libera/#devuan/ Sunday, 2019-09-29

gnarfaceeyalroz: yea starcraft2 still works for me in winehq-staging.  performance is garbage without d9vk though (and a couple other associated winetricks to make it work)00:43
gnarfaceymmv (i'm using nvidia)00:43
eyalrozgnarface: Which card are you using?00:49
eyalrozalso - have you tried it with a virtual machine instead?00:50
gnarfaceeyalroz: i have not, and the card is sufficiently ancient that i'm impressed with vulkan->d3d translation tech00:58
gnarface(GeForce GTX 650 Ti Boost)00:58
eyalrozAh. I have a recent GTX 1050 Ti, so maybe it'll work better for me. But... I was disheartened by the i386 dependency troubles.00:58
gnarfacea 2GB card00:58
gnarfaceif you had multi-arch enabled right, then it must be some distro/repo mixing version conflicts, that's all i can suspect00:59
eyalrozI'd probably better not waste time playing it right now anyway, so maybe it's for the best...01:00
gnarfaceor the one other thing is you just don't have any of the dependencies already installed, and they're not in the winehq repo to get.  in that case, what worked for me is to install the wine-development package from the devuan repos then REMOVE it but leave all it's dependencies (they're mostly the same as for winehq-staging)01:00
eyalrozbtw - do you know when is the beowulf release due?01:00
gnarfacei do not.  i don't think there's any official due date yet01:00
eyalrozIsn't that strange, considering Buster has been out for 2 months already?01:01
eyalrozOh, it looks like DebConf20 is supposed to be held in my hometown.01:05
eyalrozThis is bad.01:05
fsmithredjessie was two years late01:05
fsmithredascii was a year late01:05
fsmithredbeowulf is likely to be about six months late (maybe by end of year)01:05
fsmithredunofficial projections ^^^01:06
Simeon2why is that bad eyalroz01:06
Simeon2beowulf 'release' is kind of symbolic, isn't it (it just works here)01:06
eyalrozSimeon2: Because it violates the Palestinian academic and cultural boycott of Israeli institutions, and now,01:07
eyalrozI have to try and protest, and get the Debian bodies to change venue, while undermining some people whom I know and am on somewhat friendly terms with.01:07
eyalrozSimeon2: About the beowulf release - peopel who try Devuan will look at the release version. If it's based on Debian 9, then it's ancient package versions. Debian 10 - tolerably old...01:08
fsmithredgood luck01:08
Simeon2that's a fair point eyalroz re releases01:08
Simeon2and of course it's anyone's right to boycott whatever they want01:09
Simeon2but the politics behind such boycotts is solidly offtopic01:09
eyalrozSimeon2: You mean, for this channel? Ok, sure, I won't open up that discussion here. If anyone wants to say something about it please message me personally.01:11
golinuxOr post on #debianfork01:24
Simeon2eyalroz: i grabbed a package from debian sid that i need for browser update, which isn't yet in beowulf01:24
golinuxeyalroz: ^^^01:25
golinuxLook in ceres - sid01:25
Simeon2 libsqlite3-001:25
Simeon2i grabbed the source packages but dpkg-buidpackage fails for me (have done build-dep)01:25
golinuxAvailable via Devuan repos.01:26
Simeon2oh ceres eh ty01:26
Simeon2goes to show how little i know about devuan01:26
specingCan anyone explain why useradd makes mode 755 home directories?01:27
golinuxNoy I01:27
golinuxNot I01:27
Simeon2should i add experimental to sources.list?  or sed -e 's/beowulf/ceres/g' it?01:31
Simeon2i usually ran with 'sid'01:31
golinuxOnly if you want to test new Devuan packages.  I have used it once or twice01:36
g4570nSimeon2: add ceres repos togheter with ASCII o Beowulf, and then: apt update && apt install libsqlite3-0 -t ceres01:36
Simeon2oh i didn't know -t thanks01:37
golinuxI recommend to NOT mix releases01:37
gnarfacespecing: ancient linux default.  something about inter-user communication stuff (.plan files and such i think)  i change them all to 0700 myself too01:38
golinuxBut then I'm still running jessie01:38
g4570nSimeon2: it's will be an FranksDevuan 😆01:38
gnarfacespecing: sorry, actually ancient *unix* default01:38
gnarfacespecing: this software was originally designed for scientific collaboration on shared mainframes, remember01:38
golinuxgnarface to the rescue01:38
Simeon2i switched an nvidia jetson from ubuntu to devuan without rebooting :)  fun stuf01:38
Simeon2well in the end i did reboot but it werked!01:39
gnarfacespecing: note that "useradd" is part of the generic user/group manipulation set.  i think it's only there for legacy reasons (posix compatibility?) use "adduser" instead.  it's "debianized" and should have some config somewhere that you can change defaults with01:42
gnarface(that's the old "debianized" from before that was a bad thing)01:42
gnarfaceyea, /etc/adduser.conf01:43
gnarfaceeverything is in there, including default permissions01:43
gnarfaceactual base files in /etc/skel/01:43
specingWell.. that is not good, but okay02:10
Simeon2g4570n: i have updated Get:43 ceres/main amd64 Contents (deb) [22.0 kB]  and apt install libsqlite3-0 -t ceres returns libsqlite3-0 is already the newest version (3.27.2-3) (?)02:21
gnarfacespecing: it's probably a good idea to disable remote root login, too02:23
gnarfacebut that does break kerberos02:23
gnarfacewith defaults like that it's probably a lot about what breaks when you change it02:24
g4570nSimeon2: try apt install libsqlite3-0=3.29.0-202:24
Simeon2not found..02:25
* Simeon2 ponders02:25
g4570nchange: repo02:26
g4570nfor ceres02:26
gnarfacespecing: but yea, the default install is totally not secure in a bunch of places.  they do assume a certain level of trust among the users of the machine by default02:27
gnarfacespecing: seriously, disable remote-root login for ssh.  you should probably disable password auth too and just use keys, after the initial setup.02:53
gnarfacespecing: sudo can be a risk too02:53
gnarfacei would advise just not even having it installed unless you really know what you're doing with it02:54
gnarfacethere's actually not a ton to do but there is that02:55
gnarfaceand if you need even further granular security, adding people to something like a generic "video" group isn't ideal because that still gives them access to ALL devices, so you will probably want to create a few groups of your own if this is really a shared system...02:55
gnarface*all video devices, anyway02:56
gnarfacethere's no way to make really secure defaults against stuff like that and be fair to all use cases02:57
gnarfacesome amount of customization is typically required, that's as designed ...02:57
Simeon2good points gnarface ty for info03:35
Simeon2From the 'Problems We Do Not Have' archive - uresolved systemd bug from 2015 unmounts disks immediately after mount:
golinuxSimeon2: systemd chatter belongs on #debianfork  :)04:48
systemdletefree_speech, Digit:  If I may -- and I know that thread is now 15 hours ago, but... -- I think the reason for fixed release distros is that many of us require a certain amount of stability for the application workload on the servers running them.05:55
systemdleteThere is, of course, a tradeoff between ease-of-use and stability.  I acknowledge that.05:55
systemdleteI worked in a brokerage firm and it was a strict requirement that any changes going in to our production system had to first soak in a system test environment, and that could be weeks at a time.  OS upgrades were planned months in advance to ensure that the changes would not break the code that was delivering millions of dollars a minute to traders.  (Which is how I earned a paycheck, by supporting those systems.  Traders,05:57
systemdletefunny way they are, get annoyed quickly by technical problems.)05:57
systemdleteAt home here, I run Devuan as my host OS platform, knowing that if I need to update, say, virtualbox I don't have to worry that some library updates, along with some desktop updates, and who knows what else, will destabilize my system.  I HAVE ACTUALLY HAD THAT HAPPEN.05:58
systemdleteSo I prefer the more conservative approach for my host.  But that doesn't mean that my VMs have to run fixed releases... I can run artix or anti-x in a VM and if that VM has issues with a vbox update, well, it's just vbox and probably just that VM (usually).   For me, it's a way of segregating debugging scenarios (the answer to "what went wrong there?")06:00
systemdleteSo, if you work in one of those types of environments where the user community you are supporting just doesn't have time for you to back out the latest OS update and reboot and recompile stuff, maybe re-link, etc etc etc06:02
systemdleteyou might want to use a fixed release distro.  It's not a sin for me to run a rolling release distro in a VM because anything that goes kabonk is limited to just that region.  It doesn't break every other subsystem and VM (usually).06:03
systemdleteI don't normally run applications directly on the host OS; I run various tools and the like in various VMs, where I have customized those VMs to my particular liking in each case.  Having multiple VMs allows me to quickly switch back and forth as needed.06:05
systemdleteSo, in sum, it is not either-or, right-vs-wrong.  It's applicability to a set of requirements in particular environments.06:06
* systemdlete bows and takes his seat again06:06
* Digit starts reading, n thinks it's all on track with the obvious things to say about that, nods, and presumes the rest carried on likewise06:10
Digitgot a lot of that about at the moment.  heh. sry.  ;]06:10
systemdletejust felt like "weighing in"06:10
free_speechsystemdlete, you _*can*_ rollback rolling release distros if an upgrade breaks anything ... all you need for this is a snapshot-supporting filesystem - in case of a GNU/Linux - distro, BtrFS might be the filesystem of your choice ... in case of a *BSD, it's ZFS06:27
onefangOr if using a VM host that supports it.  I know QEMU can run a base image file and a changes image file.  You can merge the current set of changes to the base, or just zap the changes.06:29
systemdletefree_speech:  How would you know precisely WHAT to roll back though?  If a swarm of new features and (supposed) bug fixes come through at once -- and they usually do -- one might spend hours trying to figure out what changed since the last update, and that can include updated data files created by those upgrades.06:29
systemdleteonefang:  Yes, that works well for VMs.  I often snapshot a VM before applying an upgrade I feel uncertain about.06:30
onefangThen you just answered your own question.  B-)06:31
systemdleteI think there may be tools for doing likewise on the host.  But that isn't the point:  even in the strict environments I have worked in, it was the time element that was crucial.06:31
onefangIt's the same with a snapshot file system, you snapshot before the upgrade, then roll back if it borks.06:31
systemdleteright.  But I have seen situations where an update to data files makes it virtually impossible to go back.  Case in point:  VirtualBox VM disk images.  There have been upgrades where the formats changed a bit and we were warned by their support that an image might become unusable after an update.  And that is regardless of snapshots.06:32
systemdleteI don't recall when that was, but it was several point releases back.06:33
systemdleteYou see, I really don't mind if my host OS doesn't have all the latest bells and whistles.  It is simply a resource manager, and as long as it is still in LTS, fine.06:34
systemdleteI can enjoy dabbling in the latest way-kewl 'wares in VMs.  Which is what I do.06:34
systemdleteAnd keep in mind that even Devuan allows you to add more recent package updates if that is what you want to do.06:35
onefangYep, backports, or adding PPAs.06:36
systemdleteso not a problem06:36
systemdleteHave you looked at some of the other distros like anti-x and artix, or maybe parabola or hyperbola?  They're good and rolling release.  You always have the latest and greatest (and any headaches that go along with those of course).06:37
systemdleteI have found artix to be solid, but anti-x I have had a few issues with.  I think it needs a fresh install.06:37
systemdleteI am updating or rebuilding other things right now, and I really don't have the wherewithal to sit long periods doing all this.06:38
onefangI have a micro-SD card with about 20 distros on it I use for various reasons, that I call magic pixie dust.  It includes some rolling release style distros.06:38
systemdletethose distros I named are all non-systemd06:38
systemdleteI leave my host up 24.  I reboot hardware rarely.  don't need to.06:39
onefangEventually every rolling release distro on it needed a re-install.  lol06:39
systemdleteyes, I have discovered that as well.06:39
onefangI leave my main desktop up all the time to.  Magic Pixie Dust is for use on other systems.06:40
systemdleteImagine those in a serious production environment like a hospital surgery06:40
systemdleteoh I see.06:40
onefangThat's why it's a micro-SD card, I carry it in my wallet, along with a tiny micro-SD to USB converter.06:41
systemdleteI've also run into serious internal incompatibilities with packages on rolling releases.06:41
systemdleteOne distro -- don't recall which now, this was back around 2005? -- applied a system library update to my installation and then broke it.06:42
onefangDevuan is the main distro on Magic Pixie Dust, most of the rest are either specialised, or so I can try out things.06:42
systemdleteI tried numerous things to breathe life back into it, but after a week of feeling very frustrated, partly by the fact that the distro maintainers did not know what the issue was,06:43
systemdleteSo... like you, I ended up re-installing.  Amazingly enough, after I applied the SAME exact updates to the re-install, everything worked fine.  (I think it had to do with the video now that I think of it)06:43
systemdleteClearly, I had reset SOMEthing06:44
systemdleteBut I never figured out what that thing was.06:44
systemdleteI'm not a fixed-release bigot, honestly.  Some of my favorite distros are rolling release.  No, really.06:45
free_speechI am a strict fixed-release bigot when it comes to running a Server ... imagine a rolling release on a server and any upgrade breaks anything relevant for the server's purposes ...06:56
free_speechif you know what I intend to express :-)06:57
onefangDevuan stable on servers where I have a choice.  B-)06:57
free_speechI ordered a server some days ago and will pay my first fee on tuesday ... the server is shutdown at the moment since there's a Debian installed by default ... I'll switch it to Devuan then :-)06:59
free_speechsystemd on a server is even more a sin than systemd on a workstation06:59
XenguyNew install of ascii on a new laptop here07:16
XenguySo far so good07:16
XenguyTakes awhile to rebuild everything07:17
XenguyI tried an olde trick that used to work, but I got errors this time:  dpgk set-selections < somefile.txt07:18
XenguySo currently just going through the list and cherrypicking software to install07:18
free_speechXenguy, how about apt install $(cat somefile.txt) ?07:30
free_speechhowever ... my current timezone is UTC+0200 ... let me have my breakfast coffee and my breakfast nicotine first :-)07:32
Xenguyfree_speech: No idea, but thanks for the suggestion07:33
XenguyIt always bothers me when tried and true methods don't work, but I may have screwed it up somehow07:34
XenguyIt doesn't really matter as per the perlmongers saying, TMTOWTDI (there's more than one way to do it), especially with Linux07:35
onefangWhat?  No breakfast, er, breakfast?  Breaking a fast, eating food coz you just spent the last eight hours fasting, coz you where sleeping.  B-)07:35
Simoen2woo that was a bit interesting (beowulf->ceres)10:24
Simoen2kernel 5.2 seems to lack nvidia modules10:25
Simoen2back on 4.19.0-6 and nvidia-legaxy-390xx, but xorg has huge cpu use10:25
Simoen2fun fun :)10:25
irssi3RMS is gone?11:16
onefangMaybe he went to #debianfork?  Try looking for him there.11:17
irssi3he quit the FSF11:17
onefang(In other words, this is the support channel, #debianfork is the discussion channel.  Please have your off topic discussions there instead of here.  Thank you.)11:18
irssi3seems everyone is happy about it11:18
irssi3you linux assholes are scum11:18
jellyonefang: they've done this schtick on #debian as well, best ignore them11:21
irssi3jelly: you're with debian against RMS now?11:22
irssi3thought this was #devuan11:22
irssi3Debian is like "RMS" "never heard of him"11:23
irssi3I remeber when debian was the most pro RMS place11:24
free_speechno, he did *NOT* quit the FSF ... he stepped back as the LEADER of the FSF ... that's a difference11:26
Wonka.oO( the version number tag is "dfsg", not "trueRMS" )11:26
irssi3he quit because some woman complained11:26
irssi3I thought he was a Jew, not an American11:27
free_speechas the leader he quit ... as an fsf member he didn't11:27
irssi3he's acting like an American male11:27
irssi3"oh yes mam, I respect you, yes mam"11:27
irssi3"oh, sorry, I made an international movement, I apologize, here, you have it: even the most accomplished man is less than you, oh great american woman"11:28
irssi3200 years of this11:28
trucyYeah, that's why woman have the right to vote only for a century or so depending on the country.11:29
WonkaI propose to stop feeding the troll.11:31
irssi3trucy: americans have always deffered to women11:31
irssi3because they are scum11:31
trucyWonka: agreed11:31
irssi3"troll": anything I disagree with, or am afraid to agree with11:31
irssi3Islam will win, thank God.11:32
jellythis kind of troll goes for enraging people on the front, but the goal is getting impressionable people to question or implicitly accept at least _a tiny bit_ of their absurd stances (be it vaguely or explicitely chauvinist, antisemitic, amusingly also antiislamic, or whatever)11:33
irssi3I'm not anti-islamic, idiot11:34
irssi3I know the hadiths etc11:34
trucyYup, they go for inceptionning ideas11:34
irssi3and I agree with them.11:34
irssi3you know different religions actually believe different things.11:35
irssi3you would know that if you bothered to study any language other than english11:35
irssi3but you people are mono-lingual so you only have one way of relating concepts to eachother: one way of thinking11:36
irssi3I'd rather be fighting with #debian right now than the superior #devuan however.11:36
free_speechfor discussing about the RMS-topic I guess you might want to join #debianfork or optionally ##rms11:36
* onefang wanders into the kitchen to feed himself instead of the troll. It's dinner time.11:37
irssi3onefang: these talking points are really ment for #debian11:40
irssi3but they banned me the second I said RMS11:40
irssi3they seem to hate him11:40
jellyno, we just hate obvious trolls11:42
free_speechhe's not online anymore ... he "lost terminal" :-D11:45
onefangAwww, diddums.11:46
Humpelst1lzchenroot mean square?11:51
free_speechwas? whoops, I mean ... what?11:51
onefangYeah, Root Mean Square used to be the prime number for the Fourier Sequential Functions.11:52
free_speechI have no idea what you're talking about, but ... I believe you. :-)11:53
jelly> Root-mean-square (rms) refers to the most common mathematical method of defining the effective voltage or current of an AC wave.11:55
onefangAnd Fourier Sequential Functions (FSF) was my poor attempt to keep that punny little joke going.  Meh, I'm a programmer, not a mathematician.  I do software, not hardware.11:57
jellywhen your power provider says they're giving you 110V 60Hz AC, that's 110V RMS.  peaks are higher.  Please don't connect old bearded nerd RMS to this RMS.12:00
free_speechokaaayy ... when it comes to electronic, I'm pretty much out. Learned much stuff about it, but I also forgot a lot. :-)12:00
free_speechMy power provider says they're giving me 230V 50Hz AC ... :-) I'm in europe :-)12:02
onefangAnd please don't connect anything designed for 110 V to a power socket in my country.  Or you might have a flamin' troll on your hands.12:02
free_speechI'll now try to connect RPi directly to 230V power socket ^^12:07
free_speech( without any converter or other hardware acting as "MITM" )12:08
onefangYou'll be able to run Devuan Mercury on it.12:09
james1138Not strictly Devuan but since Debian news - maybe important to some: How to Mount an exFAT Drive on Debian Linux /
golinuxjames1138: That is what #debianfork is for17:45
DonkeyHoteibut wouldn't that info apply equally to devuan?17:45
yetimaybe #debianfork should be #devuan-chat to make this a byte more obvious17:46
fsmithreda couple people were askiing for help mounting exfat a few weeks ago17:58
buZzexfat specs seems to finally have opened enough for a driver to come 'eventually'18:04
buZzhehe these benchmarks :D
debdogfsmithred: that was me. if the solution would have been that easy, it would  not have been a problem. just cannot recall, what exactly the issue was. some kind of bug preventing ordinary users from mounting exfat.18:11
debdogmight have been fixed in newer debian/devuan versions18:12
fsmithredI think it is fixed somewhere new. Weren't you patching mount or something like that?18:14
buZzafaik fuser can be used as user just fine?18:15
debdogbuZz: the important part was "bug"18:15
buZz'some kind of bug' could just have been 'user does something wrong' ;)18:16
buZzi havent seen a exfat drive in my life though18:16
debdogfsmithred: right, now that you mention it. I've had to compile mount.exfat-fuse18:16
debdogbuZz: yah, buying that sony cam was a mistake, not only regarding exfat18:17
buZzone of those alpha cams?18:18
james1138Heads up. Full Circle Magazine newest issue just came out - and has a article about Devuan (page 44):
buZzhehe a ubuntu magazine? :)18:19
buZzDeVuan ? wut18:19
buZzit seems to focus mostly on 'what is XFCE' :P lol18:21
debdogbuZz: some cheapish compact cam
buZzcant you just use USB to copy the photos without exfat?18:27
debdogthe cam's fs is exfat. and the other thingy Msomethingsomething protocol did not work either18:27
buZzsad :(18:28
debdoghehe, yah18:28
buZzi'm happy with my Xiaomi Mijia 4k mini18:29
buZzsimple gopro clone , 4k 30fps18:29
debdoghaha, how do you pronounce that?18:29
buZz720p 240fps18:29
buZzchow-me me-ya18:29
buZzsame price though :)18:32
james1138Debdog: if it helps, to enable exfat on Devuan, it is suggested to open your terminal and install the exfat-fuse and exfat-utils packages using the following commands:18:36
james1138sudo apt install exfat-fuse exfat-utils18:36
debdogjames1138: please stop!18:36
debdogthanks for trying, though ;)18:36
debdogI hope I have not offended him18:37
buZzdebdog: you dont ;)18:44
Human_G33kthere is some doc for migration from stable to testing ?19:26
g4570nHuman_G33k: Tips for successfully migrating Ascii DE to Beowulf as of 11-08-2018:
Human_G33kthx g4570n19:49
james1138General Devuan question. Anyone know of where to find additional background wallpaper with the Devuan wording and/or logo please???20:24
buZzafaik golinux made a devuan wallpapers package once20:30
buZznot sure where it is20:30
yetiapt-cache search cinnabar # devuan320:35
yetisearch purpy for devuan220:36
james1138I found the one golinux made -
buZzyes! thats the one20:37
buZzcool james1138 , are you happy with them? :)20:37
james1138Yes. The ones for Jessie look really nice.20:37
james1138Just found these also - neat! Looking for more
buZzjames1138: maybe follow the links? seems to have many20:48
buZzsome of these seriously hurt my eyes, lol20:49
james1138Thanx BuZz!  The one with the guitar was a bit strange...  <grin>20:51
james1138The space "plasma" one is really nice. Just need change my desktop icons so that I can see them again instead of blending into the darkness.20:53
james1138BuZz: I think I found a winner for my Devuan background - thanks again:
buZzoh nice one21:03
buZzbit weird logo though :P21:03
james1138I kinda like the space/star system look.21:06
james1138Back later. Laundry needs done.21:33
free_rabbiti like to install a graphical disk encryption mask on a exixting installation. i tried plymouth, but it isnt in the devuan repos. any suggestions?23:35

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