libera/#devuan/ Friday, 2019-01-11

_abc_Hi. I assume this is old news, but the comments are worth reading and bookmarking :)
golinux_abc_: Haven't seen that take on it yet,  Comments there are always entertaining.01:34
kitsunenokenjapuzzled by something. using only ascii/beowulf from, and all pkg for php7 are 7.0, 7.1, 7.3 -- where is 7.2?01:51
golinuxkitsunenokenja: Dom't know but you can always check fo availability02:07
kitsunenokenjasearched for "php7." in "any", only 7.0 & 7.3 appear. Feels like I should either look for a repo providing it or just compile it and drop it into /usr/local02:10
golinuxDo not mix other repos with devuan.02:11
kitsunenokenjaI was more inclined to compile it than roll the dice with pure debian .deb's02:11
golinuxGood idea to compile02:17
XenguyWhenever I compile, which is not often anymore, I use 'checkinstall' on the final step, which builds a DEB (or an RPM or w/e)02:45
XenguyYou build the DEB, then install it with dpkg -i02:45
golinuxXenguy: Good advice.03:04
XenguyIt worked great for me back in the day, and just kept things a bit 'tidier'03:30
XenguyI also remember it was convenient to uninstall the package too, as you could just do:  dpkg -r packagename03:32
golinuxXenguy: Yup04:06
xrogaanIs there drama on the kernel news list surrounding the systemd problem?08:40
guybootloaders absolutely will not install during netinst, UEFI mode or not. anybody know anything about that?13:59
KatolaZguy: never reported13:59
KatolaZwhat are you doing exactly?13:59
KatolaZand which medium have you used?14:00
KatolaZ(I suppose you are speaking of Devuan Ascii)14:00
guynetinst on a bootable flash drive, trying to install on software RAID114:00
KatolaZguy: you should save a partition out of raid for /boot14:01
KatolaZjust in case14:01
KatolaZwhich error do you get?14:01
guygrub-install dummy failed14:01
KatolaZguy: please have a look at the logfile14:02
KatolaZit should say something more14:02
guyalright ill check it out, thanks14:02
KatolaZif it fails, just use the expert install option14:02
KatolaZit will allow you to choose the device to install grub to14:02
KatolaZ(or to type in your choice)14:03
abcdabcdHi. I have a problem. Fujitsu laptop does not suspend when lid is closed. This used to work. devuan is ascii. I updated some stuff and it's no longer happening. All the settings in xfce4 powermanager are ok. Suspending manually from the logout screen works fine. Return from suspend is also okay. There's a maybe-related systemd problem, it requires manually editing a setting in logind.conf called HandleLid15:23
abcdabcdSwitch which is to be set to =ignore for systemd. The file does not exist on devuan but this may be a hint as to what the mongoloids broke again?15:23
abcdabcdI'll wait patiently for an answer now. Thanks.15:23
djphabcdabcd: systemd in devuan?15:30
furrymcgeeno systemd in devuan because its a security disaster15:31
abcdabcddude do you people read what I write or just pick out whatever word you fancy out of the mess?15:37
djphabcdabcd: yeah, I did.  You're the one who mentioned it's a systemd problem with logind ... I'd have thought it an ACPI error myself.15:47
jyriabcdabcd: their attention level probably depends of the level of cafeine in blood/time at their time zone :) anyway, there was longish chain on the devuan dng mailing list about the issue, I just can't remember what was the solution (reason probably the level of cafeine)15:49
abcdabcdThe problem is I can't leave the laptop with no suspend, it runs the battery down when the lid is closed15:54
abcdabcdThe lid event is detected, I am tempted to code a simple crap thing which polls the relevant proc file and issues a suspend to same15:55
r3bootYou might be able to configure a pm-utils script which runs on lid close15:56
r3bootMeh. Cant find any good docs wrt pm-utils under debian/devuan; Almost all docs I've come across assume systemd (where suspend/resume/lidclose just works using the options you've described)16:01
r3bootabcdabcd: man 8 pm-utils is your best bet igi16:04
jyri@devuan ~ ]$ man 8 pm-utils16:07
jyriNo manual entry for pm-utils in section 816:07
r3bootapt-get install pm-utils16:07
r3bootcmon :)16:08
KatolaZjyri: man pm-suspend16:08
KatolaZyou normally have manpages for commands, not for packages16:08
jyrir3boot: pm-utils gets automagically installed as dependency since such stuff as acpi-support depends on it, I was just trying to be funny etc. Just ignore me, it's Friday and I have to get out of the office :P16:14
chomwitthi. i see with ldd that php-fpm has systemd depedencies. doest that mean that will not run in devuan ?16:18
KatolaZabcdabcd: you might have a look at /etc/acpi/events/lidbtn16:18
KatolaZchomwitt: I think they have removed the dep in Debian Stretch16:19
KatolaZchomwitt: the package is in ascii, actually16:19
chomwittin debian9 php-fpm depends on  libsystemd016:20
KatolaZchomwitt: it depends on libsystemd0, yes16:20
KatolaZso you can actually install it in Devuan16:20
KatolaZlibsystemd0 is available, although not used, since you have no systemd16:21
rrqabcdabcd: I remember something with the xhci_* modules not being able to suspend...16:27
rrqI have /etc/pm/config.d/sleep-unload.conf with 'SUSPEND_MODULES="xhci_pci xhci_hcd"'16:28
rrqand afair it made a difference16:28
_abc_I was here before as abcdabcd -- any ideas on what would kill lid switch suspend on a fujitsu laptop?18:05
_abc_It worked and then ceased working probably during an update (aptitude). The settings in the manager are all okay, tested multiple times.18:05
_abc_fsmithred has not been in here in a while? Or does he come in at odd hours (for me -- i'm in EU Eastern TZ)18:14
golinuxHe hasn't had home Internet for months.18:15
_abc_wow? Why?18:15
_abc_Money problems or technical?18:15
golinuxDoor 118:15
_abc_I am not familiar with that. What does it mean.18:16
golinuxYou mentioned two "doors"18:16
_abc_Oh, the left one?18:17
golinuxHe and I work a lot by phone.18:17
_abc_I see.18:17
golinuxWe do read L to R in the West.18:17
furrymcgeeEU eastern not china yet?18:18
_abc_So nothing was done to subsidize that a bit? He contributed a lot to devuan. He deserves that?18:18
_abc_EU Eastern is somewhat allergic to non-whites off-whites etc.18:21
golinuxAll this is OT18:22
_abc_Yes. What about the lid switch going South?18:22
golinuxI think there's something about that on the forum or dng18:22
golinuxToo lazy to go search for you.18:23
_abc_Was there anyhting in a recent update which killed something important in the way powerd/acpid work? It has to be in the gui side, under Power Manager18:23
golinuxDo go search those places18:24
_abc_I searched, and found some systemd related things which seem to imply that the mongoloids again changed something in the source of the ui's to accomodate their mongolid spawn, as usual with no respect for other users18:24
_abc_Meaning, there are specific problems on ubuntu and debian which are fixed by telling systemd-powerd or such to ignore the lid switch using a setting in logind.conf18:24
_abc_So since the new problem appeared when I updated various things (long list) on that system, I assume a newer, contaminated version of a library came in which made the functionality disappear.18:25
gnarfaceit's entirely possible it only affected a small subset of the hardware in the wild and you just got unlucky18:26
gnarfacemake sure you have the pm-utils package installed18:26
_abc_Another: I have xfce Battery Monitor open properly here but on that system it does not open at all and the icon is wrong.18:26
gnarfacepm-utils should come with some scripts, and i think one of them should be for handling the lid switch18:27
_abc_I think I should reinstall the xfce modules. Can that be done? Or must one reinstall the whole.18:27
_abc_Since the disk had to be fsckd manually twice it's possible some pieces went missing.18:27
gnarfaceyou can reinstall ANY package18:27
_abc_Is there an audit utility to check what parts of installed packages do not exist / are wrong size etc?18:27
gnarfacesurprisingly, no18:28
_abc_Time to write one, then.18:28
_abc_Are the snapper tools any use for this?18:28
gnarfaceit would be a relatively easy task to write one if you could trust that the binary packages were always representative of the source packages they supposedly belong to, but a long time ago Debian made the decision not to enforce that18:28
gnarfacei'm not familiar with snapper tools18:29
gnarfacei think i would check the pm-utils scripts first, and look for one that's not firing that should18:30
gnarfacemaybe it'll even be easy to fix18:30
gnarfaceoh, there is some package called "cruft" that's for identifying unpackaged crud though18:32
gnarfacemight be useful18:32
flrn_abc_: if the event gets recognized and you can manually suspend the device, all you need to check resp. edit should be under /etc/acpi/, self-explaining.18:36
_abc_flrn: It works by hand and works by gui from the logout->suspend button for example18:37
_abc_I think I need to reinstall fvwm and variour apmd/pm related packages18:37
flrn_abc_: I think you just need a file for the event under /etc/acpi/events to trigger the according action (script) under /etc/acpi.18:39
_abc_The file event works, I wrote a 5 liner bash script to do the hibernate on lid close anyway.18:41
rwp_abc_, (gnarface) Are you familiar with the 'debsums' package?  It is a useful integrity checker.19:32
gnarfacerwp: it won't cover the issue of verifying if the binary matches the source though, nor will it account for anything preinst/postinst scripts add or change19:38
gnarfaceliterally all it does as far as i was aware anyway, was provide an automated way of checking for package corruption19:39
gnarfacewhich is useful, but also is supposed to be done automatically for every package at installation time already19:40
rwpI agree with everything you are saying.19:41
rwpHowever sometimes "corruption" occurs later.  It is useful to catch changes that have happened later.19:41
rwpBoth from humans who poke their fingers into places they shouldn't.  (make PREFIX=/usr install)19:41
gnarfaceyea, that's true.  you're right, it's worth mentioning in context of this discussion.  i highly doubt that's the issue we're facing here though.19:41
rwpAnd from hardware that is starting to get flaky.  I have a system that is producing what appear to be bit flips in files.  But the disk is okay.  Probably something in the caching chain.19:42
rwpTopic drift...  So this HP business class deskside system has exactly twice detected so far produced a file with a single bit flipped!19:43
gnarfacehmm.  well that's disturbing19:44
rwpAt first I thought it was the disk.  But how could a disk controller send out a disk block with a bit flipped?  The "CRCs" should catch it, right?  (I think it will.)19:44
gnarfacecould be environmental19:44
rwpDropping all of the caches with "echo 3 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches" did not change anything.  I thought that would flush the cache and force a new read from disk.  But the result was the same.19:44
rwpHowever rebooting the system does fix the bit flips.19:45
rwpSo now I am thinking some on controller cache in the disk subsystem is getting soft.19:45
gnarfaceit could be, but i'm also envisioning a scenario where there's a weak bit of shielding on the sata/ide cable, in an evironment with super heavy RF interference19:46
rwpI noticed it because AIDE flagged the file.  But no changes to {a,m,c}time of the file or the directory holding it.19:46
rwpdebsums verified it had changed.19:46
gnarfacehmm. disturbing for sure.19:47
gnarfacei'd even be considering the memory suspect i think19:47
rwpThis is just a typical HP business class deskside, I would need to look at the number, but nothing extraordinary about it.19:47
rwpHowever it is getting up in the years.  Been running for a long time.19:47
rwpInitially quite disturbing but now that I think I understand the problem I think it just sad that the system is getting old and dementia is setting in.  Such a sad malady.19:48
_abc_rwp: don't know debsums, worth a look19:55
rwpI only suggested it because you asked about "... parts of installed packages do not exist / are wrong size etc?" and that seemed in the topic area.19:56
rwpI like having a workbench with a variety of tools available to choose from. :-)19:57
gnarfacei try never to give up on them20:01
gnarfaceon the hardware20:01
gnarfacei don't accept "dementia" as a diagnosis20:01
gnarfacei've seen some really weird and intermittent failures though20:02
_abc_shuttond down a system by pulling power repeatedly leads exactly to dementia20:02
gnarfacesome stuff that's hard to trace because it's based on a combination of a BIOS bug and insufficient power etc20:02
_abc_This is based on a careless person and a battery-less laptop. PBKC.20:03
* rwp laughs as I was simply joking that the systems seem similar to the forgetfulness of dementia.20:04
rwpI think I meant s/systems/symptoms/ there.  I have a touch of the problem myself! :-)20:05
_abc_d in systemd is dementia20:10
MaxFunhi hi! Is it possible to install Firefox 64 in Devuan? Kinda holding me back21:38
gnarfaceit is possible21:39
MaxFunthanks :D21:39
MaxFunwhat about kernel 4.20?21:41
MaxFunor even better. using my own config21:42
gnarfacethe procedure isn't different from debian, just make sure to get the packages from devuan servers21:43
MaxFunI see. Thanks!21:43
MaxFun:D :D :D21:43
gnarfaceno problem21:44
blebwho's responsible for the website?  more specifically, that FUCKING scrolling banner21:58
plasma41bleb: What banner?22:00
aggrorajust zoom out your window :)22:03
blebaggrora: thats not a solution22:06
plasma41bleb: Interesting. I've never experienced that as I've never run the javascript responsible for that effect.22:07
blebyeah, would be great if you didn't need umatrix to get a nonshitty site22:07
aggroraHow would you suggest to fix it then? I meen, It seems to be responsive when you zoom alot, then just the icons apear.22:08
plasma41ping golinux22:09
redrick'golinux, white courtesy telephone, please.'22:11
plasma41golinux: Maybe we should remove the javascript that is responsible for sticky-ing behavior applied to the menu banner that bleb pointed out above.22:14
plasma41It looks like the last two lines in are responsible for that behaviour.22:15
plasma41Looks like it's a small script hellekian wrote.22:17
redrick$(window).scroll(function() { n("#sticky-bar", e, "sticky"), n("#read article > h1", t, "sticky-2")22:17
plasma41I happen to agree that that banner should scroll out of view and not monopolize screen space.22:19
gnarfacei really feel sorry for anyone who still needs the window to be that small22:19
golinuxThere is no javascript on the devuan website.22:22
golinuxOr I thought their wasn't.22:23
golinuxI cut that stuff with ublock origin or ad block22:24
greyeaxhey there, i have a quick question - will packages intended for debian work with devuan?22:24
greyeaxfor example, Bitwig Studio is distributed as a .deb intended for Debian22:24
plasma41I had thought so too, but LibreJS blocked it for me.22:24
golinuxThey are already in Devuan if they are not tied to systemd22:25
golinuxBe cautious about third party repos22:25
gnarfacegreyeax: it works but it can break your dependency tree, sabotaging later upgrades22:25
greyeaxi see22:25
greyeaxis there any way to like, check?22:25
golinuxDo not use debian repos directly.22:25
greyeaxgolinux: it's a proprietary software22:25
gnarfaceit's probably safe if the package depends on nothing and changes nothing outside it's own files22:25
greyeaxit's a one off .deb distributed by website22:26
golinuxDoes no one new here read the website before asking questions?22:26
golinux  below the mirror lists22:27
greyeaxgolinux: i'm referring to a single proprietary package distributed as a .deb binary my dude22:27
greyeaxnot an entire repo22:27
golinuxIt's one f'ing para22:27
golinuxDevuan package repositories are exclusive. Other repositories, including Debian, Ubuntu, Mint etc, should NOT be used directly.22:27
golinuxAnd a short one at that22:28
greyeaxgolinux: you know, your condescending attitude does not mesh with your inability to read22:28
greyeaxi am not adding22:28
greyeaxa repo22:28
golinuxNow some logic what populates a repo?  Packages!22:29
plasma41golinux: greyeax is not talking about a package in debian22:29
golinuxPackages from any 3rd party source could create a frankendevuan22:30
golinuxI know what vhe22:30
greyeaxyes but a repo could pull in multiple non-standard packages. a single package with an unsatisfiable dependancy would simply fail22:30
greyeaxthere is a significant difference here22:30
golinux'oops (s)he's talking about.22:30
greyeaxi am also referring to, once again22:30
gnarfacegreyeax: the important part is that breakages have been known to occur.  it all depends on what assumptions the package makes.  you might get away with it.  it will probably work initially.  the damage is not often initially apparent.22:30
plasma41greyeax: run 'dpkg-deb --info packagename.deb'. If the package does not depend on systemd and works in Debian, it should work in Devuan.22:31
greyeaxplasma41: thanks22:31
plasma41greyeax: Your computer, your rules; however, you would do well to heed ^that^ link from golinux22:33
poeinklumHello Devuaners22:45
plasma41poeinklum: hello22:46
poeinklumI'm using ASCII, and I'm having trouble changing the default player for AVI files from Dragon to Gnome MPV22:46
poeinklum(with Cinnamon)22:46
poeinklumI don't get any error message, but the default doesn't change.22:47
gnarfaceyou installed gnome-mpv?22:47
poeinklumI _am_ able to change default apps for opening some other file types.22:47
poeinklumgnarface: Yes, and it opens AVI files fine22:47
gnarfaceit might have to to with alternatives22:47
gnarfacei forget how to search it22:48
poeinklum$ readlink -f /usr/bin/gnome-mpv22:48
plasma41poeinklum: If you're using Xfce, you should be able change that by running xfce4-mime-settings.22:49
se7enjust use lain mpv, lol22:49
gnarfacepoeinklum: no, i mean that cinnamon might be calling some alternative instead of gnome-mpv22:49
gnarfacepoeinklum: instead of Dragon, rather22:50
se7enxfce is also bloat22:50
plasma41D'oh. I missed where you said you were running Cinnamon.22:50
bleb16:24 < golinux> I cut that stuff with ublock origin or ad block22:50
blebso everyone blocks this crap on the devuan website22:51
poeinklumse7en: Then I'm sure you can convince people here to stop packaging those terrible pieces of software you don't like.22:51
blebgolinux: are you someone who has access to the server and can remove it?22:51
poeinklumgnarface: Why would that prevent me from changing the default player to something that's _not_ Dragon?22:51
gnarfacepoeinklum: well only if it was calling something like x-video-player instead22:52
golinuxbleb: Yes.22:52
gnarfacepoeinklum: i'm not even sure of an appropriate example in this case, but if you're sure it is actually calling dragon directly, than nevermind22:52
gnarfacepoeinklum: you're aware of /etc/alternatives, right?22:53
poeinklumgnarface: Yes, of course22:53
blebgolinux: so you'll can it? :)22:53
poeinklumBut neither /usr/bin/gnome-mpv nor nor /usr/bin/dragon are links22:53
poeinklumgnarface: and there's no alternative with "player" or "video" in its name22:54
gnarfacepoeinklum: might just be a bug.   i don't know, sorry.22:54
blebgolinux: cool... no rush22:54
poeinklumgnarface: Question is, is it a Devuan bug, Debian bug, or upstream package bug? Or a comibination of those? Or rather - where should I file it?22:54
gnarfaceit's part of cinnamon?22:55
golinuxIt should degrade more gracefully.22:55
golinuxpoeinklum: Look for outstanding bugs first so you know the right place to submit it.22:56
poeinklumgolinux: Ok, but _where_? ... :-)22:56
golinuxbleb: Problem is that with zoom, layouts can go pear-shaped rather easily22:57
golinuxSearch debian bugs and lists and forums22:57
golinuxAlso search pkginfo.devuan.org22:58
blebgolinux: i see that it's going pear shaped on a 1024px wide screen, but that is orthogonal to the scrolling22:59
golinuxThere are two issues: Pear shaped and sticky bar23:00
golinuxThe markdown is a rat's nest.  I need to be 100% and no distractions before jumping in23:01
blebfor the former the site could just be redesigned so that the donate and download buttons don't need to but right aligned23:02
golinuxMaybe of the weekend.23:02
blebi mean the debian website looks 100% fine and better than the devuan site in every way23:02
Jjp137from what I can tell looking at the CSS (I'm no expert), it becomes icons-only if the width of the window is 640px or less23:02
Jjp137until then, the "Community", "Free Software", etc. text stays23:02
Jjp137the selector is "@media only screen and (max-width: 640px) #sticky-bar .u-pull-left a>span"23:03
Jjp137hopefully that helps a bit23:03
Jjp137dunno what best practices are in this case23:03
blebso complex23:03
blebjust design the top bar so that it doesn't look weird for text to become 2 lines23:04
blebif you zoom in on the debian website the top bar becomes 2 lines and i looks fine23:04
golinuxI don't think I have had a window small enough to see icons only.23:04
golinuxI inherited the rat's nest.23:04
Jjp137you'd probably have to zoom in to something like 200% or more23:05
redrickbleb:  Maybe if you repeat a bunch more times how much better a different distro's Web site works, healing powers will emerge and fix Devuan's.23:05
golinuxMostly have kept to changing colors and text.  The css is scary!23:05
blebredrick: maybe, but its more likely that it will serve as an example to whoever updates the website23:07
golinuxthe nav bar on behaves much better23:07
golinuxYeah that's what many users think.23:08
golinuxIt's always someone else who gets to fix whatever.omeone else23:08
redrickbleb:  I like your theory that being obnoxious motivates others.  You don't have controlling patent right, I hope?23:09
golinuxoops.  Ignore that last bit.23:09
golinuxNot redrick's.  My typo23:09
blebredrick: you must have meant to direct that at someone who said that being obnoxious motivates others?23:10
* golinux . . . popcorn time23:11
redrickbleb:  Self-knowledge is such a difficult thing, nei?  ;->23:11
blebredrick: you mean to imply that i think being obnoxious motivates others?23:12
blebor are you saying that its obnoxious to point out materials that could be useful in solving a problem?23:12
blebspell it out23:13
redrickUnfortunately, just grabbing random snippets from site A that is deemed to 'look good' and jam that into site B is not a plan.23:13
blebredrick: yeah it would take a bit more planning i agree23:13
redrickI think, then, that it'd be excellent for you to demonstrate how by submitting a patch, which I expect golinux would await eagerly.23:14
redrickThereby showing how 'useful in solving a problem' works in this context.23:15
golinuxAs long as the layout of the nav bar stays the same.  The problem is how it degrades.23:17
blebredrick: yeah that would demonstrate it23:18
blebi don't assume everything i write will be excellent though23:18
plasma41[Progressive enhancement]( > [Graceful degredation](
golinuxEvery site I have coded from scratch expands and squishes perfectly.  ;)23:24
golinuxLike refracta.org23:26
poeinklumgolinux: But won't people tell me to piss off since I'm using Devuan rather than Debian? I've gotten that on #debian right here on Freenode...23:48
MaxFunI guess I have to dl the latest Firejail version before installing Devuan. The one in the Mint repo is old23:52
golinuxpoeinklum: Just search silently.23:59

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