libera/#devuan/ Monday, 2019-02-11

XenguyI think he's on the wrong track entirely00:03
XenguyHe's promoting the idea of infecting the BSD ecosystem with systemd now...00:03
XenguyIronically LP was entirely happy to throw the BSDs under the bus in his coding of systemd00:04
XenguyThe BSDs should realize that systemd in linux is enouraging people to explore the BSDs, people that might not have bothered otherwise00:05
buZzi do keep hearing devuan mentioned more and more in general user channels00:05
buZzgood times00:05
buZz(like ##hardware)00:06
XenguyRight glad I am to hear it00:06
DrDekei admit that _some_ of my dislike of systemd is attributable to resistance-to-change or not seeing why the change is beneficial. but as i use it more, there are also plenty of things about it that i actually dislike for reasons.00:11
buZzmy biggest annoyance is the lack of startup order00:15
buZzwhich kills even many fresh install of it from recovering properly from suspend/hibernate00:16
buZzsooo many of my /etc/rc.local just got 'sleep 60' at the top to make SURE it runs last00:16
roo^ydoes booting the new Refracta 9's boot menu, & using the install feature, have more install options than starting Refracta live desktop, & using Menu > System > 'Refracta Installer' feature? or is the only difference that from the live desktop, there will be less hardware resources available?05:36
fsmithredroo^y, what install feature in the boot menu???05:38
fsmithredthere is only refractainstaller05:38
fsmithredwhat options do you want?05:39
roo^y..well it was late last night, the pc booted refracta's boot menu, & i skipped past what i assume was install options, & chose the US live boot (**not those specific words) but i was happy i got to try it live 1st, when i didn't know if it had a live desktop boot option or not05:41
fsmithredno install option in the menu05:42
fsmithredany changes you make in the live system will be copied in the install05:42
fsmithredbut adding software in live is not a good idea - you can run out of ram fast05:43
roo^yok. i haven't shut it down this live session to see it's boot options again05:43
fsmithredbed time here. Talk fast, or I'll catch you in the morning (mine)05:44
roo^yi'll leave you alone. goodnight.05:44
fsmithredthere's an install guide with screenshots05:44
fsmithredI'll get the link05:45
roo^yi didn't know if the ISO i installed to USB uses rEFInd or Grub, but it works05:45
furrywolfmeep, a roo in here?05:45
roo^yyup, don't shoot. allergic to bullets05:45
furrywolfI'm far, far more likely to randomly pet and/or hug roos.  :P05:46
roo^ythankyou again. snore hard05:46
fsmithrediso will boot isolinux on bios, grub on efi05:46
fsmithredgrub-efi-amd64 is installed. If you boot bios, the installer will find the grub-pc package and ask you if you want to copy the files. Yes, you do.05:47
roo^ywell if you see a roo in the wild. i hope it isn't a big male, or any agressive roo that claws, bites, kicks, & tears you to shreds05:47
fsmithredg'night and good luck05:47
roo^yI have a problem with refracta's installer. i've chosen to manage partitions myself, but it wants me to have already done this, when I wanted to use gparted to put a fat32 boot partition infront of the main ext4 "sda1" (it let me choose sda1 for boot, then let me choose it for refaracta install, but said i can't use it for both *well open gparted & i'll fix that :P * )13:24
fsmithredroo^y, you can't use a separate partition for /boot and for the rest of the OS, too.13:28
fsmithredwhy fat32 boot partition???13:28
fsmithredwhat exactly are you trying to do?13:29
roo^yi already setup ext4 for sda1 & swap for sda2. i was going to change it with gparted to add a partition. sda1 would now be a small UEFI FAT partition. a slightly reduced sda2 would be the main ext4, with a unchanged swap "sda3"13:31
fsmithredso why is that a problem? Should be easy.13:32
fsmithredor is the system already installed?13:32
roo^yduring installation i chose yes, hit me up with gparted & i'll get to work (so to speak) instead it gave me options of choosing where to put boot & main install, not going to gparted13:33
fsmithredgui or cli installer?13:34
fsmithredcan you paste the log somewhere so I can see?13:35
roo^yi closed the installer13:36
roo^ycan gparted be accessed from the live desktop13:36
fsmithredlook at /var/log/refractainstaller.log13:36
fsmithredit's in System or Preferences in the menu13:37
roo^ythis is not spam
fsmithredif you do all your partitioning before running the installer, you can check the 'do not format' box.13:38
roo^ythat might be my problem13:38
roo^yi may have prematurely ticked Do Not Format13:39
fsmithredthat should not stop you from running gparted13:41
ejrwhat's your average cpu temperature when you are running devuan on your systems without any too cpu-extensive processes? (I might also ask: is 60-70°C normal?)13:43
r3bootthat kind of depends on the type of cpu, the workload running on there, but also the airflow inside of the casing + the ambient temperature + humidity :)13:44
fsmithredejr, that sounds high. It varies depending on the cpu model. Right now I'm at 24 and 16.13:44
fsmithredI have a laptop that runs up to 60-70 if I'm watching video.13:45
r3bootI have a hppa2 that runs 90C celcius @ idle; I've got atoms that run ambient room temperature when idle. Video is a good way to stress cpu's13:46
r3bootejr: what is your system doing atm? How many cores do you have in use?13:46
ejri think it has to do with my thinkpad ultrabase, because the temperature only goes that high when it's plugged into that (or when i am doing cpu-intensive stuff like, as you said, watching videos)13:46
r3bootDoes that block airflow in any way?13:47
ejr2 cores, x60 thinkpad (i.e. rather old) and nothing running except tmux, ssh client and vim13:47
r3bootCould also be that your cpu is running in performance mode (instead of powersaving mode) as soon as you plugin your AC adapter13:47
r3bootbut, I'd check which processes are running, and how much they are currently are consuming13:47
ejrit also happens with other x60's with the same architecture and system, so I think it's really due to the ultrabase mostly.13:47
roo^yi can find gparted in synaptic package manager. i can't run it on live desktop13:48
r3bootif your box is really idle, i'd suspect airflow inside of the casing (dust, etc)13:48
r3boot(get a can of compressed air to clean that out)13:48
ejryeah, i think i should do that13:48
r3bootalso, it can help to re-add thermal paste to your heatsinks, that dries out over time13:48
r3boot(but, do that step only if the compressed air step doesnt help)13:49
ejrah right, have heard about that. thanks for the advice13:49
roo^y"less thermal paste is more" i've done a couple of repastes. only need the tiniest amount13:50
ejrthis is where youtube tutorials are actually useful (or images) i guess13:50
r3bootejr: mja, like roo^y mentions, repasting can be a bit tricky, so only do that if all else fails :)13:52
r3bootwith the compressed air: first, loosen up material by blowing agaist the direction of the airflow inside the case, and follow up by blowing in the direction of the airflow. Should have it clean in less then 5 mins or so13:53
roo^yi busted the plastic fan clamp/heatsink clamp once13:53
r3bootMeh :)13:53
* r3boot once upgraded a cisco pix (hardware firewall, slow as molasses, but enterprise grade) with the biggest p3 processor I could find, so I could run ASA firmware on there (the successor to pix, also enterprise grade). Took me quite a few attempts to get the amount of paste correct before the system ran stable13:55
roo^yInstaller: 'Partitioning' clicking on button [Run Gparted] goes to 'Select EFI partition' clicking on button [partitioner] loops back to start of process 'Partitioning'14:07
roo^ymaking Gparted a non-existing ghost, in this instance14:08
fsmithredroo^y, I'm about to try it. It's never done that before.14:15
roo^yclicking [Gparted] button again here, goes to 'Format EFI' "Format new efi partition?" button [Yes] goes to '/boot partition' "Select a partition for /boot"14:15
roo^ySo as I'm failing to run gparted from the desktop, i can go back to my prev. OS & use gparted to add a boot partition, or i could add the bootloader to this USB i've booted live desktop off of (it has a sda1 i unnecessarilly made with the unneeded rEFInd)14:18
roo^y& put the bootloader where it needs to be at a later time14:19
roo^ys/needs to/should/14:20
fsmithredcheck sha256sum of the iso to make sure the download was good14:21
fsmithredyou're using refracta iso with Feb 6 date in the filename?14:21
fsmithredwhy do you need a separate boot partition?14:22
fsmithredin live session, if gparted won't start from menu, run 'sudo gparted' in terminal14:23
r3bootfsmithred: she/he has a uefi-based system, which requires a dedicated boot partition14:23
roo^yi've only assumed UEFI/EFI needs it's own FAT partition for my mele pcg35 opo (no BIOS)14:24
roo^y< - penis-person14:24
* r3boot also has a separate /boot (MBR-based, on an usb stick), with my full sdd luks encrypted.14:24
roo^yexternal appendage14:25
fsmithredr3boot, a boot partition is a separate partition for /boot14:25
fsmithrednot the same as the efi partition14:26
r3boot*Linux boot partition then ;)14:26
r3bootI was talking about the hardware boot partition.. but lets not get stuck on semantics14:26
roo^ysudo gparted didn't work (I had my douts, as it didn't work from the root terminal)14:26
fsmithredwell, he's using an installer that has a checkbox for using a separate /boot partition14:27
fsmithredsomething odd is going on14:27
Wonkasince efi-grub, a "BIOS boot partition" is no longer necessary for EFI systems to be able to boot...14:28
Wonkajust have EFI boot efi-grub, which then can boot Linux14:29
fsmithredroo^y, what iso are you using?14:29
Wonkaneeds an EFI System Partition though (FAT)14:29
roo^yis there a cmd that will list it's build?14:31
roo^yi assume it was the same listed the other day on distrowatch14:32
fsmithredls /lib/live/mount/medium14:32
fsmithredshould show a package list directory that has the date in it14:32
roo^yisolinux  pkglist_refracta9_xfce_amd64-20190206_172414:34
fsmithredok, that's the latest one14:34
fsmithredyou put it on usb or cd?14:35
fsmithredhow? dd/cat or something else?14:36
roo^ydd to partition 2 (as i wrongly thought i needed refind14:36
roo^ywhich i'd installed to partition 1)14:37
fsmithredok, I've never tried it that way, and I didn't know it would work14:38
fsmithrednormally, you dd it to the whole device14:38
roo^yPlease CLOSE all running applications NOW (you silly bald aussie, n we'll install to SSD & boot to USB like r3boot) :P14:39
fsmithredI keep refind on an old 256mb usb stick by itself14:39
roo^yi see14:39
fsmithredyou're running refractasnapshot?14:40
roo^yi don't believe i've used that feature14:40
fsmithredok, I don't recall the installer saying to close all running apps14:40
fsmithredsnapshot does say that14:41
roo^ythat installer guide link you gave me even has close all apps (must be modern instructions)14:41
fsmithredyeah, it's in the summary window. I forgot that was there.14:44
roo^yit's killall -9 firefox o'clock here14:44
roo^yi forgot i have irccloud. i'm not going anywhere14:44
roo^yfirefox: no process found14:45
roo^ythan you shall stay running14:45
roo^yinstall completed, but i don't think i got boot installed to USB. i may have to boot back into Easy Pyro OS & use gparted in there to create a boot partition ..then install boot from the live desktop without installing refracta again15:10
roo^ywell i see grub-efi-ia32_2.02~beta3-5+deb9u1_amd64.deb in the filesystem which might do it :s15:16
fsmithredroo^y, what does fdisk -l show?15:17
fsmithreddoes your hard drive already have a bootloader and another linux on it?15:18
fsmithredand if so, does that other linux boot in uefi mode?15:19
fsmithredand if so, does your hardware need a 32-bit uefi bootloader?15:21
roo^yI closed pc down. booted to boot menu of refracta on usb. entered grub. pressed c for cmd line15:33
roo^ywas a fresh install on new ssd. no previous bootloader15:34
specingroo^y: installing GRUB means writing GRUB's first stage loader into MBR and the second stage loader (~500KB) in the space between MBR and first partition (not sure about the second part)15:36
specingand the third stage (modules) into /boot partition15:36
fsmithredexcept on uefi where installing grub means putting a bootloader in the efi partition15:37
specingin case you have UEFI, I think the above simplifies into just installing a lot of files into the EFI partition, but I have no UEFI hardware to see this myself15:37
fsmithredroo^y, what's your partition scheme15:37
* specing GRUB in bios flash ftw15:38
roo^yall of ssd is partitioned to ext4, except for the last 4GB, SWAP15:39
roo^yoriginally, I gave up trying to leave a gap before the main partition, as it was messing up the other partition sizes, of leaving 4GB after it15:44
fsmithredyou need at least two partitions, three if you want a swap partition.15:45
fsmithredone efi partition, fat32 with esp and boot flags15:45
fsmithredone linux partition15:45
fsmithredoptional swap partition. (The installer will make a 256mb swapfile if you don't have a swap partition)15:45
fsmithredsince you already installed, you could shrink the existing partition to make room for efi partition.15:46
fsmithred100mb is more than enough15:47
roo^yonce made, what's the best way to install to efi partition?15:48
fsmithredboot from grub command line into the installed system15:49
fsmithredrun 'grub-install' (no device!!!)15:49
fsmithredthen update-grub15:49
specing256 MB swapfile haha15:49
specingthis is like those other extremes, such as 1+GB /boot15:49
fsmithredI've seen as much as 80mb of swap get used (with 2G ram)15:50
specingfsmithred: just 80MB?15:50
specingI've seen all off 8GB swap used with 8GB RAM15:51
fsmithredother than hibernating?15:51
specingthere is no upper limit15:51
specingfsmithred: yes15:51
fsmithredwhat are you doing?15:51
specingcompiling firefox/libreoffice on tmpfs tends to do that15:51
specingor QT15:51
fsmithredoh, I'm using 88 right now15:52
roo^yI'm on grub cmd now. can I boot refracta on ssd from here?15:52
fsmithredyes roo^y15:52
Wonkajftr, there's the grml-rescueboot package which adds entries to grub's menu for all existing GRML images in /boot/grml/15:52
fsmithredset root=(hd0,gpt1) (if it's the first partition)15:52
WonkaGRML is a very nice live linux system15:52
fsmithredlinux /vmlinuz ro root=/dev/sda115:52
fsmithredinitrd /initrd.img15:52
Wonkaspecing: and GRML is the reason why I have 2GB /boot.15:53
fsmithredyeah, I've put a live iso in a big /boot partition before. It's handy.15:53
Wonkafor rescuing stuff when the main system is f*cked up somehow...15:54
WonkaI have recovered my system that way several times...15:54
roo^yerror: '/vmlinuz' not found15:56
specingWonka: GRML?15:57
specingWonka: I have old systems available (btrfs snapshots)15:57
Wonkaspecing: grml.org15:57
specingfsmithred: that swap is in RAM btw (zswap, 40% reduction with compression)15:57
Wonkaspecing: well, my notebook is fully encrypted (excluding /boot, of course), so if the initramfs is broken, I can't just revert to an earlier snapshot because I can't open the crypto15:58
specingWonka: my notebook is fully encrypted (including! /boot, of course)15:59
Wonkaspecing: using GRML, I can cryptsetup LUKSopen (or whatever), mount, chroot, repair initramfs, reboot, done15:59
Wonkaspecing: where's your kernel and initramfs?15:59
specingWonka: in /boot15:59
specingWonka: GRUB can read LUKS since a decade ago15:59
Wonkaspecing: mhkay... nice. I'd still want someplace unencrypted for GRML... it's just too handy.16:00
Wonkaalso, I don't actually boot using grub, but rEFInd16:01
specingas you wish, my computer is setup to only boot my GPG-signed kernels and initramfs, so having an unencrypted system would be counterproductive16:02
Wonkaso, your kernel is behind your crypto, and you still sign it... hmm.16:02
Wonkaalso, does your EFI check that your grub is unmodified?16:03
specingWonka: it is more a measure ensuring no other kernel is booted than ensuring that the encrypted ones are real16:04
specingI don't have EFI16:04
Wonkaeven worse ;)16:04
jonadabNot having EFI is a good thing.16:04
Wonkadoes your BIOS do anything to secure your grub is correct?16:04
jonadabBut it's getting to be a real pain to find hardware with a decent BIOS these days.16:05
Wonkais there any Secure Boot without EFI?16:05
specingWonka: no, because it being incorrect would mean the whole "BIOS" has been compromised16:05
jonadabNo, Secure Boot was specifically designed to make using open-source software difficult.16:05
specingWonka: my GRUB is part of the "BIOS", it is not installed on a hard drive or ssd16:05
Wonkaspecing: hm, coreboot?16:06
specingWonka: better, Libreboot16:06
Wonkaspecing: well, my HW has that fruit with a bite on it's lid, unlikely I'll get something like that working there...16:07
fsmithredroo^y, what's going on?16:08
Wonkanearly 8 years old, that thing... and I hope it'll last some more. there's nothing much on the market to replace it without losing features.16:09
roo^yI'll pack it in for today. set root cmd didn't throw error in live usb's grub. then next cmd error of file /vmlinuz not found16:12
fsmithredoh, maybe it's hd116:13
fsmithredyou can use tab-completion on grub command line16:13
fsmithredcan help you find stuff16:13
fsmithredset root=(hd1,16:13
specingWonka: if your fruitbite hardware is old enough, it might actually be supported16:13
fsmithredthen hit TAB and it should list possible choices16:13
Wonkaspecing: Early 201116:13
specingcore2duo macbooks are supported in Libreboot16:14
specingWonka: you can buy used thinkpads off ebay and similar places16:14
specingWonka: if you don't need a laptop or x86, you can look into talos workstations16:14
Wonkaspecing: i7-2620MQ, and I don't want to go back to something slower anymore. Iff some notebook with something current was supported by libreboot, I might look into trying it16:16
specingWonka: there are in-production supported arm notebooks, but it'd be a downgrade16:17
specingWonka: only talos would be an upgrade, but it is not a laptop16:17
Wonka<- waiting for reasonably fast RISC-V notebooks...16:17
specingit won't happen16:18
specingwe'll get POWER9 notebooks sooner16:18
specingheck, maybe IBM sees our thirst and releases a notebook POWER916:18
specingotherwise it'll be 4core/16thread 90W TDP CPU handicapped to 35W for laptop use16:19
specingMinceR: high-end POWER9 are over 200W per socket iirc16:19
specingmax 4 sockets per motherboard16:19
specingfull open source firmware (including microcode)16:19
roo^yit is hd1, but still no /vmlinuz16:19
sxpertspecing: comes with a tesla powerpack as the battery ?16:19
MinceRi don't expect anything good from ibm since they became card carrying apple shills, bought red hat and didn't stop any of their evil dealings16:20
specingsxpert: no need for that, 1kg of li-ion would hold it up for hours16:21
specingsxpert: 35W-capped 4core CPU in laptop use case, that is, servers use usually hooked to large lead acid UPS16:21
specingsxpert: 35W-capped 4core CPU in laptop use case, that is. servers are usually hooked to large lead acid UPS*16:22
sxpertspecing: we replaced the lead-acid with Li-ion UPS here16:22
sxpertlasts much longer for cheaper !16:22
specingMinceR: they open sourced all firmware16:22
sxpertspecing: including CPU microcode ?16:22
specingMinceR: you can even license the design and make your own processors yourself16:22
specingsxpert: YES16:23
MinceRwell, that's something16:23
specingChina is licensing OpenPOWER (POWER9) and making their own, as they do not trust intel/amd16:23
specingRussia are making their own ARM-based SoCs nowadays16:24
WonkaI'd prefer LiFePO4 batteries though. A little less capacity, but much less BOOM when damaged16:24
specingWonka: don't damage them :P16:24
specingWonka: cylindrical li-ion is very safe16:25
Wonkaspecing: can't always avoid it when mobile...16:25
specingI have high energy density cylindrical cells all over the place, exposed16:25
Wonkanot all notebook batteries are made from cylindrical cells...16:25
sxpertspecing: russia is designing their own RiscV processors for their newfangled govt-use cellphones16:26
specingsamsung tests random samples of their cells to withstand impact, fall, oven,...16:26
sxpertWonka: EDONTCARE, thing is outside16:26
Wonkathe DELL at my last workplace had it's battery cushion out a little16:26
specingthey will leak, not explode16:26
specingthe only danger is if you keep cylindrical li-ion in waterproof containers (e.g. high quality flashlights)16:27
sxpertspecing: what happens then ?16:27
MinceRLiFePO4 is also longer lived, afaik16:27
specingbut a normal plastic laptop battery will just burst at the seams if enough pressure builds up16:27
specingsxpert: if you are lucky the lens/button will give out16:28
specingsxpert: if not, it'll explode like a pipe bomb16:28
Wonkaspecing: and if you don't keep them watertight, you risk short circuits when you expose your device to water. like rain. when outside.16:28
specingMinceR: it is, but the low energy density makes it not worth it for person-mobile applications16:28
specingMinceR: but it is fine for e.g. electric bus use. It can also be recharged much faster16:29
sxpertspecing: still less dangerous than cop's grenades...16:29
specingsxpert: yes, li-ion flashlights are not meant to kill people16:29
specingwell, the $3 china zoomies might be, but fortunately those are not waterproof16:30
MinceRiirc in a few years ordinary Li-Ion's energy density drops below that of LiFePO416:30
sxpertspecing: 2 dead and 7 lost hand/foot and counting...16:31
Wonkafrom french cop flash bangs?16:31
specingMinceR: if they are abused as usual, meaning charged to >4V and heated by laptop cpu16:32
specingMinceR: otherwise no16:32
specingMinceR: electric vehicle and grid balancing li-ion packs are designed to last decades16:32
Wonkauuuh, overcharing is evil16:32
specingWonka: yes. But everyone does it16:32
specinggoing from 4V to 4.2V gives device manufacturers another runtime hour in reviews16:33
specingbut nobody does battery life reviews after a year of use16:33
Wonkahmf. introduce a setting for charge stop voltage?16:33
sxpertWonka: bad BMS devices are very cheap...16:34
Wonka"the higher, the more runtime, but less lifetime"?16:34
specingWonka: some devices have it, e.g. thinkpads16:34
specingWonka: indirectly, via stop percentage16:34
sxpertspecing: most good quality phones / tablets16:34
specingsxpert: this is not due to BMS16:34
MinceRhow do i set that?16:34
r3bootNot really a review, but the thinkwiki does have a lot of info wrt battery maintenance / care
sxpertspecing: no, I said "bad BMS", those with funky constants16:35
specingMinceR: echo 80 > /sys/devices/platform/smapi/BAT0/stop_charge_thresh16:35
specingsxpert: the BMS does not set charge voltage16:35
specingsxpert: the BMS only interrupts charging if the voltage rises too much, which is usually 4.25V. But this should never happen during normal operation.16:36
MinceRspecing: thx16:36
specingr3boot: the german one should have even more.16:36
sxpertspecing: I'm talking about combination charger / bms you get for 2$ from aliexpress16:36
specingsxpert: thats it not a bad BMS, that is a bad buyer16:37
specingclueless buyer gets hardware appropriate for clueless buyers ;D16:37
specingsxpert: and I haven't seen combo charger+BMS on single PCB being sold outside DIY powerbank16:39
sxpertspecing: tre16:42
specingthough if you ask me, a complete Xiaomi powerbank is cheaper than DIY16:43
sxpertspecing: true, and you can find lots of those in Huaqiangbei16:43
specingyou can also use a thinkpad battery as powerbank by attaching a buck converter to its power pins16:45
specingUnfortunatelly all my thinkpad batteries are a decade old and have lost 50% of their capacity. Will have to re-cell them some day.16:48
specingand reverse engineer the BMS in them so a FOSS one can be made16:48
specinggiven that there is no high-performance open harwdare laptop on the horizon, I'll probably be stuck with core2duo thinkpads for the next decade at least16:54
cosurgiguys, where can I find package xserver-xorg-core-dbgsym ?17:08
cosurgiI need to install it from repository, so that it will work also for currently running Xorg sessions.17:09
cosurgiI tried   "deb  ascii            main non-free contrib" but that didn't work.17:09
cosurgiI have xserver-xorg-core 2:1.19.2-1+deb17:10
KatolaZcosurgi: cosurgi you need to get it from the debian repo17:10
cosurgiAnd I have even compiled my own xserver-xorg-core-dbgsym_1.19.2-1+deb9u5_amd64.deb, but if I install it, then I guess that it won't work for a currently running session.17:11
KatolaZcosurgi: we are not merging -debug repos17:11
KatolaZwe actually should17:11
KatolaZbut wre aren't atm17:11
cosurgiSo this one: deb stretch-debug main ?17:12
KatolaZjust get it from the pool17:13
KatolaZoh it's not there sorry17:14
cosurgiok. A package xserver-xorg-core-dbgsym is available and I installed it.17:14
cosurgiI added this to /etc/apt/sources.list17:14
cosurgibut I need to verify that it's binary compatibile with my presently running Xorg17:15
cosurgihow would I do that?17:15
KatolaZcosurgi: we haven't forked xorg17:15
KatolaZso the xorg package comes directly from Debian17:15
cosurgi(oops, not this terminal ;)17:16
KatolaZhence, the corresponding dbgsym should be binary compatible17:16
cosurgiok. so it just should be compatible, you say? :)17:16
KatolaZit should17:16
cosurgiok, thanks :)17:17
cosurgiKatolaZ: please let me know if you start mergind -debug repos, and what is the deb address for /etc/apt/sources.list17:33
cosurgiI add this one from debian for now.17:33
KatolaZcosurgi: we will surely circulate that information widely17:33
KatolaZonly, it has not really been a priority so far17:34
cosurgisure, ok :) I just switched to nouveau drivers, and experience crashes sometimes. Guys from #nouveau ask for stack trace :)17:34
FlibberTGibbethas anyone encountered 'blank red screen' syndrom on waking a laptop using ascii and i915 drivers? happens with lightdm and either xfce or i3 here.17:35
_evI've just begun using Devuan this morning. Flawless thus far. Which manpage do I read for sysvinit? "man init" and "man update-rc.d" ?18:56
greenjeansIs there a a beowulf download available or would I need to do ascii and upgrade?21:08
fsmithredchange amd64 to i386 if you want. Be careful, both isos have the same name.21:09
greenjeansyou da man FSR, thanks!21:09
fsmithredI gotta go. See you later.21:09
specingfsmithred: are there gpg signatures for those?21:53
specingOkay, so I've decided to try out the beowulf installer in a VM and it looks just as horrible as debian's installer looked like 10 years ago when I last tried it22:38
specingnamely: 1) The minimum iso is 45MB and yet it still has to download packages even before partitioning can begin. Don't you think this .iso is a bit too minimal?22:39
specing2) It takes a damn while for transitions between different screens22:39
golinuxI think it is done that way so that the latest pks can be included and you won't have to dl twice22:39
specing3) It won't let me encrypt whole disk? That is, no partition tables at all22:43
gnarfacei think the beowulf installer you used is just a work-in-progress version of the "businesscard" installer.  debian still has these too, last i checked.  you want the "netinstall" image, of which there probably just isn't one prepared for beowulf22:44
specing4) It asks for user/root passwords, timezones and whatnot even before touching the disks, prolonging the install process22:44
gnarfaceyea, that's not a bug22:44
golinuxgnarface: There isn't a netinstall image for beowulf22:45
golinuxonly the mini.iso22:45
gnarfacegolinux: yea, there isn't one yet i meant to say.  there still will be one eventually though, won't there?22:45
golinuxOf course.  The mini.iso is for testing22:45
golinuxsome options were added to the installer22:46
gnarfacejust making sure that's clear for specing... i think he's under the impression this is intended to be beowulf's final form22:46
golinuxand the [kgs are in flux.22:46
specinggnarface: I'm hoping that my listing of issues can help it not being the final form22:47
golinuxspecing: Don't you need root to download pkgs up front?22:47
golinuxYou are critiquing  something that is used for internal testing.22:48
golinuxWhich is pretty non-productive.22:48
specinggolinux: no, why would I?22:48
golinuxTry the ascii netinstall and see if that more to your linking the changes the soureces. list to beowulf22:49
specingdoes ascii have apparmor enabled and enforcing?22:49
golinuxOy lots of typos/.  Sorry22:49
golinuxI don't think so.  But it will after an upgrade to beowulf iiuc22:50
specingWhen will the upgrade to beowulf be available?22:50
golinuxYou can do it now but ymmv22:51
golinuxThere are lots of thread son the forum22:51
specing5) THe installer defaults to "erase data" in the disk encryption menus, which is just as slow and much less effective than overwriting with pseudorrandom data22:51
gnarfacespecing: it's available right now, it's just got broken stuff.  you were referred to the mini.iso previously because you seemed like you wanted to help with the actually broken stuff.  none of what you're complaining about right now is actually broken.22:52
gnarfacethere's things like package dependency conflicts to deal with22:53
KatolaZgnarface: which?22:53
KatolaZ(it's a genuine question)22:53
gnarfaceKatolaZ: i don't have any specific examples in mind22:53
gnarfaceKatolaZ: am i already out-of-date on that?  are those all fixed now?22:53
gnarfacei thought there was still an ongoing issue with polkit/elogind22:54
gnarfaceor some stuff related to that22:54
KatolaZdunno gnarface22:54
KatolaZif there is anything broken, just shout22:54
gnarfaceand i assume a myriad of ant-systemd patches to window managers and stuff that got into ascii that still need to be re-applied/merged with beowulf22:55
KatolaZpolicykit should be fixed now22:55
gnarfaceoh, good to know22:55
KatolaZthere is some working going on with slim22:55
KatolaZand there might be a few things to iron out22:55
KatolaZbut please if you (or anybody) finds something that does not work, just shout22:55
KatolaZopen a bug on bugs.devuan.org22:55
KatolaZwe need to know asap22:56
specing6) using the partitioner feels like walking around an undirected cyclic graph22:57
golinuxspecing just posted a list of complaints about the installer itself22:57
specing6+) ..instead of a tree as it should be22:57
specing7) compression and other flags are missing in the mount options for btrfs23:00
specing8) the small menu right after you select use for a block device is very confusing, as it is basically asking you for confirmation of this action. But this is not necessary as no changes have been applied and it can be changed to something else quickly23:02
KatolaZspecing: what are you talking about exactly?23:05
specingKatolaZ: after you assign a device for LUKS, it basically again asks you what to use it for23:07
specing9) When I create a LUKS device, the created "logical device" pops up above the real device and in the same indentation level instead of being indented a few to the right of the parent device23:07
specing9+ the LVM lvolume in that LUKS device popped up between the virtual LVM device and the physical LUKS host. This is so utterly confusing23:08
KatolaZspecing: we haven't touched the partition tool23:09
KatolaZso it comed directly from Debian23:09
specing10) There is no support for btrfs subvolumes?!23:09
specingKatolaZ: I figured. It is exactly the same as I remember it from a decade ago23:10
KatolaZspecing: I doubt that, since btrfs was included in stretch/ascii :)23:10
KatolaZso two years ago23:10
KatolaZbut I get your point23:11
specingthe looks/feels of it, I'm sure some new feature makes it in per decade23:11
watchcatyou can get apparmour in ascii by installing kernel 4.19 from ascii backports.23:18
gnarfacespecing: please, learn to segregate your distaste for the aesthetics of the interface from actual complaints about missing/broken functionality.  i'm not even the one working on it and i even find it offensive the way you're doing that.  i'm not sure it's intentional though, which is why i'm bringing it up like this.23:20
specingwatchcat: kernel support is 0.01% of functional apparmor/selinux23:21
specingwatchcat: 99.99% are good security policies23:22
specingwatchcat: well, are there good apparmor security policies in ascii?23:24
specinggnarface: I'm just bitter because it has many of the same problems that I remember from a decade ago23:25
gnarfacespecing: everything you've complained about other than it being ugly was a feature that didn't exist a decade ago23:25
gnarfaceso there's that23:25
gnarface(ignoring stuff that works you just don't like how)23:26
gnarfaceit's ok to be bitter when it's well-directed23:26
gnarfacebut some of your problems are clearly self-inflicted23:27
gnarface(we've all been there before too)23:27
specingIt proceeded to start installing after partitioning is complete.23:27
specingI'm positively surprised that it did not complain about /boot on btrfs-lvm-luks combobreaker23:27
gnarfaceand i used to hate the debian installer's "ugly" ncurses look&feel too.   fyi, it grows on you23:28
specingThe UI's looks are fine, it is the feels that are wrong23:28
specingI like nice textual user interfaces23:28
specingIs there a way to interrupt the actual package download and install process, so I can do the subvoluming myself?23:29
gnarfacelots of people run into complications using the auto-partitioning feature with encryption and LVM stuff23:29
gnarfacejust like 10 years ago, you should still be able to get a shell with alt+F423:30
gnarfacedo whatever you want to the install23:30
gnarfacei don't think they even changed the working mount point (/target if i recall?)23:30
gnarfaceyou should be able to chroot into it and manipulate the install at that point23:31
gnarfacei admit it's been almost 10 years since i've had to though23:31
gnarfacethe installer is really in a lot better shape than it was back then.  it doesn't look any different but it's better.23:32
specingI am in shell, it is just that it will not let me unmount doe to the installer still touching it23:32
gnarfacehmm.  you might have to catch it before or after the actual package download23:33
gnarfacebut from that shell you should be able to interrupt the download by killing it manually, too23:33
specingI need to remount to 1) change root filesystem from / to /devuan/root.subvol  2) add compress=zlib,nossd,autodefrag to the mount flags23:33
specinggnarface: is it easily restartable?23:33
gnarfacespecing: i assume just go back to alt+f1 and select that menu entry again23:33
specingkilling programs is easy, picking up the pieces usually less so23:34
gnarfaceit should in theory just error back to the main menu, from where you can re-do any of the selections23:34
gnarface*from which23:34
KatolaZspecing: just go back to one of the steps to re-do it23:34
gnarfacei feel like there's gotta be an easier way to do what he's doing.  isn't there some optional installer component you can load that does this for you?23:36
KatolaZthere must be23:36
specingbusybox ps not displaying a hierarchical process tree is making it difficult to select proper kill targets23:36
gnarfacecryptsetup or something like that?  isn't that what this is for?23:37
KatolaZspecing: are you doing an expert install?23:37
specingcryptsetup is the LUKS encryption utility23:37
specingKatolaZ: I believe so23:37
nemofirst official devuan instance at work \o/23:53
specingIs there a document somewhere on how to make a lightweight mirror? Basically a package proxy with caching capabilities23:57
specingapt-mirror creates a full one, correct?23:58
gnarfacespecing: there's already apt caching proxies in the repo for you to use.  i liked apt-cacher-ng, which i think needed a patch for devuan but i think it's got it by now...23:58

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