libera/#devuan/ Thursday, 2020-12-31

leafwizfsmithred, yeah, I changed it to  #!/usr/bin/env python2, but I don't think I got all of the scripts since wicd is still a bit wonky.00:51
leafwizIs there plans for devuan to use another networking daemon? for me its seems it default when I choose the mate environment.00:51
leafwizOr is there another one that you would recommend?00:53
leafwizfor my devuan system running mate on beowulf00:53
fsmithredleafwiz, I've been using network-manager. I don't like it, but it seems to be working. I've also tried connman. Some people like that one.01:01
fsmithredboth of those will work with vpn, which wicd does not.01:02
leafwizSo wicd is kinda the one we kinda want to use?01:02
fsmithredbut I miss wicd01:02
leafwizBut it should be updated to p3_01:02
leafwizaka python301:02
fsmithredit's the one we have been using01:02
fsmithredsome like n-m better01:02
fsmithredI'm using it because I figure it's the most likely one to replace wicd01:03
leafwizSure, if wicd was updated to python3 do you think people would like that better?01:03
fsmithredI think we'd probably stick to that as the default01:04
fsmithredgot someone in mind to do the work?01:04
leafwizmaybe.. :) Well, I was just thinking about updating all of the env statements in it to point to python2. That would prob be a nice small fix01:06
fsmithredoh, that might work01:07
leafwizDo you know the source of the source-code devuan uses for its wicd install?01:08
fsmithredyeah, getting the link now01:09
fsmithredhasn't been touched in a long time01:09
fsmithrednewest is probably in the unstable branch01:10
leafwizI see.01:10
fsmithred1.7.4+tb2-6+devuan1.1 is the version in beowulf and ceres01:11
leafwizyeah, so its the unstable branch that is the , well, newest?01:12
leafwizAh.. I get it. It was the tag01:16
leafwizSure okay, so that is the newest version which I should clone if I wanted to update the code01:20
leafwizI have been using Linux/bsd for a while, but i have never actually worked on other peoples code like this before :)01:20
leafwizI'll have a further look tomorrow.01:21
rwpI'll be sad if I have to leave wicd behind.  I have been wanting to try out connman since I haven't ever tried it before.02:01
XenguyYeah that's disappointing news, I use wicd as my daily driver02:01
golinuxMe too02:03
golinuxHope someone gets it working for devuan.02:03
rwpSince it is all python it would seem like that someone who was a python person could walk through it and convert it from 2 to 3 syntax relatively easily.02:05
rwpI am not a python person but I keep getting told by python people how good it is...02:05
rwpNetworkManager works acceptably well on personal laptops and things okay.  Really not going to have a problem there.  Since that is where it was designed to work.02:06
rwpBut my experience with it on servers is that it is *terrible* for remote systems.  Too often it has left things disconnected and won't automatically reconnect.02:07
systemdleteI think the latest firefox has a bad leak in it.04:09
systemdleteI've been (trying to) watch Pluto TV and it eats up the memory in about a half hour or so.  I've had to reboot the system about 3 times now.04:10
tuxd3vsystemdlete, probably it uses /tmp to store the video, and it will grow with time..04:11
systemdleteI call that leaking.  Others may use other terms for it.04:14
systemdletetuxd3v:  I think you are probably correct.04:14
systemdleteBut still, if it ends up eating all the memory, what is the difference what we call it?04:15
tuxd3vhehe you need to be monitoring the /tmp04:15
tuxd3vfor example if you know that a episode consumes X memory04:15
systemdleteEither firefox is run amok, or pluto's code has run amok.   Either way, I don't think I have much control over it.04:15
systemdlete(I'm actually measuring that very thing atm)04:15
systemdleteSo, essentially, I have to babysit Pluto's poor coding... right.04:16
tuxd3vand you know the amount of ram you have in the computer, you need to restart the application so that he can cleanup the /tmp04:16
tuxd3vwhere do you got that application?04:17
tuxd3vyou are watching directly from ?04:17
systemdleteI'm half way through an episode of All in the Family, and it has already eaten close to a gig of memory.04:18
tuxd3vyeah specially 1080p it hits hard :(04:19
systemdleteMy TV decided to go moving partial black screen on me after just 2 years.   So I am watching on my desktop.04:19
systemdleteI've ordered a new TV, but it will be a few days...04:19
tuxd3vwhat is the app you are using?04:19
systemdleteis there pluto app for linux?04:20
systemdleteI don't know which I love more, Pluto or Youtube.  Neither one of them has nearly enough commercials.  Neither one repeats the same ones nearly enough for MY liking.04:21
tuxd3vI believe not :(, at least not yet04:21
tuxd3vin the web version you need to create an account right?04:22
onefangI tend to watch youtube (which is rare to be honest) via my VPN to a country where the main language is one I don't understand.  Makes the adverts fun.04:23
onefangDid leave me wondering why the Dutch are always trying to sell cars to children.04:24
* onefang stops being OT and wanders out for groceries.04:24
* systemdlete hopes onefang FINDS groceries...04:31
systemdletetuxd3v:  I looked and noticed there were no temp files in /tmp opened by firefox04:32
systemdleteI even killed the tab running pluto.tv04:32
numzobps -e   something may still be running and holding that memory04:33
systemdletefirefox has barely released memory, even a couple minutes after killing that tab.04:33
tuxd3vsystemdlete, it will probably get that ramspace somewere, a lot of applications use /tmp and store the video04:33
systemdleteI'm watching the process in ps output, measuring usage every 30 seconds.04:34
systemdleteI watched it run while my program was running.  It continually ate memory, and even after I killed the tab running pluto, it still has not released all the memory it ate while pluto tab was open.04:35
systemdleteThe other tabs are more or less quiescent.  At very least, I did not open any of them.04:35
tuxd3vit could be a memory leak indeed04:35
systemdleteLook, it would not be the first time firefox got a leak...04:35
systemdleteAnd, depending on how pluto has "programmed" its javascript and such, who knows what impact that might have.04:36
systemdletePluto could well be using one of those javascript include files with all the fancy routines that make coding js easy.04:37
systemdleteAnd who knows what dwells within that...04:37
systemdleteSome months ago, I had run into this memory management issue (leak) with ff.  At that time, someone suggested I try to use ulimit to force oomkill or the like.  That did not seem to work though.04:39
systemdleteI'm guessing when one thread can not brk() any more, maybe it goes and grabs a new thread and continues eating memory there.  But I'm not a threads programmer, so I really don't know.04:40
systemdleteI'd really rather have firefox itself govern memory limits (which should be configurable, of course) and have a tab crash than having to reboot the entire system after it has strangulated it.04:41
systemdletes/after it/after ff/04:42
tuxd3vI just limit the amount of threads in preferences to 3 threads.. case closed :)04:51
rwpsystemdlete, My Firefox hovers around 4 GB of memory in steady state.  I don't think I have ever seen it as small as only 1 GB.05:11
Criggie~3.5 hours till the flash killswitch goes off.08:35
Criggie(for my timezone anyway)08:35
golinuxoff topic (and does anyone really care?)08:48
gnarfaceCriggie: there's #devaun-offtopic now08:56
Criggiegnarface: thank you.09:28
APicHi. I want to upgrade my Server-VM from ascii to beowulf. aptitude shows me this:
APicWhat can i do please?12:57
APicCurrent /etc/apt/sources.list.d/devuan.list is
APicWhat is maybe important that Devuan ascii was preinstalled on my VM13:01
fsmithredAPic, you're using a deprecated repository13:03
fsmithredchange to or choose a specific mirror from the list13:03
fsmithredand you can comment out the deb-src lines if you're not downloading sources to rebuild packages13:04
APicI do download Sources from Time to Time13:05
APicThanks for the quick Answer!13:05
fsmithrededit, update and try again13:05
fsmithredyou shouold be getting libc6 2.28-1013:06
APic(apt update && aptitude full-upgrade) | tee apt.log  →  still
APicMaybe i should finish the few upgradable Packages it shows me first. apt full-upgrade gives me no Error like aptitude full-upgrade:
n4dirusing apt-get i usually first upgrade, then dist-upgrade13:14
n4dirno idea what the according switches for apt or aptitude are13:15
APicfull-upgrade _is_ dist-upgrade nowadays i think13:15
APicYup, dist-upgrade shows exactly the same Output as full-upgrade13:15
n4diri think it is the difference between apt, aptitude and apt-get. I meant first upgrade. Did you do that?13:15
n4dirthough i don't think it should result in problems.13:16
APicI did it, and now it created this:13:17
n4diralso it is recommended to first upgrade the release one is coming from13:17
APic# Devuan repositories13:17
APicdeb unstable main13:17
APicdeb-src unstable main13:17
APicI think i want to change that back to beowulf again13:18
APicunstable is ceres, no?13:18
n4diryou sure want to upgrade leaving out one release in between (even if you would want to go all the way up to unstable)13:18
n4diroh. you sure *don't want*13:19
APicNah, now it still shows the same broken fdisk-Deps13:22
APicMaybe i shall try another Mirror than deb.devuan.org13:22
fsmithredtry installing libc6=2.28-1013:23
fsmithredis libc6-dev installed? I had trouble with that on a couple upgrades13:24
fsmithredyes, sometimes you have to run the upgrade a few times to get everything13:25
APic# aptitude install libc6=2.28-1013:26
APicUnable to find a version "2.28-10" for the package "libc6"13:26
APicUnable to apply some actions, aborting13:26
fsmithredmaybe I need to update13:27
n4dir  Installed: 2.28-1013:27
fsmithredapt policy libc613:28
fsmithred2.28-10 50013:28
fsmithred        500 beowulf/main amd64 Packages13:28
fsmithredrun 'apt update'13:28
fsmithredafter changing sources13:28
APic  Installed: 2.24-11+deb9u413:28
APic  Candidate: 2.24-11+deb9u413:28
APic  Version table:13:28
APic *** 2.24-11+deb9u4 10013:28
APic        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status13:29
fsmithredyeah, that's the one you have installed. It's probably the ascii version.13:29
APicNeed to collect my Pizza now13:29
n4diri would check anything in preferences or apt.conf in /etc/apt to be sure there is nothing standing in the way. The command "apt-get policy" should tell too, if i am correct13:30
n4dirsure would tell about pinning? i think13:30
n4diras not sure what "apt-cache policy" tells me (not apt-get, sorry), i have to check the according files and folders manually anway.13:32
fsmithredlooks like he's running without dbus. That might cause trouble, too. But I'd expect it would say more about that.13:32
fsmithredyou can just do 'apt policy' now13:33
n4diri don't apt13:33
fsmithredapt search gives sucky output13:33
n4diri saw a nice output, but it is more easy for me to stick to muscle memory. And in general i see no advantage in apt (yet)13:33
fsmithredapt show and apt policy look the same as the other commands13:34
fsmithredless to type13:34
n4dirWell. Compared to what i typed only in this little chat, i can live with it.13:34
n4diri'd say if you don't like typing, use a different OS13:34
n4diror get used to command expansion/completion13:35
n4dirbut to each his own, sure13:35
DocScrutinizer05happy new year!13:39
n4dirsounds like neither US, nor south America, nor Europe :-) But happy new year13:40
fsmithredI think he's near you.13:43
fsmithredhappy new year (early) DocScrutinizer0513:43
n4dir2 PM, some european regions might be 3 PM. Some 1. weird stuff, time13:43
n4dirUS is 6 or 7 AM, i assume13:44
fsmithredyeah, a little before 8am now13:44
onefangIt'll be my turn to "happy new year" everyone in a bit over an hour.13:52
fsmithredyeah, I think Doc has his AM and PM confused13:54
fsmithredor he's in Japan today13:54
APic# apt-cache policy14:00
APicPackage files:14:00
APic 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status14:00
APic     release a=now14:00
APic 500 beowulf/main amd64 Packages14:00
APic     release v=3.0,o=Devuan,a=beowulf,n=beowulf,l=Devuan,c=main,b=amd6414:00
APic     origin deb.devuan.org14:00
APicPinned packages:14:00
APicOk, sorry, will use a Pastebin in Future again14:01
fsmithreddid you run apt update after editing sources.list?14:01
fsmithredyou should be able to see the newer libc614:01
APicYes, i did. But now i changed it to and now it shows: 573 packages can be upgraded. Run 'apt list --upgradable' to see them.14:03
APicSo seems b0rk?14:03
fsmithredwhatever mirror you're hitting with may be down14:03
APicapt full-upgrade seems to work fine now: 573 upgraded, 155 newly installed, 6 to remove and 0 not upgraded.14:03
APicThanks to You all14:03
n4dirslow hand clapping from here. As in: respect14:04
fsmithredhere is the mirror checker:
fsmithredand here is the mirror list, in case you want to pick one close to you:
onefangTake note of the "EXPERIMENTAL CODE - double check all results you see here, and read the logs if it's important." warning at the top of, there's a few bugs in it I need to fix.  It's mostly accurate though.14:27
onefangHippy GNU Year!15:02
danyspin97can I report a bug regarding chimaere here or should I use #devuan-dev?15:02
danyspin97onefang: happy GNU Year :)15:02
fsmithreddanyspin97, you can start here15:18
danyspin97fsmithred: I see, thanks!15:19
fsmithreddon't paste a bunch of lines here15:20
danyspin97while building a chimaera version, we encountered a problem with btrfs. Some package that depends on btrfs-tools hasn't been updated15:20
danyspin97because btrfs-tools was a virtual provided by btrfs-progs in beowulf15:21
fsmithredyeah, -tools doesn't exist15:21
fsmithredwhat package wants btrfs-tools?15:22
danyspin97one of the following
danyspin97though I don't know which one for sure15:24
danyspin97Has this been already reported?15:24
fsmithredok, I'll look15:24
danyspin97thank you15:24
danyspin97this error has been generated by a CI, so I don't have shell access15:24
fsmithredonce I remember how to get one package on a line, I'll figure out which one needs btrfs-tools15:26
danyspin97you need to split them in bash?15:26
danyspin97for word in "pkg1 pkg2"15:27
fsmithredI'll try that15:27
fsmithredok, nothing in that list depends on any package that has btrfs in the name15:30
fsmithreddanyspin97, was this live-sdk-beowulf #1 build? Or do you have a link so I can look at the console output?15:32
danyspin97fsmithred: yup, live-sdk-beowulf15:32
Guest32Hi All, sorry if this has been noted already but I've just tried to access `` and got a cert expiry error.16:52
Guest32Looks like the Let's Encrypt cert expired a couple of days ago.16:52
Guest32Only realised because I've (finally) got around to upgrading from Ascii to Beowulf and thought that I ought to read the release notes... ;-)16:53
fsmithredthanks, I passed the word along17:01
Guest32After a painful 2020, I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who has worked on Devuan in any way, and to wish you all a much better 2021!17:01
Guest32Thanks fsmithred!17:02
fsmithredI think everyone is looking forward to the new year17:02
n4dirif 10% of the news is right, than you sure don't hope for 2021.17:05
nemofsmithred: guess a cron job is having trouble, normally that sort of thing doesn't happen17:25
nemoI do appreciate LE emailing me.  avoided that situation on my teensy domain just last month17:25
APicHappy YOLD 3187 to all of You ☺17:29
systemdleterwp, tuxd3v:  My memory snooping script shows that firefox grew in memory usage overnight -- as I slept -- so there is definitely something going on here.  I will look into limiting the number of threads and memory, thanks for the suggestion.17:47
nemosystemdlete: yeah, my SO had that issue when tabs were open on facebook or gmail18:09
nemosystemdlete: something in the JS leaking memory18:10
nemosystemdlete: about:memory  for more info there, about:performance for a bit higher level...18:10
nemocan also be due to addons. adblock with huge blocklists plus a dynamic site seems problematic.18:11
DashiePieI was planning on upgrading to Chimaera today, and then I saw that Guest32 brought up that error, and wondered if that would affect my upgrade18:15
nemoDashiePie: certificate is updated now18:17
nemo2021-03-31 expiration18:17
DashiePiewelp, that solves that, I guess18:17
nemoplus that wasn't the update server anyway18:17
DashiePieabout the only thing I could tell you is that error codes are easy to google18:21
DashiePiethat's the extent of my knowledge on stuff like that18:21
gnarfaceyou really should read that file then18:23
DashiePiethe release notes?18:23
nemognarface: hm. he's already on beowulf though, there's no chimaera release notes yet, are there?18:25
DashiePiehow would the Beowulf release notes help my knowledge of server backends or my upgrade to Chimaera?18:25
DashiePiealso, what nemo said18:25
DashiePieI'm already on Beowulf, cause that was the latest release when I installed it like, last month18:25
nemo  might possibly be helpful mapped to chimaera, even though a few of the steps are obviously not necessary.18:27
nemo(the jessie/ascii specific stuff)18:28
nemoThis site is free of cookies and javascript" ♥18:29
gnarfaceoh, i just misread as him upgrading to Beowulf18:33
DashiePieGuest was the one who did that, not me :P18:36
gnarfaceyea i just got the relevance transposed because i wasn't paying close enough attention18:39
gnarfacei'm not sure that there's not already chimera release notes though18:40
fsmithredno chimaera release notes yet18:40
nemofsmithred: so... chimaera will be released at same time as next debian stable? 'cause I was poking around and seems that is due out in 1 year?18:44
nemofsmithred: or will it be an incremental update to current stable?18:44
nemonot sure how these things work18:44
fsmithredwhen have we ever been in sync with debian releases?18:44
fsmithredif we get it out less than a year after debian, we'll be doing better than before18:44
fsmithredand actually there's a good chance of that because a lot of forked packages have already been forked18:45
nemofsmithred: ok. so... I guess I worded that badly18:45
nemofsmithred: "the absolute earliest chimaera could be stabilised is after next debian stable in at least a year?"18:45
fsmithredyeah, I supposed it's possible we could release after final freeze and before debian release, and I keep hoping for that, but I doubt it will happen.18:46
n4diri don't even know when the next debian might happen. Next year?18:47
nemoI thought their wiki said 2021-1218:47
fsmithredfinal freeze will be some time after March18:47
n4dirah. well. good enouogh18:47
nemooh.. just freeze18:47
fsmithredbeginning freeze might be in a couple weeks18:47
nemodamn... we need to get another release out. *sigh*18:48
nemoif only we weren't so laaaazy18:48
fsmithredwe need to get beowulf point-release out18:48
nemothe backport system is a nice idea, but it does so suck for unimportant software like games where users still expect to have the latest hotness and have no idea how to do a backport install18:48
n4dirsomething like a dual boot?18:49
nemowish there was another overlay like stable-noncritical-fun18:49
n4dirThere is that old list of Markus or Michal or such Kraft (or such), when you want and when you don't want debian18:49
nemoevery time we do a release where we miss the debian release we end up spending the next year or two supporting debian/ubuntu/mint users18:50
nemoI guess if we can get it in before final freeze our odds are good18:50
fsmithredDashiePie, you might want to look at this post. I made notes of my upgrade to chimaera back in july. Don't follow these instruction exactly because you'll probably run into different stuff.
bmelowill devuan really switch to openrc in next release?18:55
fsmithredbmelo, who told you that? It's not true.18:57
fsmithredthe default is sysvinit and there are no plans to change that (yet)18:57
fsmithredthe installer gives you a choice of sysvinit, openrc or runit18:57
DashiePieif there's no security or updates, then does that mean the single line does all of that?19:00
DashiePieah, okay19:01
fsmithredif you want fixes faster, add a line for ceres but also pin it to a lower priority19:01
fsmithredthen you can selectively install stuff before it moves down into chimaera19:01
fsmithredif you're motivated to pay attention to which packages are at what stage19:02
DashiePieI think what I need from Chimaera is just some updates so amdgpu stops crashing... if the problem is with amdgpu, and not my actual gpu19:02
fsmithredfirst thing to try would probably be newer kernel from beowulf-backports19:03
fsmithredand firmware-amd-graphics from the same19:03
gnarfaceand maybe mesa too if it's in there19:10
nemoDashiePie: yeah, the random crashing is worrying for sure... hope you're not getting overheating or bad vram19:11
nemoDashiePie: but... I had a ton of probs w/ amd gpu on beowulf that went away in chimaera - mostly due to being able to ditch that stupid "pro" thing I was force-fitting into debian ☺19:11
DashiePieI hope so too, I want to play a bit of WoW again (1.12, compiled my own cmangos)19:11
nemobut also 'cause their stupid "pro" thing was just buggy19:11
nemosent them a bunch of stack traces from games19:12
nemoI think I'll only ever try that again if I wanna try OpenCL, and I certainly don't have time for that right now19:12
DocScrutinizer05>><fsmithred> I think he's near you.<< isn't the location of destination more relevant than that of source? I wish "happy b-day" when YOU have, not when I ;-D19:47
fsmithredso you were speaking to the new zealanders?19:48
DocScrutinizer05to those, and "on pull when due" for everybody else19:48
n4dirgit pull? or is there a cron job?19:52
systemdletetried ulimit with memory set to 100 (which is k, per man page), then launched firefox, but ff grabs memory as usual, or at least I did not notice any constraint.  The memory for just one thread was well over 500k20:38
systemdleteis ulimit broken in recent linux kernels?  Or am I doing something wrong.20:39
systemdlete(and, yes, I started ff from the SAME shell as ulimit)20:39
systemdleteSo I went and tried cgroups.  But that opens an entirely new can of worms.  I had to install several packages for cgroups, then rebooted.20:40
systemdleteso now the cgmanager is running, but if I try to create a cgroup, I am told that cgroups is not mounted.   And on and on...20:40
nemosystemdlete: I've successfully set ulimits for firefox, but it tends to crash things20:41
systemdleteI'm ok with ff crashing.20:41
nemosystemdlete: don't forget that the tabs are run in separate processes20:41
nemoby default anyway20:41
nemono idea if that option can be disabled anymore20:41
systemdleteI know.20:41
systemdleteIt doesn't matter for me.  As long as each tab is limited, I'd be OK.20:42
systemdleteDoes devuan have a sort of "default" cgmanager/cgroup configuration?  There is no /etc/cgmanager.conf or anything like that.20:42
systemdleteAnd the instructions for cgroups seems to be written in Redhatese, not linuxese.20:43
systemdlete(not too surprisingly I think)20:43
systemdletenemo:  You say you've gotten ulimit to work?  Or was that ulimits?20:44
systemdleteI was using ulimit in bash.  I can try ulimits; maybe bash's ulimit is buggy, idk.20:45
nemosystemdlete: a few years ago. haven't had issues with firefox memory usage since  (probably due to umatrix/noscript, but also maybe due to not using social media and gmail's crappy new interface)20:47
nemosystemdlete: have you tried in a clean profile without addons?20:47
nemosystemdlete: at the time I think I just set ulimits on any processes that matched firefox or content process names, and it just worked20:48
nemoapart from crashing20:48
nemoat the time it was necessary 'cause firefox grew to like 100% of system memory, so I restricted it to a few gigabytes.20:48
nemoprefer crashing before locking up desktop20:48
nemoI don't know of any way firefox could possibly dodge a system ulimit...20:48
nemoso long as you keep doing it to new content processes that are spawned20:49
nemobut debugging it might be worthwhile20:49
nemoI'm a fan of about:memory20:49
nemowas added as part of the memshrink project long ago20:49

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