libera/#devuan/ Tuesday, 2020-09-29

xrogaanApparently, the popcon email was defunct the 14 and 15 September.00:28
xrogaanI got 'Mail delivery failed' message for survey@popcon.devuan.org00:31
sinned6915i just installed devuan and am confused about a couple of things08:50
JorilHi! Such as?08:51
sinned6915the sytem seem to into sleep mode and i can not get it out08:52
sinned6915i installed beowolf and the xde desktop08:52
sinned6915nothing i do brings back the desktop08:53
sinned6915and when i try to update or uprade a package, i get warnings.. sec for actual verbage08:53
gnarfacesinned6915: just guessing but your /etc/apt/sources.list is probably wrong (the usual mistake at this phase)08:56
gnarfacesinned6915: after you get it to update right, it might sleep properly but not all drivers and hardware is known to wake reliably or properly from sleep, unfortunately this is something vendors typically skimp on in their Linux support08:57
sinned6915i updated my sources file per the readme on teh devuan website08:58
gnarfacesinned6915: ...and while beowulf-backports has a newer kernel and drivers you can try, in many cases that hasn't fixed sleep on nvidia hardware for me so you very likely might have to disable sleep08:58
sinned6915is beowolf too new ?08:58
sinned6915should i have installed the other  one?08:59
gnarfacesinned6915: no, but there is outdated info about the sources.list floating around.  paste yours at or just /msg it to me if you want me to proofread it for you08:59
sinned6915i am seakerneting09:00
gnarfacehere is a current example that will include non-free stuff like nvidia drivers09:00
gnarfaceif you just want core components you can safely omit "contrib" and "non-free" as long as you omit it from every line09:01
gnarfaceif you put auto.mirror.* in your source.list you followed the outdated info09:02
gnarfacesources.list, i mean09:02
sinned6915is my sources09:04
gnarfaceyea that's notgonna work09:04
gnarfacecompare it to mine and you should easily see why09:05
gnarfaceyou have beowulf-security and beowulf-updates but not beowulf itself09:05
gnarfacealso you have beowulf-security twice09:05
gnarfacebut that won't matter09:05
sinned6915yes, i see the differences09:06
sinned6915the main thing i wanted to do was use gcc to compile some things09:06
sinned6915i am usually on windows machine, and wanted to move that off of it09:07
gnarfacethat's fine.  you'll be able to do that.  delete your whole sources.list and replace it with this, then try again:
gnarface"apt-get update && apt-get upgrade"09:08
sinned6915but when i try to use  make -> command not found09:08
gnarfacelisten, you need to stay on task09:08
gnarfacefinish the update, then you can install anything you want, including make09:08
gnarfacenothing will work right until that09:09
sinned6915and when i try to find it, as in using which, i get no respsonse09:09
gnarface"which" only works for already-installed programs09:09
gnarfaceyou would want "apt-cache search [pattern]" but that's getting ahead of yourself09:09
gnarfacefinish the update09:09
sinned6915i see that gcc and gcc tools are installed via the symaptic packge manage09:09
gnarfacethere are multiple choices of package manager09:09
sinned6915i am used to apt09:10
sinned6915or i should say, more used to09:10
gnarfaceit is not expected for the developers tools to all be in one package09:10
gnarfacethere is a meta-package called "build-essential" that you can install which will get most but not all of them09:10
gnarface"make" would have been installed with the "standard system utilities" option from the tasksel phase of the installer though fyi09:11
sinned6915ok, iwill check for that09:11
sinned6915do you use xrdp?09:11
gnarfacenone of that really matters now, you have to get the upgrade completed before you start doing stuff09:11
sinned6915oh , sorry.09:11
gnarfaceand, no, i use vnc when i need a remote desktop, and i would advise you to do the same09:12
sinned6915i did change my sources to the first past you gave09:12
sinned6915and updated and upgraded already09:12
gnarfaceinstall build-essential then too09:12
gnarfaceshould get most of what you're missing from the development tools but sometimes things get forgotten09:12
sinned6915i considered vnc,09:12
gnarfacesince you mentioned you're a Windows refugee, i should tell you that most the time you won't really need more than ssh09:13
sinned6915but after some searching thought xrdp might be simperl09:13
gnarfacemeh, simpler if you have to connect to a windows machine someone else already configured as a rdp host maybe09:13
sinned6915more like a windows convict09:13
sinned6915no, i want to connect from windows to devuan09:14
gnarfaceoh, hmmm09:14
gnarfaceyea i would say go with VNC09:14
gnarfacebut that's because i already know how to set it up and i assume the xrdp setup would be worse09:14
sinned6915ok, will try taht then09:14
gnarfacebut i guess i honestly don't know09:14
gnarfacealso, doesn't xrdp only support 8-bit color?09:15
gnarfaceit's been a few years since i had to use it09:15
sinned6915yeah, i usually use ssh to connect to my raspi,09:15
sinned6915but was hoping to have gui access too09:16
gnarfacewell you will have it09:16
sinned6915ok, so its wanting to install a whole bunch of stuff with build-essential09:17
sinned6915thank you09:17
gnarfaceno problem09:17
sinned6915i have been foundeing for most of the night09:17
sinned6915i appreciate the help09:17
gnarfaceanother important example:  apt-get build-dep [package name]09:17
gnarfacethat is supposed to get any additional build dependencies unique to the named package that are not in build-essential, though in my experience stuff like bison/mason/yacc get left behind a lot anyway09:18
gnarfacesometimes you gotta just read the build errors and see what it's complaining about09:18
sinned6915ah, good reminder09:18
sinned6915now i need to figure out which other gcc packages i need09:19
gnarfacei probably can't help with that but if you get build errors trying to build something i might be able to guess09:19
gnarfaceapt-cache search [pattern]09:20
gnarface^ apt-cache supports regexp patterns for searching, fyi09:20
gnarfacehelps narrow stuff down a bit09:20
gnarfaceif you know some regexp09:20
sinned6915yeah, that is what i figured. that and searching for like debian arm gcc package to find its sactually namesd "gcc-arm-none-eabi"09:22
sinned6915its been a while since i have used many of these. its coming back to me09:22
gnarfacethe names are really annoying :)09:22
sinned6915yeah, when i first came to the devuan site to get iso, beowolf threw me.09:25
sinned6915i know/knew it as the cluster linux09:26
gnarfaceunrelated, it's actually from a list of names of celestial bodies09:26
gnarfacethey all were, even though jessie was also chosen by debian for unrelated reasons09:27
flingAre not bundled deps allowed in devuan?09:41
gnarfacefling: it's not about devuan, it's about debian, and i think it's allowed it's just generally frowned upon09:45
gnarfacefling: there's over 60,000 packages and if every one of them bundled all their dependencies the base install size would increase by a factor of probably around 1209:47
FlibberTGibbetyikes. have been using MX on my laptop (a few things worked better with the odd Dell mix of graphics cards for some reason), but they really do barge ahead dangerously fast with their own repo updates10:45
FlibberTGibbetapt just 'got rid' of cinnamon because they'd moved many dependencies far along :)10:45
FlibberTGibbetback to devuan on the new box, as and when that happens10:46
flinggnarface: I'm just thinking why don't they add lxd with all the bundled deps as is.11:09
nemo0% [Connecting to]  on every update attempt14:21
nemoany suggestions?14:21
nemothis after a bunch of updates work14:21
nemoon 22nd fetch actually14:22
gnarfacenemo: outdated hostname i think14:24
nemognarface: I'm using so suggests issue is upstream14:24
nemocan I use an alternate name?14:24
nemohm. or do you mean local DNS cache? guess I could try clearing it.14:25
gnarfacedunno but works for me14:25
nemoyeah gonna guess it's just that that is timing out14:27
nemoyou guys use dns round robin?14:27
gnarfaceit is yes14:27
nemohm...14:27 is the RR14:28
gnarfaceyour cache might indeed be out of date i'm not seeing that one in the list anymore14:28
nemonot seeing it in a dig either14:28
DHEyour network is working correctly, yes? ping or something?14:29
gnarfacebut isn't coming up anymore for me either14:30
nemo\]'[p-0;0olik8uj8hytgrfedwsedrftgyhujiklop;[']=14:30 is still14:30
nemoack sorry14:30
nemoknocked coffee onto table *sigh*14:30
DHEI'm getting responses but DNS is slow14:30
nemoanyway it's just this machine misbehaving14:30
nemoothers on network are fine14:30
nemolemme clear caches14:30
nemoI bounced network cache, restarted local network... and it is still trying to use that IP14:32
nemoeven though it does not show up in dig list14:32
nemoguess I'll try for now14:34
nemothere's a devuan.list in sources.list.d14:35
nemowhich uses packages.devuan.org14:36
nemogot suspicious when changing sources.list did nothing14:36
nemohah. all better14:36
nemothis install is pretty old14:37
nemodates back to when I was trying to do a custom kernel to work around bugs in hardware on the laptop14:37
nemoso... I guess I put that in there for... some reason... probably based on advice here ☺14:37
nemoanyway. all better now.14:37
fsmithredsources.list.d/devuan.list is no longer needed. Hasn't been needed for a long time, and it's probably got the wrong repos listed.14:56
mtuafter riding a Debian Jessie install all the way to the end of its LTS, i'm looking for options for that box, and considering Devuan. what does the release lifecycle look like? Will Beowulf be supported until the end of Buster in mid-2022, or until the end of Buster LTS in mid-2024?15:10
gnarfacemtu: yes15:24
Jorilgnarface: :D15:25
xrogaannemo: when in doubt, check the host: `host'.15:34
xrogaanin other news, firefox upgraded to 78.3-esr (finally)15:36
mtugnarface: is that a 'yes, until mid-2024' or a 'we don't know yet'?15:37
fsmithredmtu, we use debian kernel unchanged, so that will be supported as long as it's supported15:37
fsmithredand whatever else gets LTS other than systemd stuff15:37
mtufsmithred: thanks, that's what i was wondering15:38
fsmithredall but a couple hundred packages come from debian unchanged15:38
mtuavoiding systemd and not having to bother with major system upgrades are two main concerns here, so that's good to know15:41
r3bootmtu: in all fairness, if those are your concerns, I'd also check openbsd. That has a very predictable lifecycle + upgrade path16:04
masonEvery six months is the opposite of LTS.16:21
r3bootdepends on your definition of LTS. In practice, openbsd is way more stable over multiple releases than linux ever was.. But offtopic!16:23
masonLTS wouldn't mean a major version upgrade every six months. :P16:23
mtur3boot: good suggestion, I'm already a friend of FreeBSD for certain applications. but here, BSD doesn't seem viable (for convoluted reasons to do with hardware compatibility)17:51
r3bootghe.. hardware compatiblity is a thing yeah17:52
gast0nhi, is with trouble?19:01
n4dirjust did an apt-get update which worked, but yesterday i had to run it a second time.19:08
hagbard_Hi, has anyone here experience with running devuan entirely without pulseaudio? Can electron apps (Discord) directly talk to alsa, or is apulse needed?19:58
specinghagbard_: stop using proprietary software20:17
masonhagbard_: Yeah, I run Beowulf without PulseAudio, and the Chrome works, so I imagine Electron would. Steam does, for everything I've tried.20:19
fsmithredtor-browser is the only thing I have that needs apulse20:20
hagbard_is it enough to configure a dmix, or is something else needed?20:20
masonhagbard_: The only issue I've had is that some videoconferencing stuff wasn't happy on Firefox. Tested via
masonfsmithred: Oh, totally forgot, but same experience here.20:20
masonhagbard_: All you want is alsa-utils.20:21
masonhagbard_: I did have to set up an ~/.asoundrc to accomodate my microphone being on my webcam, but that wasn't bad:
hagbard_might have to do that to, because by default it prefers hdmi before analog20:27
n4dirspeaking of such: i watch a how-to for vcvRack in vlc, try to applay it, start jack, start vcvRack, connect it to system output via catia/carla, all fine, but no more sound in vlc. Set vlc to use jack instead of default, restart it, but still no sound from vlc.20:40
n4dirsorry, got it sorted. set vlc to use pulse and started pulse in cadence. whew. sorry for the noise20:43
HurgotronNot exactly (just) Devuan related, but does anyone have an idea why printing with Linux is so abysmally bad these days? Maybe there are printers which work fine, but my 20 year old Kyocera FS-1010 with Postscript emulation USED to work perfectly with Ubuntu 6 or somesuch. These days, printouts take MINUTES per page which a much faster computer, and sometimes look like shit, depending on the application.21:00
nemoHurgotron: hm. everything seems great over here.21:01
HurgotronI'm kinda sure postscript and PCL and whatever the optiona re didn't change much in the meantime.21:01
nemoadmittedly I'm just printing on my brother laser21:01
nemoHurgotron: if you are printing high quality raster that will be slooooooooow21:01
hagbard_Never had any trouble with printing. I just put the postscript-thingy-file in cups and that's it.21:02
nemoor if your print settins do that always even for text21:02
nemoHurgotron: slow even with good network since printer hardware tends to be crappy and have small buffers21:02
nemoHurgotron: if same printer is sucking now, I do wonder if you are printing as bitmap or something21:02
nemoHurgotron: have you tried generating the postscript locally before sending it off to the printer spool directly, to be sure it is receiving what you think it is?21:03
nemoshortcircuit your gui?21:03
Hurgotronnemo: admittedly it's an old network printer, but since it still works and printing is much slower now, I wonder what has changed. I do the same things as before - printing from browser, printing from PDF.21:04
HurgotronThere are some "interesting" bugs like this one.21:06
Hurgotronwhere you have to change the rendering backend in order to make things work at all.21:06
Hurgotronbut I sometimes REALLY hate technology if things that used to work perfectly turn to crap in the "new and improved" versions. I'm currently tempted to run Ubuntu 6 in a VM as a printer driver.21:08
HurgotronI already spent some time on debugging that in the past, see the URL, but the printing subsystem is too convoluted these days for me to grasp.21:10
HurgotronBack in the classic MacOS times, you used the Postscript printer driver and never had any problem again. *grumbles*21:10
Hurgotronnemo: Sending known good Postscript files with lpr or even netcat still works fine. And why shouldn't it. The printer is not broken.21:12
nemoHurgotron: could be people wanted higher quality printing w/ raster or something, and the way to hack it into driver reliably was just to always raster21:12
nemoHurgotron: stupid-slow makes me think that's what it is doing. and maybe that can be turned off or another driver swapped in21:12
nemoover here at least, w/ my current settings, my printer is snappy, fast, reliable21:12
HurgotronIt would be NICE if some things just kept working instead of making me reverse engineer because some software author made the assumption no one has a printer more then 3 years old or WHATEVER.21:14
HurgotronI think I once converted to bitmap and printed with gimp because it was faster.21:15
Hurgotronxv still works fine, BTW. Makes me want to go back to static linking, bugs be dammed, but "progress" even more.21:17
hagbard_Have a line printer from the 80s that works out of the box.21:17
* Hurgotron goes rebooting the printer because after 1 hour there' no hope for the last 3 remaining pages21:18
nemoHurgotron: hm.. surprising to me gimp would be faster21:35
nemounless the dpi was lower21:35
nemoHurgotron: like... 90 vs 300 or something21:35
HurgotronOK, maybe I shouldn't have used Firefox printing. With atril, things go smoothly. At least this time, with this document.21:37
nemoHurgotron: oh... let's see what default dpi is in firefox. *checks*21:37
nemoHurgotron: they might be assuming photo quality21:37
nemoHurgotron: 300dpi vs 90 dpi would be 11x difference - and probably even slower if poor printer's buffers get overwhelmed21:38
Hurgotronit was a text pdf. It would just be slightly insane to render it to photo quality graphics first.21:38
nemoHurgotron: in about:config print.default_dpi is set to 14421:39
nemoover here anyway21:39
nemoHurgotron: oh wait.21:39
hagbard_Shouldn't Atril, Firefox and Gimp use cups in the very same way?21:39
nemoyou printed it from pdf.js ?21:39
nemothe mozilla built in pdf printer?21:39
nemoer pdf viewer21:39
Hurgotronprint.default_dpi doesn't exist here21:40
nemoHurgotron: oh. I'm in a nightly firefox *pulls up ESR*21:40
nemoHurgotron: but firefox built in pdf.js probably uses a canvas21:40
nemoso is 100% raster21:40
HurgotronYes, mozilla built in pdf viewer21:40
nemoat, if I recall my old playing with it on website, 150DPI by default21:40
nemoit's not terribly configurable21:41
nemoHurgotron: ok. yeah. that config setting doesn't exist in ESR21:41
HurgotronI'm on 77.0.1 actually, and there's no setting *dpi*21:41
nemoeh prob same reason 😝21:42
* nemo can't be bothered to download stable to check21:42
Hurgotronhagbard_: good question. But I would guess from the symptoms that firefox does its own thing21:43
Hurgotronxv, the ancient picture viewer, does too. But since it still does things like last century, it still works fine :P21:44
nemoHurgotron: pdf.js works in a more limited sandbox21:44
nemoHurgotron: for, you know, general purpose use and security reasons21:45
nemoHurgotron: it would not surprise me that it *can't* do anything but raster21:45
nemobut I'm sure some hacks could be done. maybe it hasn't been a priority21:45
* nemo RTFSes21:46
HurgotronI probably should go back to launching an external viewer. It always stroke me as the smaller risk, because pdf.js something an attacker expects and atril is not21:46
nemoHurgotron: g/l w/ that approach ☺21:46
Hurgotron(well actually the attacker expects some adobe shit which I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole)21:47
nemoHurgotron: well, these days they'd probably be attacking the chrome lib21:49
nemonot sure what the history of the chrome plugin is, and what history it shares with FOSS PDF parsing, and what if anything is inherent to the PDF format itself21:50
nemobut hey, you do you ☺21:50
Hurgotronpossibly. I was (well except printing) happy with Firefox and uBlock origin and uMatrix, but given the recent developments I'm not sure what the future of Firefox and uMatrix will be.21:51
nemoyeah. well, umatrix has been abandoned. not clear if he was sick of community demands or just tired of maintaining it. he'd said it was a side thing and would not get as much attention as ublock21:51
nemoit will need a fork I guess. assuming it needs much maintenance at this point21:52
HurgotronI think there are forks already21:52
nemoI use a combination of noscript for convenience and umatrix for some slightly more aggressive defaults21:52
Hurgotronbut for special browsers or somesuch, didn't look into it much21:52
HurgotronI was happy to get rid of noscript back then. umatrix works much better for me, but YMMV21:53
nemoHurgotron: they block different things, and umatrix is less convenient to use for one-off whitelists21:57
nemoHurgotron: so I still prefer noscript21:57
nemoI mostly use umatrix to ensure blocking of 3rd party statics21:57
nemoeverything else I'm happy w/ noscript defaults21:57
Hurgotronusing umatrix and just whitelisting bits if something doesn't work. Maybe it's less convenient, but I guess I got used to it.21:58
nemoHurgotron: yeah, just cloned pdf.js - print generates a canvas at 150dpi and writes to it21:59
nemoso it'll always be raster I think21:59
nemoHurgotron: it's *especially* annoying on mobile to use umatrix with that approach21:59
nemoHurgotron: but even on desktop I like noscript's one stop shop toggle22:00
nemoalso, yeah, the sets of blocks do not quite overlap each one blocks thigns the other doesn't22:00
Hurgotronadmittedly, umatrix on mobile is less convenient. But I was quite happy to have it :)22:00
nemoHurgotron: ofc on mobile these days noscript is the *only* option now ☹22:00
nemo⅔rds of my addons blocked, and the paternalistic attitude towards about:config ...22:01
Hurgotronas long as the old umatrix works...22:01
nemodo you not use firefox on mobile?22:01
HurgotronI do22:01
nemothe old firefox does. the f.droid one...22:01
Hurgotronah, i didn't upgrade22:01
nemobut ofc it's vulnerable now ☹ and seems they have no intention of patching it22:01
HurgotronI think I'm less exposed with a buggy FF and umatrix than with a recent one and no umatrix. ofc depends on the attack vector, but in general.22:02
Hurgotron(and I don't trust mobile devices much, therefore the info I have on them is *very* limted)22:03
nemoHurgotron: the attack vector is pretty bad22:06
nemodo NOT connect to untrusted wifi22:06
nemowhich is one reason I'm pissed at them with not patching, given how recently they pushed out the new crap22:06
Hurgotronpockt *cough*22:07
nemoyour cough screwed up your typing 😝22:07
nemobut I don't get the hate on pocket. plenty of people like it, it offers them some modicum of non-google revenue which the haters also berate them for not having...22:07
nemoaaand impact on your browser is virtually nil. nil if you turn it off22:08
HurgotronFF could need the FF treatment again. A fork to get rid of the Mozilla crap22:08
nemoif you want mozilla to survive, whining about pocket is not the way to go22:08
nemobut mozilla is probably doomed anyway ☹22:08
HurgotronI want FF and Thunderbird to survive, not so sure about Mozilla.22:09
nemoI don't think those two can be separated. mozilla is literally the only alternate web standard implementation left besides google's22:10
nemoand trying to fork would I think guarantee an even quicker death22:10
Hurgotronmaybe, but remember how Firefox came to life.22:11
Hurgotronit was a blessing back then.22:11
nemoin a vacuum, without a competitor determined to kill it off.22:11
nemoand with a fair amount of starting money and developers22:11
nemobut yes, I do remember, I used mozilla suite as soon as it existed and netscape before. hell. I still use seamonkey now22:12
brocashelm^ are these issues unique to devuan or just firefox/thunderbird in general (try #devuan-offtopic or #debianfork)?22:12
HurgotronIIRC FF was a fork, don#t remember by whom, and Mozilla was not happy about it22:12
Hurgotronbrocashelm: you're right, sorry.22:12
nemobrocashelm: yeah. started out with Hurgotron complaining about debian printing and it was narrowed down to pdf.js sandbox doing raster (which matched my intuition of the dramatic speed variance)22:15
nemobrocashelm: and then went wildly off topic22:15
Hurgotronstill relevant to Linux in general at least. :P  :)22:16
brocashelmit makes it easier for the devs and other regulars to scroll back in case they missed anything important pertaining to devuan. the staff created those channels so all other subjects could be discussed there. feel free to join!22:19
golinuxbrocashelm: Thank you for minding the channel.  :)22:51
willowHey, anyone had any success with a raspberry pi 4 here?23:03
willowI read the forums and ShorTie posted up a script that uses the raspbian kernel i think23:04
willowalso out this week is a puppy version based on devuan23:05
golinuxwillow: There is also a #devuan-arm channel23:36
willowoh cool forgot that, thx23:37

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