libera/#devuan/ Sunday, 2023-07-16

darwini booted Devuan 4 full desktop amd64 installer, and selected 'install', but then it did broken/unreadable graphics with my ASUS Radeon RX 6900 XT, and earlier tonight I tried out the Devuan 5rc4 installer and same happened :(  I have no problem with more stable stuff like *BSD & Slackware which don't try to force a graphics mode thing in the middle of an install... however they're getting behind in hardware support so I want to try Devuan 512:27
darwinit's been a while since I used Debian (around 1998 - 2002) so I need a full installer that lets me choose package sets or whatever you call them now.  What's the next step to debug the Devuan 5rc4 installer or have an option it doesn't change graphics mode in the middle of an install?12:35
gnarfacedarwin: does the daedalus live iso have the same issue?12:36
darwinlive ISOs don't have the issue but don't let me choose package sets nor install as much as when you use those, so I'll end up lost... I recall someone saying some of the package sets remain unlabelled when you use another method to try to find them, you won't12:36
gnarfacei'd try the regular installer in ncurses/text expert mode, and not select any desktops during the tasksel phase. that should leave you a bootable system with a text console that functions well enough to install the latest kernel and amdgpu drivers.12:37
darwindoesn't desktop firstly mean terminal (tty) / shell desktop, not X/etc.?12:39
gnarfacenot sure what you mean12:39
gnarfacejust keep the live iso handy because you may still need it to repair the install12:39
gnarfacei'm assuming you're having the problem because of a graphical mode setting, but if you're having the problem due to a text mode setting, you may need to edit the grub config manually to add "nomodeset" to the kernel command-line12:40
gnarface(i've only seen that issue with old nvidia cards but your device is very new)12:40
darwini see12:41
gnarface(so it's an unknown - but if the live iso works then this should work somehow)12:41
darwini wrote all this down but might try it tomorrow... getting kind of late at night here12:41
gnarfacei can only assume the issue with the desktop installer is that the kernel is slightly older than the one in the live iso12:41
gnarfaceyou're not the first person to run into it12:42
gnarfaceother user also had a rx 6XXX something12:42
darwini was here talking about it before12:42
darwinfor the Devuan 4 installer12:42
gnarfaceunless that was you too? i was pretty sure that person got it working though...12:42
darwini only got it working with the live ISO then ended up not being able to install some stuff that would normally have been installed12:43
gnarfacewell, first thing's first. do a regular install and don't select any desktops12:43
darwini'll try it; thanks12:43
gnarfacegood luck, i'll be back later12:44
gnarfaceif it boots and your text console works, then all you should have to do is install the latest firmware-amd-graphics and linux-image-amd64 from the repo12:44
gnarface(then of course reboot, and whatever other graphical programs you install should work fine after that)12:45
grayrocki had the exact same problem with devuan 4 after i installed my new rx 6650 xt. afaict, it was the newer kernel in devuan 5 that solved the issue for me. it also happened with debian installer, so it's inherited.12:46
grayrocki didn't try text mode installer as per gnarface, but i think that likely would work, as well as all his other advice.12:49
darwinis there a Devuan forum or listserv/newsgroup or do people just use Debian forums?12:51
fsmithredif text console is scrambled when you boot installer iso, you might need to set screen resolution in the boot menu12:54
fsmithredset gfxpayload=something12:54
fsmithredscrambled when you run the installer, I mean. I get that with one of my laptops.12:55
fsmithredI think I have to use 640x480 on that one.12:55
grayrockthis is just a wild guess, but thinking back on the nature of the scrambled display, it was sort of a very extreme zig-zag pattern, so maybe it has something to do with refresh rate.12:57
darwinwell, I tried one more time.  Devuan 4 & 5rc4 full desktop installer expert mode just shuts off my screen and beeps (not sure if it reboots)... the grub configuration already says nomodeset but also sets graphics mode 788 which I know is very high, even though it's a 4K card & screen, that old kernel may not do well with these modes and it may need to set something more like '1080p'13:08
darwini don't know which mode I should change that to if any13:08
gnarfacethere's a chart somewhere, i forget the actual numbers13:09
darwinit's not scrambled when I boot.  It's boots to the menu fine, but then only after I select 'INSTALL' it scrambles13:09
gnarfacemaybe try removing the "nomodeset" and instead use gfxpayload=keep13:09
gnarfacethere's syntax to force a specific resolution too13:10
gnarfacecheck the comments in the /etc/default/grub file13:11
gnarfacenot sure if just passing "vga=ask" will work anymore13:11
gnarface(afk again)13:14
fsmithredthe gfxpayload option is for grub boot menu (uefi or installed system), vga=  is for isolinux boot menu (bios boot)13:29
fsmithredhere's a chart of vga modes:
darwini got some kind of installer by doing vga=ask but unclear it was basic or advanced (this needs to be improved to give a choice even if you edit that).  Iselected 'go back' because I already have my grub.cfg in Slackware, then installer seemed to halt at installing something about grub branding... was anything supposed to happen after that?13:45
darwin'I selected'13:45
darwinand how do I change the runlevel back to terminal (tty) and no X?13:47
rrqif you have installed then you should reboot into that, if you havenät you need to rebbot into a new installer13:50
rrqat the boot menu, use TAB for editing the installers boot command line and select your workign vga mode13:51
darwini rebooted into it but it's unclear if the install finished13:54
darwinbecause the logic for 'go back' wasn't completed and it got stuck at 79% doing something with 'grub branding'13:54
rrqif you aborted intead of installing grub to the MBR then it's not bootable13:54
darwini just told you I booted into it because I have grub in Slakcware13:55
darwinthat's why I selected 'go back'13:55
rrqyou mean your installed system ins now running?13:56
darwinyes, but it's not clear the installation was completed13:56
darwinthere were several steps after installing boot loader and I don't know if it got to any of those13:57
darwin'go back' should've gone to the next step, not just halted at 79%13:57
rrqwhich dialog did you select "go back" at?13:58
grayrockthe grub install is the last part of the installation, so if you got that far, the system should be (otherwise) fully installed.13:58
darwinexcellent! :)13:58
darwini selected 'go back' instead of installing grub13:59
grayrockand if your slackware grub installation is working, it wasn't damaged by the devuan grub install attempt/abort.13:59
grayrockthe only other thing it does before rebooting is clean up some files that were only needed during the installation, so those may still by there.14:01
darwingood.  Some like newer Debian-/Ubuntu-based (and even FreeBSD) do replace it14:03
darwinoh, I see.  Well I can deal with those later.  First I need to download something from the contrib repository14:03
grayrocksounds like you made it. congratulations. :)14:04
darwinthanks!  I enabled contrib and have to install openzfs/zfsonlinux but the package names are different.  I use this for my /home between any GNU/Linux and FreeBSD/etc.14:06
darwinthen I have to install amdgpu and a lot of other stuff I'm mostly used to already being installed14:07
darwinnot that amdgpu is14:07
grayrockyou can run tasksel again from the command line if you want to install a desktop or something.14:07
fsmithredapt-cache search zfs14:08
darwini installed XFCE but for now I just want to disable that and boot only to command-line14:08
fsmithreddisble the display manager14:09
fsmithredis it slim or lightdm?14:09
darwini have no idea.  It's Devuan 5rc414:10
grayrocki think daedalus switched to slim.14:10
fsmithredyou can install sysv-rc-conf and use that to turn it off in whatever runlevels you choose14:10
fsmithredor you could use update-rc.d14:10
darwinit had errors building zfs.  It said it was going to install it 'monolithic' but then that instead it had a problem installing it as a module14:11
fsmithredoh, did you use startx to start xfce, or did you have a graphical login screen?14:12
darwinnow later I think it's fixed and that I maybe found the right runlevel14:12
darwinit was graphical right when I logged-in14:13
fsmithredyou installed task-xfce-desktop or just xfce4?14:13
grayrockif you're trying to build something, you might want to install build-essential first.14:13
darwini found a Deian wiki page that said I install zfs but it included some dkms thing it was building... it didn't say I need that but I recall I need it for other stuff14:14
darwinnow I booted to command-line14:15
fsmithreddefault runlevel in debian/devuan is 2, and 2-5 are all the same.14:16
darwinwell in that SysVInit configuration runlevel 3 looked more like a normal command-line14:16
darwinit didn't have slim selected14:16
darwini got ZFS now, so next amdgpu14:17
darwinare the .bash* and .profile files in user directories/folders same as in Debian?14:20
grayrockthe ones for the user are, like debian.14:21
darwinwhat about root?14:21
grayrockroot has its own14:22
darwinso root's were changed from Debian?14:22
grayrockthe system-wide default ones are in /etc. root's is in /root.14:22
darwini know where they are, just wondering if they forked14:24
darwinbecause I'll be copying them over to my preexistent /home and merging some stuff14:24
darwinand backing up the root stuff and maybe merging those also14:24
rrqall forked packages have "devuan" in their version codes; all else is directly from debian14:25
grayrockprobably hasn't changed much from devian 11 / devuan 4, but i'd back up the existing ones first anyway.14:26
grayrockdebian 11*14:26
darwinwould there be anything wrong with making it up to 12 pure terminals (ttys) including tty7 then running startx if I want that?14:28
darwinit's what I do on *BSD & Slackware...14:28
rrqadding more getty lines in inittab, you mean; that's fine. the kernel has 64 vitual terminals that you may use14:30
darwingreat! :)14:30
darwinis there a file moved somewhere that used to be /etc/securetty I also have to add them in?14:31
darwinsomeone told me the amdgpu drivers (for OpenCL) that are on are already in a Devuan repository... but which repository is that--non-free?14:32
rrqyou may use to find packages14:32
darwinthough there's now also the free ROCm that replaces and those are based on, but I read it doesn't always work as well14:33
darwin(Radeon Open Compute)14:33
grayrockisn't there a new something-something-firmware repo now?14:34
darwini didn't find any amdgpu packages in , but I was just using the Lynx web browser...14:35
rrqis that a package or a file in a package?14:36
darwinit's part of a package name14:36
rrqso you searched *amdgpu* then ?14:37
darwinthe longer name was amdgpu-install14:37
darwini didn't use asterisks14:37
rrqguess you did'nt glance at the sintruction on the page14:37
darwini put one at the end now but it didn't show up14:38
darwinsomeone told me don't try to get it from AMD and alter it to allow installing on Devuan instead of getting it from Devuan14:38
rrqnot happy with any of the results when you use a * first as well?14:39
grayrockoh, i remember... each sources list line ends with "main contrib non-free-firmware" now instead of "main contrib non-free"14:40
darwinthe name starts with amdgpu so shouldn't need one14:40
darwini guess I'll do it tomorrow.  I should sleep14:42
darwinthe whole main part of the package name is just amdgpu-install and after that are version numbers and .deb14:43
grayrockthere are four files in the devuan repos with "amdgpu" in the name: libdrm-amdgpu1 libdrm-amdgpu1:i386 ricks-amdgpu-utils xserver-xorg-video-amdgpu14:46
darwinthe installer I'm talking about installs a large number of packages (dozens or 100+)... it's a mess14:47
darwinit can install OpenCL (and some other stuff) which is what I use it for14:47
darwinit's on but someone said I don't need to, or shouldn't install it from there rather from another source.  I don't know that's actually true...14:48
darwinit's not any of the four packages you mentiond but does a lot more than that.  OpenCL is for number-crunching14:49
grayrockcan you build it from source?14:49
darwinthat is very complicated and I wouldn't attempt it14:49
darwinif the Debian packages work I should just use those14:50
darwini hope they haven't done something with it that uses systemd, but an advanced programmer modified the Debian/Ubuntu packages to make Slackware packages, which of course don't use systemd14:51
grayrockhopefully they don't pull in anything with systemd dependencies that devuan can't handle.14:51
grayrockgood old volkerding :D14:52
darwini'm skeptical whether the person who told me knew what they're talking about because I just ran the installer with '--help' and it said 'unsupported OS: /etc/os-release ID "devuan"' but there is a way around this14:54
darwinif it had existed for Devuan that would've probably meant it had to keep the name Debian wherever it got that information from14:56
darwini'm still willing to try if an altered package exists but I think they thought I meant something else like the four amdgpu packages other than the installer for extra stuff14:57
gnarfacedarwin: amdgpu is in the package firmware-amd-graphics in non-free-firmware14:57
grayrockeven if you circumvented that, you'd wind up with a "frankendevuan"14:57
darwinnot all of it--not the OpenCL14:57
gnarfacedarwin: (all the driver packages from earlier releases that were in non-free got moved to non-free-firmware as of daedalus)14:57
rrqdarwin: if you want OpenCL, try "apt-cache search OpenCL" and pick some of those14:58
darwini had that repository enabled and amdgpu-install like on isn't in there... it isn't just firmware.  OpenCL is a programming language or something such as that for number-crunching and has dozens or 100+ packages to setup14:58
darwini can't pick some of those because for newer radeons you have to use packages that were compiled for them14:59
darwinor you don't get all the features14:59
gnarfacedarwin: please don't get hung up on their poor grasp of vocabulary, you need "firmware-amd-graphics" from non-free-firmware14:59
darwini see15:00
gnarfacedarwin: i'm well aware it's not actually firmware15:00
* gnarface didn't do it15:00
gnarfaceyes you do probably also need more stuff, but the rest should be in main15:00
gnarface(a bunch of mesa packages)15:00
darwini'm installing firmware-amd-graphics but it sounds much too small for what I normally installed of this15:02
gnarfacelike i said, you also need a bunch of mesa packages, but they're all in main15:02
gnarfaceas in free15:03
darwinis there a list somewhere of what is equivalent of the dozens or 100+ packages?15:03
gnarfacethe equivalent to what?15:03
gnarfacethere's like 22 of them15:04
grayrockyou'd have to look in the debian package for that.15:04
gnarface"apt-cache search mesa'15:04
gnarfacei mean "apt-cache search mesa"15:04
gnarfaceyou don't necessarily need all of them, it just depends on what you're doing15:04
darwinamdgpu install --usecase=opencl --opencl=rocr --no-dkms --no-3215:04
darwin'amdgpu-install'... all I know is that's what installs everything15:05
gnarfacenot familiar with that, i doubt there's a debian equivalent. that looks like something that downloads unofficial software from a 3rd party repo15:05
darwinit works for Debian15:05
darwinDebian is in the list of GNU/Linux distributions it accepts to run that15:06
gnarfacewe have the same distribution as debian, and debian would tell you not to use that 3rd party stuff either15:06
gnarfacei guarantee you don't need it15:06
gnarfacei suspect it also makes a mess15:06
darwinit can but it also has an uninstaller15:06
gnarfacehere's what i can give you:
gnarfacea list of the mesa packges i'm using15:07
darwini use it for BOINC ( science/research) and cryptocurrency mining15:07
gnarfacedon't sweat it if you can't find one or two of those, i think i have some vestiges of earlier installs still present15:07
onefangboinc is in the Devuan repos already.15:08
onefangMight save some time if you start with "this is what I need" rather than "this is how I'm trying to do that thing I need, but haven't said what that thing is".  B-)15:09
darwini know BOINC is there, but this is dozens or 100+ other packages used to enable graphics card number crunching on BOINC.  I don't know what the packages are.  I just know they work on Debian15:10
rustyaxecryo mining.. what a waste of electricity. *smh*15:11
gnarfacedarwin: well i don't know what they are either, and if they're coming from a 3rd-party repo there's no guarantee they even have debian equivalents, or if they do there's no guarantee they are named 1:1 the same15:12
darwincrypto means cryptography15:13
gnarfacedarwin: maybe you could start with a "dpkg --get-selections" on one of those debian installs and search devuan for them, but note that these are the only ones debian doesn't also have:
gnarfaceer, i mean those are the only ones debian has that devuan doesn't also have ^15:13
gnarfacehow sure are you that the existing boinc package isn't smart enough to get what it needs?15:14
gnarfacedid you at least get the graphical desktop working?15:15
darwinit booted into that on the first boot and I disabled it15:15
gnarfaceok, so you know it's working at least15:16
gnarfacemaybe it's just missing dependencies on a couple opencl packages that are already in the repos?15:18
gnarfacemaybe not, but worth checking15:19
gnarfacewith a card that new i wouldn't be surprised if the only thing you were missing was some patches that haven't been added to debian yet on packages that are already there15:19
gnarfacethe idea that there might be a whole other structure of unrelated packages and dependencies not even present in debian is possible but statistically unlikely15:20
gnarfacestill, with this use case, i don't know15:21
gnarfacethe tip to run "apt-cache search opencl" seems like a good one15:21
darwinit would've been the case until they were released as Radeon Open Compute unless Debian was distributing proprietary software15:21
darwinand that was just in recent years15:22
grayrockcouldn't you just run debian in a vm on your devuan box and let it mine away? or maybe you don't want to dedicate the gpu to the vm.15:22
gnarfaceno reason it needs the gpu for that i don't think15:23
gnarfaceyou could do it in a chroot15:23
gnarfacestill, the package list is the primary question currently15:23
gnarfacegotta know what "amdgpu-install" actually installs, can't guess15:23
darwinchroot is easier.  I dislike virtual machines (VMs) except like Xen like on older Qubes in which every VM could run programs in the host's X session as if part of that15:24
darwinbut you don't even need X for BOINC or most miners15:24
gnarfaceno way to just tell "amdgpu-install" to treat a chroot install as debian? that could be very informative even if it breaks the install15:24
darwinyes, you can do that but that's what someone here told me don't do15:25
gnarfaceit would probably work if they didn't do any systemd integrations15:25
darwinyou just edit it (it's a script) and make sure it has the OS in the list of names it accepts15:26
gnarfacewell, don't do it on your main install, but if you're comfortable doing a chroot install it should be safe in there i would think15:26
gnarfacedevuan has debootstrap15:26
darwini'm pretty sure they don't because someone did something like this to convert them to Slackware packages which of course only uses SysVInit unless someone modifies it15:26
gnarfaceso you think it'll fail before even showing you what it installs?15:28
gnarfaceit supports slackware? slackware should work fine in a chroot too...15:29
darwini'm just not sure how to figure that out, but I doubt it'll fail if I do that right.  I guess I'd have to somehow redirect stdout15:29
gnarface[command] > log_file.log 2>&1 &15:30
darwinnot officially; some Slackware users/programmers just rebuilt the packages.  I think I heard Gentoo people may have also done so15:30
gnarfacei think systemd has some problem with chroots but any distro without systemd should work15:31
darwini initially even updated Devuan from a Slackware chroot15:32
darwinsome that have systemd worked also but I don't know if they'd work to run X/etc. because they started running that as a systemd 'service'15:33
darwini saved a list of the packages when I ran the installer in another OS15:42
scorpion2185[m]have you ever thought about dinit for user services? (also as a init but i said that alredy once)15:46
ecxodis pulseaudio compatible with devuan ? it does not work any more since I switched18:00
masonecxod: Edit /etc/pulse/client.conf.d/00-disable-autospawn.conf and change the autospawn setting18:03
masonThat said, I don't use PulseAudio so I'm just assuming that's still the advice.18:03
ecxodI have only /etc/pulse/client.conf.d/01-enable-autospawn.conf and there is only autospawn=yes in line 118:06
ecxodbut btw what do you use ?18:06
masonWorks with Firefox, Chrome, Chromium, Steam, VLC, Wine, and I'm not sure anything else I use makes noises.18:07
masonRemember that PulseAudio doesn't actually do much. It mostly just feeds audio to ALSA.18:07
buZzpulse can work, sure18:09
buZzpipewire is so amazing to me :) vs pulse18:10
buZzbut i use a lot of weird audio software that normally requires jack etc18:10
ecxodpipewire was for me similar to video18:11
masonPipewire was originally called PulseVideo.18:12
buZzpipewire does alsa+jack+pulse emulation on top of alsa18:13
buZzand it can also route video yeah18:13
buZzit does all that emulation at lower cpu than jack/pulse used18:13
buZzpretty amazing stuff to me :)18:13
masonI'm tempted to try pipewire sometime actually.18:13
buZzits almost 100% proper in devuan, but lacks a manager to start/stop it18:14
buZzcurrently i just start it when i log in on X, as my user18:14
buZzsimilar to how suggests using it18:14
buZzbut they have some shellscript to do it for them18:15
nemoecxod: no issues over here with pulseaudio19:26
nemoecxod: I would guess the only problems would be with multiple simultaneous X sessions19:26
gnarfacelast i tested it was beowulf19:28
gnarfacei wouldn't know if upgrading from bookworm to daedalus left behind broken configs19:29
nemo gnarface: I've upgraded beowulf, chimæra, dædalus, no issues.19:32
nemoecxod: are you using pavucontrol ? it might clear things up19:33
nemoonly irritating issue I have is every time I turn on the TV the living room machine is plugged into, it tries to use the HDMI over the sucky TV builtin speakers. probably 'cause it was last source "plugged in"19:34
nemolast time I tried to mess around in the config to say "always use the analog 2.1 no matter what" I screwed it up, so I just fix it every time. annoying though.19:34
nemobuZz: my experience with pipewire on the steamdeck is it is more finicky than pulseaudio.19:35
nemosome older games have sucky audio inputs they dump in, and pulseaudio quietly detects and corrects which is nice19:35
nemoafter an hour or two of playing around in pipewire I was unable to get the same behaviour from it19:36
nemoeven w/ some help from their IRC channel and a lot of reading of docs19:36
* golinux has never used pulseaudio19:38
gnarfaceecxod: on beowulf at least, it worked with default configs as long as the desktop environment was launching it as the user rather than the init system launching it as root19:38
gnarface(in stereo anyway - surround sound was a struggle)19:39
ecxodgnarface, thanks, I have noticed I do not need it. Sound works perfect only with alsa19:40
gnarfaceecxod: yea very few things actually need it. Steam is one of them, but even then you can usually hack around it.19:41
masongnarface: I use Steam without PulseAudio.19:42
gnarfacemason: you obviously don't use remote play19:42
masonI don't do anything special to make it work.19:42
masongnarface: That's correct.19:42
gnarfaceit needs it for remote play unless you do "something special" and there's a bunch of games that won't run without it unless you do something else special19:43
gnarface(remote play will work without it, you just won't hear audio at the remote end)19:43
gnarfacefor the games that won't launch without it, you can just symlink -> /dev/null in their top-level install directories, and set LD_LIBRARY_PATH=".:$LD_LIBRARY_PATH" %command% in the launch options19:44
masonI don't think I've encountered such a game, luckily.19:45
gnarfaceeven having to take such steps is probably evidence of schadenfreude but some popular ones have that problem19:46
gnarfacebut yes, it would be fair to say it barely needs it and you usually won't miss it19:48
gnarfaceit's also fair to say that just because you have it doesn't guarantee it'll work right19:49
gnarface(especially in beowulf currently)19:49
buZzi use steam with pipewire19:54
buZzeven steamlink to a android has sound, so i guess its fine19:55

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