libera/#devuan/ Friday, 2021-03-26

sadsnorkonefang, I was away from home all day but came back to find my initial rsync still running (currently at just under 21GB).  I figured it was memory but "free" shows less than 20% memory used, and almost zero swap used.  I tried the rsync without the "z" in case it was crappy CPU overhead but that changed nothing.02:46
sadsnorkIf I wget a large file from the VPS (just used a test file on it does arrive at the full 100Mbit.  The rsync does not appear broken, just slow... and I realize subsequent updates should obviously be much quicker overall.02:48
sadsnorkJust figured you should know, and that I should ask if you have seen that with anyone else before.02:48
gnarfacesadsnork: i can tell you that unexplained throughput issues to north america from the european mirrors have plagued the project from the beginning.  i suspect active sabotage by someone with ISP level access, possibly in the guise of national security02:56
gnarfaceescalated complaints to the colos have gone nowhere because the issues can't be reproduced locally and nobody higher up the chain is accountable to their customers directly02:57
gnarfacei dunno if that's directly related to what you're seeing right now or not but it's been common, if spurious02:59
sadsnorkWTF?  I just tried to wget and as I sat watching the speed seemed to regularly fluctuate between about 120kB/s and 480kB/s.03:04
sadsnorkPS: Thanks for the reply gnarface... to be honest for a brief moment I was pissed and about to lash out at my VPS provider for screwing up my connection speed.03:05
gnarfaceafter spending a lot of time watching it bottom out to 0 then struggle to get back up to 8,000B/s (then bottom out to 0 again) i eventually set up a apt proxy.  i understand that's not gonna help you though03:05
sadsnorkI just tried to get the same iso but changed to http instead of https and it SCREAMED for the first 80% of the transfer and then came grinding down to 383kB/s at the end.03:07
sadsnorkThen replaced "" with "" and the download completed in seconds with no slowdown at all.03:10
sadsnorkIs it seriously possible that someone is intentionally throttling traffic from to north america (or anywhere else for that matter)?03:11
sadsnorkRidiculous, I tried wget'ing from a few different machines (on different north american networks) and they all have the same thing. :-(03:20
gnarfacesadsnork: as i recall, nobody that could actually be contacted about it at the colo was willing to acknowledge the possibility, but i don't see any other reasonable explanation for what i've seen03:34
gnarfacesadsnork: (though the possibility that it's someone above them, and they don't know is there... that's suggesting a government or at least a rogue government agent or employee is involved... but that'd be crazy... right?)03:35
sadsnorkWell I'd be willing to pull from a different server [though that sort of induces a double-copy delay in my updates], or provide my VPS as a resource to help figure out what is happening.03:37
gnarfacesadsnork: the best we could get was "must be on your end" but basically everyone on the continent was seeing the same problem03:37
gnarfacegood hunting03:38
sadsnorkAt first I [of course] thought it was rsync specific, but clearly it is also http and https traffic from that machine... and TO more than one destination.03:39
sadsnorkAnd if that machine provides full-speed downloads to the other various non-north-american servers then it does seem to be somewhere between that machine and here.  That kind of stuff pisses me off. :-(03:40
gnarfacewell that's a big if and from what i've seen it's more... temporal03:40
gnarfacesometimes it will and sometimes it won't03:40
sadsnorkMeaning "sometimes provides full speed downloads to non-north-american servers"?03:42
gnarfaceyea, i think you can't even trust it to reliably suck03:43
sadsnorkMan, that is a bit of a mess. :-(03:47
sadsnorkHas there been any talk of potentially trying a different (possibly hidden) master?03:47
gnarfacegood question.  i'm not really on the inside loop so i don't know though.03:49
gnarfaceyou might be the first mirror on the continent too?03:50
sadsnorkThere is uhhmmm in the US I think03:51
gnarfacei agree it really has to be dealt with but it could actually get ugly if there's actually rogue government agents involved, screwing with it at the border routers03:52
gnarfacei can't imagine why they'd be doing that but it occurs to me that if it was happening to a lot of other traffic, it wouldn't be very likely that anyone else besides us would actually notice either03:52
sadsnorkLooks like there is also Berkley, but they are empty:
adhocI just grabbed it to seew hat the speed is like; started off around 3 megabit/second,03:54
adhoc43.00M  85.7KB/s    in 91s03:54
adhocdropped right down at the end to a few kilobyes/second03:55
gnarfacei lied, i can imagine why they'd be doing it, but speculating would pointlessly make me sound more paranoid03:55
sadsnorkThanks adhoc, on the machines I tried it seemed to blast for 50% or 75% before dropping off but mine didn't go as low as 85k03:56
adhocbut from home; 43.00M  2.60MB/s    in 19s03:57
adhocI suspect the route has more congestion, to work03:57
adhocsadsnork: I had a similar experience on my work link, fast then tailed right off to almost nothing03:58
adhochome like started at 500KB/s got higher...03:58
sadsnorkBoth home and work are north america?03:58
adhocI have also noticed a fair bit of RSO around the patching of OPENSSL at the moment03:58
adhocthere is a remote expliot crash bug03:59
adhocso folks are probably burning the midnight oil to get things patched03:59
adhocand therefore less bandwidth avilable with outages03:59
adhocsadsnork: no, in Australia, but I am seeing similar issues03:59
adhocI just noticed, I am hitting differnt DNS targets04:00
adhocfrom home; napier.devuan.org04:00
sadsnorkI had heard about the openssl thing earlier, though it would seem a bit odd if it would allow a download to start at top speed and then suddenly crash to almost nothing.04:01
adhocfrom work; nash.devuan.org04:01
adhocoh, well no that is not what I would expect,04:01
sadsnorkI actually have a buddy in AU who says he has gigabit and can test for me when he gets home in a bit.04:01
adhocI expect network congestion while services are down for patching04:02
sadsnorkHmmm, your DNS idea has me thinking...04:02
adhocsadsnork: so what are you pointing to?04:02
adhocI can't tell what the complete traceroute path is, many hops don't respond04:03
adhocnapier seems to be in the EU04:04
adhocwhile nash appears to be in CONUS04:04
adhoc5.135.82.176 - => address:        1013AK Amsterdam04:05
adhoc54.36.142.176 - => address:        1013AK Amsterdam04:06
sadsnorkadhoc, I was on nash but made an /etc/hosts entry to force napier and restarted the rsync04:06
adhocsadsnork: you making a mirror?04:06
sadsnorkYes... in Canada.04:06
sadsnorkOVH Montreal04:07
adhocusing rsync ?04:07
sadsnorkYes... I started the pull last night and today it was still running at 21GB.04:07
adhocit might pay to do a bit more research on the paths to the various mirrors around04:07
sadsnorkI have a dog to walk but am hopeful the numbers will be different when I get back. :-)04:08
adhocin the end, I had more success pulling from a mirror in Japan than anything in CONUS04:08
adhocif you are not already, get familiar with mtr, traceroute, tracepath and whois =)04:08
adhocI'd be happy to walk you through stuff if you get stuck =)04:09
adhocor need some comparison data04:09
rrqafaik both nash and napier are in the Netherlands, but nash seems to have worse network04:18
rrqmore often DoS attacked as well04:19
Xenguyadhoc, mtr largely replaces traceroute doesn't it?04:22
Xenguysadsnork, Is this an ISO mirror or package mirror?04:23
sadsnorkXenguy, it is a package mirror.04:28
XenguyGlad to hear Canada is on the mirror map : -)04:29
sadsnorkWhen I nslook'ed up I got and  Forcing my pull to come from the latter with a hosts file entry has bade a significant improvement in speed.04:30
XenguyI assume that once you have the first transfer done, subsequent rsync's will be much faster04:31
sadsnorkAfter a full day of rsyncing it had done about 20GB, and now in the 20 minutes I was walking the dog it has done almost another 7GB.04:31
rrqsadsnork: pm04:32
XenguyBut I don't really know much about the in's and out's of mirroring04:32
Xenguysadsnork, Nice04:32
sadsnorkSo it does look like there is something up with
sadsnorkGood catch adhoc... I can see how DNS would make the results seem totally inconsistent.04:36
adhocsadsnork: grokking the infrastructure behind the service is key to understanding why it is misbehaving04:38
adhocXenguy: learning a wide variety of the ttools available can lead to a better understanding04:39
adhocXenguy: some times older tools seem more primative, however can yield different data04:40
sadsnorkI'm wondering if it could also be something on itself.  Possibly CPU capping out as it tries to compress all the rsync's for the various mirrors that are pulling at half hour intervals.04:40
adhocthis is why I like both traceroute and tracepath04:40
adhocmtr is often the start of any investigation about what is goind on04:40
adhocbut when you need to copy and paste the data, the older tools are better04:41
adhocsadsnork: without the monitoring data of that host, its network and infrastructure of the provider/host, we are only guessing04:41
adhocone end path seems more congested than the other, bursty traffic like that is hard to diagnose04:42
rrqyes the networking for nash isn't too flash04:47
golinuxChanging the subject . . . have finished recoloring the chimaera icons:
Xenguyadhoc, fair enough04:51
XenguyCongrats golinux04:52
golinuxJust now rearranging them sinto side by side so not so long04:53
golinuxThey look quite nice on the desktop04:53
golinuxXenguy: Refresh the image.  That's better04:58
sadsnorkThe bad news: after about 10GB of great speeds, is doing the same thing.05:15
* sadsnork goes to bed and will have another look in the morning.05:16
adhocneed more data to work out what is going on =)05:16
snyperhi guys/gals   any way for wine to be added to repository ?06:53
snyperdont know where else but i suggest you add command-not-found installed by default, i mean, why not ;) just convenient06:56
gnarfacesnyper: it should be in the repo already, isn't it?07:05
gnarfacewine, that is07:06
snyperwell when i type wine in console with (command-not-found) installed, it doesnt find it07:06
snypermaybe i did something wrong ?07:06
gnarfacecould be your sources.list07:07
gnarfacei'm not familiar with "command-not-found" though07:07
snyperis there a place i can go to suggest packages to add ?  ex:  rtl_433  etc07:07
snyperah ok, ill have a look, brb07:07
snyperok my bad, it shows up in synaptic, i usually cli it :P07:09
snyperthere must be something i missed about command-not-found, some sort of refresh or whatever07:09
gnarfacei dunno, i just use apt-get07:09
gnarfacethe chances of getting a package added to the main distro that's not in debian are slim right now07:10
gnarfacebut you might be able to get something put into proposed-updates07:10
snyperthanks for the info gnarface , i guess i just got lazy with all the automation of the other distros xD07:10
snyperok what is this "proposed-updates" ?07:10
gnarfacebasically packages they would have put in, if it didn't violate the whole not diverging from debian unnecessarily thing07:12
gnarfacei think adding it works just like adding beowulf-backports but it's called beowulf-proposed-updates07:12
snyperyea, i might be controversal saying but imo they didnt need to deepthroat us all with systemd ....07:12
gnarfaceit's not controversial around here but we've designated #devuan-offtopic for ranting07:13
gnarfacethis is intended to be a support channel07:13
gnarfacei think you can get more direct attention about your package in #devuan-dev but you'll run into team members in every channel, they're just slow channels so you have to be patient07:13
gnarfacethere's also a forum and mailing list07:14
snyperok cool, well thanks for the info, ill do some reading up on the proposed-updates, i never heard about it befor07:14
gnarfaceit might just be called "beowulf-proposed"07:14
gnarfacei'm not sure07:14
snyperok, well keep up the good work guys, ive ben raging here in person for a while about the way linux has been taken over from the inside :////   gates on the linux board ... omg   hehe07:15
gnarfacehere's some mor einfo on the sources07:15
gnarfacemore info07:15
snyperthanks again ;)07:16
gnarfaceno problem07:16
onefangDamn, I missed the pkgmaster conversation.08:35
onefangsadsnork: I have no problem with you using for the initial rsync, though you are correct that later rsyncs should be with pkgmaster.  BTW, is my server.09:02
onefang#devuan-dev is probably a better place for these mirror admin discussions.09:02
aah5Can I use devuan with traditional BSD scripts (aka slackware like) instead of SysV or runit?12:36
crashoverrideThat's a good question; fsmithred?12:37
crashoverrideI'd say: probably, but you might have to work for it.12:37
aah5Work for it? Like how?12:38
gnarfaceminor path edits?12:38
aah5I guess I'll give it a try in a VM.12:38
gnarfaceeh, i dunno how much work it would be honestly but i'm sure it's possible12:38
fsmithredI don't know12:39
fsmithredpackages install files to pre-determined directories. If you move stuff, it's up to you to keep everything in order.12:39
aah5I don't want to move stuff around. Just use a different init system.12:40
fsmithredsysvinit, openrc, runit are the main choices12:40
crashoverrideaah5: well, if you use a different init system, you have to move stuff around.12:40
crashoverridefsmithred: have you ever tought of supporting s6?12:40
fsmithredpeople are working on it, but it's moving slowly12:41
crashoverrideI might contribute to that.12:41
crashoverridefirst I have to report my first bug, already.12:41
fsmithredI've been playing with runit a bit12:41
crashoverrideit's been a year since I spotted it.12:41
aah5If I can get bsd scripts to work with devuan, would you consider supporting it first class?12:41
crashoverrideand I'm postponing like there's too many tomorrows12:41
fsmithredaah5, maybe if someone volunteers to do it and maintain it12:42
crashoverrideaah5: if it's done properly, probably.12:42
aah5SysV scripts get stored in rc.d right?12:45
ltsUsually /etc/init.d12:51
aah5Well the good news is that since slackware 7.0, their bsd style init has support for sysv init scripts.12:51
djph... I really have to get better at init scripts :(13:13
orcus-deyup - same here .. rusty with it djph13:13
orcus-deguess I got a reason now to autoconnect djph13:14
crashoverrideorcus-de: what's that?13:15
orcus-decrashoverride: I noticed a friend is interested in devuan too ...13:16
orcus-deand there are more coming in seemingly :-)13:16
orcus-de\o SimonNL13:17
SimonNLjust checking13:17
crashoverrideorcus-de: ah :)13:17
orcus-decrashoverride: looking for a replacement for centos ... and as systemd is my most "beloved" thing makes devuan a good candidate13:19
* orcus-de stopping off-topic chat now :-)13:19
SimonNLhasta leugo13:19
crashoverrideorcus-de: devuan is great; but if you're used to centos, I must warn you: devuan just works.13:20
crashoverrideorcus-de: so if you bill your customers for fixing broken things, now you'll have to find something else to bill for.13:20
orcus-deoh centos did too - but I'm most of the time using debian based linux anyways .. and I often got stuck try using apt update or running update-grub at the wrong terminal anyways :-) ... so reducing platform would ease life a bit more13:22
crashoverrideorcus-de: whenever I was using centos, it did cause me a lot of pain13:26
orcus-deit just depends on what you are using (or not) - I had little headaches there - but I'm writing most of my services I need on my own anyways .. it did run painless for me most of the time ...13:30
orcus-debut centos will be  history some time this year (at least for me) ...13:31
crashoverrideorcus-de: I used it for work, so, various things.13:47
crashoverrideorcus-de: but yeah, not fit for work in my experience.13:48
crashoverridepoor package quality, poor package toolchain, poor base software quality, and sub-standard experience in general.13:48
crashoverrideit's often that you upgrade something only for it to break13:49
orcus-decrashoverride: :-) .. agree on that - if you have to adjust it more often, it can be "entertaining" .. my use case has been likely way more independent and stable13:49
crashoverridenah but that's what I mean13:49
crashoverridewith centos, you can definitely bill more for drinking with your buddies while your automated system fixes the problems because it's constantly the same blunders made upstream and so, something as simple as an automated script can deal with them.13:50
crashoverrideand if you don't have that script, you would work for a couple hours on that.13:50
crashoverrideso you bill 2 hours for running a script and having laughs while drinking sternie13:50
crashoverridewith devuan, tho, that's a different story: maintainers don't assume things never changed since installation on your system, and the package quality is thus higher.13:51
orcus-demine is more like an old vw beatle .. rarely to fix anything there after setup .. it just runs and consumes gas/energy // setting up centos without using scripts to set it up is stupid anyways .. I prefer to adjust the script if needed and then run it for deploy13:52
crashoverrideI feel like most distros just implement QA by installing a stock install of their software, and running their upgrade on that.13:52
crashoverridewhich is silly at best (assuming the people are clueless and of average intelligence)13:52
djphcrashoverride: people are clueless13:53
orcus-de... heading out to see my wife - has been a nice talk ... will likely hang around more often in the future cheers crashoverride13:53
crashoverrideand downright despicable at worst (assuming the people have experience and of sufficient intelligence to obtain an IT degree)13:53
crashoverridebis dann orcus-de13:53
crashoverrideviel spass13:53
crashoverridedjph: yeah, I know, but still.13:53
orcus-dedir auch  / diese deutschen sind einfach die pest :-) man wird sie einfach nicht los13:54
msiismIs there a half-way convenient way to list all packages installed from a particular Apt repository in the terminal?19:29
msiismI just recovered my system from a broken state after trying to install TDE, and I'd like to purge any left-overs.19:30
msiismI've been through that successfully, as far as I can judge.19:33
msiismI mean, I grpped all packages names from there, put them in a file, read that file and looked for every one of those things being installed.19:34
amesserdpkg -l | grep '^rc'19:42
amesserarg sry19:43
msiismWell, seems like everything's been cleaned out.19:47
xrogaanmsiism: have you solved your issue?20:05
msiismxrogaan: I guess so.20:06
msiismI mean, I'm going to try to get TDE installed right at this point. It's a bit too much of a headache for me.20:08
msiismSeems there is some elogind-related screw-up that causes the trouble.20:08
xrogaanTo list the packets: something like this? grep -h -P -o "^Package: \K.*" /var/lib/apt/lists/deb.devuan.org_merged_dists_beowulf_*_Packages | sort -u | xargs dpkg -l20:08
msiismYeah, that's sort of what I did.20:09
furrymcgeedctrl-tools or recutils read (almost) deb822 formatted files20:09
msiismExcept using a file to store the grep results and then going with that.20:10
msiismThere really should a way to do this with apt-cache somehow.20:10
xrogaanno, I think this is the right way20:11
msiismLike, apt-cache search --origin <repo>20:11
msiismI mean "should" as in "should be implemented".20:11
msiismSynaptic has search by "origin", I hear.20:11
msiismPretty neat.20:12
msiismxrogaan: I mean, that command you gave me above seems like a moderately crazy way to get those results, if you ask me.20:14
msiismI mean, it seems correct and all that. It's just horrid interface-wise.20:14
* msiism remebers the truth about Unix: "The user interface is horrid." ;)20:15
furrymcgeein my opinion its a good think debian packages dont store origin20:16
xrogaanapt simply installs the packages based on your policies.20:18
xrogaanIt's a dependency manager, nothing more.20:18
msiismfurrymcgee: I think that information is immensely useful.20:18
furrymcgeethat would be immensely confusing all people like you20:20
xrogaanaptitude search '?origin (reponame) ?installed'20:20
msiismfurrymcgee: I don't get what you mean, but I think I disagree.20:20
msiismxrogaan: Okay, nice.20:20
xinomilodpkg --get-selections20:22
xrogaanI don't know what is a valid repository name though20:24
msiismI think sources.list(5) describes that.20:25
xrogaanIt's the origin though20:29
xrogaanI think it depends on the Release file20:44
xrogaanOrigin: Devuan20:44
xrogaanfor deb.devuan.org_merged_dists_beowulf_InRelease20:45
msiismOkay, I see.20:45
xrogaanso, you need to get the `Origin: ` value from your target repository20:46
xrogaanIt accepts partial text, for example (devua) will work20:47
msiismHm… I'd be more interested in the actual repository, though.20:48
xrogaanif the origin is unique, then that's it.20:50
msiismOkay, true.20:52
xrogaanrepo are sometimes broken into multiple "pseudo" repo, like updates, proposed updates and such.20:55
xrogaanThose serves as channel from the developer side, not designed to be proper standalone repositories.20:56
msiismOkay, that too, yeah.21:09

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