remotely log-in from. Like school, work or a mobile broadband.20:21
Unkn-Errorips, always change here. however I wil change the port number for ssh / nomachte20:22
Unkn-ErrorI have a small laptop, a thinkpad which is currently running win 8.120:23
Unkn-ErrorI am thinking to make it dual-boot with linux, but with this ocasion I will reinstall the windows and upgrade to win 1020:24
telst4rUnkn-Error, they do. but at least you could block some never-visit-countries out. Like I would block the US, since I have no business with them.20:24
Unkn-Errorin the same time... I am thinking of using UEFI, instead of CSM/bios legacy20:24
Unkn-Errorthe problem with UEFI is the EFI partition when..20:25
Unkn-ErrorI do back-up the system20:25
Unkn-Erroras there is also info written in the NVRAM at the operating system install time20:25
Unkn-Errorhow the heck, can a dual boot sys windows+linux running under UEFI+GPT be backed up in a image?20:26
muep_note that it will be somewhat confusing to boot unless both windows and GNU/Linux use the same boot mechanism. so either boot both through EFI or both through CSM mode20:26
Unkn-ErrorCloneZilla is working fine, but for clonezilla I always need to keep a bootable usb stick handy and a external hdd20:26
Unkn-Errorwith the CSM+MBR the backup is fine, but there is no "secureboot"20:27
Unkn-Errorthe problems will gonna start when I will disable csm and the hdd will be GPT20:27
Unkn-Errorfrom a backup and restore point of view20:28
muep_with CSM+MBR you still are not backing up your firmware settings20:28
fsmithredUnkn-Error, you'll need a special partition to use gpt with legacy boot20:28
muep_it is not much different with EFI20:28
fsmithred>1MB unformatted, with bios_grub flag20:28
Unkn-ErrorI will disable legacy boot.20:28
Unkn-ErrorUEFI+GPT only.20:28
Unkn-Errorbut how do I back up after the os is installed?20:29
fsmithreddoesn't the nvram stuff get mounted?20:29
muep_the kernel exposes efi variables as a virtual filesystem20:29
Unkn-ErrorI do not know if or how to check the nvram stuff20:29
muep_but it is not an actual filesystem20:29
muep_it is just settings of the firmware20:29
fsmithredprobably with efibootmgr20:29
muep_but I do not get why it is now important to back those up while ignoring that also traditional BIOS has firmware settings which are usually not backed up anywhere20:30
fsmithredyeah, I don't think you need to mess with it. If you clone the whole drive, you should be able to dd it to another drive and have it work20:30
Unkn-ErrorI guess I will buy a second hand small HDD and make some test20:31
Unkn-ErrorI usually back up my stuff20:31
Unkn-Errorfew years back, I did a "dd" on my main hardisk20:32
Unkn-Errorand lost some of my music20:32
Unkn-Errorsince then, I always do backups20:32
Unkn-Errorok. xfce and slim is installed in Pi20:34
Unkn-Errorbut slim is not starting auto-magically20:34
Unkn-Errordo you guys know how can slim be started automatically on devuan after reboot?20:35
filipdevuansomebody said here fedora doesnt run tracker apps, well i launched it via live dvd try it and it has 4 different tracker aps...20:49
xrogaanwhat do you call tracker apps?20:49
filipdevuansorry tracker processes... trackerminer tracker-apps and two others of which i cant remember the name i lost my mint somewhere20:50
muep_there is a tool in gnome called tracker which also tracks things, but is not a thing usually referred to as "tracker apps"20:50
muep_AFAIK it is not expected to send the results of tracking anywhere20:51
filipdevuanim a bit confused with my laptop and OS's i feel like i wanna buy some decent but cheap PC for devuan, my laptop should have something else... but the thing i really wanna install different os and uninstall devuan but somewhat reason i can't cuz devuan is great...20:51
xrogaanfilipdevuan: there are two kinds of "tracker". You have one that index your filesystem to provide you, the user, with a database of every document on your hard drive.20:51
xrogaangives you a way to easily search for content20:52
xrogaanthat's the "tracker" you are referring to.20:52
filipdevuanxrogaan i don't remember what i've done with your help that all these games did launch on devuan ;///20:52
xrogaanthe other kind is an ADS software that keep track of whatever you do or install and report it to a third party.20:52
filipdevuani feel like reinstalling devuan and doing partitions right and then try configue everything from scratch again like i did thanks to you20:52
xrogaanwhat you have by default on fedora is most probably
filipdevuanwell yeah20:53
xrogaanfilipdevuan: if you reinstalled, make sur you have the firmware package installed: aptitude search firmware20:53
filipdevuani remember that i launched diablo 2 and oblivion before i installed bumblebee linux-firmware20:53
filipdevuanand before terminal was detecting nvidia gpu20:54
xrogaanyou want the base meta packages: firmware-linux20:54
filipdevuanbut after i downloaded more stuff i was able to run diablo 3 and newer games but older games didnt wanna run so i gave up20:54
filipdevuanokay ;)20:54
filipdevuanbtw is there any nice cloud service available on net where i can store stuff like pictures??? would you recommend anything??20:54
xrogaangoogle drive?20:55
filipdevuandoes it have to be google are them all the same anyways wondering if theres any kind of open source free software blablabla cloud service20:55
xrogaanFOSS services are the one you run yourself20:56
xrogaanlike owncloud20:56
filipdevuani must move my ass to poundland and buy more DVD's to put devuan on it so i can use my pendrive xD20:56
filipdevuanokay thanx20:57
filipdevuani may just try dropbox20:57
xrogaanyou could try but it's french.20:58
muep_e.g. google drive can be used with free software while my impression is that with dropbox both the service and the client are proprietary20:59
xrogaanother cloud providers
filipdevuanokay i registered to zaclys21:06
filipdevuanbtw i really like default devuan desktop environment its cool but id love to use something "more beautiful" i really like gnome but it doesnt run here. iv noticed with different DE's i don't get same stuff that i get on default devuan one, which is for example set brightness, iv noticed default one works the best but maybe there's something else i could use???21:09
filipdevuancan u confirm that all these desktop environments i can use during devuan installation work 100% properly??21:11
fsmithredthe ones in the installer will work21:14
fsmithredIf you want lxde, you can install it afterward, and you might have to experiment with which polkit packages you want21:15
filipdevuanok thx ;)21:15
filipdevuanwhat exactly is polkit packages??21:16
fsmithredlibraries that policykit uses21:16
filipdevuanok cool21:16
fsmithredstuff that makes it so the user can reboot or shutdown from the DE menu21:16
fsmithredmount removable drives21:16
fsmithredif you install one if the DE from the installer iso, it will work. If you install a DE by installing its component pieces, you may need to figure out what's missing.21:18
fsmithredand if you install two different DE, there could possibly be package conflicts21:18
filipdevuanokay cool, cheers. ;). i might try something different then. but i used i think KDE and now i think im using cinammon and default one worked best for me21:19
fsmithredkde, cinnamon and lxqt use elogind; xfce and mate use consolekit21:19
fsmithredare all three desktops installed in the same system?21:19
filipdevuanoh sorry i think i use mate then not cinnamon21:20
filipdevuani installed mate and the default one i think and i can't switch to default one before login ;P its only mate21:20
filipdevuanw8 lemme have a look21:20
filipdevuanyeah i have mate running21:21
fsmithredat slim login screen, press F1 to toggle through the different desktops you can log into21:21
filipdevuanyeah theres only mate ;D21:22
fsmithredwhat happened to xfce?21:22
fsmithredoh wait, when you installed, you check the box for mate and the box for default devuan desktop?21:23
filipdevuanyeah i think so21:23
fsmithredok, that second one gives you the desktop theme and maybe a few other things21:23
fsmithredbut not a full DE21:23
fsmithredI think21:24
Unkn-Errorfilipdevuan, Cloud service sugesstin -->> 15 GB free, it was 50 GB 2 years back.21:24
Unkn-Errorfilipdevuan, Cloud service sugesstin -->> yandex disk - unlimited disk space for Pictures / Photo21:24
Unkn-Erroras far as I remember21:24
filipdevuancheers i registered to zaclys. just i have some pics on my laptop, my phone doesnt connect to my laptop and i wanna reinstall my OS with proper partitions this time like one for OS second one for media21:25
Unkn-Errorfilipdevuan, what Desktop Enviroment have you used with Devuan?21:25
filipdevuani used default one, i also installed KDE but some stuff were not running like set brightness with Fn buttons and couldnt find brightness settings which was pretty frustrating, had same  issue with MATE but i did something in some conf file and now it works21:26
filipdevuanBut i wanna finally install OS with media on seperate partition so i dont lose anything when reinstalling21:26
Unkn-ErrorI assume the default one is XFCE21:26
filipdevuani may be trying different distros in the meantime, but i dont wanna lose my data all the time ;D21:27
Unkn-ErrorI see.21:27
Unkn-ErrorYou could try Virtual Box21:27
filipdevuanyeah past 3 weeks i reinstalled my laptop like 10 times...21:27

Generated by 2.17.0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!