libera/#devuan/ Tuesday, 2018-07-17

mhabetsI'm on Jessie. Tried to install cpp-doc and was surprised to find it's in non-free. Does anybody know the reason for this?02:50
XenguyMust be licensing of course03:00
Xenguymhabets: ^^03:00
mhabetsLooks like it's due to the dependency on gcc-doc, and that is non-free.03:10
NewGnuGuymhabets: Debian considers documentation that contain invariant sections as specified by the GNU Free Documentation License to be non-free.03:26
NewGnuGuymhabets: Devuan, as a Debian downstream, automatically inherits Debian's handling of documentation packages. There has been some discussion recently as to what stance Devuan will take on the issue of the GNU FDL's invariant sections, but those discussions are still ongoing.03:31
XenguyChoosing a suitable license is certainly a crucial step04:57
XenguyMeaning you want to take the best step04:58
furrymcgeea different license would be a signal to distinguish07:49
DeFender1031Hey all. It's been a while since I checked in. What's the status of ASCII? Is it considered stable yet? Is there a sane upgrade path from jessie that won't invole doing anything more than updating my sources.list? Will it work if I'm also including some additional repos which are geared toward debian rather than devuan (specifically virtualbox, deb-multimedia, trinity, and pale moon)?08:02
gnarfaceascii is stable now08:03
gnarfaceno comment on the rest08:03
NewGnuGuyDeFender1031: See the release announcement linked in the channel topic08:04
DeFender1031NewGnuGuy, I looked at it before I started typing. The "Latest" being Ascii Vs. "Stable" being Jessie in the channel topic confused me.08:06
DeFender1031Or rather, made it not clear to me.08:06
NewGnuGuyDeFender1031: yes, it could be worded better. ASCII is stable. Jessie is oldstable.08:07
DeFender1031Okay, so I see the upgrade instructions. No mention of whether the "stretch" versions of the additional repos I mentioned will work with ASCII though.08:08
gnarfacesafest bet is "no"08:09
gnarfacebut if you know what you're doing you can probably make it work08:09
gnarfacei said i wasn't gonna comment but i changed my mind i'm gonna comment08:09
gnarface - debian would tell you these repos don't mix, too08:10
NewGnuGuyI know of no reason why they shouldn't work, but am not responsible for anything bad happening. Try at your own risk.08:10
gnarface - deb-multimedia was forced to change their name from debian-multimedia because of their persistent will to break everything08:10
gnarface - virtualbox, which i've never used, is up there with pulseaudio and mpv as causing an abnormally large amount of problems in the guise of being "easier"08:10
gnarface - pale moon didn't pass muster for debian either08:11
gnarface - never heard of trinity08:11
NewGnuGuyTrinity is the fork of KDE 3, right?08:11
DeFender1031the question is really whether any of these things are tightly bound to systemd... as i understand it, only stuff that's systemd-specific will break under devuan08:11
DeFender1031yes, trinity is kde308:12
DeFender1031pale moon I can live without. the rest I very much rely on.08:12
gnarfacebanned package list here08:13
DeFender1031would that list the third-party packages though?08:13
gnarfacenope, but it might list stuff from debian they depend on08:13
DeFender1031interesting point08:14
gnarfaceif none of your 3rd party packages depend on any of the packages in the ban list, then likely you can make the upgrade work, though you may still manually have to correct some package dependency snarls08:14
gnarfaceif you depend on something in here though and don't know how to rebuild the package without it yourself, you're probably gonna have to look for alternatives08:15
DeFender1031though there's no guarantee that these repos will work even if there's nothing on there that these repos depend on is there? Some package could still have been modified in such a way that they wont play nice, no?08:15
gnarfaceno guarantees in this universe, period.  some would say death is guaranteed but i don't even feel that lucky.  there's no guarantee those repos wouldn't cause trouble with debian either, for whatever that's worth.08:15
DeFender1031sure, but that's not what I mean.08:16
gnarfaceif you have room to make a backup, you should do that before trying it08:16
DeFender1031I mean, is it conceivable that something would work with debian's version of a package but not with devuan's?08:16
gnarfaceconceivable but unlikely, for the case of packages not dependent specifically on systemd or something related to it.08:17
gnarfacemost the packages aren't even different08:17
gnarfacemost of them are the same exact package as debian's08:17
DeFender1031yeah, I'm not sure I'll be able to effectively back up everything that needs backing up... my install is spread over several drives and partitions.08:17
gnarfacewell make sure you back up /etc08:17
DeFender1031it wouldn't be so bad if apt had an easy way to undo changes.08:17
DeFender1031I mean, backing up my system drive should be no problem... I'm pretty sure all system stuff is on the same partition. I'm also worried about my user configs though... but I might just back those up separately... not sure.08:19
gnarfaceuser configs should all be in ~/.*08:19
gnarfacethere are exceptions, but usually only for really atrociously badly behaved commercial software packages08:19
gnarfacethe debian release notes have a list of directories advised to be backed up08:20
gnarfacehere, from the jessie release notes from debian:08:20
gnarfaceThe main things you'll want to back up are the contents of /etc, /var/lib/dpkg, /var/lib/apt/extended_states and the output of dpkg --get-selections "*" (the quotes are important). If you use aptitude to manage packages on your system, you will also want to back up /var/lib/aptitude/pkgstates.08:20
gnarface(i would personally also add /home and /usr/local to that)08:21
DeFender1031/home is a problem, it has a partition jump in its directory tree...08:22
gnarfaceyou can tell tar "--one-file-system" and it won't jump partitions08:22
gnarfacethe primary cause of 3rd party repo conflicts just comes down to version dependencies08:23
gnarfaceif they put a version of something in there with a higher number than what is in ascii currently, it would block the upgrade for that pacakge08:23
gnarfacethe fix would be to just force removal/replacement of that pacakge, but the error messages may be a little confusing, especially in the case of a chain of dependencies that all have to be replaced in this fashion08:24
DeFender1031so you're saying it's unlikely that a package of the proper version but with systemd-averting modifications would cause issues with a third-party repo that depends on it?08:24
DeFender1031yeah, I've encountered dependency chains that were like that and were very much not fun to try to fix.08:24
gnarfaceyea, that's what i'm saying, but its based on anecdotal evidence08:25
DeFender1031well let's see... the list of banned packages for ascii isn't too long.08:26
gnarfaceanother similar cause of such snags would be "forgetting you used backports for something once"08:26
DeFender1031I wonder if there's an easy way to get a list of packages that these repos depend on and cross-refrence...08:27
DeFender1031what do you mean "forgetting you used backports for something once"?08:27
gnarfacewell backport versions are higher too08:27
DeFender1031aptitude usually tends to do a decent job of sorting out backport-sourced version conflicts though08:28
gnarfacei'll take your word for that08:28
gnarfacei never touch it, myself08:28
NewGnuGuyDeFender1031: `aptitude why pkgname` and `aptitude why-not pkgname` are great for determining the dependency chain of an installed package and what would keep a new package from being installed, respectively08:28
gnarfaceah that's a good tip08:29
DeFender1031I usually use apt, but occasionally when there's something like that, aptitude is sometimes smarter about resolutions... example, I once had a conflict where apt was like "resolve by uninstalling these 513 packages" and aptitude's first proposal was that, but then the second one was "downgrade this one package"08:29
gnarfacewell maybe it will work to resolve any conflicts with the 3rd party repos just as well08:30
gnarfaceyou might want to remove their repos from your sources.list during the upgrade though08:30
DeFender1031NewGnuGuy, useful, but I'd have to already upgrade to do that... though I suppose I could theoretically install ascii in a virtual machine, add the repos I want there, and then why-not all of the packages I'm using... but that can be a pain and if I forget one, there could be hell to pay.08:31
DeFender1031btw, I want to say again how awesome I think this channel is for being super chill and patient and not making me feel like an idiot or like just because I don't know how to do these things that I'm just wasting people's time. I get that far too often in help channels and it's refreshing that this one isn't like that.08:34
DeFender1031hmm... is there a way to get a list of installed packages limited to a specific repo they came from? E.G. if I want a list of every package I have installed that's from deb-multimedia, is there a simple way to do it?08:35
gnarfacethere should be, but i'm drawing a blank off the top of my head08:37
NewGnuGuyDeFender1031: I can do that trivially in synaptic; I don't know off the top of my head how to do that from the commandline.08:37
gnarfacethere is usually a distinct version08:38
DeFender1031I have synaptic installed... I don't care how I get the list.08:38
DeFender1031NewGnuGuy, how I do dat?08:38
NewGnuGuyDeFender1031: Origin button in the lower left08:39
DeFender1031NewGnuGuy, dang, that's simple08:39
DeFender1031Well, I think I still have to go through and look at only those that are installed (I think that's what this green checkbox thing is?) but still, this works08:41
DeFender1031Or I could NOT be an idiot and actually sort it by that field...08:43
NewGnuGuythat would help lol08:43
gnarfacei'm looking at and it appears all their packages contain the version suffix "-dmo#" where "#" is a single-digit number08:44
DeFender1031hmm... why don't I see the virtualbox repo on here at all?08:44
KatolaZDeFender1031: you can also use dpkg --get-selections08:44
KatolaZand then dpkg --set-selections08:44
DeFender1031or pale moon08:44
KatolaZ(if it's just a matter of getting a list of packages replicated on another box)08:45
DeFender1031I know I have both08:45
DeFender1031KatolaZ, nah, this is about whether it's safe to upgrade to ascii and whether a bunch of third-party repos with debian targets will work with ascii if I use their stretch versions08:46
NewGnuGuyDeFender1031: Are they commented out accidently in you sources.list?08:46
DeFender1031NewGnuGuy, nope. and I know I have them installed, I use them all the time.08:46
DeFender1031(Well, I use VB all the time. Dunno when the last time I opened pale moon was)08:46
gnarfaceDeFender1031: check in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/08:51
DeFender1031what am I looking for?08:52
gnarfaceany files at all08:52
gnarfacefiles containing the repo urls you thought were in /etc/apt/sources.list08:52
gnarfacegoogle and opera's stuff used to put them in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ anyway08:53
DeFender1031I have two there a devuan.list which is all commented out lines and a google-chrome.list which has the chrome repo08:53
gnarfacei wonder where else they could have gone08:53
DeFender1031oh, I didn't make myself clear08:53
DeFender1031the lines are in my sources.list08:53
DeFender1031but they're not showing up in the origin tab in synaptic.08:53
gnarfaceoh, yea, i thought you were saying they weren't in the sources.list08:54
DeFender1031yeah, I realized I was ambiguous08:54
DeFender1031I also realized that the chrome one is kinda-sorta a third party repo too technically, though given its popularity I can't imagine it wouldn't work with devuan08:55
KatolaZDeFender1031: apt-cache policy08:55
KatolaZwill show you all your active repos08:55
KatolaZif that helps08:55
NewGnuGuyDeFender1031: maybe the origin tab only shows repos from which you have installed packages. What repos are listed?08:55
KatolaZapt-cache policy08:56
DeFender1031KatolaZ, nah, trying to get a list of all packages manually installed from specific repos so that I can backtrack their dependencies in stretch and make sure none of them are on ascii's banned package list.08:57
DeFender1031NewGnuGuy, like I said, I know for a fact I have VB installed, but the VB repo isn't showing up in that tab.08:57
KatolaZDeFender1031: and what's your plan to achieve that?08:58
DeFender1031what do you mean? I was planning to check each package's dependency chain and cross-reference it with the banned list08:58
KatolaZyou want to do that on jessie?08:59
KatolaZto be sure whether you can upgrade to ascii?08:59
gnarfaceKatolaZ: yes, he said he has virtualbox, deb-multimedia, trinity, and pale moonvirtualbox, deb-multimedia, trinity, and pale moon, and chrome repos09:00
gnarfaceKatolaZ: i told him it might work but he should make a backup first09:00
gnarfacehe specifically wanted to avoid having to work out package dependency conflicts manually during the upgrade09:01
gnarfacefrom my recollection i couldn't guarantee that was possible09:02
DeFender1031KatolaZ, well, my plan was to figure out which third-party packages I actually use currently on jessie, and check their dependency lists in stretch for the cross refrence to ascii, to make sure that an upgrade to stretch/ascii would be viable09:02
gnarfacebut i also know there's a wide variation on how much trouble the conflicts could be: anywhere from trivial to nightmarish09:02
DeFender1031KatolaZ, another option for me would be installing ascii in a VM and then seeing if installing the third-party packages works there. but for either option, I'd still need the list of packages I'm currently using to make sure I don't forget any.09:03
gnarfaceDeFender1031: you might even be able to pull off that test in a chroot install09:07
gnarfacefor most the packages in question, anyway, it will behave the same09:07
DeFender1031hmm... perhaps.09:08
NewGnuGuyDeFender1031: FWIW, `apt list --installed | grep --invert-match ,automatic] | grep --invert-match Listing | sed s%/.*$%%` will return a list of all manually installed packages09:08
DeFender1031I don't even really have to run the programs, just make sure they can install. still, a VM might be safer. I've never done a chroot install before09:09
Jjp137oops wrong window09:09
DeFender1031map indeed.09:09
DeFender1031NewGnuGuy, I suppose installing everything I have installed manually (including those from official repos) would test just as well...09:11
DeFender1031okay, so I guess I'll attempt it in vm with these repos and see what happens.09:13
NewGnuGuyLet us know the results09:13
DeFender1031(and all I really wanted to do right now is see if I can get OBS Studio working... aw well... down the rabbit hole we go.)09:14
gnarfacegood luck, man09:14
NewGnuGuynothing like a good yak-shaving09:15
DeFender1031welp... after downloading the netinstall and doing the whole installation process... ASCII freezes on startup in VM.10:06
gnarfacebefore or after grub?10:07
DeFender1031After login...10:07
gnarfacewhich WM?10:08
DeFender1031oh wait10:08
gnarfacejust slow?10:08
DeFender1031not sure?10:08
gnarfacexfce is the default10:08
DeFender1031Are you using WM and DE interchangably?10:08
DeFender1031maybe just slow...10:09
DeFender1031or maybe not enough ram?10:09
gnarfaceyes, interchangeably10:09
DeFender1031so then yeah, KDE10:09
gnarfaceit could be a ram issue, i don't know10:09
DeFender1031I just gave it more ram, let's see if that helps10:09
gnarfaceif you don't have swap, make sure /proc/sys/vm/swappiness is 010:10
gnarfacedefaults to 6010:10
DeFender1031It set up some swap... I basically did default install for everything because I don't actually care about those settings for this test.10:11
DeFender1031Nope. more ram didn't help. I get the gear-k logo and a spinning trail below it that spins around 3 or 4 times and then stops.10:11
gnarfacemaybe it is missing some vbox driver package?10:12
DeFender1031that doesn't make much sense... I've run linux in vbox before.10:12
DeFender1031with kde10:12
gnarfacewell ubuntu would have included the package by default10:13
DeFender1031what package?10:13
gnarfacenot sure, probably virtualbox-guest-additions-iso10:14
gnarfaceor one of the ones named virtualbox-guest*10:14
gnarfacethey're in non-free10:15
DeFender1031those are usually things that make it integrate better... I've never encountered having it not work at all without it10:15
gnarfacemy hypothesis consists of blaming the video drivers in the guest of crashing under kde's default-on compositing10:15
gnarfacemaybe the guest additions can fix it10:16
gnarfaceyou could try disabling compositing first too10:16
gnarfaceits just a hypothesis10:16
DeFender1031default-on compositing... huh.10:16
DeFender1031okay... remind me how to get to a command line inside a vm without logging into the de?10:16
gnarfaceif you installed a graphical login manager10:17
gnarfaceyou might be able to sidestep it with ctrl+alt+F210:17
DeFender1031that just sends my host system to its own console10:17
DeFender1031I don't remember how to do that for the guest10:17
gnarfacethere's some trick to it10:18
gnarfacemaybe virtualbox specific10:18
gnarfaceyou could try adding the left option/windows key in though10:18
gnarfacethat works for wine10:18
gnarface(or something like that)10:18
DeFender1031that also sent my host system to console... hmm...10:19
gnarfacesorry, you'll have to check the virtualbox docs.  there's probably a different hotkey to bind the modifier keys to the guest window10:19
gnarfaceno sshd running on the guest?10:21
gnarfacemaybe the whole thing didn't lock up10:21
gnarfaceit could just be X10:21
DeFender1031okay, so it's just "host+f2"10:24
DeFender1031and yeah, the whole thing locks up. can't switch back to the f2 terminal after the freeze10:24
gnarfacecan you access the filesystem and see the logs?10:25
gnarfaceby mounting the guest image or something?10:25
DeFender1031probably. what logs should I be looking at?10:26
DeFender1031nah, I can get there from the f2 console10:26
gnarfaceyou mean can't?10:26
gnarfaceoh can10:26
gnarfacei don't know vbox10:27
gnarfaceanyway, look in /var/log10:27
gnarfacesyslog, kern.log, Xorg.0.log, daemon.log10:27
gnarfacebasically all the top-level log files, see what the last things written to them were10:28
gnarfaceXorg.0.log may be in ~/.local/share/xorg10:28
DeFender1031nothing in any of those logs looks off.10:31
DeFender1031and I'm shaving even more yaks for some reason...10:32
DeFender1031I think I'm giving up for tonight. this was one yak too many10:35
gnarfacesorry, can't say what's going on10:36
gnarfacei'd try it with qemu-kvm10:36
DeFender1031if it IS a problem with kde's default-on compositing, then there's a chicken-and-egg problem.10:36
gnarfaceyou can't disable it by editing a file, then just restart the guest?10:36
DeFender1031I could if I had any inkling what file i'd need to edit and in what way to edit it.10:37
gnarfacefor that matter, could you install the guest addition package then restart it?10:37
gnarfaceyou know, just to see if that makes the problem magically go away10:37
DeFender1031I suppose I could, but adding the repo to the sources list will be annoying without the gui because I can't copy and paste.10:38
DeFender1031fine... one more yak.10:38
DeFender1031nope, chicken and egg, guest additions needs display to install.10:52
DeFender1031so maybe if I install xfce, it will work and I can install guest additions from there? hmm...11:02
errandirOr boot with initlevel 1 (edit the command line in grub), disable the graphical stuff, and then try to boot into text mode.11:05
DeFender1031nope, xfce freezes too... :(11:05
FlibberTGibbeti installed the debian version of letsencrypt as downloaded from letsencrypt's site. i can see the results of scheduled renewal attempts in /var/log/letsencrypt/* but i'm not sure how, given the entry in /etc/cron.d/certbot:11:31
FlibberTGibbet0 */12 * * * root test -x /usr/bin/certbot -a \! -d /run/systemd/system && perl -e 'sleep int(rand(3600))' && certbot -q renew11:31
FlibberTGibbetthere *is* a /run/systemd directory (courtesy of libsystemd0??) but nothing inside called 'system'11:32
FlibberTGibbetso i'm wondering how the 'certbot -q renew' is ever reached...11:32
gnarface       ! EXPRESSION11:34
gnarface              EXPRESSION is false11:34
FlibberTGibbetso it should just skip that part, yes?11:34
gnarfaceno, its actually making sure that directory does not exist11:35
gnarfacethere is a man page for `test`11:35
gnarfaceit will show you all the dirty details on a very compact few pages11:35
gnarfacehaving had a primer in boolean logic helps a lot to make sense of it though11:36
FlibberTGibbetwhich i shall now read -- thanks for the hint. wasn't aware that \! was invoking test until now :)11:36
gnarfaceit's just sort of assumed that you know the formal definitions of "and", "or", and "not"11:36
FlibberTGibbetyup, can even mangle a karnaugh map :)11:36
FlibberTGibbetwould be useful to read those pages so i'll put that on today's reading list...11:37
gnarfaceno problem11:37
KatolaZhave you tried the test on you shell?11:43
FlibberTGibbetgood idea. back in a minute11:44
KatolaZthe condition looks for /usr/bin/certbot being executable AND /run/systemd/system NOT being a directory11:44
KatolaZjust try: test -x /usr/bin/certbot -a \! -d /run/systemd/system && echo true11:45
FlibberTGibbetyup, just did tested both parts and in combination and it worked. was using echo $? on the following line but && echo true is much nicer. thanks.11:46
KatolaZthat package should be amended I guess11:46
KatolaZand maybe pushed upstream11:46
FlibberTGibbetjust checked apt-cache policy certbot and it did come from the repos rather than a download from so yes, perhaps might be useful to tweak that in the package11:51
FlibberTGibbetthere was another package whose docs mentioned that an example sysv script was only provided as a legacy thing, whereas all sane people would be using systemd, or something along those lines. i'll see if i can find what that was -- didn't sit very well with the devuan box on which it was running!11:54
inerkickHi.. Need a bit info13:16
inerkickWhich ISO to be downloaded? I got i3 machine with 2GB RAM, 64bit machine. And I wanted to instal devuan in it, already have 2 distro , Windows and linuxmint.13:17
KatolaZinerkick: if you have a good internet connection, you can go for the NETINST image13:17
inerkicki don't have good internet13:17
KatolaZI reckon my statement depends on the definition of "good internet connection" though13:18
KatolaZthen get the DVD13:18
inerkickI meant like I can't keep downloading and installing . I can try one way as download once13:18
inerkickI was initialy thought of downloading the devuan ascii CD1 installer ISO13:19
inerkickWill that be good enough?13:19
inerkickI heard a long time ago someone said that don't use download live since it can't be used for installation, So I thought to try NETINST but my internet is kind of not so good all the time and I wonder if it's kind of tricky considering I already have data in the drive, so needed something which installs basic features to get up and running and than help me install additional package13:23
djphso just grab the full dvd-sized iso (rather than the netinst), and work from there13:29
Woodi'something which installs basic features to get up and running and than helps install additional packages' is netinst definition, IMO :)  and with proper distributions like debian-likes almoust everything is inet-updated constantly :)14:11
jonadabHmm.  Installed k3b using apt, but on running, it says "Unable to find cdrecord executable K3b uses cdrecord to actually write CDs. Solution: Install the cdrtools package which contains cdrecord."16:06
jonadabBut there doesn't appear to be a cdrtools package, and apt-cache search cdrecord only comes up with rhythmbox-plugin-cdrecorder, which seems likely to be unrelated.16:06
gnarfaceit has been renamed to wodim16:09
gnarfacea really long time ago, actually16:09
jonadabHmm.  wodim is already the newest version.16:10
jonadabI guess I need to create a symlink.16:10
jonadabHeh.  Then it has a similar complaint about growisofs16:11
jonadabWhich however IS installed.16:12
jonadabAh, hmm, seems to be working now.  Very odd behavior, though.16:17
james1138General question. I read that Debian 9.5 is out. Since Devuan ASCII is based on Debian 9... how difficult would be a minor upgrade?16:50
KatolaZjames1138: what for?16:50
KatolaZyou just apt-get update && apt-get upgrade16:51
james1138Just thought about keeping stretch/stable up to date Katolaz.16:53
KatolaZjames1138: apt-get && apt-get upgrade :)16:53
KatolaZjames1138: we currently have about 30 among install, live, and arm images17:02
KatolaZmost of the users will select security upgrades anyway during install17:02
KatolaZand will download them17:03
KatolaZwhich equals "apt-get update && apt-get upgrade"17:03
KatolaZand the actual number of upgraded packages since ASCII images went out is not huge17:03
KatolaZabout 22 in total17:04
golinuxDeFender1031: Palemoon has an issue with their licensing17:18
golinuxwhich is questionable.  Actually I think it's with the copyright for the name17:19
golinuxBut it's a perfectly fine browser.17:25
ivanshmakovgolinux: That’s debatable. See, for example.18:24
tradarthat article talks about every one but the most important fork of firefox18:28
tradarGNU icecat18:28
ivanshmakovFWIW, I can’t entirely agree with the article. For one thing, I don’t see how using a less secure browser that works is any worse than using a more secure one that doesn’t. And for me, Firefox > 52 doesn’t work, alas.18:45
tradaractually all that talking about a stronger security from mozilla is delusional. I like that logic only because i find it funny, amusing. At first they somehow admit their browser is bugged like s##t then they basically announce that "all ff forks are bugged." OK no wonder why. They claim their browser is the safest browser and the only one to trust since it is the first one to get bug fixes. Just not19:06
tradaraccounting for the several months 0day exploits were in the wild and affected firefox like any other of its forks.19:06
golinuxI stumbled on the first sentence that quantum is "more modern".  That's NEVER a good thing IMO.19:13
tradari follow your same way of thinking golinux marketing babbling raises always a red flag19:19
ivanshmakovtradar: Mozilla Corp. still has more employees to fix the bugs than any fork maintainers can hope for. At the same time, diverging from the Mozilla code base opens forks to fork-specific bugs, knowledge of which may never transpire to the public.19:43
ivanshmakovBut the problem, as I see it, is not that fork maintainers don’t have necessary workforce for such a complex project, but that the project got way too complex to be any good.19:43
tradarnot to mention the fact that those bugs were likely pushed into firefox right from the /more employees/ at mozilla19:45
_stephen_do most use browsers from the repos or do you download/compile from elsewhere?19:56
ivanshmakovtradar: “Programming is a strange game: the only way not to make bugs is not to play.”20:07
tradaryes ok, it's a real war game :)20:07
fsmithredI have to agree with that statement20:07
tradarbut basically a programmer begins to fail when he forgets about the KISS mentality. a good way 'to make' bugs is to create bloatwares. A good way not to generate extra bugs is not to add extra code, frivolous features. Here is where Mozilla failed.20:13
_stephen_Is there an estimate of how many people make use of popcorn and an estimate of the number of devuan installs?20:14
fsmithred_stephen_, I don't know what percentage use popcon. My guess is it's small. Default setting is "no"20:15
_stephen_I was just wondering how useful the numbers were.20:15
fsmithredover 2600 installs that are participating in popcon20:16
fsmithredwild guess that it's 10%20:16
_stephen_hm, my brain wont let me type popcon it keeps coming out popcorn.20:17
fsmithredthe numbers might be useful for looking at relative use of different browsers20:17
_stephen_heh, looks like 1277 participate...20:19
fsmithredwhere'd you see that?20:20
_stephen_the line for popcorn20:23
_stephen_the line for popcon20:23
_stephen_from the link you provided20:23
fsmithred1277 votes means the program ran 1277 times. The first column shows number of installs.20:27
_stephen_err, isn't that the second column, labeled inst?20:28
fsmithredwell, if you want to be that way, we're really talking about the third and fourth columns.20:28
fsmithredanyway, there's no way to tell what those numbers mean20:29
fsmithredsome might be duplicates (I installed, wiped it and installed again, twice in the same day)20:30
fsmithredor 100 installs all at the same office20:30
fsmithredpopcon can tell multiple votes from the same machine - there's a popcon id number20:31
_stephen_I'd argue that 100 installs all at the same office is valid, if it's 100 different machines, it would still matter.20:31
_stephen_But I hadn't considered immediate install, run, uninstall, reinstall, run...20:31
fsmithredhowever, there may be some duplicates out there, due to an oversight in earlier desktop-live isos20:32
_stephen_packages providing libraries that dont have explicit binaries can never get votes..?20:37
_stephen_I should say explicitly executable binaries...  err programs.20:38
fsmithrednot sure. If you have an example, see if it's on the list.20:40
_stephen_Anything with a zero in the vote column, but a high number of installs, I guess.20:40
fsmithredyeah. good observation.20:41
_stephen_Would multiple programs under a given package result in a higher number of votes than installs?20:41
fsmithredlibreoffice has the different programs listed separately, but it looks like nobody ever used any of them20:45
_stephen_How is voting accomplished?20:45
_stephen_oh, found the readme, reading...20:46
_stephen_I generally set up my mounts with noatime and nodiratime...20:50
_stephen_Anyone else getting sick of google asking if they meant Debian?20:51
fsmithredI don't seem to get that anymore.20:52
fsmithredusing startpage here20:52
_stephen_I do a search and its full of debian results, so then I put in quotes, and then it asks me if I meant "debian"20:52
_stephen_devuan popcon -> Did you mean: debian popcorn?20:53
_stephen_if you click that the first hit is the debian popcon results...20:53
fsmithredyou're right. I see it there, but it was invisible before (I've learned to ignore it.)20:54
_stephen_I guess I just have to put -debian in all my devuan related searches.20:55
golinuxEventually that question could be reversed.  (Positive thinking).20:55
fsmithredmight take a long time, but I don't rule out the possibility20:55
golinux_stephen_: I do that all the time for -debian and -ubuntu etc.20:56
golinuxYou can also do +devuan20:56
_stephen_+devuan still gives me "did you mean...."20:57
_stephen_huh, i386 usage still seems high...20:58
fsmithredyou looking at the graphs?20:59
fsmithredit's about 1/10 of amd64, which is what I see on refracta iso downloads20:59
fsmithredover a long period of observation20:59
_stephen_I wonder if that experienced a boost when others announced dropping it20:59
fsmithredthunder started. I might shut down in a hurry soon.21:04
fsmithredback later...21:19

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