libera/#devuan/ Thursday, 2023-04-13

clemens3i am on linux from scratch on build my own browser, and finally with rust nightmare building from source i gave up on firefox.. now on falkon only, and so far so good16:17
sixwheeledbeastI suggested Librewolf a little while ago. It honestly seems an improvement, all the things they change I do to FF anyway.16:22
nemoclemens3: I'm still building seamonkey from scratch on my gentoo machine.18:06
nemoclemens3: my only rust issue on that one was gentoo not packaging the 32 bit rust at one point, so I had to use rustup18:06
nemonot a problem recently though18:07
nemothe actual build happened pretty much seamlessly, but that's probably a credit to gentoo's build scripts18:07
nemomy recollection is all of mozilla's build scripts tend to be a bit nightmarish even when working off of their instructions on MDN18:07
nemosixwheeledbeast: do you build librewolf from scratch?18:08
nemobecause otherwise that doesn't really solve his build issues18:08
nemosince it's pretty much just sensible privacy and security defaults18:08
nemoclemens3: one funny thing is the machine I'm building seamonkey on has only a gig of ram ☺  so builds are not fast.18:09
nemoso. question for devuan devs that confuses me a bit18:10
nemoIf you go to  you see that Chimæra 4.0 is the current stable release.18:10
nemoit links to this very old release announcement.
nemowhich claims 4.0 is based off of bullseye 11.118:10
nemonow... bullseye is on 11.6 at this point, with 11.7 in the works18:11
nemodoes that mean chimæra is on ... 4.5?18:11
nemoand the frontpage just hasn't been updated?18:11
nemoalso, while I'm asking about releases.  there was a hard freeze for debian 12 recently that probably helps stability quite a bit.  I was curious if that had made it into devuan yet18:12
nemo... and I guess both of these questions would probably go to fsmithred who seems most knowledgeable about packaging and releases ☺18:13
nemoso I guess the TLDR for fsmithred would be... "Is Chimæra *really* still on 4.0" and "Is Dædalus safe to use routinely, esp as a remote machine"18:25
nemoFatPhil: WRT firefox becoming unusably slow... what does about:support have to say about your graphics? also are you using X11 forwarding/xrdp?18:26
nemoFatPhil: also probably easiest way to downgrade would just be to download a zip off the mozilla website ☺18:26
nemoprobably not a good idea security-wise though, probably better to fix the slowness18:27
FatPhilnemo: alas I can't pull up the old browser, as it was purged on the downgrade18:29
fsmithrednemo, yes, chimaera is really on 4.0.0 and the fact that the live-isos are 4.0.2 was because the first two builds were screwed up.18:30
nemointeresting.  but 4.0.0 is presumably now 11.6 and not 11.118:31
fsmithredand yes, daedalus seems to be very usable. If you wait a few minutes, I can tell you when I last updated my daedalus and how many updates there were. I'm guessing it's below 40 packages per day by now.18:31
fsmithredI meant 50.18:31
nemoI'm surprised it's that many at this point18:31
nemoFatPhil: well. probably for the best. so your existing unusably slow one. what dos about:support have to say about graphics?18:32
fsmithrednetinstall always gets you the latest packages, and you can do that with any of the installer isos. (I know you already know that, but I'm mentioning it anyway. Someone else might need to know.)18:32
nemofsmithred: ah. right. that would be the only issue with not rereleasing chimæra - you wouldn't get the latest on non-net.18:33
nemowhich I guess could be a bit of a pain if at some point between 11.0 and 11.6 there were some driver fixes to, say, network drivers ☺18:33
nemoprobably rather unlikely though18:34
fsmithredand point-releases actually require a lot of work outside of just making new isos.18:34
nemofair 'nuff18:35
fsmithredon a slow connection here - apt update will take a few minutes.18:35
nemobasically I want hg fa --deleted 'cause it's awesomesauce, but I didn't have it on my devuan VM at work ☺18:36
nemoand there's a big version jump in hg between chimæra and dædalus18:36
fsmithredwow. only 66 packages to upgrade in daedalus. Last upgrade was 02 Apr18:37
FatPhilnemo: it's very noisy output, lots of references to webrender, mesa, haswell, not much of it means much to me.18:40
FatPhiloh, I'm getting proper herpyderpy - my open tabs were all in my palemoon, not my firefox (they ran in parallel, don't ask). However, with X copy/paste it matters not one whit!18:45
FatPhilif I can actually get it to work - the firefox on the remote machine has pulled up a restore session tab, I clicked through, and the old tabs appeared, but the browser's now  not responding at all (30 seconds since I clicked on a tab, and nothing yet)18:47
FatPhiloooh, the tab bit of the tab has changed colour, I presume this will be sloooooow....18:49
brocashelmfsmithred: i enabled ceres just to continue getting routine updates whenever possible, plus seeing some packages i like just entered that19:07
fsmithredIt turned out that I only got 55 updates. 12 packages were held back.19:08
nemoFatPhil: remote machine. so you are using ssh -Y perhaps?  or XRDP?19:31
nemoFatPhil: or VNC?19:32
FatPhilI'm just using ssh -X, I don't know -Y19:33
FatPhilone of the tabs I restored was animated, so that's probably to blame. I've just returned from the shops and will now attempt to kill it19:34
FatPhilstrangely, the remote firefox is using next to zero CPU on either machine, but it's not rendering the tabs with any haste at all.19:35
FatPhilHowever, copy-paste of URLs has worked between remote and local browsers once, so proof of concept is a success19:36
nemoFatPhil: ok.  then19:36
nemoFatPhil: I ran into this many many years ago19:36
nemoFatPhil: if you're connecting between machines that are entirely yours, ssh -Y is more likely to not break things since it is trusted.19:37
nemoheh. my first comment in that bug is 7 years ago ☺19:38
nemoFatPhil: the one concern is they've been talking about removing it for years which sucks19:40
FatPhilit looks like -Y won't change anything, but -C could do, I'll reconnect...19:41
nemoFatPhil: no. I mean. try flipping that pref flag19:42
nemoFatPhil: it might possibly still work if they haven't stripped xrender support19:42
nemo-C only helps on slow networks19:42
nemo another bug discussing this19:42
nemootherwise, welp... vnc...19:42
nemobut yeah, it totally broke xrdp firefox which was annoying19:42
FatPhilmy network is 100Mb/s, and the machines currently share a hub.19:44
FatPhilsshd is now hammering away at the CPU!19:44
phoggI love seeing a regression closed as WONTFIX without explanation19:47
FatPhilnemo: I did -YC, and it did seem nippier after an initial lockup. I managed to copy over all the tabs to the new machine's browser.19:47
FatPhilnow for the palemoon, with 10x as many tabs, wish me luck...19:47
FatPhilphogg: I imagine a response of "Solution: don't use firefox over network"19:48
nemoFatPhil: well.  vnc will work... and I imagine wayland's crude "copy over a bitmap" will work too19:51
FatPhilreading down that 2nd bug report now, it's screaming "firefox is treating its window as a framebuffer and thus will require complete redraws after changes" to me.19:51
FatPhil(Of course, it will actually use dirty rectangles)19:51
nemoFatPhil: well, yeah, firefox has to do that for websites. it has its own very complex rendering layer19:51
FatPhil((I hope!))19:52
nemoFatPhil: but. it was reasonably usable remotely with xrender. no longer though19:52
nemoFatPhil: and so long as you can still enable that pref to turn on xrender ssh -YC should still mostly work19:52
nemoonce they get rid of xrender completely we are SOL19:52
nemoapart from vnc19:52
FatPhilnot sure what xrender is, or where the option is19:52
nemoFatPhil: it's mentioned in the first bug I sent you19:52
nemolike. at the top19:52
FatPhilthey canna take our xrendas!19:53
nemoThe pref is "gfx.xrender.enabled"19:53
FatPhilthe first one was written from a perspective of someone who already knew what was going on!19:53
nemobut again. all this is 7 years old at this time.  who knows if xrender is still maintained19:53
nemofirefox has had a *lot* of rendering layers over the years19:54
nemoI guess I could update my m-c checkout to see if the pref actually does anything anymore19:55
FatPhilthere's no reference to xrender on the remote browser's about:support. there is this: "Compositing WebRender (Software)"19:55
nemobut frankly by the time I've done that you'll have probably fixed it already19:55
nemoFatPhil: yeah... it's an about:config prf19:56
nemoyou can also manually add it to prefs.ini19:56
nemowhich avoids pain of using a broken UI remotely19:56
nemoer. prefs.js  sorry19:56
nemonemo@nautilus ~/.mozilla/seamonkey $ grep xrender */prefs.js19:57
nemouser_pref("gfx.xrender.enabled", true);19:57
FatPhilthere's no gfx.xrender in about:config19:57
nemoit's a hidden pref these days19:57
nemoit has to be manually added19:57
nemonow whether it actually *does* anything anymore...19:57
nemoFatPhil: the other thing you could experiment with, if this fails horribly, is to disable webrender... it might be that other layers perform better in software emulation than webrender19:58
FatPhilAs long as I avoid "live" webpages, everything seems to be working nicely now.20:03
FatPhilthere's no reason for me to want to access those on a remote machine, so it's an official CLOSED/NOTAPROBLEM20:04
nemoFatPhil: for sure20:04
nemoFatPhil: ok. you might want to install noscript/umatrix/adblock  on the remote machine20:04
nemowhich helps tons with websites with video crap20:04
nemoFatPhil: so... if you want this to keep working, maybe you could comment on the bug that this was a useful fix for you20:05
FatPhilthe reason I was running both palemoon and firefox was to kinda sandbox the "live" pages in the more modern browser that needed them. 90% of my crap is PlainOldText(TM)20:05
nemoI'm always worried they'll go back someday and strip it out thinking no one cares anymore20:05
nemoFatPhil: ah... I don't trust palemoon to stay sufficiently patched20:05
nemoplus, I like most of the recent firefox features with a few exceptions20:06
nemoFatPhil: plain old text I use tmux + w3m ☺20:06
nemoI have like a dozen tabs open in w3m right now20:06
FatPhilhmmm, is the setting "gfx.xrender = true" or "gfx.xrender.enabled;true" ?20:06
FatPhilI didn't add the .enabled to the thing I added, perhaps I'm not even using it!20:07
nemoFatPhil: see my grep above20:08
nemowell who knows if it does anything20:08
FatPhilawww - the palemoon with 8 windows and ~40 tabs is running as sweet as a sweet thing!20:39
FatPhil(remotely, that is, over ssh -YC)20:39
FatPhildragging the corner to resize a window with nothing but simply-marked-up text is as quick as a local window20:40
FatPhilAll hail network transparency!20:40
FatPhilOK, some niggly niggles with the browser, I'll take that to off-topic20:47
nemoFatPhil: well. unfortunately the reason palemoon is working is due to just how old it is. so god knows what vulnerabilities it has20:49
nemobut. yes. I do love being able to work on stuff remotely like that20:49
FatPhilwith noscript (set to everything off unless I'm 100% sure) and adblock, my attack surface is pretty small.20:51
nemoFatPhil: that does help... as long as they patch codecs, ssl and whatnot.21:03
FatPhilno codecs needed - I'm a yt-dlp/mplayer guy21:25
FatPhilof course, a gif-of-death might kill me21:26
rwpI had to convert from mplayer to mpv due to practicality of mpv working and mplayer not working and not being alive anymore.22:51

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