libera/#devuan/ Saturday, 2023-05-27

latexit worked but it's borked now00:01
latexMaybe I need to restart00:01
latexI installed pipewire, the uninstalled it, installed jack, pulseaudio00:01
latexLots of things00:01
gnarfaceif the last time it worked was before updating to daedalus completely, also try removing the mumble client config00:02
gnarfacecould just be choking on an old version of its own config00:02
latexI wiped mumble config several times00:02
gnarfacetried other servers? could be the server is out of date too...00:02
latexI host the server00:03
gnarfaceoh, hmmm00:04
gnarfacealright, you're probably right then it's probably about whatever you did to your audio stack00:04
gnarfacehey appz_, it's a slow channel so just ask your questions00:19
gnarfacesomeone will answer eventually00:19
latexwhich file does display managers and/or XFCE run when startup?00:35
latex.profile and .bash_profile never get ran00:35
latexidk why00:35
latexso which file does get ran?00:35
latexwhich file should I write all the logic into instead?00:35
latexThe logic to start my jack server00:36
gnarfacelatex: yes, i'm aware that some of the desktop environments are exceptionally badly behaved and don't run the shell startup scripts because they wrongfully believe they're not actually a shell. in those cases the desktop usually has its own built-in startup services feature. (i recommend you just add your bash profile to that)00:37
gnarface(it probably won't be a file, it will probably be a graphical menu, but i'm not sure if that's always the case)00:40
latexalso how do I make bash/shell run a command and then if the shell gets closed the command keeps running no matter what00:42
latexdisown doesn't work00:42
hagbardnohup is what you want00:43
latexidk it behaves weird00:44
latexomg it works00:45
AfdalDoes fail2ban depend on systemd?01:09
Afdalwhat the heck?01:09
AfdalThe following additional packages will be installed:01:12
Afdal  python3-systemd01:12
Afdalwhat is this...01:12
gnarfacemaybe it just comes with systemd startup files for free?01:16
FatPhilAfdal: fail2ban does not depend on shystermd01:29
FatPhilfail2ban may have become so over-engineered that I have promised myself I will rewrite a back-to-basics version. But my criticism of it was never the poettering cancer01:31
Afdalwhat's this python3 dependency then01:31
Afdalwith systemd in its name01:32
FatPhillennart's not python01:32
FatPhilPython's fucking microsoft!01:32
AfdalSo is Poettering!01:33
FatPhilAdd dollar symbols to that insult if you need. (Oh, and OT chat should be in #devuan-offtopic)01:34
gnarfaceAfdal: there's lots of systemd cruft still in the distro. whatever it is, it's probably harmless. you can check the package file contents with: dpkg -L python3-systemd01:34
FatPhilAfdal: good catch01:35
FatPhiloooh, I just threw up a little in my mouth01:35
FatPhil----> OT01:35
Afdalso umm01:36
AfdalIf u don't mind me asking here01:36
AfdalWhat are some sane settings for fail2ban?01:36
gnarfaceAfdal: you sure that package is even required? i don't even have it installed here, but i use "--no-install-recommends"01:36
AfdalIt's a dependency according to apt01:36
gnarfacewhat happens if you run a simulated removal, what else gets removed?01:37
Afdalumm, apparently just python3-systemd01:39
Afdalno complaint about package breakage01:39
AfdalI'm really confused01:39
gnarfaceby default, apt will also install "recommended" dependencies01:39
AfdalThis was required to install but raises no issues when removed?01:39
gnarfacedebian sets what is "recommended"01:39
gnarfaceyou can disable it01:39
FatPhilAfdal: the defaults are pretty sane for f2b, but make sure you enable the relevant ones.01:41
FatPhilI've just had to add an extra filter to my non-standard ssh ports, but that's because I use non-standard ports through my firewall machine.01:42
Afdalhow do you do that?01:42
gnarfaceAfdal: you can just tell sshd what port to use from the same config file01:43
Afdaloh I already do that01:43
Afdalerr, "same config file"?01:43
Afdalsame as what01:44
AfdalOh, a fail2ban config file?01:44
FatPhilI just edited /etc/fail2ban/filter.d/sshd.conf and added a line for "Bad protocol version identification" errors01:44
FatPhilsome idiot bot was hitting my ssh ports with httpd attacks01:45
FatPhiland another with gawd-knows-what attacks01:45
gnarfaceAfdal: no, sorry, i misread that, the file would be /etc/ssh/sshd_config01:45
AfdalYeah I already ahve sshd_config setup01:45
AfdalI've just procrastinated setting up fail2ban for a while01:45
FatPhilit's part of my default install now. however, I want to rewrite my own01:46
nm0iAfdal: probably dependency for one fail2bans filters.01:46
AfdalI can't imagine fail2ban is a very complex program01:51
FatPhilback in 2003 it was simple, and then the decades turned (I made all that up)01:52
FatPhilcreature feep is a real thing01:53
AfdalThis seems really complicated to configure :(01:55
Afdalso many config files01:55
AfdalIs jail.conf the right file to edit or does Devuan try to do some overwriting of its own01:56
AfdalOr am I supposed to edit stuff in jail.d/ instead02:12
AfdalI guess I'll just follow this digitalocean guide02:14
AfdalThey usually have good guides... usually...02:15
FatPhilI haven't worked out the best way of configuring it apart from just adding new rules/02:48
FatPhilit's the best solution to the problem until I write my own02:49
onefangMy problem with fail2ban is that it ... fails to ban.  Unless I write my own rules for it.02:50
jiggawattare you guys excited for the DEBIAN 12 release?06:19
fluffywolfno, we're excited for the devuan 5 release.06:19
jiggawattthat doesn't include systemd though07:30
AfdalPretty sure turnaround between releases this time07:55
AfdalWhat's up with that07:55
Afdalpretty short*07:55
onefangEnter old password:08:24
temp64Hi, just installed Daedalus with OpenRC and looking at the scripts in /etc/init.d, they seem to be different from what OpenRC docs describe14:16
temp64I'm trying to write a script that would load a bunch of files onto tmpfs at startup and back them up when shutting down14:16
temp64Where do I begin?14:16
fsmithredtemp64, openrc in debian and devuan uses sysvinit scripts by default. I don't know anything about openrc scripts, but there are a few people who hang out on the forum who use openrc. Search for relevant discussions at
fsmithredand also stay logged in here - someone may answer later14:19
temp64that explains a lot14:20
temp64i'm a bit confused though, i see both /etc/runlevels and /etc/rc#.d directories. if i were to write a sysvinit script, should it be configured with update-rc.d or rc-update?14:41
fsmithredupdate-rc.d is used for sysvinit scripts. It creates the links to the rc.N directories14:56
hacksenwerkWhat is the equivalent of systemctl suspend on devuan?18:14
hacksenwerkI ran daedalus live to secure erase a ssd and I need to chnage its frozen status.18:14
hacksenwerkIs there any?18:21
buZzdoesnt systemctl suspend affect the system18:23
buZzand not the ssd?18:23
buZzi dont know what it does18:23
buZzfor suspending to disk, i use 'echo disk > /sys/power/state'18:24
buZzaka 'hibernating'18:24
sixwheeledbeastpm-suspend if you have pm-utils?18:25
buZz'echo mem > /sys/power/state' for suspend to ram18:27
hacksenwerkbuZz: it is a proper way to hcnage the frozen status of an ssd18:27
buZzhacksenwerk: whats a 'frozen status of a ssd' ?18:28
hacksenwerkbuZz: it bloocks you from doing a secure erase18:28
buZzhow so?18:28
hacksenwerkI don't know. :)18:28
buZzoh, something in SMART?18:28
hacksenwerkwhen you run hdparm -I /some/device you can see at the bottom some atributes18:29
buZz                supported: enhanced erase18:29
hacksenwerkTo do a secure erase the ssd must not be frozen, locked18:29
buZzi guess those?18:30
hacksenwerkyes that must be there too18:30
hacksenwerkand therefor you must set a password first (don't ask me why xD)18:30
buZzhonestly never cared enough for any of this :D18:30
buZzi dont sell used storage devices, i store them 'forever' :P18:30
hacksenwerkbuZz: it is the only way to delete a ssd18:30
buZzi dont delete them, i keep them18:30
temp64managed to figure out my openrc tmpfs backup and i feel like i wasted way too much time on it:
hacksenwerkor pull out all its charge i guess xD18:31
onefangGrinders and volcanoes work just as well.  B-)18:31
hacksenwerkonefang: lol18:31
buZzonefang: haha indeed18:31
hacksenwerkI wouldn't sell mine too, even not after a secure erase. I don't trust flash storages.18:31
buZzthen why are you doing this?18:32
hacksenwerkBecause of course there can be blocks marked as bad or reserved and not get erased anyway.18:32
buZzi mean, whats the gain?18:32
hacksenwerkMaybe someone will get this ssd someday.18:32
buZzso you are selling it?18:33
buZzor at least, transferring ownership of it18:33
hacksenwerkI secure erase it and then leave it unplugged and hopefully it will get totally uncharged18:33
hacksenwerkbuZz: no.18:33
buZzeh, no, it wont ever loose its 'charge'18:33
buZzNAND without charge is just dead18:33
hacksenwerkbut how can you know what happens tomorrow or in the next seconds. ;)18:33
hacksenwerkbuZz: All ssd lose charge some quick some need more time and your data will be lost18:34
hacksenwerkThat's the main reason why they suck.18:34
buZzlol, ok buddy18:34
buZztry a 30 year old SD card18:34
buZzthey'll have data :)18:34
buZzsame tech18:34
hacksenwerkbuZz: I don't have any, they die before getting 30 years old...18:34
hacksenwerknah it is not the same tech18:35
buZzyes, NAND is the same tech as NAND18:35
hacksenwerkan ssd is not only NAND there is more hardware in it :p18:35
buZzthe FLASH is NAND18:35
buZzjust like a SD card18:35
buZzbtw SD card has a controller internally too18:35
hacksenwerkanyway you have a 30 years sd card?18:36
buZzyeah, 32MB etc18:36
hacksenwerkand unplugged it 30 years ago18:36
hacksenwerkI wouldn't trust electric storage, no matter what kind.18:36
hacksenwerkI even do not trust my HDD with CMR18:36
buZzpen and paper is cool18:36
hacksenwerkThat's a reliable source and it is proved over a long time.18:37
hacksenwerkAnd crafting art too.18:37
buZzalexandria probably has a different stance ;)18:37
hacksenwerkIf everything goes worse we will be the first culture that left nearly no information to future generations.18:38
hacksenwerkExcept plastic trash everywhere, wow we are so damn cool...18:38 is cool18:38
hacksenwerkbut non-digital archives are better18:39
buZzare you a paying member of your local library?18:39
hacksenwerkgraving things onto some ceramic plates and store it in a mountain for example18:40
hacksenwerkbuZz: sure18:40
hacksenwerkand you?18:40
buZzits free here18:40
buZzgov pays18:40
hacksenwerkYeah it is free here too18:40
buZzthey do fundraising every now and then, but i dont really care much for it18:40
hacksenwerkYou can got there and read everything, listen to music even gaming18:40
hacksenwerkBut if you want to take it home you need to pay a bit18:40
buZzthey dont really have a cool collection anyway18:40
hacksenwerkbut it is very cheap18:40
hacksenwerkI pay 12€ a year18:41
hacksenwerkand can also use a very cool streaming service18:41
hacksenwerksimilar to netflix but more focused on independent and older productions, but not only18:41
hacksenwerkwe are in #devuan18:42
hacksenwerkbuZz: -> #devuan-offtopic18:42
hacksenwerksixwheeledbeast: I will try pm-utils thank you18:43
sixwheeledbeastif you don't care about damage just shred it.18:45
hacksenwerkpm-suspend works18:48
hacksenwerkbut I think echo mem > /sys/power/state is even better because I do not need to install any additional stuff :)18:49
hacksenwerkbuZz: Thanks for that command18:49
buZzyw ;)18:49
hacksenwerkAnd I found out another way: close the lid xD18:51
hacksenwerkBut that is something I don't want by default for my Installation of devuan18:52
hacksenwerkOn the live it is default too18:52
hacksenwerk*minimal live system18:52
hacksenwerkBut the live system is awesome, I love it!18:53
hacksenwerkIt is so fast.18:54
hacksenwerkOnly thing I need to figure out again how to change the keybpoard layout, because I mostly forgot the places where what is on the us layout.18:55
hacksenwerk- is / but where is ' ?18:55
buZz' is next to return18:56
djph? is /, ' is "18:56
djphwait, that doesn't help non-us, nvm :/18:56
hacksenwerkI use this when I get in trouble:
hacksenwerkbuZz: My english lacks sometime... return _is_ enter19:06
hacksenwerkI thought it was Backspace because in german Backspace is called Rücktaste. And the word return can be translated with Rückkehr... language confusion stuff x)19:08
hacksenwerkWord Twister Party in my head.19:08
buZzyeah german really limited itself by not using international terms for international things19:08
hacksenwerksure :p19:09
buZzstore that on your fastplatter19:09
hacksenwerkfastplatter = Festplatte? :)19:13
hacksenwerkFest = Hard, Platte = plate ;D19:14
buZzyeah it doesnt have to be accurate19:14
hacksenwerkJust enough accurate to confuse someone.19:15
hacksenwerkbuZz: I remember reading, about that decharging of flash storages. It can be that all your files are still there, but they are maybe compromised, damaged whatever. I think best choice is to hash everything on a flash storage, before store it somewhere and differ the hashes before suing it again.19:29
hacksenwerkor suing x)19:30
hacksenwerk"Please SSD give me my data back!"19:30
buZzwatch this talk ;
buZzits really good and indepth19:32
hacksenwerkbuZz: hmm... that youtube link is broken. Here's is a reliable one and it is also google free:
temp64where can i find guides on packaging my own stuff?20:08
temp64or rather, should i just follow debian tutorials and assume most things work the same on devuan?20:09
buZztemp64: indeed, its 99.999% the same20:11
rpgguest7098this might be more of a "#devuan-user" question but have any of you managed to get firefox-esr to see a microphone or alsa loopback device withour PA?  i was hoping apulse might help but that seems output-only.20:35
golinuxgolinux has never used PA for anything22:09
golinuxsince jessie22:09
debdoghow does one listen to music without a power amplifier?22:11
ted-iousIs devuan going to move to pipewire by default?22:16
debdogoopsie, delete my message. I thought I were talking in #OT22:18
fsmithredted-ious, we inherit everything from debian that doesn't require systemd. (inherit = use unchanged)22:29
fsmithred(including their servers)22:30
gnarfacerpgguest7098: i wasn't able to figure it out either. i'm not sure it's possible. do you see any error?22:40
rpgguest7098gnarface: no firefox just doesn't support alsa microphone/input, and apulse doesn't provide it.  somebody got to get down and fix it22:46
rpgguest7098alternately it'd be nice to have a client for this webrtc screencasting that doesn't require a full browser, but that's a big stack of obscure undocumented and new tech22:47
gnarfacerpgguest7098: weird though, because pulseaudio is supposed to emulate alsa for this type of thing, so it's weird that one would work but not the other22:47
gnarface(seeing the same problem here myself, but i have a lot of driver issues plaguing me typically so i can't always be sure it's not just my problem)22:48
rpgguest7098i'll see if the apulse author has any thoughts22:48
gnarfaceif you can get him to tell you how to make apulse work for full duplex that'd be sweet too22:48
gnarfacei'm assuming it just isn't that complex though22:49
gnarfacei would also want apulse to mimic the network-streaming feature of pulseaudio that Steam relies on for remote-play but i'm sure that's asking more of it than it is capable of delivering22:49
gnarfaceand btw, for whatever it's worth, for firefox-esr on daedalus i still don't need pulseaudio or apulse for output22:51
rpgguest7098right, at least for output, firefox can do alsa. they just didn't implement input.22:51
gnarfacethey would have had to literally write extra code to block it, but nothing would surprise me about them these days22:53
gnarfaceyou don't happen to be using the snd-hda-intel driver for audio do you?22:53
rpgguest7098i am not22:54
rpgguest7098i've setup alsa for loopback.  very handy22:54
gnarfacesomeone did teach me how to use the loopback device to substitute the network play feature for Steam but it hasn't proven useful for this22:55
rpgguest7098it'd be nice if alsamixer could mute those loopback inputs.  maybe there's a way22:57
gnarfacei'm not sure that there's not22:57
gnarfacenever needed to22:58
gnarfacedo they show up in alsamixer -c #?22:58
gnarfaceinteresting. they show up for me with a volume control for output but no mute and no controls on input at all22:59
rpgguest7098oh i was wrong. if you F6 select sound card you get a volume for loopback device22:59
gnarfacevolume but no mute toggle, and no input control at all though. i wonder if you could use the softvol plugin to force a mute control on them?23:00
rpgguest7098mute would be nice yes23:00

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