libera/#devuan/ Friday, 2019-10-18

Centurion_DanSo I upgraded my laptop to beowulf, and I like it a lot.  Everything works.  All my work to support grub themes finally has paid off as beowulf finally has grub theme support making it look real sweet at the bootloader, and xfce4 doesn't barf whenever I change plugin/unplug monitors.  The only thing it's missing is support for monitor profiles which is in the next release of xfce4.09:39
Centurion_Danoverall I'm really impressed with the monitor.09:40
Centurion_Dans/monitor/beowulf upgrade/09:40
blstrbdo you put ntpdate -b in /etc/rc.local?13:25
r3bootdepends. If ntpd is already running by then, you cannot allocate src port 123, and ntpdate will fail13:26
blstrbinstalling ntpdate doesn't put a startup in /etc/rc2.d (my default runlevel)13:28
r3bootCorrect, since ntpdate is meant to run just once. Normally, you'd run ntpd which will keep time time in sync13:28
blstrbi don't seem to have ntpd13:29
blstrbntpdate - client for setting system time from NTP servers (deprecated)13:29
blstrbwhat should i install instead?13:29
r3bootntp; once that's installed, configure /etc/ntp.conf with 4 NTP servers (stick to <yourcountrycode>, and keep that running in the background.13:31
r3bootthat will keep your time in sync; with ntpdate, you will need to run it from cron to keep your machine synced over time13:32
r3bootbut, dont deinstall ntpdate, since you need that to solve a minor inconvenience with ntp, namely, that it will doe stepping if your time is off, while ntpdate -b will force the time to the current NTP time13:32
r3bootEg, normal operation: run ntpd; To fix a large time offset, stop ntpd, ntpdate -b, start ntpd13:33
r3bootblstrb: see as an example for ntp.conf13:36
blstrbthanks r3boot13:39
blstrbi still have habits from the 80s and 90s13:43
r3bootghe :)13:43
* r3boot was an ntp operator for approx 15yrs, but gave up after reflection became a hot new thing (again)13:43
blstrbwhat amount of clock drift will break https for browser?13:47
blstrbthis is really offtopic but you might know offhand13:47
r3bootafaik thats somewhere between 1hr and 24hrs, depending on the browser. But systems that clockdrift that much usually have hardware issues which need to be solved13:48
r3bootnot that it really matters, worse case you can ntpdate this13:48
r3bootI used to have this AlphaServer which had a rotten RTC, and it would run 1.2s in the time where reality runs in 1s. ntpd was not able to keep up with it, but * * * * * /usr/sbin/ntpdate -b in cron fixed that more or less13:49
r3bootnasty, and eventually I replaced this box for something better13:49
r3bootOn x86(_64) I havent seen a lot of issues in the last 10yrs or so (got experience with dell/hp/lenovo servers)13:50
blstrbmy company moved the business logic from 300 pcs to one alpha server emulating x86 and it ran like 20x faster13:50
r3boothehehe, sounds expected :)13:50
r3bootAlpha can be fast, if your compilers can generate proper code for it13:51
r3boot.. and that already exludes gcc for most part :/13:51
avboxFYI, there is a new AVMultimedia release, it is kernel 5.3.6 based. Supports now bluetooth and was widely tested on intel compute stick (BOXSTK1AW32SC). Setup in 20 to 30 seconds, on fast machines even in 10 seconds. If you have questions, just ask.18:41
EHeMThe situation with the Apache2 packages is kind of serious given how that is a *security* issue...19:24
buZzwhats the context?19:25
EHeMAll of the amd64 variants of deb9u9 are missing.19:27
masonRandom note for anyone mucking with custom installs - my early ZOL 0.8 builds were using elilo, but it turns out that the kernel Debian ships is happy being an EFI stub, so now I'm booting a native-encrypted, TRIM-capable ZFS mirror as root, without bothering with a bootloader at alll.19:29
EHeM strictly reports information from amd64, so if you've got a amd64 machine which also loads the i386 repositories it will report wanting to upgrade apache2-data; guessing that is due to apache2-data being all and thus the deb9u9 package from the i386 repository looks acceptable.19:29
buZzEHeM: are you talking about buster?19:32
EHeMbuZz: Ascii/stable.19:32
buZzoh ok19:33
buZzyou could pull the newer ones from backports it seems?19:33
buZzoh thats just some libs, nmind19:33
EHeMI wonder whether the core of people remaining with current Debian would be up for the task of trying to push various packages to start making use of `libtool` and making libraries optional, it is extremely difficult to setup a full desktop with graphics without installing *both* libmysql and libpq since many chains of library dependancies eventually pull both in.19:41
EHeMOn servers often more than 50% of installed packages are libraries which `libtool` could change to recommended instead of depends.19:44
buZzEHeM: there is 'equivs' to prevent installing deps you dont want19:46
EHeMbuZz: Doesn't work for most libraries as the program needs to be using dlopen()/dlclose()/dlsym() instead of doing normal linking.19:47
furrywolfpersonally, I'd like to see a change to how programs are written in general to make most libraries optional, as long as you don't need the feature the library provides.  that is, at runtime missing libraries are ignored rather than causing the program not to load, then the program later checks to see if a library was loaded before trying to use functions it provides.19:49
buZzEHeM: hmhm19:50
djphfurrywolf: usually you do stuff like that at compile time19:55
furrywolfthis is something that's already doable with loading libraries at runtime, but it's annoying enough that no one does it.19:55
furrywolfdjph:  yes, I know what you usually do.  that's why I said it would be a _change_.  :P19:56
djphfurrywolf: but we already have a system that works19:56
djphfurrywolf: don't you go try systemd-ifying compilation now too19:56
furrywolftry loading the library at runtime instead of directly linking against it, then replace all your #ifdefs with-foo with if(isloaded(foo)) type checks...19:57
furrywolfwe have a system that makes you install libpulse to run gimp.19:57
furrywolfthe system clearly has room for improvement.  :)19:57
djphwell, anything that installs pulse has room for improvement19:58
furrywolfvery true.  but in this case, it's a program with absolutely no audio support or awareness whatsoever, that ends up requiring it through a library that uses a library type thing.19:59
furrywolfI suspect that less than 50% of library dependencies ever have a single function used from them on any given install.20:00
EHeMfurrywolf: More like in 75% of installs the given library is never called, but it is loaded due to the runtime linker.21:36
EHeMfurrywolf: The mechanism already exists, dlopen()/dlsym()/dlclose(), problem is it is something of a pain to use (libtool tries to take care of the worst issues) and thus many developers never bother.21:37
EHeMNotably some systems the standard is include an underscore prefix on symbols, which means on those systems you need dlsym(handle, "_XGetXCBConnection") instead of dlsym(handle, "XGetXCBConnection").21:39
EHeMSome systems/runtime will call the function _init when the given dynamic object is loaded, other systems call it something else, use a different prototype or may not call any function when the object is loaded.21:41
EHeMUnix's handling of libraries is less than wonderful (most other OSes you do a LoadLibrary() or such, then GetSymbol(), whereas Unix most libraries are statically linked as the last build step).21:43
_abc_I see more and more google sabotaging firefox esr as used in devuan. Anyone else seeing this too? I have 60.9.0esr and I have problems with captcha all the time lately. Even yahoo uses google captcha now.22:18
specingperhaps you should reduce your reliance on sites relying on google22:21
specingand google probably sabotages all firefox versions22:21
_abc_I do not rely on google at all but they get to use google more and more22:21
specingthey have their own browser to prioritise22:21
_abc_Indeed. And that's more than slightly illegal.22:22
_abc_Especially in Europe afaik.22:22
_abc_ example. I have a yahoo id because I am a member of the parent group LTSpice, but I can't even see the captcha being created when I try to join that subgroup.22:23
_abc_It says "Captcha Creation Failed" in red font.22:23
_abc_I just checked I have the highest version of ff esr available in ascii22:23
EHeM_abc_: I'm not certain it is deliberate sabotage, so much as wanting to use the latest and greatest features in Chrome, but aren't yet in Firefox or don't even have a written standard.22:23
golinuxI have not seen a captcha in a very long time.22:24
_abc_Strange, they are everywhere.22:25
EHeMgolinux: You don't have any web browser on your system, merely NNTP and an e-mail client?22:25
_abc_The new "do nothing" captcha is particularly obnoxious, it uses google access records to qualify the user as human. No google access, not human. Really?22:25
_abc_I use duck and google and a few other things alternately and all with js and tracking off.22:26
specingthe new "do nothing" captcha is using human labour to train their waymo AI22:26
EHeMOften I use `Lynx` when in need of a search engine.22:26
_abc_As a result I assume my "footprint" does not exist unless they collate browser data across sessions.22:26
_abc_specing: really? How the heck?22:27
specingsomething needs to be done about cookies22:27
specingis there a "noscript" for cookies?22:27
EHeM`ln -s /dev/null cookies.txt`22:27
specing_abc_: easy, you check "I am human", then you get to pick tiles with street signs in them22:27
_abc_I don't even get that far.22:27
EHeM/dev/null can store *millions* of cookies.22:28
_abc_I have clean cookies at session end enabled.22:28
specing_abc_: do you close ff very often?22:29
specing> And that's more than slightly illegal.22:30
specingTakes years to prove in court and the fines are pennies22:30
golinuxEHeM: Chromium, FF and palemoon22:46
avboxDoes someone know how to switch from LineIn to Speaker in pulseaudio via command line?22:47
_abc_specing: In Europe it's sort of built in that such things are illegal.22:47
_abc_specing: the equivalent of a US class action suit, massive, on behalf of about 300 million people at once.22:47
_abc_Even if each gets $10 payout they'll think twice before trying again.22:48
_abc_And yes I close ff at least several times per day. Sometimes deliberately.22:49

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