libera/#devuan/ Friday, 2019-03-22

DocScrutinizer05furrywolf: I just read on #maemo (also somewhat OT there) thatfarcebook has other problems as well: false positives fromn "filters" that forbid posting references to a danish site about building a Delphi program. I think this all are pretty good arguments why you should think twice before using any such service where you are the product rather than the customer11:20
DocScrutinizer05on topic: wikipedia Germany yesterday had a cover-page about notorious §11 §13 upload filter and copyright EU regulations which are once more on  schedule to get turned into applicable law in a few days11:22
DocScrutinizer05on topic:
furrymcgeedevuan needs a systemd filter11:29
KatolaZfurrymcgee: uh?11:48
furrymcgeeeu law is kind of difficult, the init topic is what I understand at least11:55
furrymcgeeapropos init, hopefully there are debian developers who still care about it. please second a patch to this bug in debian-policy
golinuxfurrymcgee: Debian and Devuan devs are already collaborating on sysvinit.16:38
xrogaanI have no clue how resolvconf associated with dnsmasq is supposed to work. I know that dnsmasq is getting its dns server list at the network initialisation. However, when starting the machine, that sometimes fails and dnsmasq doesn't build the list which forces me to reload /etc/init.d/networking17:23
xrogaanI also do not use the dns from dhcp, I have custom ones in /etc/network/interfaces17:24
xrogaanMaybe I should set them directly in dnsmasq instead.17:24
gnarfaceyou should set them in /etc/resolv.conf and uninstall resolvconf17:25
gnarfacethen when you change dnsmasq, you will only have to restart dnsmasq17:25
gnarfaceif you are running a dhcp server and not using it, you should uninstall that too17:27
gnarfacedhcp client*17:27
xrogaanI'm using it, it configure the local ip and all that stuff. I just don't want the ISP's dns servers.17:37
xrogaanBy default, debian configure that from the dhcp stuff.17:38
gnarfacewell in that case, what you're supposed to do is configure the dhcp client to not mangle your resolv.conf17:38
gnarfacethat should be possible17:38
xrogaanright, and also the ntp stuff comes from dhcp by default.17:38
gnarfacethough a long time ago i remember having to change dhcp clients to get the right functionality, it was one of the ones in the repo17:38
xrogaanI removed these from the "request" in dhclient.conf: domain-name-servers, dhcp6-name-servers dhcp6.sntp-servers, ntp-servers17:40
xrogaanSo resolv.conf should be alright.17:41
gnarfacei remember having to create a template of it or something like that17:41
gnarfacethat might have been because i was changing locations actually though, now i'm not sure17:41
xrogaanAnyhow, for custom dns and ntp servers you need to remove some function from dhcp regardless of resolvconf or dnsmasq17:43
KatolaZfor custom dns `chattr +a /etc/resolv.conf` is enough17:44
KatolaZwho said you need to be gentle with programs?17:45
KatolaZit's much easier than fiddling with 3/4 different conf files17:46
KatolaZand works *always*17:46
xrogaanKatolaZ: you really shouldn't do that though, if the file is being changed it means something is changing it. Finding the cause and eliminating it is, IMHO, proper.17:46
KatolaZxrogaan: there is very little that happens on my machine for which I don't know what is causing it17:47
xrogaanThat was one of the "solutions" given when I was searching why my dns always reverted to the ISP. But digging deeper it turned out to be the dhcp client being rogue.17:47
xrogaanUndocumented behavior and all.17:47
KatolaZxrogaan: it's not "being rougue"17:47
KatolaZit's just that you can use different dhclients17:48
KatolaZand each of them has different config files17:48
KatolaZthis solution works for any of them17:48
xrogaanWhat I mean is that nowhere it is explain what the dhclient is doing to the local configuration. The user may try to configure a ntp client, and see it not being used for some reason and will have no idea as to why. dhcp seems unrelated to ntp right?17:50
xrogaanSo machine configuration gets overridden by dhcp by default.17:51
KatolaZxrogaan: I don't see how ntp is related to dhcp, sorry17:51
xrogaanExactly my point17:51
KatolaZno really17:51
KatolaZhow setting dns servers is related to ntp?17:52
xrogaanI don't know what kind of dhcp client is installed by default, but the /etc/dhcp/dhclient.conf has these in the "request" line: sntp-servers, ntp-servers17:52
xrogaanThat tells the dhcp client to get the ntp servers from dhcp and set them for the machine.17:53
xrogaanIf the user do not know that, and I assume most of them do not, they'll have no idea why when configuring their machine the settings changes.17:54
KatolaZxrogaan: if users don't know, they should learn :)17:55
xrogaanBut a undocumented behavior.17:55
xrogaanSorry, I'm skipping words17:55
xrogaanIt's an undocumented behavior, that is unless you already know how dhcp works you'll have no clue as to where to look.17:56
KatolaZxrogaan: that's my point17:56
KatolaZif you want to fiddle with config, you have to know/learn what to do17:57
KatolaZthere is no other way around that17:57
xrogaanIf a software does something, it should be explain in the documentation.17:57
KatolaZxrogaan: o_O17:57
KatolaZare yoyu implying that before changing your ntp config you should know about all the daemons that can interact with it?17:58
KatolaZI totallu agree17:58
xrogaan/usr/share/doc/isc-dhcp-client/ < no mention of what it does exists in that folder.17:58
KatolaZif you don't, then you should not touch anything :)17:58
KatolaZxrogaan: what it does is in the dhclient.conf file17:58
KatolaZthe options are explainet in dhcp-config(5)17:58
xrogaanI spent hours searching the issue before finding a lone message in a forum saying it's undocumented.17:58
KatolaZwhat is undocumented?17:59
xrogaan<KatolaZ> xrogaan: I don't see how ntp is related to dhcp, sorry17:59
KatolaZxrogaan: you were talking about setting DNS, right?17:59
xrogaanI don't see why I should learn dhcp in order to configure my ntp stuff.17:59
KatolaZthen you jumepd to NTP17:59
gnarfaceoh it's all coming back to me now18:00
gnarfacethere were a bunch of these proprietary dns extensions18:00
gnarfacethe default dhcp client had flags to not ask18:00
KatolaZgnarface: ntp servers is not a dns extensions18:00
gnarfacethe microsoft dhcp servers would send the data even if you didn't ask18:00
KatolaZit's a DHCP one18:00
gnarfacethen the default dhcp client would accept them and there was no way to stop it18:01
gnarfaceso i switched to the other dhcp client18:01
xrogaanThe fucking dhcp client governs the DNS server, takes them from the router. At the same time, it governs the NTP servers. And that behavior isn't documented, ie. "if you want to set a custom dns/ntp here is what you should do". It's a total vacuum, the user is expected to know how dhcp works in order to set up their ntp client.18:01
gnarfacewhich was much more complicated, but allowed me to do what i needed (which also involved some vpn stuff probably)18:01
KatolaZxrogaan: you should know what dhcp does before running it18:01
KatolaZif you don't, you accept the default behaviour18:01
xrogaanI don't have a choice, it's installed by default.18:01
KatolaZsys administration is not a part-time activity where you can take one piece and forget the rest of the cake :)18:02
xrogaanWhy is there any doc for the distro then?18:02
gnarfacexrogaan: apt-cache search ^dhcp.*client18:02
xrogaanGet rid of the wiki and all that shit and let people learn everything on their own.18:02
gnarfacexrogaan: just pick a different one and move on with your life18:02
KatolaZxrogaan: you are missing the point, IMHO18:03
Evilhamyou can even pass SMTP and POP servers over DHCP:
xrogaanI don't.18:03
KatolaZyou can pass EVERYTHING via dhcp18:03
KatolaZeven if you don't pass a dns server at all18:03
Evilhamhehe, we were thinking the same KatolaZ18:04
Evilhamin most cases, uses do want this kind of magic18:04
KatolaZfiddling with system configuration requires knowing how the system works as a whole, or being ready to learn about it in the process18:04
Evilhamand if you don't, it's up to you to disable all that18:04
xrogaanI don't care, the default dhclient configuration is not documented. It's a rogue behavior.18:04
KatolaZxrogaan: there is no "default" configuration18:05
KatolaZthis is what you are missing18:05
KatolaZif you install the base system alone, you don't get a dhcp client at all18:05
KatolaZyou talk of Devuan as something that has a "default"18:06
KatolaZwhile it has hundreds, if not thousands18:06
KatolaZif you choose a different dhcp client, you will have another default behaviour18:06
* Evilham sent a long message: < >18:06
xrogaan/etc/firefox-esr/firefox-esr.js < this is customized for debian18:07
xrogaanA distro, by nature, define how some software needs to behave.18:08
xrogaanSo people can just install a package and have it working from the get go.18:08
KatolaZxrogaan: have you used a debian distro before devuan?18:09
KatolaZthis is not SCO UNIX18:09
KatolaZneither AIX18:09
xrogaanSomebody wrote that dhclient.conf, it didn't come from nowhere.18:09
KatolaZwhat is misleading is that through tasksel you have what looks like a "default selection" of packages18:10
KatolaZbut that's a pretty recent thing18:10
KatolaZthe essence of debian-based distros has always been the ability to switch components at your will18:10
xrogaanbeside the point18:11
KatolaZthere are at least 5/6 different dhclient implementations in debian18:11
xrogaansomebody wrote that dhclient.conf, behavior changed and now people tell you to chattr +a /etc/resolv.conf18:12
KatolaZxrogaan: what changed when exactly?18:13
xrogaanThat I don't know.18:13
KatolaZxrogaan: by default, dhcp clients mess up with /etc/resolv.conf18:14
KatolaZthis is not new18:14
KatolaZif you want to use any dhcp client *and* force your dns servers, either you fiddle with whatever is the config of the dhcp client you have chosen to use18:14
KatolaZor you avoid resolv.conf from being written by the dhcp client18:15
KatolaZthe first option is not what most users normally want, especially if they move around different networks18:15
KatolaZsince most public networks impose local DNS servers18:16
xrogaanI don't care about any of that.18:16
Nematocystif your resolv.conf is getting clobbered by something, you need to figure out what is modifying it, and configure that properly.  better than making it readonly, if only to eliminate unforseen issues. none of this is devuan related18:16
xrogaanYeah, that's what I did.18:16
KatolaZNematocyst: there are cases when you know exactly what is clobbering your resolv.conf, and still you prefer to chattr +a /etc/resolv.conf18:17
KatolaZwhich is what I do18:17
xrogaanI believe the behavior changed in jessie18:18
KatolaZsince chattr -a /etc/resolv.conf is much easier than remembering which option should be changed according to which dhclient is running on the current machine18:18
KatolaZjust a matter of preference18:18
xrogaanTo have dhcp govern everything network. Again, debian's wiki doesn't say anything about that.18:18
EvilhamI just ran man interfaces18:20
Evilhamand it talks about this18:21
Evilhamit's no hidden information, it may be surprising if you are not familiar with it, but that's pretty much how it works, you are free not to use DHCP, IIRC the installer asks if you want to use it or not18:21
xrogaan do not18:21
Evilhamand most people do want that18:21
emdetei use a handcrafted script to replace `/sbin/resolvconf` to fire the current nameserver into dnsmasq via dbus. this works quite good18:22
KatolaZyeah emdete18:22
KatolaZand there are probably one hundred or more other custom solutions around :)18:22
Evilhamit does say "consult man interfaces" and it assumes you know how DHCP works, what is it *exactly* that you want? :-D18:24
KatolaZand it also says "There are different DHCP client packages around. The default for Debian seems to be dhcp-client."18:24
Evilhamthe default behaviour is to ask on installation, you are free to setup the network manually at that stage, you can override everything, you can do very fancy things (e.g. IIRC opennebula does very ugly things that work)18:24
xrogaanAlright, found the answer that helped me figure out NTP
xrogaanImportant part: "This is hard to debug if not known because the service configuration in '/etc/ntp.conf' is left untouched and is correct on visual inspection. However it is actually ignored and overridden stealthy."18:27
xrogaan"stealthy" is the problem here. It shouldn't behave that way.18:28
xrogaan> "This is all undocumented, unexpected and hard to debug behavior. That caused me quite the headache today which is why I am documenting this in here."18:29
xrogaanIf I have a ntp.conf, I expect my system to use it. But it doesn't.18:31
xrogaanWhy? The fuck knows.18:31
unixmanWTH thought ignoring /etc/ntp.conf is a good idea? That's crap.18:31
KatolaZunixman: ntp.conf is the configuration for ntp *serverrs*18:33
KatolaZthe problem here is with an ntp *client*18:33
unixmanIf'n I thinked it were a gud idear to run ntpd, then nothing else should touch that.18:33
unixmanSo, ntpdate?18:34
KatolaZagain, /etc/ntp.conf is the conf for ntp *server*18:34
KatolaZnot ntp *client*18:34
unixmanWhich client?18:34
KatolaZI am off18:35
unixmanAlso, ntpd is run often just to set the clocks on servers, not provide a service.18:35
KatolaZunixman: and, you don't run dhclient on a server, normally, right?18:36
gnarfacentpd is both the server and the client18:36
gnarfacelike quake318:36
KatolaZyes gnarface, but the problem is with the ntp client getting servers set via dhcp18:37
unixmanSo, why was /etc/ntp.conf mentioned? I guess I need to read futher back in the scrollback.18:37
gnarfaceunixman: xrogaan is getting stuff from his dhcp server he doesn't want18:38
gnarfaceunixman: (and he doesn't control it)18:38
unixmanYeah, I see that now.18:38
unixmanI just saw "<xrogaan> Alright, found the answer that helped me figure out NTP ..." and didn't go back far enough. Mea culpa.18:39
Evilham<KatolaZ "unixman: and, you don't run dhcl"> open nebula abuses dhcp to setup VMs IIRC18:39
Evilhamif you have a big enough physical network, you also want that and SLAAC to work18:39
Evilhamor else you turn crazy :-D18:40
KatolaZyeah I know Evilham18:40
xrogaanI mean, if the dhcp script dropped a line in the logs saying "overriding ntp.conf", it would also been fine.18:47
xrogaanIt's kind of why we have logs.18:48
gnarfaceyou should know that man pages are your friends18:48
gnarfaceand there is every possibility that it might have done that, if the logging verbosity was turned up enough18:48
gnarfacei don't know, so i know you don't either18:49
gnarfaceand fyi the daemons all log to /var/log/daemon.log by default18:49
xrogaanhow do you turn up the verbosity of ntp.conf being ignored?18:49
gnarfacethe dhcp daemon18:50
xrogaanif I know it's the dhcp daemon, I don't need to logs18:50
unixmanIt's probably a matter of knowing that DHCP can do that, then being suspicious enough to look into it. However, in my company everyone suspects DNS first, which is rarely the problem, and sends e-mail to the DNS admin (me) about totally unrelated problems. :)18:53
therion23before i make a fool of myself, i'd better ask - was installing ascii on a Pi Zero and it does not see the internal wlan interface .. what am i missing?19:04
ErRandirI may be wrong but AFAIK the Zero W has wireless, the plain Zero does not20:31
therion23ErRandir: absolutely correct .. and it's that wireless i need to "pick up" so to speak22:53
therion23be it a loadable overlay or whatnot22:53
therion23it is probably something trivial, just cannot think of what it possibly can be, you know22:55

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