libera/#devuan/ Saturday, 2019-04-27

specingIf I wanted to make packages of a program, such that multiple such packages can be installed simultaneously in e.g. /opt/program/version/, where do I look for instructions?01:08
rwpspecing, Probably no instructions available.  But there are examples available.  Such as how RHEL/CentOS packages version /usr/share/doc directories and so forth.  Such as how Debian packages put the version in the package name and so forth.01:34
rwpFor one put the version in the package name.  To make the package name unique.01:34
rwpFor another ensure that every file in the package is in a unique file path with no overlap with another version of the package.01:35
specingrwp: I would like to transfer my Gentoo ebuilds that are already multi slot to devuan01:35
rwpNot being a Gentoo user I don't know what multi slot means here.  But I will cheer you on from the sidelines. :-)01:36
rwpIf you are putting files into /opt or /usr/local then there is no requirement to package it.  And in fact it may be simpler to just "unpack a tar file" there instead.01:37
rwpAlso are you aware of GNU Stow?  It is very useful in this topic space too.01:37
specingmulti slot means the same package installs into multiple slots01:38
specingslots is just a package manager thingie01:38
specingbut it means you can have multiple installed simultaneously and updates within slots01:38
specinge.g. python 2 slot and python 3 slot01:38
rwpDoes that use PATH or some other method of selecting one versus another?01:39
specingrwp: I am putting files into opt to not pollute /usr with packages where everything is under the same directory01:39
specingthe latter was easy mode slotting01:39
specingrwp: no, normal version numbers in dependencies01:39
specingrwp: if >=2 is in dependencies, then either is ok01:40
rwpPutting things into /opt is fine.  No problem for you putting things there at all.01:40
rwpapt and dpkg won't be able to handle two packages of the same name (and the same architecture) installed at the same time.01:41
rwpIt would be possible to create a new architecture and use the multi-arch support to install a parallel dependency tree using another arch.  But then there would be no sharing of anything.01:41
specingokay, so I just put version into package name and call it a day?01:41
rwpSo while I mention multi-arch, because it is similar, I don't think it will do what you want.01:41
rwpIf you want to keep it in a package then I think the package must have a unique name, usually by adding a version number to it.01:42
rwpLook for one example at php5 versus php7.0 versus php7.2.01:42
rwpOr look at linux-image-4.9.0-8-amd64 versus linux-image-4.9.0-3-amd64 and so forth.01:43
specing> looking at php for an example of how to do things01:43
rwpIn order to install multiple versions of the same thing it uses a version'd package name and every file will be uniquely path'd too.01:44
rwpAnother possibility is the Debian Alternatives system.  Since these are different versions of the same thing then it would be possible to use alternatives to select one.01:45
furrywolfphp is usually an example of how NOT to do things.01:47
rwpI hesitated to mention php due to that but my mind went blank of others.  Then I remembered the linux-image package.01:48
rwpBut there are many other examples.  bind9, python3, perl6, mariadb-server-10.1, and so forth.  Lots of examples.01:50
rwpspecing, Not sure what you are packaging.  Perhaps you could tell us why you need multiple versions of whatever installed?01:52
gnarfacespecing: afaik the idea of gentoo "slots" came from disdain for Debian forcing strict naming conventions to accomplish the same thing01:52
gnarfacespecing: but if you look into package version/naming conventions for Debian, the rhyme and reason behind it all includes instructions for how to make multiple versions of the same thing capable of safely cohabitating01:53
specingI need multiple installed as it is a game server hosting games on multiple engine versions01:53
rwpFor me I do like using GNU Stow for a lot of this type of thing.  I install into /usr/local/stow/$foo-$version and then use stow to manage the links into /usr/local/bin/$foo01:53
gnarfacespecing: "put the version in the package name and call it a day" is a dangerously oversimplified way to phrase it, but basically yes, you get the idea.  just make sure you actually follow their rules01:53
rwpFor a game server I would be inclined to say that an lxc or docker container may be the best way to keep each version contained.01:54
rwpOr something else along those lines.  chroot.  Whatever.01:54
gnarfacespecing: (they have character range limits in different parts of the name, before and after the "-" and rules like stuff that can't start with a number... some weird minutia that you can usually get away with violating but will generally sabotage automated builds with the debhelper tools)01:54
specingrwp: I'd use SELinux, but devuan doesen't have it01:55
specingso /o/01:55
gnarfacespecing: (fwiw for game servers i use containers too)01:55
rwpSELinux can restrict but it won't help you run multiple versions.  AFAIUI.01:56
specingrwp: it was meants for the 'contained' comment01:56
gnarfacei like linux-vservers but they were pulled from debian like... before wheezy i think, so you have to build it yourself now.01:57
rwpBut contained in completely different ways.  One has a stick smacking an offender.  The other creates an entire new universe.01:57
gnarfacekindof a pain but they're super nice once you're up and running.  no weird hardware requirements, but almost no virtualization overhead01:57
specingI use LXC right now. Specifically Gentoo inside devuan01:58
rwpgnarface, I wondered why vservers were pulled.  Off the top of your head do you know?01:58
rwpSince you are already using LXC I dare say that would seem to be the best answer.01:59
gnarfacerwp: yea, the native tools weren't debianized, and the debianized tools got pulled due to to lack of maintenance01:59
specingrwp: it is only one Gentoo container having all of the servers inside02:00
specingthe servers share data, so containarising would be difficult02:00
rwpNot to denigrate vservers but I think also LXC at the time was seen as a replacement for them.  But then LXC became rather in need of attention too.  So that may have led to vservers being orphaned and removed.02:01
gnarfacei think qemu-kvm was coming up around then too02:01
gnarfacei don't know much about LXC02:01
gnarfaceit might be similar... para-virtualization?02:02
rwpI am a huge user of kvm via libvirt.  But I'll be the first to admit that is heavy compared to an lxc container.02:02
rwpI think vservers, lxc/lxd, docker, and those have more in similar than in difference.02:02
gnarfaceyea kvm is fine if you have hardware level acceleration support and you're not overbooking your RAM banks.  otherwise it tends to drag hard.02:02
rwpAnd then xen and kvm are in the heavy full virtualization circle.02:03
rwpAnd simpler than vservers, lxc/lxd, docker are chroots that only have a different file system and nothing more.02:03
rwpBut chroots are extremely useful and zero overhead so when they are fine then why not.02:03
rwpI use a lot of chroots too.02:04
Syllini think i missed installing some fonts in my install process? anyone have any tips for these unicode boxy characters?
Syllini'd like them to be their corresponding UTF8 values :)04:12
gnarfaceSyllin: apt-cache search '^ttf-|fonts-'04:16
gnarfaceSyllin: (if that is terminal output, you'll also need to make sure your terminal itself can also handle unicode characters and note that is not actually a common feature, but i recommend rxvt-unicode-256color)04:17
Syllinhm i assumed it had better support these days04:17
Syllini'm using xfce4-terminal juts because thats the first one i found on the system04:18
Syllinbut i've used xterm before04:18
Syllinbut yes, terminal output is also derpy04:18
Syllinworks in xterm!04:18
Syllinwithout changes from me. interesting04:19
gnarfacei started using rxvt-unicode-256color (aka. "urxvt") before any of the others actually had the support for it, but i imagine it will slowly make its way into all the terminals eventually04:20
Syllinpretty crucial these days if you do any application development04:25
Syllinmodern developers love putting fancy prompts and TUI  loading bars, etc04:25
gnarfaceyea, but you'd be surprised how many people using linux aren't developers04:25
gnarface(and you'd probably be horrified at how many of those developers wouldn't know where to start on proper internationalization)04:26
Syllinthat first thing is a pleasant surprise04:46
Syllinglad it has some mainstream usage04:46
Syllincan't beat the price04:46
redrickurxvt has struck me as pretty ideal, ever since I gave up on 'If ASCII was good enough for Isaac Newton, it's good enough for me.'  The Unicode Xterm in De??an is very not bad, too, but rather larger.07:25
xrogaanI'm not a developer. I'm a wanker who happens to know how to code.08:23
sepisoadhow to list services and stop/start/restart them in devuan(ascii)17:02
sepisoadand how to make a service/daemon run at start automatically17:02
sepisoadand where can i find devuan documentation on the offical site?17:03
pitrisssepisoad: devuan uses standard sysv init.. so you can list services by listing correct runlevel directory in /etc17:36
sepisoadI am trying to figure it out, however I am still confused17:38
sepisoadI have installed docker manually (following official docker documentations) on devuan ascii17:38
pitrisseg. ls -la /etc/rc2.d/17:38
sepisoadnow I want an easy solution to start/stop dockerd(docker daemon)17:39
sepisoadpitriss, there are many directories like rc2.d under /etc17:39
pitrissNot sure if docker have sysv init script.. But you will find many articles all around the internet about how to create one17:40
pitrissYeah rc<runlevel>.d :)17:40
sepisoadpitriss, what do these mean?17:41
pitrissS is service started when system enters to this runlevel, K is shutdown of the service.. All these "files" should be symlinks to the scripts in /etc/init.d17:42
sepisoadpitriss, thanks18:02
pitrisssepisoad: you're welcome18:02
sepisoadBTW, where is devuan official documentation?18:03
nemosepisoad: for like... what?18:03
nemosepisoad: it probably overlaps pretty heavily with debian18:03
sepisoadfor everything18:03
nemosepisoad: I mean. it's basically just debian with systemd removed, so only point of variation would be service management18:04
nemoand whatever else the cancer absorbs18:04
nemosepisoad: and hell, for services you could just use as a reference debian pre-systemd18:05
nemoor arch or gentoo or any other init system's documentation18:05
sepisoadgentoo and arch have detailed documentations, maybe I should read those instead18:05
pitrisssepisoad: sysv init is really simple and easy to understand.. Thats why I prefer it over systemd which is bloated and do many things but it doesn't do any of these things correct18:12
nemosepisoad: yeah probably. or debian's ☺18:14
nemosepisoad: I don't think devuan has deviated enough from debian to warrant extensive documentation, but maybe they could crib debian's old sysv documentation for posterity18:14
banisterfiendfurrywolf thanks bro19:24
banisterfiendworks great19:24

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