libera/#devuan/ Sunday, 2022-02-20

rwpI don't have pacct installed on my XFCE system.  Probably a Recomends pulled it in?00:21
rwpThe Refracta live XFCE image is 1.3GB in size.  Boot it and see what it does.
rwpAmong the very large packages are LibreOffice, and TeXlive, and others for sure.  But I remember those as being very large.00:23
brocashelmyeah, i already installed refracta00:26
brocashelmi removed acct and that deleted /var/log/account00:36
fluffywolffor a mini install, don't tasksel anything.  start with just the bare base system and only install things as you need them.  60GB is absurd - it should be about a sixtith of that....00:43
brocashelmyeah, i figured out it was due to pacct and obsolete wine folders (removed both)00:44
brocashelmthat helped bring down the size00:44
fluffywolfthis box, with tons of crap installed over four versions of devuan, a kernel build, etc, is only 26GB total.00:45
fluffywolfmost of which is /var, which probably means I should clean things up in there.  lol00:46
fluffywolf13GB of it is apt's cache.  heh.00:46
fluffywolfand 1.3GB of it is wine-staging00:47
brocashelmdaemon.log and syslog are also bloat-happy files00:48
fluffywolfwhy are you trying to shrink down an existing install instead of doing a fresh install?00:49
brocashelmbecause i applied a lot of my own configs and it would take forever to restore them00:51
brocashelmand my original question was the curiosity of getting packages down to 1,000 on an xfce system00:51
brocashelmsince arch systems that use xfce can pull that off00:51
fluffywolfok, so curiosity.  I thought you were trying to move an installed system onto a smaller machine or something...00:53
rwpI really meant to "boot" it and look.  It's a live boot image.  Doesn't need to be installed in order to look to see what it does.00:55
brocashelmoh, no, that wasn't my intention at all (moving to smaller machine)00:55
brocashelmjust to clean up my devuan systems as much as i can, since i like to tidy things up every once in a while00:55
brocashelmyeah, refracta is exclusively made with refractatools and basically an out-of-the-box experience. that's the one i settled for00:56
rwpI have really gotten to like 'ncdu'.  Running "ncdu /var" and "ncdu -x /" could be informative.00:57
brocashelmnever heard of ncdu00:57
rwpIt will add 41302 bytes to your system.  :-)00:58
rwpAccording to "apt-cache show ncdu | grep Size:".  Oh, that's package size.  Installed says 92 which I assume is KB.00:58
brocashelmpretty nice, though00:58
brocashelmmight switch to this00:59
fluffywolfI've always use plain ol' du.00:59
rwpncdu is pretty nice.  I mostly use it now.  Previously I would have used "du | xdu" which is a venerable old X program from notice the address?01:01
rwp(arl is the Army Research Laboratory.  And xdu was one of the programs that came out of there.)01:02
fluffywolfI ususally use du, du -s, du -sc, or du | sort -n, depending on what I'm trying to do...01:03
rwpThose are all good too.  And I still do the say, such as when trying to capture a disk event.  So might be running du -xml repeatedly in order to capture a usage spike.01:04
bsd4meI just found out my uefi systems (including devuan) are on a msdos partition table hdd. Will I need to delete everything and create uefi partition table on hdd?02:01
Xenguyrwp, ncdu is great (it could be enhanced, but pretty damn useful)02:22
bsd4meI for one didn't know about those :(02:28
WoCafaik, you can use mbr partition tables for uefi as well02:32
WoCmbr is good for up to 2 TB02:33
WoCActually 2 TiB02:33
bsd4meWoC, thanks!02:37
WoCnp, i have some weird setups... confuses most installers02:38
bsd4meThis is first time I did this. Well, devuan and redcorelinux seem to be booting ok, so guess I'll keep using them as is.02:40
WoCJust a note; PARTUUID is much shorter when using mbr vs gpt02:41
bsd4meXenguy, I downloaded ncdu. Though you meant it for rwp, it's very interesting app!02:41
bsd4meWoC, thanks again :)02:41
onefangI tried it to, looks useful.02:43
WoCAnyone know if it's possible to mount a FreeBSD ufs filesystem somehow ?02:44
rwpRegarding ncdu...  I am glad to make more people aware of it! :-)02:46
WoCreally handy; ncdu02:47
rwpRegarding UEFI versus Legacy BIOS boot...  That depends upon your motherboard firmware.  If it is set to boot Legacy BIOS then you will be booting Legacy BIOS and you don't need UEFI partitions.02:47
rwpOn the other hand if your motherboard firmware is set to boot UEFI then you already have an ESP (EFI Service Partition) or it wouldn't be already booting.02:47
rwpYou only need to re-partition to create an ESP if you are switching from Legacy BIOS boot to UEFI boot.  Which is independent of Devuan.02:48
Xenguybsd4me, Yeah, ncdu is a keeper02:48
rwpIf you are moving a Legacy boot system disk from a motherboard that boots Legacy BIOS to another motherboard that only boots UEFI that's when you are screwed.02:48
rwpBecause then you will need to resize and repartition things to create an ESP that did not exist on that disk.02:49
rwpI didn't mention DOS MBR versus GPT because AFAIK that isn't part of the UEFI v. Legacy equation either.  It's just that GPT is better so always use it if possible.02:50
rwpOh, on the other hand if you are moving a disk from a system that boots/booted UEFI with an ESP to an older motherboard that only boots Legacy BIOS then...02:52
rwpone must remove grub-efi and switch to grub-pc to boot.  Probably by booting a rescue disk and doing that switch.02:52
WoCIt's also possible to do a hybrid with both legacy and uefi02:52
bsd4memy ESP is one ssd that came with laptop. I installed the hdd and then installed distros and grub.02:52
rwpYes.  That will work too.  Using multiple storage devices.02:53
WoCeven on one device02:53
WoCjust takes more time when updating the kernel02:53
bsd4meGlad to know that. I was pretty upset thinking I was going to have to start all over!02:53
rwpbsd4me, You had two independent statements though.  a) Your UEFI systems used DOS MBR partitioning.  b) Contemplating needing to create UEFI ESP on hard drive.02:55
rwpThe first did not control the second.  But the second may or may not be needed depending upon the other factors.02:56
rwpAlso UEFI booting firmware often can be switched to boot Legacy mode.  Usually.  So that is another way out.02:57
bsd4meuefi systems are installed on mbr partition table hdd. Actually my question was if I needed to delete systems, change hdd to uefi, and re-install systems (distros)  :)02:58
rwpAFAIK UEFI is perfectly fine on DOS MBR partition tables.  It just needs a UEFI ESP (EFI Service Partition) of about 1MB as a FAT32 to hold the UEFI files.02:59
bsd4meinteresting, didn't know that about switching to Legacy mode. Thanks for all the info!02:59
rwpRegarding switching modes, that all depends upon the firmware.  I say "most" allow it.  But some do not.  And clearly in the future all will be UEFI most likely.03:00
rwpI guess I should word that as, in the future it is more likely that firmware will be only UEFI.03:01
bsd4memy ESP partition is 100MB. Came that way on laptop. Plenty of room for my needs03:02
rwpThat should be more than sufficient! :-)03:02
bsd4meI've actually read where some people say it should be 500MB!  I discussed that with them, but they kept their opinion. Said they read it somewhere.03:03
fsmithredsome motherboards require that03:04
fsmithredI haven't run into one yet.03:04
fsmithredbut I also haven't run into two motherboards that treat uefi the same way03:04
bsd4meInteresting! I sure didn't know that. Have to read up on it.03:04
rwpI think those are systems where at boot time you have a full graphical OS running with mouse, windows, graphics, and everything, in order to configure the system firmware.03:05
rwpThat can eat up a lot of space!  Talk about bloat...03:06
rwpI just looked at the base Devuan installer creates a 512MB ESP /dev/sda1 at install time.  I am currently using 148KB of it.03:07
rwpOn my system with "df -h" I see: "/dev/sda1       511M  148K  511M   1% /boot/efi", and with "parted /dev/sda print" I see " 1      1049kB  538MB  537MB   fat32                 boot, esp"03:09
bsd4meI'm using 60MB of mine, but it has a bunch of junk in it when testing distros that needs to be removed.03:09
rwpFor me the easiest way to tell on a running system how it booted is "dpkg -l |grep grub" and if I see grub-efi then its UEFI and if grub-pc then it is Legacy.03:11
rwpI also said "GPT is better so always use it if possible" which isn't possible on older BIOS systems pre-dating GPT.  Older Legacy BIOS won't understand GPT so that forces MBR.03:14
fsmithredrwp, you would be fooled by a devuan live-iso03:14
fsmithredto see if you booted in uefi, look for /sys/firmware/efi03:15
rwpfsmithred, Excellent!  I will use that moving forward.  That's definitely better.03:16
fsmithredthe amd64 iso has grub-efi-amd64 installed. If you boot legacy and install the system, the installer will install grub-pc for the bootloader.03:17
bsd4mefsmithred, thanks! checked mine and is efi03:17
fsmithredthe deb package is in the iso03:17
fsmithredanother way to tell is to run efibootmgr03:17
* bsd4me is rebooting to check something03:22
bsd4meWhen I saw my problem, I deleted swap partition and created swapfile. After rebooting, I see that my Devuan swapfile exists.03:28
rwpbsd4me, What was your problem with swap?03:32
bsd4merwp, I thought I'd need a partition for my distro testing and since hdd was mbr, I moved swap to a swapfile :)03:54
bsd4meOn this new laptop, I like testing different distros basically for fun :)03:55
bsd4meold laptop was lenovo ideapad. This new one is acer aspire 503:56
rwpUsing swapfiles are viable these days.04:26
bsd4meFirst time I've created one.04:31
bsd4meDoubt it will be used. This machine has 16G of ram. I don't do much that requires a lot of memory usage.04:32
onefangThat's why I use swapspace, it creates and manages swapfiles for you, when you need it.04:37
bsd4meonefang, lol, I never heard of that one. Will have to download it and check it out. Thanks!04:54
rwpA little bit of swap is always good because it allows the kernel to take memory blocks that are never accessed again and free up that ram for file system buffer cache.05:11
joergonefang: that sounds interesting. I patched the suspend-to-disk scripts on my system to add sufficient _free_ swap just immediately before suspend05:12
fluffywolfa little bit of swap is always good if you plan on running firefox with less than 64GB of ram.  :P05:12
rwpFirefox and Chromium are both definitely pigs.05:13
rwpReal swap is needed for suspend-resume too.05:13
joerghonestly, the only way to deal with this memhog-critters05:14
joergrwp: yep, all RAM gets saved to swap then system shuts down05:15
joergso you need more FREE swap than RAM for suspending05:15
rwpThe problem is that half the memory hog is the program but the other 3/4 of the problem are piggy web sites that must get displayed.  (I learned that from Yogi Berra.)05:15
rktaI want to kill my gpg-agent when I suspend my laptop. Turns out, I have no idea what actually happens when I close my lid. Where is the point to hook in my command?11:55
cyteen@rkta: What actually happens when you close your lid is found in /var/log/pm-suspend.log, add a hook in /usr/lib/pm-utils/sleep.d to add suspend resume behaviour for pm-action events.12:39
rktacyteen: I don't have pm-utils installed12:41
fsmithredmaybe something in /etc/acpi12:43
ham5urgHas anyone used serial tty via bluetooth to login into a machine?12:54
rrqrkta: maybe suspend is handled by elogind? (/etc/elogind/logind.conf)12:56
rrqif so, "man loginctl" is supposed to be a help12:58
debdogrkta: on beowulf it started at /etc/acpi/events/lidbtn and script is /etc/acpi/ to add stuff. on chimaera I think it was /etc/elogind/logind.conf.12:59
debdoglogind.conf: HandleLidSwitch=ignore  but IDK what else is allowed there and how to hook a script or an action there13:04
rktaseems to be elogind. man 1 loginctl points to some 'Hook directories', that could work.13:12
rktathis elogind stuff looks a bit like bloat13:12
debdogthe acpi solution I found and altered within 15 minutes and without internet access. the elogind 'solution' took several days with many conversations here. I hate it13:14
dokmaI still can't figure out why my initramfs won't assemble my raid array on boot automatically...13:39
dokmaI've added a script to init-premount to assemble the array manually and now I can boot13:39
dokmaIs there any way to see what exactly initramfs is doing during boot?13:40
dokmaThis started when I upgraded to Chimaera and my kernel went from from 3 up to 513:42
gnarfacemaybe you need to run update-initramfs13:50
dokmaI ran that a few hundred times while trying to fix13:50
gnarfaceis it a custom kernel?13:51
gnarfacemostly the initramfs just loads modules13:51
gnarfacethere's some config variables in /etc/initramfs-tools/13:51
dokmagnarface: it also has to mount root file system or no boot13:51
dokmaand for that it needs to assemble the raid array if root is there13:52
gnarfaceyea, it's not gonna find the initramfs though if it can't mount anything13:52
onefangMight need RAID support in your bootloader.13:52
dokmaIn grub that should be load the raid module no?13:53
dokmaI do have insmod mdraid1x in grub.cfg13:55
gnarfacei think there's more to it than that13:56
dokmagnarface: what sould I look for?13:56
rrqdokma: as I remember /usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/local-block/mdadm has an unfortunate * on line 53, which causes assembly to be abandoned unless there is some /dev/mdX device already13:56
onefang/etc/mdadm/mdadm.conf has the proper ARRAY lines?13:57
dokmarrq: this? mdadm -q --run /dev/md?*13:57
dokmaonefang: yes13:57
dokmarrq: that's the script that should assemble the raid array prior to booting?13:58
rrqI think so... maybe an "|| true" is helpful13:58
dokmarrq: any way to trace what this thing is doing during boot? like set -x13:58
dokmarrq: because the next line would have enabled my array: mdadm -q --assemble --scan --run13:59
dokmait either doesn't go into this if or line 53 breaks it somehow...14:00
dokmarrq: I've seen some reference to raid arrays not assembling due to some delays14:00
dokmawhy if [ "$COUNT" = "$MAX" ] ???14:00
dokmathat's line 50 and I don't get what they were trying to do with that14:01
rrqI think it's trying 30 times14:01
rrq(I played with raid once some while ago.. no clear memory)14:02
dokmaI don't have /run/count.mdadm.initrd in the booted system...14:02
dokmaWould set -x show up in the boot messages ??14:03
rrqit's in the initramfs .. all happens pre-pivot14:03
dokmawhat is pre-pivot ?14:04
rrqthe boot consists of two phases: pre-pivot and post-pivot14:04
rrqpivot is when the disk file system becomes root14:04
dokmaIs that related to set -x in this script?14:04
rrqinitramfs is run by an init script that originate as /usr/share/initramfs-tools/init14:06
rrqit becoms /init in hte initramfs14:06
dokmaThat makes sense. I still don't understand how is that related to set -x14:06
dokmaI thought I might be able to get some output from the mdadm script into boot messages to see what's going on14:07
rrqthe "debug=y" boot parameter might be helpful14:10
furrymcgeeline 50 seems to be related to bug #830770 mentioned earlier in the script14:10
dokmarrq: will check debug=y14:15
dokmadamn... there is even break=premount which drops you into an initramfs shell14:19
dokmabut my initramfs shell does not accept keyboard input14:19
dokmaneither via KVM nor from a local USB keyboard...14:19
rrqthere is a "break=.." parameter ... try "break=top,premount", it should load keyboard modules14:26
rrq(that will stop twice)14:28
dokmarrq: I'm just reading this:
dokmaSo keyboard is not available in break=top14:35
dokmaPossibly not even in break=premount14:35
rrqare all the modules available in the initramfs?14:36
dokmaActually, since keyboard is not available when I get dropped into (initramfs) when /dev/md0 is not found it shouldn't be available if I break at any earlier point14:36
dokmaI haven't checked that actually14:36
dokmaLet me unpack it and take a look14:36
dokmaehci-hcd, uhci-hcd, ochi-hcd and usbhid are present14:39
dokmaThey probably just aren't loaded14:40
dokmais there any way to tell initramfs to load them before anything else?14:40
rrqthe maybe_break function loads the if break=top ... see scripts/functions14:41
furrymcgeeis there a way to drop initramfs completely?14:44
rrqdokma: you might want to use "netconsole=.." instead of any "break" and capture the whole debug output to file on another machine14:45
rrqfurrymcgee: should be possible though maybe not terribly easy with grub boot.14:48
dokmarrq: will check it out14:48
flinglxd 4.0.11 is in debian testing17:12
flingare we going to have lxd soon? :>17:13
* fluffywolf wonders what lxd is17:14
fluffywolfoh god, more fucking container nonsense.17:41
furrymcgeeit manages the overhead introduced by linuxcontainers17:46
fsmithredhow do you know that lxd is in debian?17:49
fsmithredfling, what is the actual package name?17:50
rwpI don't think lxd is actually in Debian yet.  But it appears closer now.
flingfsmithred: seen it in #lxc channel18:33
flingfsmithred: it is called lxd18:33
rwpfling, By design as soon as the package appears in Debian Unstable and Testing then it will automatically appear in Devuan Unstable and Testing.18:35
flingrwp: which devuan version to try if I want to use lxd?18:39
rwpOnce it appears then it will appear in Unstable "Ceres" which is always the top of trunk and sometimes/always/never broken.18:40
buZzlxc/oldstable 1:3.1.0+really3.0.3-8 amd6418:40
buZz  Linux Containers userspace tools18:40
buZzkeep in mind that lxd isnt really needed for lxc usage :P18:41
rwpAfter ten days if there are no release critical bugs posted against the package then it rolls into Testing.18:41
rwpSo in order to get lxd in a distro suite before the next release you would need to install Testing.18:41
rwpTesting is better than Unstable.  But sometimes has problems too.18:41
rwpIt's always good to have people running Unstable and Testing in order to have them hit bugs and then report those bugs.18:43
rwpBut as the old saying goes, if you have to ask then maybe it isn't the best suite.  When it works, it works great. When it is broken, it needs expert debug and handling.18:44
flingrwp: I'm using devuan in lxd so I can have both testing and unstale18:50
flingbuZz: sure lxc works best in lxd but I've not tried it for years and I'm not going to18:50
flingrwp: I just don't know current version numbers and names for testing and unstable :>18:51
buZzfling: cool, i dont know anyone that uses lxd for lxc18:52
buZzbut have at it18:52
fsmithredI don't see lxd in sid, looking with apt-cache search or on packages.debian.org19:01
flingok maybe they lied, going to ask19:01
rwpI am sure will be updated when it is uploaded to Unstable.19:10
dokmaAny maintainers come here?20:53
dokmaDevuan maintainers20:53
rktadokma: There are maintainers here, just ask.20:54
dokmarkta: just asking if I decide to fix my initramfs issue properly to know to come here and report20:57
dokmalong live Devuan, death to Poetterware !20:58
SymbioticFemaleis the desktop.iso (4gb) a livecd or no?21:26
fsmithredSymbioticFemale, not a live-iso21:28
fsmithredit has the devuan-installer (aka debian-installer)21:29
SymbioticFemalei need to boot to a livecd to install because i need touch screen support during the install process21:29
fsmithredit's for offline installs.21:29
SymbioticFemalethe livecd version won't boot because i don't have network access configured yet21:30
fsmithreduh, I don't know if the live-isos have touch screen support.21:30
SymbioticFemalemmmm i see21:30
fsmithred...and I'm the one who made those live isos21:30
fsmithredxfce4 desktop21:30
fsmithredwhatever comes with that.21:30
fsmithreddo you happen to know what is needed for touch?21:30
SymbioticFemalewell, i can't test whether it has or not because i just get "Certificate Vericication Failed!!! Press any key to return" when attempting to boot from UEFI21:31
fsmithredwhy do you need network for livecd?21:31
fsmithredit should boot without network and you can install the running system21:31
SymbioticFemalethis "certificate verification failed" , i presume that is network related?21:31
fsmithredwhere did you get that error?21:32
SymbioticFemalehmm maybe it is from my bios21:32
SymbioticFemalelet me play with my bios settings and try this again. be back in a few mins.21:32
fsmithredthis was during boot?21:32
SymbioticFemalei think my bios settings might have got reset. this might be from secureboot21:32
SymbioticFemalegive me some mins21:33
fsmithredkill it21:33
SymbioticFemaleouput gets stuck at "fb0: switching to inteldrmfb from EFI VGA"21:54
fsmithredwhat's your hardware?21:57
fsmithreddrm doesn't sound good21:57
SymbioticFemalexiaomi mipad 2 / x86_6421:57
SymbioticFemalei did expect it to be a stretch to install duvuan on it. was going for debian with non-free firmware but I don't have a USB hub (yet) so i can't connect a keyboard while having my install media attached21:59
fsmithredyou're not the first one to get that error message:
fsmithredhow are you planning to do an install without a keyboard?22:00
SymbioticFemalewell, if i can boot a livecd and install from within said livecd, then i can presumably use the touchscreen22:01
SymbioticFemaleotherwise i need to setup pxe or other methods that could get me a ssh connection22:02
fsmithredoh yeah, touchscreen.22:03
fsmithredwhat does that need? wacom?22:03
SymbioticFemaledon't even know yet22:03
fsmithreddamn, my Refracta isos usually have openssh-server running and accessible, but I forgot to enable password authentication in the latest set.22:04
fsmithredyou could use a beowulf-based iso, boot it, ssh in and do a debootstrap install of devuan chimaera22:05
fsmithred(refracta is just a devuan re-spin)22:05
SymbioticFemaleyeah but i need to configure the wifi too before i can ssh in lol22:05
fsmithredmine does not have non-free firmware installed, it just has the deb packages. So catch-22. no keyboard.22:06
fsmithredoh wait...22:06
SymbioticFemalei'm going to have to go back to trying to preseed the debian firmware-*.iso i think22:06
fsmithredthat one has some wireless firmware installed and a backports kernel22:07
fsmithredI'm booting that one now to make sure ssh works22:11
SymbioticFemalealright, i'm downloading and a few other things concurrently22:12
fsmithreddon't bother with the backports iso. Can't use password for ssh.22:12
SymbioticFemaledon't worry about my issue here. i'll resolve it through other means and worst case i'll just wait a few days for a USB hub22:13
fsmithredI hate being beaten by the machine.22:15
fsmithredI'm now in the process of updating the backports iso.22:20
fsmithrednewer kernel, allow ssh access, newer policykit-122:20
fsmithredand whatever else22:20
fsmithredat the rate we're going, I'll probably get it all ready and it'll turn out that you have one of the broadcom chips that require internet access to get the wireless driver.22:21
SymbioticFemaleyeah i don't know that it is going to go that far to be honest22:22
SymbioticFemalecurrently i'm taking it apart because it got stuck at the manufacturer logo on restart22:22
SymbioticFemalegotta disconnect the battery now22:22
SymbioticFemalei really stress that it is not worth your time here22:23
fsmithredlibts0 for touchscreen22:26
fsmithredthat's ok. I now know that for only 300kb I can make people's touchscreens work.22:28
SymbioticFemaleubuntu seems to be installing with its "safe graphics" option. it'll do for testing until i get a hub or figure out how I'm going to install something more permanent.23:09
SymbioticFemalethe touch screen in fact works in their installer and they even came up with an on-screen keyboard which works for some things (but not passwords).... however copy+paste worked to fill in the password slot23:10

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