libera/#devuan/ Friday, 2021-09-03

BeerDone. Put a link to a LinuxFromScratch thread talking about it, it seems00:00
BeerAlso encouraged them to get in touch if they come up with a decision; no idea what that'll yield00:00
golinuxBeer: Thanks for doing that00:06
Beergolinux: uw00:27
user____Anyone running genuine Adobe Acrobat on Beowulf / other? I need it or another PDF-XML capable browser to work with an editable PDF. Should I install Acrobat Reader or something else.10:03
user____file(1) claims the document I need to work on is PDF v1.7 but it has editable fields in it, XML, which are not supported by Atril.10:05
user____This link suggests LibreOffice Writer may work:
user____Not good. Link suggests Okular should work. When trying to install Okular I get a LOT of recommends installed, including cups and the kitchen sink. Small wonder Debian/Devuan installs get so bloated these days. Is there a way to fix the recommends flood at local user level other than by tinkering with apt settings in config files?10:17
user____Tbh, I really miss the simple pain (!) of Slackware manual package installs and tagfiles. What a bloat ware Devuan / Debian has become.10:29
user____Editing /etc/apt/apt.conf to add `Get { APT::Install-Recommends "0";` does not help, aptitude still gets all recommends.10:30
user____Okular fails to display the PDF, with error message "This document has XFA forms, which are currently unsupported."10:35
JorilHave you tried "Master PDF editor"?10:38
user____I have not, I might. What are XFA forms anyway?10:40
user____Sounds like a totally non free standard, never will it be supported in open tools.
user____Joril: have you tried "Master PDF editor" on XFA-polluted PDF?10:46
JorilI think so, but it was some time ago... Anyway they claim "Dynamic XFA form support"10:47
user____ typical government generated document lock-in to $pay platforms, the PDF I need to process is government-issued.10:47
user____So we need to understand the nature of the beast, and move on.10:48
user____Any problems installing genuine adobe reader on linux?10:48
seerecursion[m]Are there any dynamic features in the PDF or is it just a normal form?10:52
user____Oh, AND XFA will be deprecated in PDF 1.710:53
user____seerecursion[m]: normal form with fill out fields, I think some are drop down select lists.10:53
user____Not sure about the lists.10:54
seerecursion[m]I would try Okular, I have used it with quite a few PDFs with a satisfactory level of success10:54
seerecursion[m]Try using --no-install-recommends with apt-get and see if you are happy with the number of dependencies10:55 sure loves to go down huh...10:56
user____I have tried Okular, does not work.10:56
user____Adobe Reader DC does not support linux at all currently, that I can see10:57
DiffieHellmanEvince supports pdf form in my experience.10:57
user____Is anyone running a reader which is older, on Devuan? Library hell?10:57
DiffieHellmanAlso, btw it's GNU/Linux.10:57
user____DiffieHellman: there are several kinds of forms, XFA seems to not be supported.10:57
user____It's what?10:57
DiffieHellmanJust mentioning that you're naming an OS after a kernel.10:58
seerecursion[m]Is this a government-produced PDF which you downloaded or has it been sent to you specifically?10:58
user____I'm naming Devuan the current main channel topic.10:58
user____seerecursion[m]: it is gov-produced standard form.10:59
seerecursion[m]Mmmm, this sucks10:59
seerecursion[m]What I have done before is just print it and fill it by hand10:59
seerecursion[m]I have seen PDFs with forms that even Adobe Reader could not deal with properly11:00
user____Yeah, but it needs to be filed electronically once filled out.11:00
DiffieHellmanXFA seems to be JavaScript based, so I would recommend you decline to run nonfree JavaScript and just fill out the form by hand or whatever.11:00
user____This country is a magnet for company bribes to official / "approved" IT providers.11:00
DiffieHellmanThey all seem to be like that.11:01
user____XFA is XML based and can contain anything, including JS scripts, which is a security hole.11:01
user____DiffieHellman: no, they do not, most places in Europe there is a supervisor authority and if someone does that they get booed very fast, at the latest, when citizens complain.11:01
user____Someone got a far kickback from Adobe for putting XFA PDF into official forms here.11:02
DiffieHellmanuser____: If that was the case in all situations, microsoft wouldn't have such is strong stranglehold in europe11:02
user____DiffieHellman: it does not have, it's position is not as strong as elsewherer.11:02
user____DiffieHellman: 70-80% of PCs and laptops you can buy here come with Ubuntu or Infinite Linux to save on licenses.11:03
DiffieHellmanOh, that's actually much better than most countries.11:03
DiffieHellmanIt's best to just go to the service place to fill out these kind of forms, but that's a bit hard now.11:04
user____Will try Evince then also Master. Thanks for the tips.11:05
user____update: evince does not work11:10
user____GNOME Document Viewer 3.30.2 does not open the document, this is from Beowulf11:10
user____What version is in Chimaera please?11:10
DiffieHellmanStrange, poppler actually does have support for JavaScript, I guess they decided to break things even more.11:11
user____DiffieHellman: it's called job security, requires Monopoly privileges.11:11
user____Is it possible to install a .deb like Master PDF as user only (not as root)?11:14
DiffieHellmanNope, but you can extract the deb file and try to run it manually.11:15
DiffieHellmanWon't work unless all the libraries it relies on are installed pretty much.11:15
user____Master does open the XFA PDF. Installed from wget ... *.deb; dpkg -i $deb11:22
user____As root. Required as local separate install.11:22
user____Okay, problem solved. I hope Master does not call home / report anything to it's daddy, GDPR will remove their precious a$$ if they do.11:24
user____related: Whatsapp just got fined massively in EU for that. News from yesterday.11:24
DiffieHellmanMaster PDF is proprietary software, so there's a good chance it does.11:39
DiffieHellmanWow this computers BIOS is bad - managed up half-break the fresh devuan install. Seems to work just fine at first glance.11:48
user____So far, no hanky panky caught with netstat(1)11:55
user____re: Master PDF11:55
DiffieHellmanHmm, what's a good solution for denying programs access to the internet?11:56
rrqrun it within an empty network namespace, maybe11:58
DiffieHellmanAre namespaces straightforward to setup11:59
user____Run it in a vm or container, deny net access.11:59
user____There are other ways but it gets very hairy, library level access denial, still fails if statically built.11:59
rrqsudo ip netns add FOO user ralph -- to set up12:00
user____Short answer: the app must be in a container or vm, network access denied / redirected / monitored / honeytrapped at kernel level.12:00
user____Or what rrq said, which is a kernel solution too anyway.12:01
rrqsudo ip netns exec FOO runuser -u ralph emacs -- to run it (emacs) within  that netns12:01
rrq(you might not need "user ralph" upon creating it, but it looks cute)12:04
user____This list of "non essential" apps is ridicuous. And it does not include systemd... -- useless "help" there.12:07
user____Seriously, openssh-client non essential? Wow.12:07
DiffieHellmanI mean, if you removed networking support as that's non-essential, that wouldn't be useful.12:08
user____Completely useless list, does not even mention package sizes as a guide.12:08
user____DiffieHellman: sure, you don't need the whole ladder to stand on, just the rung you're on. Wow. Debian "quality" upstream.12:09
user____That's an example of boilerplate useless noise, misleading people.12:09
user____Is anyone using ? -- does it support printers directly, or just print to socket server?12:10
DiffieHellmanlpr seems to be part of cups - it just defers to it.12:12
DiffieHellmanOh, BSD lpr12:12
user____No, it is provided by: cups-bsd, lprng, lpr . I asked about lpr.12:12
DiffieHellmanIf you don't want to install cups, it's best just to send a .pdf file to the correct port with netcat - with most printers that just works12:13
user____It is not so simple, "most printers" in SOHO env are not PDF/PS capable now.12:14
user____PCL3 and so on are used as raw printer control languages.12:15
user____And the drivers require installing full cupsd to work.12:15
user____Even for low end Samsung / HP etc lasers.12:16
user____Samsung laser drivers are "just" 153MB .tar.gz -- completely useless, the only useful part in that is the filter which is about 150k and works with cups only, undocumented binary blob.12:17
DiffieHellmanMaybe it's best to just grab a printer, tear out the computers, and install your own controller. Once you eventually get that working, it'll stay working12:17
user____Yes, that will take 5 to 10 years and break about 200 patents in the process.12:17
DiffieHellmanWorth it though12:18
user____note: man-years. I.e. a company with 100 people working on the project may get it out much faster ---12:18
user____DiffieHellman: no12:18
user____re: PDF XFA and edits: online editor.12:20
DiffieHellmanToo bad the JavaScript is nonfree and you can't tell where the pdf you upload goes...12:21
user____This howto shows how to create PDF XFA with LibreOffice on Devuan and other systems
user____DiffieHellman: yeah, you can completely trust that site with tax and census data... not12:22
user____Not that Master PDF is more trustworthy. I did not catch it doing stupid things yet.12:22
user____Including not while saving an edited test form with dummy data.12:24
user____I don't suppose Master's authors long for a place in a CVE report.12:24
DiffieHellmanHmm, I would say the best way to avoid detection is to just wait a month of runtime or so.12:25
AndroUser2I downloaded minimal live iso booted and when I boot it asks for login credentials17:08
AndroUser2Is it normal?17:08
DashiePieif you're installing, the guide says to use the default credentials, then change them while you're doing what you're doing17:25
n-iCeWill this distro take advantage of a good hardware or just old hardware?17:27
sadoon_albader[mIt works well with both in my experience17:32
sadoon_albader[mNot having systemd is definitely a plus that I can vouch for on older hardware17:32
sadoon_albader[mLess RAM wasted17:32
sadoon_albader[mI run almost all my machines now on devuan17:33
n-iCeok just flashed to my usb to make it bootable, live cd, gonna take a look, brb in devuan. wish me luck17:33
sadoon_albader[mGood luck17:33
sadoon_albader[mGuys if I somehow mess up and my UID becomes 100117:33
sadoon_albader[mHow the hell do I change it back to 1000 lol17:33
sadoon_albader[mI tried usermod -u but it says the UID already exists17:34
rssadoon_albader[m: tried with -o -u?18:36
sadoon_albader[mno, let me see18:36
sadoon_albader[m"allow non unique/ duplicate"18:38
sadoon_albader[mSounds like a recipe for disaster but it worked18:38
sadoon_albader[mnow to change the groupid18:38
sadoon_albader[mok pulseaudio now works so I don't need a reinstal18:39
seerecursion[m]sadoon_albader: You may not even need Pulseaudio! alsa on its own works more reliably in my experience :)21:24
sadoon_albader[mpulseaudio works for me and I've never tried alsa but I might soon21:24
sadoon_albader[mThe issue was definitely not pulseaudio tho lol21:25
sadoon_albader[mI don't know how my UID and GID got messed up21:25
seerecursion[m]get alsamixer by installing alsa-utils and try that21:27
sadoon_albader[mIs there an xfce plugin for it?21:28
sadoon_albader[mSimilar to pulseaudio21:28
Guest61_Hi, I've just installed Beowulf for the first time with an lvm based root and boot on a separate GPT partition, using UEFI and the kernel will not automatically boot. I get a GRUB2 prompt and can boot it from that. Anyone able to let me know what I have done wrong?21:45
Guest61_I basically just did the single disk auto conf in the installer, don't think I did anything custom.21:45
brocashelmsadoon_albader[m: try volumeicon, and then add it to your session and startup (just the command volumeicon); restart xfce for it to appear on your panel21:46
sadoon_albader[mAlright thanks I'll give it a short21:47
rwpGuest61_, The grub menu you get is a selection of kernels to boot?  And is there a timer ticking down in the lower right side of the dialog?21:47
Guest61_No literally the grub prompt 'grub>'21:48
rwpI use LVM with /boot on GPT too.  I don't have that problem.  I just installed Beowulf on a laptop recently with the same and did not see any issues.  So I don't know...21:49
rwpAt the grub> prompt what do you do to continue the boot?21:49
brocashelmsadoon_albader[m: also recommend installing apulse for programs like firefox-esr that depend on pulseaudio by default (apulse is just alsa's interpretation of pulseaudio)21:50
sadoon_albader[mAh nice I was somewhat worried about firefox knowing that it needs pa21:50
rwp+1 on using "apulse firefox" as that works very well here.21:51
Guest61_@rwp The commands I run are 'set root=(lvm/mort--vg-root); linux (hd0,gpt2)/vmlinuz-* root=/dev/mapper/mort--vg-root; initrd (hd0,gpt2)/initrd-*;' with the * replaced with the latest kernel image.21:51
Guest61_Oh forgot the boot command with that last comment21:52
rwpSo you are manually walking through the commands that should be presented automatically in the grub dialog menu.  Good.  But it should be automatically doing that already. :-(21:53
Guest61_I checked the grub.cfg and the one in the efi directory and they look correct as well21:53
rwpAre you dual booting (or trying to dual boot) with other operating systems?  I have this theory that some other systems don't share the EFI System Partition (ESP) nicely.21:54
Guest61_I previously had Debian and Slackware installed on this machine that look to still have their efi directories still present but using efibootmgr does not show any extra efi settings that I think should not be there21:55
rwpAssuming you are an amd64 architecture I suggest reconfiguring grub to refresh the installed bits: sudo dpkg-reconfigure grub-efi-amd6421:55
rwpIt can't hurt.  And maybe in the dialog and subsequent action some clue will be provided.  Or it might refresh things and just work.21:55
Guest61_Thanks I'll give that a try21:55
rwpI don't know.  I can't think of any specific thing.  And apparently no one else at the moment here has a better thought or they would suggest it.  But that is a safe action.21:56
Guest61_Oh interesting, that package isn't installed21:57
rwpWhat is installed?  dpkg -l | grep grub21:57
rwpgrub-pc is legacy bios boot.  grub-efi-$arch is UEFI boot21:58
rwpFor UEFI there will be three packages: grub-efi-amd64 grub-efi-amd64-bin grub-common.21:58
Guest61_ii  grub-common                                   2.02+dfsg1-20+deb10u4               amd64        GRand Unified Bootloader (common files)21:58
Guest61_ii  grub-pc                                       2.02+dfsg1-20+deb10u4               amd64        GRand Unified Bootloader, version 2 (PC/BIOS version)21:58
Guest61_ii  grub-pc-bin                                   2.02+dfsg1-20+deb10u4               amd64        GRand Unified Bootloader, version 2 (PC/BIOS modules)21:58
Guest61_ii  grub2-common                                  2.02+dfsg1-20+deb10u4               amd64        GRand Unified Bootloader (common files for version 2)21:58
rwpCaution about pasting into the channel.  The global anti-spam bot will kick users that trip the global limit!  Use a paste bin.21:59
rwpThat is grub for legacy boot not UEFI.21:59
Guest61_Ah apologies21:59
rwpIn that case try: dpkg-reconfigure grub-pc21:59
rwpIt's top of the hour.  Meeting time for me.  bbiab.  Good luck!22:00
Guest61_Hmm, well this is definitely an EFI setup, maybe I missed that option in the setup? Or the installer didn't pick up that setting?22:00
Guest61_Thanks :)22:01
rwpLast thought. If you are selecting the boot device manually then often both types of boot for the same boot media are offered.  But the install was done one way and the selection the other way. Have seen that often.22:01
seerecursion[m]If the kernel used by Devuan (I haven't checked) comes with EFI stub you could boot it directly from the firmware22:06
seerecursion[m]Just make sure the kernel is in the EFI partition for that22:07
Guest61_Ah so the compressed kernel image needs to be in the efi directory?22:08
Guest61_the initrd as well?22:08
rwpNo.  kernel and initrd go in /boot.  grubx64.efi goes into the /boot/efi/EFI/.... location.22:10
Guest61_Ah that's already there22:10
seerecursion[m]No, no. You can use grub to boot the kernel. The default install puts GRUB in /boot/efi and that gets the kernel started22:11
seerecursion[m]The vmlinuz file normally sits in /boot, and with the right parameters you can boot it directly22:12
seerecursion[m]There's really good instructions to do this in the Gentoo wiki IIRC22:12
seerecursion[m]I used to do it, but I am lazy and I just used the install defaults this time22:12
rwpUEFI needs an ESP (EFI System Partition) vfat partition of around 500 MB in size.  And then I always use a separate ext* partition for /boot because it always works.  Then the root partition as whatever is desired, xfs on LVM here.22:13
rwpBut you have grub-pc installed.  Therefore when the installer was booted it thought the system was NOT a UEFI system and installed the legacy BIOS boot code.22:13
rwpBut you also have a /boot/efi ???  What created it?  There are some things that are in conflict and do not (yet) make sense.22:14
seerecursion[m]I am glad that someone has gone ahead to actually answer the question instead of just talking about something else, apologies XD22:14
seerecursion[m]* something else like I have done, apologies22:15
rwpUnfortunately I am distracted by meeting happening and so I am either needing to pay attention or not depending.22:16
Guest61_Right, so here is a paste of some of the settings
Guest61_That's OK rwp, thanks for any input you are able22:17
rwpSo at previous times the ESP was created by debian, devuan, and/or slackware.  No problem.  But the /boot/efi was mounted by something in the Devuan install.  But grub-pc was installed.  Strange.  Conflicting information.22:19
seerecursion[m]You have quite a lot of stuff in that /boot/efi partition, is that stuff you want to keep?22:19
rwpYou can rescue the box with the installer?  Yes?  If so then if it were me I would be inclined to apt-get purge grub-pc ; apt-get install grub-efi-amd64 and then see if the system boots.22:20
seerecursion[m]If you want a working system the lazy and don't mind losing anything, do a default install and tell it to take the whole disk22:20
rwpIf that does not boot then if it were me I would purge the ESP of all data, and "dpkg-reconfigure grub-efi-amd64" so that only fresh stuff is installed and try that.22:20
rwpAnd if all of that fails then can revert to grub-pc and try to boot the BIOS using legacy BIOS booting.22:21
Guest61_I think the part that went wrong, or right (?), looking over the install docs it did ask to install GRUB to the MBR, I don't remember being given an option not to22:21
rwpBut all of this relies upon the ability to rescue the system using the installer Rescue mode.22:21
rwpInstalling to the MBR isn't really a listed option IIRC.  Instead it asks what /dev/sda device to install to.22:21
seerecursion[m]Could you not do grub-install --target=86_64-efi --efi-directory=/boot/efi ?22:21
rwpAnd will list out a selection of /dev/sda /dev/sda1, sda2, sdb, and so forth.  Choose /dev/sda for the grub install to the MBR.22:22
seerecursion[m]That's what I used to do in Gentoo22:22
Guest61_Yep, and I probably would have chosen the /dev/sda option22:22
rwpseerecursion[m], Yes.  That will mostly work.  And for single disk booting systems it should work out okay.  But here is the catch...22:22
rwpOn RAID systems in particular things tend to break later.  grub-pc package maintainers abuse debconf as a registry.  In spite of it being against policy.22:23
rwpThey store the selection made by the admin in the "dpkg-reconfigure grub-pc" dialog as to what devices to install grub upon into the debconf cache data file.22:23
rwpAnd then later as grub-pc is upgraded due to time, security, bugs, major os releases, then the package postinst will automatically update the debconf listed devices.22:24
rwpBut often with RAID systems we will have replaced a disk over time, or whatever, and the debconf won't list the current disk.  Therefore the postinst automatic update of grub MBR fails.22:24
rwpAnd then the system won't boot later because the grub phases are out of sync with each other.22:24
Guest61_I mean, I do only have one disk so I could drop the LVM stuff, interestingly though the auto disk conf only gave me 1GB for my swap (despite me having 8GB on this machine), and I'm much happier playing around with resizing lvs than doing the whole partitioning from scratch...22:24
rwpTherefore I recommend using dpkg-reconfigure to trigger grub to install itself these days.22:25
rwpLVM on laptops is the typical way to offer fully encrypted file systems.  One PV is configured as an encrypted partition.  Then everything flows from there.22:26
rwpPeople these days don't tend to want large swap partitions because they rely upon Linux memory overcommit and the Out Of Memory Killer to overcommit virtual memory.22:27
rwpTherefore the installer has been tuned to set up smaller swap partitions these days than in times of days gone past.22:27
Guest61_Oh, OK, that's nice to know22:27
rwpHowever the OOM is not compatible with a production server setup.  Therefore I usually disable Linux memory overcommit (which disables the OOM Killer) and then configure an appropriate amount of swap.22:28
rwpNote that for laptop suspend to disk hibernate one must have enough swap to hole the ram image.22:28
Guest61_This is good to know because eventually I'd like to use Devuan on the server, this or FreeBSD depending on the application22:29
rwps/hole/hold/  Or suspend to disk can't work.  I don't like using zram compressed ram because then it is data dependent if it works.22:29
rwpI always disable Linux memory overcommit on production Internet servers.  Otherwise random Internet radiation background noise abuse attacks do something unexpected and the OOM kills something.  "Hey!  I was using that!"22:30
rwpOf course if you have a compute farm server with 192GB of RAM and a 25GB virtualized NAS partition then one can't have 2x ram as a swap partition.  Times must adapt in those cases.22:31
rwpFootnote to the above: One PV for encrypted systems.  That way LUKS will only need to ask once for one passphrase to decrypt the partition.  If multiple PVs are used then each one of them would need to be decrypted individually.  And if they had different passphrases that could get confusing. :-)22:34
Guest61_So, I should try installing the grub-efi-amd64 package and going from there?22:34
rwpIf it were me that is what I would try.  Under the assumption that the installer was booted in legacy boot mode but you are now booting UEFI.  That would convert from one to the other.22:34
rwpBut it depends upon being able to boot the installer in Rescue mode.  Because it is highly likely that something won't work perfectly and you will need it.22:35
rwpRescue mode of the installer will walk through installer setup for keyboard and locale and such.  And eventually offer you a chroot on the system.  Then can install and fix from there.22:36
rwpIn the chroot on the system if there are multiple partitions to mount then "mount -a" in the rescue chroot will get those online.22:36
rwpAnd then one can apt-get install/purge, dpkg-reconfigure, and so forth.  And then reboot and try the result.22:36
rwpNote that this is also the way to do password reset if one has forgotten it.  Rescue the system.  chroot in.  Set a new password.22:37
Guest61_OK, thanks, just installing that package looks to have picked up and installed the vmlinuz and initrd images and found the boot options, so I'll try a reboot soon and go from there, thanks for your help.22:38
rwpGood luck!22:39
rwpI think the problem was that the installer was booted in legacy mode, so installed legacy BIOS boot.  But you are now booting UEFI.  So the grub boot was mismatched.22:39
rwpIf you conclude as to the actual problem please let me know!  We are always trying to improve the knowledge base. :-)22:40
Guest61_Which is interesting because I launched the usb installer from the efi boot menu on my mobo22:40
Guest61_Hi rwp, ok so that did the same thing, put me to the GRUB prompt and I had to manually assign the kernel and initrd image to boot... now I'm really not sure what's going wrong.22:47
rwpThen I don't know either.  It was worth the shot.22:49
rwpCould it be that you are actually booting a different partition with grub partially installed from a previous system instead of the one you think are you installing to?22:49
rwpAnd then grub would boot, not have the next grub boot phase loader and drop to the prompt.22:49
rwpBut otherwise I am at the end of my ideas.  Hopefully someone else in the channel will have a better idea.22:49
rwpIf not come back in an hour as people are always coming and going here and just a little bit later I know other people tend to rotate through.22:50
Guest61_Hmm OK, I'll probably try another install again but just use all the recommended settings just to see, thanks for you help :)22:50
rwpGood luck!22:50
rwpGuest61_, Oh!  Since your /boot/efi had other system stuff in there...  If you don't have any other system installed then I could clean that out for a pristine installation.22:58
rwpThe installer should have an option to format that partition in the partitioning screen dialogs when it is setting things up.22:58

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