libera/#devuan/ Saturday, 2019-02-02

djphi always thought kde was awful ...00:03
MinceRi thought kde was nice until 4.0 came out, and was a total disaster00:04
MinceRand then they claimed they finally fixed everything in 4.300:04
MinceRand it was still a total disaster00:04
MinceRand then they announced 5.x will depend on cancerd00:05
DocScrutinizer05KDE5 depends on yet another new wicked flavor of Qt and drops all KDE4 (and 3) support00:24
DocScrutinizer05so I#vebeen told00:25
MinceRwicked, superbloated and unlikely to compile flavor00:25
MinceRand has half a window manager built in for wayland's CSD idiotism00:25
DocScrutinizer05I gonna switch to UNIX or some crapple products00:26
DocScrutinizer05getting too old for all that idiocy00:27
MinceRi'm pondering BSD00:30
MinceRbut i'm so far behind with maintaining and establishing my IT infrastructure, i have no idea when i will actually get around to it00:30
DocScrutinizer05linux was OK as long as it was an OS made by experts for experts. With this push to mediocre everybody's desktop literally nothing in linux stays untainted from same mediocre mindset and incompetence also entering developer community00:30
djphjust had a whole buncha people whining linux needs to be more like windows in order to give windows refugees an easier time.  ugh, the heresy of that thought process ...00:54
DocScrutinizer05I don't know, refugees prolly shouldn't expect to find an asylum that is exactly like the stuff they fled - otherwise, why did they flee to begin with?00:59
DocScrutinizer05"if iot was so bad *you* couldn't stand it anymore, what the heck do you think to come here and bring that stuff *you* fled from with you to introduce it here where we had a fine living so far???"01:00
DocScrutinizer05alas it seems in a system consisting ofg "A ... Z" one flees A, the other C, yet another R or U, and every refugeee wants to find and use all minus $reason-to-escape in their new home. Resulting in new home after a while looking exactly like od bad place, if you're luccky with an option now ro opt out of a few of those things. Alas those opt-outs also getting more and more unpopular and even get blamed for "confusing customers" so they01:08
DocScrutinizer05have to get eliminated even when they were in place at beginning01:08
DocScrutinizer05anyway I minced a new word now: refugee-devels, obviously those who took over KDE4 development01:11
djphwe get it, you'fe fleeing microsoft.  good, but don't make _us_ change to accommodate your shortcomings.  maybe you'd prefer an etch-a-sketch?01:14
golinuxdjph: Or paint by the numbers01:28
djphgolinux:  my other paint by number used "2" for blue, why isnt this one the same?????01:30
rwpDocScrutinizer05, Truer words were never spoken.01:32
golinuxMaybe this should go to #debianfork?01:38
ejrdo i actually need the deb-src lines in my sources.list when i use ceres?10:11
pardisOnly if you want to query/fetch/build source packages10:24
gnarfaceyes, but some unexpected things need to do that (like the nvidia drivers)10:28
gnarfacei guess they might not need it but they do need kernel headers at least10:29
gnarfacesomething else i'm forgetting, too10:30
gnarfacebut that's right for the most part you don't need them, but it's best to have them in case you forget10:35
ejralright,  thanks10:38
gnarfaceno problem10:42
Humgnarface: may copy your details about deb-src to ?10:53
Humpardis: I would like to copy your line: Only if you want to query/fetch/build source packages10:56
Humwithout only10:56
gnarfaceHum: his line is better.  i'm just babbling.  you can copy what i said if you want, but you'd be better off copying what the man page says about it11:01
nowhy does grub-pc get installed when upgrading to ceres? i don't have it on my other devuan system that runs on the same hardware, and i don't even have efi (libreboot instead)12:38
no seems to be related to that, there are other people from other OS' having the same issue (grub-pc suddenly getting installed when dist-upgrading)12:46
msiismis there any collaboration between Devuan and antiX/MX going on?15:42
KatolaZnot currently msiism15:45
msiismok, i just thought that might be a really good idea.15:46
msiismyou see, there is this poll at distrowatch this week about replacing mageia on their "major distributions" list with somehting else. and that is very likely going to be MX linux, i.e., a debian-based system without systemd. that's what got me thinking.15:47
KatolaZmsiism: it is my understanding that MXlinux allows systemd15:53
msiismtheir manual says, it is included, but not activated and that they will not provide any support to people using mx with systemd.15:54
msiismbut then, antiX surely doesn't include it.15:55
furrymcgeecongratulations to all distributions not depending on a single init systems16:01
msiismmaybe, it would be worth inviting developers of antiX (and even MX) to Devuan's upcoming conference and discuss possible fields of cooperation. i imagine that package forks might be one.16:03
furrymcgeewhat fields do you think for example?16:16
msiism> i imagine that package forks might be one.16:17
ejrcould anybody explain how to get either alsa or pulseaudio (i.e. sound) working on a fresh devuan ceres installation? i have tried both, but neither works. pactl shows one sink, whose state is suspended. I already tried restarting pulseaudio with --kill and --start but that didn't help.16:38
msiismejr: well, as far as also goes, have you checked the mixer?16:39
msiismejr: i mean 'alsamixer' and the levels set there.16:40
ejrmsiism: yes, it shows two sound cards and at both the volume is set to highest.16:41
msiismejr: an they are not muted? btw, i'd trun that volume down a bit....16:42
ejri remember once having had similar issues and figuring out something with lsmod | grep snd and then modprobing snd_hda_intel, but i already tried that now without success16:42
ejrmsiism: originally they were if i remember correctly, i am already trying to figure this out for at least half an hour16:42
msiismejr: ok, well, could you paste the output of `cat /proc/asound/cards'?16:43
ejr(btw pastebinit seems to choose by default even in devuan, oh no ;))16:46
msiismnever mind16:48
msiismejr: so, what exactly is "ThinkPad EC - ThinkPad Console Audio Control"?16:49
stephen__how many years has it been?  And I still can't spell nouveau.16:51
ejrmsiism: i have no idea tbh. i am running devuan headless on a libreboot thinkpad x60.16:52
msiismejr: what does headless mean?16:53
ejrno xserver, only tty+tmux16:53
msiismlol, "headless"...16:53
msiismejr: and alsamixer, you say, lists two sound cards?16:54
stephen__I thought headless meant no monitor, ssh only...16:54
OmegaPhilyep, no monitor=headless16:54
* msiism thought headless meant: without reason16:55
ejrHDA Intel and ThinkPad Console Audio Control are listed16:55
stephen__I'm sitting in front of a tmux session while I figure out what I need for X on my shiny new install.16:55
ejr(as for headless, i'd say there are two definitions: physically headless = without a monitor attached to it, and virtually headless = no gui running. but that's just my definition :P)16:56
ejrstephan__: why would you install X?16:56
msiismejr: hm... ok. and is the snd-hda-intel module loaded?16:56
stephen__because my framebuffer resolution refuses to go high enough to fit all my terminals16:56
msiismX is needed to run XTerm, of course16:56
stephen__rxvt-uncode, tyvm16:57
stephen__*remembers to install fbterm, fbi, etc...*16:57
ejrmsiism: i loaded it with modprobe snd_hda_intel, but i am not sure how to check whether it has actually been loaded successfully16:58
msiismejr: lsmod | grep ...16:58
msiismbut if you used `modprobe', it should be fine16:59
ejrwell, it shows snd_hda_intel on the left side of the list of lsmod, but on the right side (after the number) there is nothing, even though the other modules do have text there as well17:00
msiismi believe that there's no problem that.17:02
msiismwith that*17:03
msiismejr: can you upload an image of the ful picture of your alsamixer to a reasonable image host?17:03
msiismejr: maybe, if you have websapce of your own, simply put the image there and delete it later.17:04
ejri don't have webspace, but i will look for a suitable site, one sec17:05
Humhow about a friendsofdevuan wiki account?17:05
msiismejr: ok, take your time.17:07
msiismHum: is that you asking for such an account?17:08
* msiism looks17:13
msiismdespite being one of the most badly designed image host there are ;)17:13
ejri know ;( had to scp the screenshot to my gui-devuan and upload it from there; i have yet to find an an imagehost that works fine with w3m17:14
msiismi'm using a throw-away borwer profile for that now. never mind.17:15
msiismejr: so, what, in your view, indicates that alsamixer lists two sound cards?17:15
ejrwell, there's HDA Intel and there's Console Audio17:16
msiismdoesn't it just say "Card: HDA Intel"?17:16
ejrohh wait, i gave you the F2 output (System Information), not that of F6 >.>17:17
msiismalso, your master out is muted.17:17
ejrbut believe me, when i open asound/cards in the menu you see, it shows the same output as i pasted above from /proc/asound/cards17:17
msiismejr: yes, but alsamixer doesn't do that. and it's right that way.17:18
msiismejr: i suspect the problem is simply solved by unmuting master out and a few others :)17:19
ejrhm, wait, now i feel dumb. isn't master out the one on the very left?17:19
msiismand it say "MM"17:19
msiismwhich means "muted"17:19
msiismpress 'm' to unmute17:19
Hummsiism: No, if you have an account you can upload pics there and document your questions with answers ;)17:20
msiismHum: ok, right :)17:21
ejrmsiism: ok, now i feel seriously stupid. i never noticed the mute/unmute function in alsamixer. for about five years i just used the arrow keys to turn the volume off when i needed it to be mute >.>17:21
ejrthanks for pointing out. it works now.17:21
* ejr slaps himself with a large trout17:22
msiismno need for slapping, though. just remeber: alsa is often muted by default.17:22
ejryeah, after this ordeal i will never forget to check alsamixer's mute/unmute status for sure17:25
stephen__Normal users can't dmesg?17:26
msiismstephen__: that's a distro-specific thing, afaik.17:28
stephen__how do I enable normal user dmesg?17:36
stephen__nm, found it, sysctl to set kernel.dmesg_restrict to 017:37
msiismstephen__: sysctl?17:38
msiismok, i see.17:38
stephen__yeah, set the kernel variable via sysctl or /etc/sysctl.d/*.conf17:38
msiismthat is a good thing to know.17:39
msiismstephen__: this a pretty common question, i believe. so, if there's nothing on the fourm about it, it might be worth posting a little note in the documentation section.17:52
stephen__I think there's a bigger, more important issue that needs to be addressed.18:09
stephen__isntall still isn't an alias for install, whether using apt or apt-get...18:10
OmegaPhilaptidude should be an alias for aptitude18:10
stephen__These are the real usability issues that need attention.18:11
saptechOmegaPhil, why not just make it "Dude"?  :)18:31
OmegaPhildude install18:31
OmegaPhildude show18:31
OmegaPhilyeah could work18:31
sixwheeledbeastMy alias is "sag"18:33
sixwheeledbeastand also "sausage"18:36
MinceRthat's a good, woody sort of word18:36
sixwheeledbeastSudo Apt-get Update && Sudo Apt-get upGrade (Exit) - easy remembered18:38
stephen__Well, I managed to install the nvidia driver, but now my vts are all dead.  When I exit X I dont see anything, and switching vts doesn't help.  I can still startx to get back here, but ugh...18:41
stephen__My only comfort is that I did alias apt to dude and it's now much more fun to install things.18:41
Humstephen__: did you try the command reset?19:04
stephen__Yeah, it's not an issue of garbled or corrupted, the screen is blacked out.19:04
stephen__huh, tab completion doesn't seem to be working on my new install19:16
HumOmegaPhil: for aptidude you can create a shell script in /usr/local/bin since it is first in the PATH19:17
stephen__probably user error.19:17
stephen__I'm going to reboot and see if nvidia unbreaks my vts. bbl.19:17
HumOmegaPhil: or create a list of alias19:17
Humone alias several aliases ?19:18
OmegaPhilI'm well aware, it was a joke19:28
stephen__I wasn't joking, I really made it an alias.19:29
stephen__For both my user and root.19:29
stephen__I'll be doing it on all the machines at work, too.19:30
stephen__And then I'll see if anyone notices.19:30
Humstephen__: why don't you make a gitlab, github or wiki account and publish your list. If you need it you can download it.19:32
stephen__Huh, as dumb as this sounds, I actually do that for all my other dot files, just not my bashrc...19:33
* stephen__ makes note to add it later19:33
Humin public?19:40
eyalrozI can't find any information on the site about plans for the next Devuan release (Beowulf) and its state as the current "testing", and the suggest distirbution upgrade path. With Debian, I can be pretty much certain "testing" is quite usable, but I don't know about devuan; nor do I know whether just replacing ascii with beowulf in my apt sources and dist-upgrading is advisable.19:42
eyalrozAny thoughts/links/suggestions are welcome...19:43
golinuxYou can find a installer-amd64 and i386 mini.iso here:
golinuxymmv as it is unstable after all.  ;)19:50
golinuxeyalroz: ^^^19:50
eyalrozgolinux: Umm, it's not unstable, it's in testing phase. Or isn't it?19:51
golinuxOr you can upgrade from ASCII.  There are threads on the forum anout that.19:51
golinuxThat is the only iso for beowulf directly without and upgrade.19:51
golinuxIt is a WIP.19:52
eyalrozgolinux: How likely am I to succeed in upgrading from ASCII? That is, are there known serious issues with that? ... ok, wait, never mind, I'll check the forum. Thanks.19:53
golinuxSome recent work on policykiy stuff seems to have solved19:53
golinuxsome major issues19:54
golinuxJust search for "beowulf"19:54
Guest55161hello everybody anyone have used antix linux23:20
Guest55161are you advice it23:21
golinuxMight be better to ask that on our OT channel #debianfork23:25

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