libera/#devuan/ Tuesday, 2020-11-03

nemomason: welp. I'm currently on the free drivers, and indeed basically everything is broken00:04
nemoeven with latest amdgpu kernel module00:04
nemomason: webgl in firefox unusable slow, most games not rendering00:04
nemosoooo back to figuring out how to get amdgpu-pro working again ☹00:05
nemoamdgpu-pro for 18.04 no longer builds against latest beowulf kernel00:15
nemoamdgpu-pro for 20.04 depends on libc6 2.29 and beowulf is still on 2.2800:15
nemokinda funny that ubuntu 20.04 using the 5.4 stable kernel and libc6 2.22900:16
nemoer 2.2900:16
nemobut debian beowulf (on backports) uses a 5.8 kernel and libc6 2.2800:16
nemois ceres stable enough to use?00:16
* nemo looks at fsmithred 00:16
nemoit's on 2.3100:16
fsmithrednemo, I have chimaera on my old thinkpad and it seems to be working just fine.00:17
nemoI guess I could try rolling back latest beowulf kernel update, since I was fine until my last upgrade00:17
nemofsmithred: oh. is it chimæra or ceres? I kinda find the naming confusing00:17
fsmithredchimaera and ceres are mostly the same00:17
nemofsmithred: if I was to try doing this on the family machine what name should I be using?00:18
fsmithredchimaera is the next release after beowulf00:18
fsmithredalphabetical order except that ceres is always ceres00:18
fsmithredjust like sid is always sid00:18
nemoaight. guess I'll give this a shot. fingers crossed00:18
nemofsmithred: so I literally just replace beowulf with chimaera in sources.list...00:19
nemoupdate and pray00:19
fsmithredbrocashelm has been using ceres and has repeatedly said that it's more stable than most distros00:19
nemobut  :%s/beowulf/chimaera/g00:20
fsmithredyeah, pretty much. apt update, apt upgrade, reboot, apt dist-upgrade (or probably aptitude full-upgrade)00:20
fsmithredI ran into some troubles and needed aptitude to get through it.00:20
nemo404 on "security" and "backports"00:20
nemojust disable them?00:20
fsmithredalso had to remove build-essential because of some conflict with gcc versions00:20
nemoE: The repository ' chimaera-security Release' does not have a Release file.00:20
nemoE: The repository ' chimaera-backports Release' does not have a Release file.00:20
fsmithredonly one main repo00:20
fsmithredit's Testing00:21
fsmithredbut use the codename (chimaera)00:21
nemoyeah, I seem to remember that's been hammered home in the channel00:21
nemostick with names00:21
fsmithredyou got i386 or amd64?00:21
onefangChimaera hasn't actually been released yet, so no backports or security.00:21
nemofsmithred: amd6400:22
fsmithredok. That upgrade seemed to go easier than the i386 today.00:22
nemowelp. here goes nothing.00:22
nemoI guess worst case, I reinstall everything00:22
nemoplus figure out how to get whatever kernel actually worked with amdgpu-pro00:22
fsmithredok, you're on your own00:22
fsmithred5.9 is in chimaera now00:23
nemoI've tried XFCE in past, but it felt... unpolished. was unintuitive where things were, configs seemed scattered00:23
nemofeatureset of MATE seemed higher00:23
masonnemo: Gah. Sorry to hear it, re: the AMD stuff.00:24
fsmithredyeah, gnome2 was full-featured00:24
nemofsmithred: yeah, I'm mostly praying that the ubuntu 20.04 amdgpu-pro installs against whatever debian is on00:24
masonI'm surprised, and a bit disappointed.00:24
nemomason: I'm not at all surprised00:24
nemomason: been par for course for me w/ FOSS drivers for decades regrettably. with occasional bright spot here and there00:24
nemonot counting intel naturally00:24
fsmithred20.04 has 5.4 kernel and same version of libc6 as chimaera/ceres00:28
rknopJust updated to chimaera.  Looks like wicd is not there.  What do people use?  (I'd like something lighter-weight than Network-Manatger)00:51
brocashelmfsmithred: yep, still using ceres and not having any problems. if i did, i would be complaining here or on the forums00:57
clortrknop: there's ceni - curses interface to /etc/networko/interfaces00:58
brocashelmi like it because i just have to keep apt update/apt upgrade from here on out without planning for a huge system upgrade and rebooting multiple times (i would say a fresh install is better than lts upgrades)00:58
fsmithrednemo, ^^^00:58
fsmithredthere's also connman for network.00:59
fsmithrednetwork-manager will probably be the default with the desktop install, but that hasn't been decided for sure yet00:59
brocashelmi would still recommend sticking with beowulf/current stable if that suits you, because you do get a ton of new updates every hour or so and are better off updating as swiftly as possible in order to resolve known issues01:02
nemo libc6-dev : Breaks: libgcc-8-dev (< 8.4.0-2~) but 8.3.0-6 is to be installed01:02
nemorknop_: well thankfully this machine is wired01:03
nemobrocashelm: I'm just trying to get graphics acceleration working again01:03
nemobrocashelm: although at this moment in time I've descended to "get functioning desktop"01:03
brocashelmnemo: have you tried aptitude full-upgrade?01:04
brocashelmit will ask you if you would accept the solutions and should resolve package conflicts01:04
nemobrocashelm: can't even install aptitude at the moment :(01:05
nemothe breakage above has screwed everything01:05
brocashelmwhat did you do since changing sources.list?01:05
nemoapt upgrade01:05
brocashelmhow about apt dist-upgrade?01:05
nemotrying to run it01:05
brocashelmdo this in tty mode01:05
nemowithout success01:05
nemothat's what gives error above01:06
nemoapt install gcc-8-base   (Which is what I get to after trying to go down from libc6-dev to libgcc-8-dev) actually does give me an install prompt01:06
nemobut also wants to remove mate01:06
nemoand libreoffice01:06
nemobut I guess I could go ahead with it in hopes of reinstalling later01:06
brocashelmwhat does apt say if you want to remove libgcc-8-dev?01:07
nemoThe following packages will be REMOVED: clang clang-7 g++-8 gcc-8 libgcc-8-dev libgtk2-perl libldb1 libobjc-8-dev libosmesa6 libpcre2-posix0 libreoffice libreoffice-avmedia-backend-gstreamer libreoffice-base libreoffice-calc libreoffice-core libreoffice-draw libreoffice-gtk301:07
nemo  libreoffice-impress libreoffice-librelogo libreoffice-math libreoffice-nlpsolver libreoffice-report-builder libreoffice-report-builder-bin libreoffice-script-provider-python libreoffice-sdbc-firebird libreoffice-sdbc-postgresql01:08
nemo  libreoffice-style-tango libreoffice-wiki-publisher libreoffice-writer libstdc++-8-dev linux-compiler-gcc-8-x86 linux-headers-4.19.0-11-amd64 linux-headers-4.19.0-12-amd64 linux-headers-5.8.0-0.bpo.2-amd64 mate-control-center01:08
nemo  mate-desktop-environment mate-desktop-environment-core python-gi python-mate-menu python3-uno python3.7 task-mate-desktop uno-libs301:08
nemosorry for multiline paste. my env is a little clunky right now01:08
brocashelmhmmm, quite a lot of dependencies01:08
brocashelmwhat i did was apt update, apt upgrade, apt dist-upgrade, reboot, apt update, apt upgrade, and then launch my session01:08
nemoThe following NEW packages will be installed: cpp-10 g++-10 gcc-10 ... etc01:08
nemooh well, none of those will actually prevent my system from booting01:08
brocashelmthere were packages being held back, too, but then that got resolved as i adjusted the updates01:08
nemoso I'm going to go ahead with it01:08
nemoin hopes I can get them back later01:09
nemoyou do have libreoffice right01:09
brocashelmsure, you can always get them back later01:09
brocashelmi did; replaced it with abiword + dia + gnumeric01:09
nemohm. interesting. it is fetching some mate stuff01:09
nemobrocashelm: haven't used abiword in years01:09
nemoregrettably it was not super reliable at generating MSWord docs people could open01:09
brocashelmit's probably gotten a bit better since then :)01:10
nemobrocashelm: last time I used it, it was on my old laptop w/ 96MiB of RAM :)01:10
nemowas the only gentoo system I ever used -Os on01:10
nemoin hopes I'd save on ram01:10
brocashelmya, just follow what apt tells you with the dependencies and go from there01:10
nemoI nfsmounted / to do upgrades01:10
brocashelmkeep a list of packages removed you want to reinstall if that's easier01:10
brocashelmaptitude dist-upgrade will attempt to clean all the errors up01:11
nemoif I manage to install aptitude ;)01:11
nemoanyway. it's doing a bunch of stuff now01:11
nemothank the deities to screen/tmux + irssi.01:11
brocashelmyup, those are quite the trip01:11
fsmithredlike I said, I had to remove build-essential01:11
nemo[ 1383.966177] Not activating Mandatory Access Control as /sbin/tomoyo-init does not exist.01:12
nemojust appeared on this terminal01:12
nemonot sure what 'sactly that means01:12
fsmithrednever saw that before01:12
brocashelmi have; i installed tomoyo and selinux once and regretted them01:13
brocashelmtry removing tomoyo-tools if you have it installed01:14
nemoI've used selinux a little bit, I hear it's a good thing in theory01:14
nemobut have found it termendously irritating01:15
nemonever sure why 'sactly I can't do something01:15
brocashelmtomoyo and apparmor were designed to circumvent its complexities, but only introduce more01:15
nemodoesn't really integrate nicely with traditional permissions01:15
brocashelmi don't really need them since i don't run a server or anything01:15
brocashelmi was just going by what lynis told me to do, lol01:16
nemoah... might've enabled apparmor at some point01:16
nemowhen trying out stuff01:16
brocashelmyeah, aa-status should tell you01:16
nemoE: Could not configure 'libc6:amd64'.01:16
nemoE: Could not perform immediate configuration on 'libtirpc3:amd64'. Please see man 5 apt.conf under APT::Immediate-Configure for details. (2)01:16
nemobut now I can run dist-upgrade01:16
nemoso hopefully that will fix things01:16
brocashelmyeah, it should01:16
nemoit's fetching tons and tons of stuff01:16
nemobut I had a lot of toys on this machine01:17
clortreminds me of the days when my OS consumed my time01:17
nemojitsi, minetest, games and more games01:17
nemothis is the living room TV01:17
nemoits only job is running devuan01:17
nemoand being a functional remote school screen by tomorrow01:17
clortremote school is silly01:18
nemoclort: I'm not a huge fan. but sure was convenient for taking a family vacation in october01:18
nemoclort: at some point we realised we really could be anywhere in the world01:19
nemoand would not have any truancy issues01:19
nemoclassroom on the beach01:19
nemo(which is the fallback really - can always break out the laptop if I've hopelessly screwed up this setup)01:19
clortperhaps it will break the monopoly racket on schooling01:20
nemoclort: that was one of the things I found amusing01:20
nemoclort: when I grew up I was homeschooled in canada01:21
brocashelmyou'll be glad once the upgrade process finishes :)01:21
nemoclort: Ontario sent my mom, in a box, everything she needed to teach me and my brother01:21
nemoclort: once a year the province tested us to make sure everything was fine. we were 99th percentile, not due to any great brains I think, but rather the 1:2 student teacher ratio and high teacher investment01:21
nemowe spent 2-3 hours a day in school, rest of time tearing around the woods01:21
brocashelmthere's #devuan-offtopic btw01:22
nemoah yes01:22
clorthe'd have to join it01:22
golinuxJust go there #devuan-offtopic . . . please01:25
brocashelmyup already there01:26
nemowelp. I got aptitude installed, it recommended a bunch of stuff that did not seem likely to prevent booting so I said yes to it all01:35
nemo(the aptitude full-upgrade recommended above)01:35
nemobtw, since I'm here and you mentioned wifi being even more broken in chimaera01:35
fsmithredwas your beowulf fully udated before you switched to chimaera?01:35
nemois wifi like some systemd dependent thing these days? already beowulf meant giving up on the mate network widget and my SO's wifi constantly having to be reconnected 'cause wicd seemed to not autoreconnect even with it checked01:36
nemofsmithred: yes01:36
nemojust surprised that there's not even wicd anymore01:36
fsmithredyou probably want to install network-manager-gnome01:36
nemoso long as that doesn't pull in half of gnome I guess01:37
nemofsmithred: for beowulf?01:37
fsmithredno, not for beowulf01:37
fsmithredand actually there is wicd in ceres01:37
nemolooks like aptitude just removed mate.  once I'm convinced devuan has run out of things to update in chimaera I will try reinstalling mate01:37
nemofsmithred: ok. just saw a wifi warning earlier01:38
fsmithredyou could add a line for ceres, pin it to a lower priority, and add things selectively from ceres01:38
nemowell. for this particular system no wifi needed01:39
nemohave a static ip01:39
fsmithredoh, it's the same version of wicd in beowulf and ceres01:40
fsmithredI don't know if it works01:40
nemoyeah, it just doesn't seem to work as well as the old gnome2 applet01:40
fsmithredstatic ip on wire is better01:40
nemoshe's still a bit annoyed I upgraded her laptop to beowul01:40
fsmithreduh oh01:40
nemobeen promising to look into wifi thing to see if I can make it disconnect less01:40
nemohm... nginx keeps erroring on update in chimaera01:41
fsmithredyou could try network-manager in beowulf01:41
nemofsmithred: ok... thought wicd was forced due to some systemd dep01:41
nemobut will give it a shot01:42
fsmithredno, but there might be gtk issues. Not sure.01:42
nemohmmm. not sure why nginx keeps failing01:44
nemomaybe can remove and reinstall it01:44
nemodpkg: error processing package nginx-core (--configure): installed nginx-core package post-installation script subprocess returned error exit status 101:45
fsmithredyou didn't lose an init script, did you?01:45
nemoguess I need to find a log01:45
fsmithredor check that script -  /var/lib/dpkg/info/nginz.postinst  probably01:46
fsmithredwith better spelling01:46
fsmithredor check for debian bug reports01:47
nemohm. tries to start on port 80. wonder if I somehow installed 2 webservers01:47
nemodoesn't look like it01:47
nemo /etc/init.d/nginx fails to start01:48
nemowhich nginx-core calls in postinst01:48
nemonginx: [emerg] "load_module" directive is specified too late in /etc/nginx/modules-enabled/70-mod-stream-geoip.conf:101:49
nemoum okayyyyy01:49
nemoremoving both geoips allows it to start01:52
nemosomething to look into it later, jitsi related I suppose01:52
nemoand cocnfigure succeeds01:52
nemoheh. tried starting a desktop01:54
nemo[  3961.821] (II) AMDGPU(0): Setting screen physical size to 508 x 28501:54
nemothat's not gonna work01:54
nemooh. a missing lib upgrade01:55
nemoand now it starts yay01:55
nemo*sigh*  synaptic-pkgexec is messed up again. wish I'd noted down what I'd done with it last time01:56
nemoI erased something...01:56
nemoframerate in glxgears looks promising at least01:57
nemopkexec fails too02:02
rknop_Looks like in chimaera, it's not possible to install the proprietary nvidia drivers at the moment ; they don't compile.02:04
rknop_(That is, the kernel module doesn't compile.  Looks like a mismatch between nvidia code and gcc warnings that are now errors.)02:05
fsmithredrknop_, are you using the binaries from nvidia?02:09
fsmithredCC=/usr/bin/gcc-<right-version> ./nvidia-whatever...02:10
rknop_No, I was just apt-get installing nvidia-driver02:11
rknop_(Well, apt install )02:11
SoltisProblem: php7.4-fpm : Depends: systemd but it is not installable07:35
golinuxSoltis: Please see this thread:
nemoonefang: btw after upgrading to chimaera, qt now detects broken CPU uuid generation and generates using other methods (I bet urandom)16:07
nemowhich they probably should've just defaulted to in first place16:07
nemoonefang: my test program now generates STDERR warning and a valid uuid16:07
nemoWARNING: CPU random generator seem to be failing, disable hardware random number generation WARNING: RDRND generated: 0xffffffff 0xffffffff 0xffffffff 0xffffffff16:08
nemohm... seems like the issue is:16:19
nemocimaera is still on the amd64 microcode from december, which I'm guessing does not have the rdrand fix16:19
nemohuh. bullseye and sid are too!16:20
nemowell, that sucks16:20
nemogonna guess this is AMD's fault then16:20
nemoI mean, in some sense this is a feature I guess16:21
nemosince rdrand should not be used for cryptographically secure randomness on its own, maybe it failing is good 😃16:21
nemoand it offers no performance benefits for non-cryptographically sensitive like the Qt UUID16:21
suavedandyOkay. I'mma test Micro text editor on Regolith to see if it works there. Watch me.20:40
rknopI have this weird thing on xfce4 and chimaera.  Sometimes the whole screen will lock up.  I know this happens running Blender; I've seen it with a couple of different versions.  I think I saw it with something else as well.  The whole screen sorts of locks up.  I can move my mouse, and the pointer will move, but it responds to no keyboard input or clicking... except that one small thing on the Blender interface will change.  It acts20:41
rknopalmost as if every input it gets via mouse click or keyboard is a keyboard left or keyboard right key.  the one acception is ctrl-alt-l, which does lock the screen as per xscreensaver... but it doesn't put up the prompt for me to put my password to unlock it.20:41
rknopHas anybody seen anything like this?20:41
rknopIs there an xdotool or similar command I can tell xfce to flush all input and release all input grabs and redraw everything without having to kill the session and start over?20:41
rknop(If I kill the xfce session, it goes back to the slim session manager as normal.)O20:42
gnarfacerknop: you using a nvidia card?20:43
gnarfacerknop: with the proprietary drivers?20:43
rknopNo.  The laptop has an nvidia card, but the proprietary drivers won't compile at the moment.  (mismatch in chimaera).  So, graphics is all via the intel card20:44
gnarfacerknop: i have seen something like that but i'm not using xfce.  restarting the WM does flush it, but i don't know the command for it in xfce20:44
rknopYeah, restarting the wm didn't flush it for me.  xfwm --replace20:44
gnarfacerknop: i've been assuming it's a nvidia driver issue20:44
gnarfaceblender uses opengl, is it only happening with opengl?20:44
gnarfaceor other stuff too?20:44
rknopIf I do xfwm4 --replace, the whole screen goes black, and then starts showing garbage.20:45
rknop(xfwm4 --replace works as expected if the lockup hasn't happened.)20:45
gnarfacedefinitely sounds like a driver problem :(20:45
rknopI am not sure.  I can get it to happen pretty often with blender, though it's random.  Haven't seen it with something else.20:45
gnarfaceyou're on beowulf?20:45
rknopThis is a very new laptop, and I need the testing distribution to have things like drivers for the wireless card, etc.  I worked with backports a bit, but ended up needing too much.20:46
gnarfacedoes xfce have a compositor you can disable?20:46
rknop...I think so20:46
rknopNot sure what it's called.20:46
rknopWill look for it.20:46
gnarfacei'm seeing this in enlightenment on ceres, with nvidia proprietary drivers20:47
gnarfacedon't remember seeing it with blender specifically but haven't tested a lot20:47
gnarfacemostly happening with wine and thunderbird20:47
rknopDisabled the compositor (at least, I clicked a box that claimed I did), going to see if I can get it to lock up again . (Usually only takes a few minutes.)20:48
suavedandyActually, might also download pure Debian and test.20:48
rknopI notice that there's a process "xscreensaver-systemd" in addition to xscreensaver -no-splash.... what's up with that?20:49
rknopOK, still locked up even with compositor disabled20:50
rknopAh... yeah, something in /var/log/messages.  "GPU HANG"20:56
rknopAlmost certainly related!20:57
gnarfacehmmm, not sure about xscreensaver-systemd20:57
gnarfacethis could be a testing issue20:57
rknopThe "GPU HANG" in messages suggest what you thought: driver issues20:58
gnarfacerknop: if it's the intel GPU, you have the option of 2 different drivers to try20:58
rknopWhat's the other driver?20:59
gnarfacewell i'm not sure which would auto-load for you but usually these days i expect the modesetting driver to load by default.  the other one would be the actual intel drvier20:59
rknopXorg.0.log suggests that it is indeed the modesetting driver21:00
gnarfaceintel even recommends the modesetting driver on most their hardware these days, but i have found it not to be the better choice for every corner case21:00
rknopEventually, I want to get the fallback rendering to the nvidia card in this thing working, of course, but that will have to wait until I can compile the nvidia drivers again21:00
rknopmade an xorg conf file to use the "intel" driver; gonna see what happens.  The word "modeset" no longer appears on /var/log/Xorg.0.log21:05
rknopNope, still froze up21:05
rknopstill getting the gpu hang21:06
gnarfacehmmm, well if changing drivers doesn't help then i don't know21:06
gnarfacebut the intel driver does have some other options that might help21:06
gnarfaceyou can force dri2/dri3 or something like that21:07
rknopAT some level, I may just have to wait until the driver improves21:07
gnarfacewell i guess it could be a mesa problem too21:15
rwprknop, I didn't read the entire scrollback sorry but I am seeing the same thing, graphics freezes, on ceres on my nvidia based system.21:34
rwpIt started about a month ago.  Initially the nouveau driver would lock up and the kernel watchdog timer would expire and kick it and then it would work again.21:35
rwpBut then a couple of weeks ago it changed to just freezing for 2m then thawing and nothing in the logs.21:35
rwpBeen annoying me greatly the last month!21:35
rwpI have been contemplating swapping out graphics cards to use the radeon driver to see if that avoids the problem, assuming it is in nouveau somewhere.21:36
rwpTried booting previous kernels but so far no joy on avoiding the graphics freezes.21:36
rwpTrips whenever anything fast moves in the graphics.  Fast scrolling in an xterm.  Opening a new graphics window.  Anything that I could guess overflows some double-buffer system or something.21:37
rknopInterestingly, so far I haven't had a hang going back to Blender 2.82.  Reading around, I've seen a lot of people have gpu hangs with these intel cards, but I also saw a lot of blender people say that issues started with 2.82.  Not going to feel too comfortable yet, but it hung faster with later Blender versions.  (Still likely a driver issue at the core.)22:12
masonrknop: I have no context here, but it's not a GTK2 vs GTK3 thing, is it?22:19
rknopDon't think so22:20
rknopAlmost certainly related to 3d GPU acceleration stuff22:20
suavedandyTesting Micro in Regolith it produces a completely different behavior whether you're in Xorg or in a TTY.22:48
suavedandyThis is freaking weird.22:48
rwpWhen I get a hang I have sometimes been able to grab the stopwatch and start timing and the thaw from it is often very close to exactly 120 seconds later.  Feels like a timeout.23:15
rwpI have two older nVidia GeForce 8400 GS cards with nouveau driving a dual display here.  Been working fine for years.23:16

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