libera/#devuan/ Thursday, 2022-10-13

FilipZHi! I was there some time before, and asked about a help with the bugged wireless software. I use currently the wpa_gui to connect. I think I have 2 at least partially separate issues, where one kills the wireless software until the system is restarted, and the second causes my wireless software to repeatedly disconnect and connect with the Wi-Fi. I decided to leave fixing of the first, bigger issue, for later as it seemed to be to06:36
FilipZ to resolve, and I would like to at least fix the second issue for now. It looks to me like wpa_gui gets in conflict with itself, as every time when it happens, there appear 4 processes called: 1. "dhclient -4 -v -i -pf /run/ -If /var/lib/dhcp/dhclient.wlan0.leases -I -df /var/lib/dhcp/dhclient6.wlan0.leases wlan0"; 2. "sh -c CLIENT="-i"; /sbin/dhclient -4 -v $CLIENT -pf /run/ -If /var/lib/dhcp/d06:36
FilipZt.wlan0.leases -I -df /var/lib/dhcp/dhclient6.wlan0.leases wlan0"; 3. "ifup -v --force wlanO=default"; 4. "wpa_action wlan0 CONNECTED"; and after this 4 another processes: 1. "dhclient -4 -v -i -r -pf /run/ -If /var/lib/dhcp/dhclient.wlan0.leases -I -df /var/lib/dhcp/dhclient6.wlan0.leases wlan0"; 2. "sh -c CLIENT="-i"; /sbin/dhclient -4 -v $CLIENT -r -pf /run/ -If /var/lib/dhcp/dhclient.wlan0.le06:36
FilipZI -df /var/lib/dhcp/dhclient6.wlan0.leases wlan0"; 3. "ifdown -v wlan0"; 4. "wpa_action wlan0 DISCONNECTED". Those processes are created, and closed repeatedly as the Wi-Fi is connected, and disconnected, until I eventually do "ifdown --force wlan0", except that dhclient processes accumulate over time while it happens. After "ifdown --force wlan0", then closing the dhclient processes, and then using "ifup wlan0", the issue is tempo06:36
FilipZ fixed. What could be causing this behavior, and how could I fix that?06:36
chomwittin daedalus trying a 'apt-get upgrade' i see hundred of packages kept back. why that is happening10:43
gnarfacechomwitt: expected behavior from time to time with testing and unstable11:46
gnarfacebasically what's happening is a package is broken somewhere and you're being protected form it11:46
gnarface*from it11:46
gnarfaceusually it'll pass unless you've already installed something broken before this11:46
gnarfacewell, "broken" may be an oversimplification, i think it can also happen if you still have something installed from a previous distro that has been obsoleted by something new11:47
gnarfaceyou can easily tell if it's this second case though by comparing the difference between "upgrade" and "dist-upgrade"11:48
gnarfacedist-upgrade will just uninstall the obsolete packages to make way for the new ones11:48
gnarfaceif whatever they're migrating to is not done yet though this could leave your system in an even more broken state, so i'd recommend against actually doing it11:49
gnarfaceor at least make a full backup first11:49
gnarfacei don't know anything specific about this particular issue, just reciting relevant experience from past incidents11:50
chomwittgnarface, thanks15:25
rwpchomwitt, In addition to that... New packages will want new dependencies. When running Testing one must run "apt-get upgrade", followed by "apt-get upgrade --with-new-pkgs", those are both _safe_ in that they will not remove anything.17:19
rwpchomwitt, And then after those have install new packages then *try carefully* "apt-get dist-upgrade" reviewing the solution and approving only if reasonable.17:19
rwpIn Testing and Unstable as gnarface noted there are often migrations and transitions where the repository is in a transition state and not yet ready.17:20
rwpAfter "upgrade", "upgrade --with-new-pkgs", "dist-upgrade", then purge off old dependencies no longer needed with "autoremove --purge".17:21
rwpReview older removals now forgotten but still clinging on with "dpkg -l | grep ^rc".  And transitions "dpkg -l | grep -e transition -e dummy".17:22
chomwittrwp, why should i do the dist-upgrade step?17:31
chomwitti have devuan daedalus which is testing i think17:32
gnarfaceyes, daedalus is testing, and you'd still have to dist-upgrade occasionally to stay with it. in the process of being testing, old packages from chimaera (current stable) are being replaced with new ones for daedalus17:37
gnarfacebut the regular "upgrade" mode will try hard to preserve functionality by blocking removal of anything that would break abi compatibility with anything else17:38
chomwittgnarface, thanks! i wasnt aware of that17:38
rwpEven in Stable some upgrades require dist-upgrade.  Have had security upgrades get recompiled with newer shared libraries.17:39
gnarfaceyea i think you usually need dist-upgrade to replace a kernel too don't you?17:41
rwpYes.  Some kernel security upgrades replace the existing kernel rather than upgrade it.  (I do not approve.)  And that requires removing the previous pkg version.17:42
rwpSome people always use dist-upgrade for everything.  That is possible to work.  But the tangle of packages can be HUGE.  Too huge to review.17:44
gnarfacethere's some rules i've observed, like if you manually request something to be installed explicitly in the previous release then any packages that would cause it to be removed in the next release need a dist-upgrade or they'll be held back too17:44
rwpAnd if people blindly dist-upgrade with Testing and Unstable and then just say Yes do it, then often that will REMOVE half the system.  Bad time!17:44
gnarfaceyea sometimes they don't actually have a workable solution in the repo, you really gotta pay attention to the removals before you let them happen17:45
rwpTherefore I always do the safe operations first (upgrade, upgrade --with-new-pkgs) to reduce the amount of review needed with dist-upgrade.17:45
rwpRegarding your comment about autoremove, there is a flag noting if the package was pulled in explicitly or as a dependency.17:46
rwpRun: apt-mark showmanual17:47
rwpThose are explicitly installed packages.  Those will never be candidates for "autoremove".17:47
rwpThese flags can be changed using apt-mark such as "apt-mark auto foo" will mark foo as being automatically installed by dependency rather than by explicit manual action.  Making it a candidate for autoremove again.17:48
rwpSometimes in Testing and Unstable when the repos is in an unsafe transition condition but I do want something anyway I will craft things by using "apt-mark hold foo" to prevent it from being a candidate for remove.  Then repeat the dist-upgrade review.  Then hold another.  Review.  And then eventually get a solution I want.17:49
rwpThen after that remove the temporary holds that I just applied.  Don't forget that step!17:50
rwpCan unhold everything all at once: apt-mark unhold $(apt-mark showhold)17:50
rwpI prefer doing this with apt-mark and apt-get but this "crafting" of hinted solutions is what people who like aptitude tell me they like about aptitude because aptitude has an interactive solver mode.  But I could never get comfortable with aptitude.17:52
chomwittso if i understand correctly the hundred list packages as 'kept back' could be because apt-get upgrade is not allowed to remove some packages or install new ones thus not being able to upgrade some installed ones ?17:58
djphor they have conflicting dependencies now (so "don't touch")17:59
chomwittso should i try now the dist-upgrade ?17:59
gnarfacedid you make a backup?17:59
gnarfaceyou should really make a backup18:00
chomwitti have 'back in time' taking care of the directories i want but not of my whole system18:01
gnarfacewell there's a real risk of making a mess you can't clean up18:05
chomwittone parenthetical question : why lsb_release says i have Devuan GNU/Linux 5 (daedalus/ceres)  and not Devuan GNU/Linux 5 (daedalus) ?18:06
chomwittgnarface, do you take backups of you whole system i mean like images ?18:06
gnarfaceas i understand it, it's because testing is forked from unstable after the previous testing goes stable and the previous stable goes to oldstable18:07
gnarfacei do take full disk image backups of some systems, i try to at least save the package list with the others18:08
chomwittgnarface, what image backup utility do you use ?18:13
gnarfacetar or dd as appropriate18:14
gnarfacemysqldump for databases...18:14
chomwittgnarface, i see . you prefer to stay close to command line . thanks also for answering the parenthetical question18:15
gnarfaceyea i don't like backups to be fancy, it's bad luck18:16
msiismrsync also makes a pretty good tool for backups.18:18
msiismAt least for a certain kind of backup.18:18
gnarfaceyou can save a lot of time with rsync in theory if you do it right18:20
gnarfacebut it's not easy to learn18:20
msiismI use rsync for my daily backup and then something else that does snapshots, from time to time.18:20
msiismThe results are presented in kind of a weird order here.18:24
rwpchomwitt, Re: "daedalus/ceres" instead of "daedalus".  It's because Daedalus is Testing now.  Testing is NOT RELEASED.  Testing is a release candidate.18:58
rwpStable is like when the wait staff bring food to your table at a restaurant.19:01
rwpTesting is like walking into the kitchen and sampling the food while it is being plated.19:01
rwpUnstable is like following the chef around and sampling the food while it is being cooked.19:01
rwpchomwitt, If you pastebin the upgrade and dist-upgrade output we could give a review opinion on it.19:03
chomwittrwp, i liked the cooking analogy19:35
plasma41Debian has announced the eventual name of Debian 14, due for release in ~2027: Forky20:26
plasma41The jokes write themselves :-P20:26
bb|hcbThe should have choosen spoony, so devuan could become forky ;)20:30
plasma41Devuan 7 "F____" will be the next release since Devuan 3 "Beowulf" to share the same first letter as the corresponding Debian release.20:36
fluffywolfso how long do we have to get a minor planet renamed to forky so we can use it too?  :P20:56
fsmithredfluffywolf, maybe three years.22:13
fsmithredI'm bad at math. More like five years.22:15
fsmithredbad at typing, too.22:15

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