libera/#devuan/ Monday, 2022-01-31

onefangfluffywolf: Think we have gone #devuan-dev for this support channrl.  B-)00:00
leahyou should still provide src iso's though, just to absolutely ensure gplv2 compliance. but it's your project. as far i'm concerned i'm fine00:00
gnarfaceleah: unaltered packages (which is the vast majority of them) are not even copied; they're served directly from debian servers by http redirect through devuan servers00:00
leahin one of my projects, i distribute static linked binaries for some utilities, and i'm so anal about gpl compliance that i include the src dvd of the entire distro i built the binaries on lol00:01
fluffywolfI don't think the gpl requires providing source in iso form just because the binaries are provided in iso form.  simply providing access to them from the same place is sufficient.00:01
fluffywolfand, when re-distributing other binaries, you don't need to provide source at all, just the information for the original location of the sources.00:01
leahso lots of packages on devuan's http server are just 301 redirects to debian?00:02
leahso you make it look like it's from you, and as far as the user concerned it is00:02
fluffywolfsection 3c applies here.00:02
leahbut behind the scenes it's http 30100:02
leahthat's very clever00:02
onefangThough is a bunch of servers behind DNS round robin.00:02
leahmust be annoying to maintain though00:02
leahdo you have like00:02
leahhundreds of 301 redirects in your httpd config00:02
gnarfacei don't know the details, but the project is called amprolla and it's on the gitlab at git.devuan.org00:03
gnarfaceamprolla3 to be exact, i think00:03
gnarfaceyea, that looks like the one00:03
leahvery clever00:04
leahok i'll give devuan a go00:04
leahsorry for being so anal earlier. i was asking about devuan from perspective of commercial usage so i care a lot more about the little things00:04
leahi'll figure something out00:04
gnarfacethe summary is that if you go to you see the combined results of the debian and devuan packages, but if you go to you only see the forked ones (which usually panics people when they do it by mistake because there's less than 200 of them iirc)00:04
leahas a personal user, devuan is fine for me00:04
leahtechnically, someone can install devuan without doing upgrade during install00:05
leahand then run apt-get source00:05
leahdoes apt-get source function correctly for a given installed package, when that package has an update available in the repo?00:05
leahfor downloading the precise source code of the *older* package prior to it being updated in the repos00:06
gnarfaceevery effort has been made to make the base tools behave like they used to in debian00:06
leahthe reason i'm interested in devuan is specifically because it's basically debian. but without systemd00:07
leahi like debian. but hate systemd00:07
jason1234leah: we can all understand very well.00:07
gnarfacewe try to keep this channel clear for support issues though, editorializing should happen in #devuan-offtopic00:08
jason1234leah: you will likely like Wayland too soon ;)00:08
leahyeah i'm completely clueless about that. why would i use that versus xorg00:08
fluffywolfgrrrrr, while we're complaining about things, can I complain that mpv's man page is outdated and lists arguments that it no longer accepts?00:08
fluffywolfand even gives examples that no longer work?00:08
leahbtw. have you heard of hexavalent browser. security-focused fork of chromium00:08
jason1234leah: because debian will move to wayland.00:08
djphhuh, isn't that why we're all here :)  ... also why on earth is cobol missing from stable, but available in testing?00:08
djphfluffywolf: is it a gnu application?00:09
leahthis project shows a lot of promise00:10
fluffywolfyep.  if you give it the examples shown in the man page, it bitches at you to go read a url listing what options were removed.  lol00:10
onefangAsk Debian about mpv's man page being out of date.00:11
onefangThough they might direct you further upstream.00:11
djphfluffywolf: obviously you have to read the infopage then (also, I kinda hate that about GNU)00:11
fluffywolfoh, no, it's not gnu.  I mis-read that as asking about gpl since leah's gpl discussion was on the brain.  lol00:12
leahyeah well, i saw about gpl section 3c applying to devuan so i'm satisfied with the outcome of that discussion00:13
onefangAnd THAT's one reason we try to limit this channel to support.  lol00:13
leahdevuan is a non-commercial project so that's fine00:13
leahgplv2 section 3c that is00:13
fluffywolfdjph:  a better question is why isn't cobol missing from testing?  :P00:14
onefangAgain that's likely a question for Debian.00:15
djphfluffywolf: hush you00:19
djphfluffywolf: :(00:20
fluffywolfdjph:  and by missing, I mean "killed with fire".00:20
jason1234in new devuan, chromium gives "Trace/breakpoint trap" and fails.00:25
golinuxPlease define "new devuan"00:26
Jjp137djph, apparently there was a period of time where gnucobol wasn't in testing (which was bullseye at the time):
Jjp137I have no idea why though00:27
jason1234ah, into 5.000:28
djphJjp137: yeh, I just gave up and installed oldstable in a vm, because with my luck I'd trash everything moving to testing00:34
golinuxleah: If you download directly from debian it could fubar things.  Remember, we have a banned package list and for good reason.  Filters out things in Debian that will break Devuan or won't work.00:42
golinuxNote I did not read the entire scrollback00:42
onefangAlso, we did fork some packages.00:47
fluffywolfgood god...  the changes to mpv's options were made in 2016.  and the man page still hasn't been updated.00:50
leahgolinux: yeah no worries. install devuan, do apt-get source for all packages00:59
leahthe purpose of that discussion was simply: i want to *sell* devuan pre-installed on computers, but to do so, i must account for GPLv2 compliance. and i have 2 choices: written src offer, or direct distribution. i always choose the latter with any software i provide to customers01:00
leahi've decided that on devuan installations, i will just apt-get source everything01:01
leahyeah then i can probably sort something out there with FAI01:01
leahdevuan project itself is fine. gplv3 section 3c applies. but for me, section 3a or 3b applies01:02
leahand i always choose to comply with 3a01:02
leahearlier, i was also suggesting devuan opt for 3a, for iso's and such (provide src dvd-1 dvd-2 iso etc, like debian). but meh01:02
leahbut devuan as a non-commercial entity can opt for 3c01:02
leahsorry i meant gplv2 section 3c lol. not gplv301:03
leahv3 is much simpler. it specifically allows outsourcing of source code hosting. useful for torrents and such. but a project like devuan still has lots of v2 stuff01:04
ibanjastartlxde lands me in an openbox session.  I have exec startlxde in my .xinitrc file.  Any ideas as to what is happening? Distro=Devuan stable01:36
gnarfacemaybe the .xinitrc is being ignored?01:38
onefanglxde is the desktop environment (hence the de part of the name) , openbox is the window manager it runs on top of.01:38
ibanjaI get the same results using a dm... tried light and sddm.01:38
gnarfacehmmm, i'm not familiar enough with it apparently01:39
ibanjaI know... I have been using lxde for years with no issues.01:39
ibanjachimera upgrade broke it01:39
gnarfaceyou know what though, i never managed to get "exec" to do what i wanted it to in ~/.xinitrc, i'm executing mine as a shell script01:40
ibanjaIn fact I have a chimaera new install with the same problem01:40
ibanjawhat's in the shell script?01:40
ibanjaI don't use the .xinitrc on beowulf01:41
gnarfaceother than the #! preamble, just full-path calls to my mouse event daemon and window manager's startup program01:41
ibanjajust thought I'd try in chimaera since it wasn't loading lxde01:41
ibanjahmm... let me try that01:42
gnarfacewell, you can also use update-alternatives to make sure the window manager and session managers you want are the actual defaults01:42
gnarfacesomething like: update-alternatives --list x-window-manager01:44
gnarfaceand: update-alternatives --list x-session-manager01:44
gnarfaceibanja: in your ~/.xinitrc make sure that the window manager is the final call, not backgrounded, but if you call any other startup programs in there, make sure they're before it and backgrounded with a trailing "&"01:45
gnarfacei'm not using a session manager though, i'm starting my window manager bare with startx from a text prompt01:46
gnarfacethe ~/.xinitrc file, i'm not sure it's obeyed right in other contexts01:46
gnarfacei know that at one time a long time ago there was something wrong with doing it with "exec" and no shell preamble, and i simply changed to this method without ever figuring out what was wrong with the other.  it wouldn't be a surprise to me if in the intervening years such a bug disappeared then reappeared multiple times01:47
gnarfaceif you have the alternatives defaults setup correctly, you shouldn't even need a ~/.xinitrc to set the window manager but once again that's something i decided was easier to avoid struggling with than doing "the right way"01:51
ibanjaGot it... i deleted .xinitrc. Then I noticed lxde-core was missing. Once I installed that it started working. I have no idea why lxde-core was not installed, but it's working now.01:58
ibanjaThanks for the help01:58
ibanjaI didn't know x-session-manager was selectable in alternatives... good to know.01:59
gnarfacewell, since i don't have one installed i *think* it's called x-session-manager but double check for x-desktop-manager or something similar if you don't find it at first02:00
gnarfacethere's a whole slew of useful x-[placeholder] thingies02:00
ibanjaI see that now... I just did a "update-alternatives --get-selections |grep -i x"02:01
ccaoI installed guix on devuan but the daemon does not seem to be running03:02
ccaoDo I have to create my own service?03:02
ccaoI installed with the command `sudo apt install guix`03:03
ccaoany help/advice is greatly appreciated03:03
ccaowhat I tried doing currently was running the guix daemon as root:03:05
ccao`sudo guix-daemon`03:05
ccaothen opening another terminal and running `guix pull`03:06
ccaodoes anyone happen to know why there is a `/etc/systemd/system/` directory?03:08
brocashelm>Most of those "alarming" files are just systemd units files, put thereby daemons/packages/utilities who "also" support systemd in a way oranother. So they are not alarming but just *totally* *harmless* if youdon't have a running systemd as PID 1, since only systemd understandsand can run them.  It would be *totally* *useless* (and utterly*stupid* IMHO) to fork, rebuild, and maintain a few more hundredpackages only because they happen to provide a03:10
brocashelmsystemd unit file forthose systems where systemd is used.03:10
brocashelmi hope that answers it03:11
fsmithredremoving unit files would be like removing init scripts.03:11
ccaobrocashelm: thanks!03:12
ccaofsmithred: thanks!03:12
ccaohow do I know what init I'm currently running?03:12
ccaoI just installed defaults for everything with the desktop iso install03:12
ccaoI'm running xfce03:12
fsmithredcat /proc/1/comm03:12
ccaoIt looks like there is an /etc/sv03:12
fsmithredyou don't know what init you installed?03:13
ccaofsmithred: nope03:13
ccaoI catted the above and it says `init`03:13
brocashelmyou can also get init info from inxi03:13
fsmithredok, /etc/sv is where the runit run scripts go03:14
fsmithredonly acpid and ssh are there03:14
fsmithredthose are the only ones working by default when you install runit03:14
ccaoIt looks like I have only acpid03:14
ccaoin /etc/sv03:14
fsmithredyou probably don't have ssh server installed03:14
fsmithredso the run scripts are there just like the systemd service files and the sysv init scripts,03:15
fsmithredbecause the package maintainers don't know whidh one you will use03:15
ccaofsmithred: thnx03:16
ccaoHas anyone tried running Guix on devuan?03:16
ccaolooks like I'm running SysVinit03:17
ccaoaccording to `inxi -x -I`03:17
ccaodoes devuan have any docs for SysVinit I can follow?03:18
ccaoI'd like to make a service for the guix-daemon03:18
ccaonot sure how much devuan took care of for me in the installation of guix03:18
ccaoon debian everything gets setup after a `sudo apt install guix`03:18
ccaothere's build-users that get created for the guix-daemon, for example03:19
ccaonot sure if devuan is managing that or not03:19
fsmithredit's not a forked package, so we didn't do anything with it03:19
ccaoohh ok03:20
ccaodoes anything get run like creating build-users?03:20
ccaoor do I have to create those myself too?03:20
fsmithreddunno. If you did it in debian, it's the same package.03:20
ccaonot sure what you mean y if I did it in debian03:21
ccaoI currently installed guix with devuan03:21
ccaosudo apt install guix03:21
ccaoI'm just wondering what's left to do to support a proper installation of guix03:21
fsmithredyou said something about how it works on debian03:21
ccaoyep, was just mentioning how debian sets everything up after an install03:22
fsmithredI said it's not a forked package. Anything the debian package does it should do in devuan, unless it's missing a necessary init script.03:22
ccaooh ok03:22
fsmithredit is the same package.03:22
ccaoso I guess the only thing I am missing is an init script03:22
fsmithredlike about 99% of the devuan repo, we just pull it from debian and don't change it.03:23
fsmithredcheck orphan-init-scripts package03:23
fsmithredname might be wrong03:23
ccaothe above link shows all that is needed for a runit service for the guix-daemon03:24
ccaowould the sysvinit script look similar?03:24
fsmithredrunit is easy to install03:24
ccaoI have no experience with sysvinit03:24
ccao`sudo apt install runit`?03:24
fsmithredrunit or runit-init03:25
fsmithredI think just 'runit'03:25
ccaowhat's the difference between those two?03:25
ccaook, I just tried `sudo apt install runit`03:25
ccaodoes devuan have docs for using runit?03:25
ccaoI've consulted the void-docs before for runit03:26
fsmithredno, but there's a discussion on the forum with links to docs and run scripts03:27
fsmithredthere are other discussions about it, too. But that's a good start.03:28
ccaofsmithred: thanks!03:28
ccaois this irc room logged by devuan?03:28
ccaoalso, I saw mentioned that shepherd is supported as an init system03:29
ccaoIs there any discussion regarding using shepherd that I can read anywhere?03:29
ccaothat is, using shepherd with devuan03:29
ccaoI also see shepherd is not even packaged03:31
golinuxccao: Yes.  In the channel topic03:31
golinuxlink to channel logs03:32
ccaobut the devuan home page mentions shepherd as a supported init system...03:32
golinuxIt mentions it as an init system03:32
golinuxIn 7 yeas here, I have never seen anyone trying to install shepherd.03:33
ccaoI'd like to install shepherd03:33
ccaobut I don't even see that it is packaged in the repos03:33
ccaounless I have to enable a special repo for it?03:33
golinuxIt is not on the devuan home page.  I guarantee.03:34
ccao`sudo apt install shepherd` does not find it03:34
ccao> The following init systems are either available or being considered for inclusion in Devuan:03:34
ccaoI guess shepherd is being considered03:35
ccaoone of the ones being considered, that is03:35
ccaobut not included yet officially03:35
golinuxPerhaps you would want to provide it for Devuan03:36
ccaoshepherd is packaged by guix already03:39
ccaoso maybe I can just install it after I install guix?03:39
ccaoguix install shepherd03:39
golinuxIf is were in Debian, it would be available in Devuan.03:39
ccaoyup, but I guess no one has packaged shepherd for debian03:40
ccaoI know someone that uses shepherd on debian but they install it with guix03:40
ccaoand I think they run shepherd from systemd or something weird like that iirc03:40
golinuxNope.  They are even removing init scripts from packages.03:41
ccaoIt would be cool to support shepherd on devuan03:41
ccaodevuan would be the only distro that is not Guix System that supports shepherd03:42
golinuxThere is one post on our forum that mentions it:
golinuxAnd some old discussion on the DNG mail list (which I've obviously forgotten):,shepherd.en.html03:45
ccaois this more or less what I have to do to use runit on devuan?
ccaogolinux thanks for the links03:50
Guest92hi, i was blocked during registration and "Unfortunately it looks like your request is spam. If you feel this is a mistake, please direct any inquiries to the forum administrator at IRC #devuan at"15:59
Guest92Is anyone here?16:02
gnarfaceyes, people are here16:03
jason1234a question about Devuan: "systemd is the future, basically every major distro is using it by now" <-- do you think that systemd is getting larger and more popular among linux, or opposite?17:20
fsmithredopinion polls belong in #devuan-offtopic, please.17:21
brocashelmdoes apt plan on supporting parallel downloads anytime soon?21:46
onefangAsk Debian.21:48
hagbardIt kinda already does, if the packages come from different repositories.21:50
brocashelmit's cool, i just installed apt-fast from github21:53
golinuxbrocashelm: Don't you know that speed kills? Sorry for off-topic.22:14
brocashelmi figured pacman already supports that and it makes updating a breeze. is it a bandwidth issue?22:17
sedroskencould be that, or multiple concurrent connections on a large enough update might be seen as a DoS attack22:25
duck_Contemplating installing Devuan on an iMac 14,4. What do you think the chances would be of getting the Mac keyboard and mouse working?22:57
onefangTry a live ISO and see.  I was able to boot my 2012 Mac Mini with a live Devuan ISO.  I specifically bought a Mac Mini so I didn't end up with an extra keyboard and mouse, coz I use a KVM switch, so can't say if those work.23:03
duck_It certainly works with a live Debian. Just don't want to ditch a good keyboard and mouse23:05
onefangShould work fine with Devuan then.23:05
DRWhiteHi folks, I have an issue where all my icons just keep staying in the middle of my desktop, and I can't find any solutions or anyone that even talks about having the issue. Anyone here have the issue or had it and resolved it?23:57

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