libera/#devuan/ Friday, 2023-07-21

dgriffiif the deb file has nothing to do with systemd, can I just drop in a regular Debian deb into a devuan system and expect things to work ok?01:51
masondgriffi: You'll get regular .deb files through the Devuan mirrors as it is.01:51
masonUnless you're talking about something third-party, in which case it's really anyone's guess what they did.01:51
dgriffithere's an ongoing problem in MATE that makes the aspect ratio of the pager too narrow no matter what you do.  the solution, so far, is to downgrade three libraries and peg them to not be upgraded01:52
dgriffiI installed debuan just now and am facing applying that fix.  I looked for the downgraded libs in's pool directories and didn't find them.01:53
fsmithredthat's because most of "our" packages are in the debian repos.01:54
fsmithredand we pull from there.01:55
dgriffino repackaging or rebuilding?01:55
fsmithredOnly a couple hundred packages are forked - those are the ones in our repos.01:55
dgriffiI see.01:55
fsmithredand the server merge them so it appears to be one repo01:55
fsmithredso in your case, pulling the debs from is the correct thing to do (unless you can get apt to do it for you)01:56
dgriffiI manually pulled the debs to apply the fix in the first place.01:58
dgriffisee for what I'm up to.01:58
dgriffiNow I'm having a weird problem with the SSD in my laptop.  it's stuck in some sort of sleep-yet-not-sleep such that I have to set SATA mode to "compatible" rather than "AHCI".01:59
dgriffinot really relevant here, but it did give me a nasty time of trying to figure out wtf was going on.02:00
* dgriffi is pleased with how peppier this devuan install feels than does debian.02:00
dgriffinow.. for shits and giggles... what would it take to add to devuan the option to use systemd?02:01
fsmithredcan't be done02:02
fsmithreddevuan with systemd has a special name02:02
fsmithredpackages that require systemd are necessarily banned from the repo02:03
dgriffifsmithred: my point is to work at the problem of offering choice in the reverse direction02:03
fsmithredright now the installer includes the choices of sysvinit, openrc or runit02:04
dgriffiand wasn't there some back and forth about getting debian to support choices like that?02:05
golinuxdgriffi: If Debian had supported and offered choice, there would have been no need for Devuan to fork.02:05
golinuxYeah back in 201402:05
dgriffigolinux: I know.02:05
fsmithredI don't think their installer offers a choice of init system, but they do have the same ones we have.02:06
golinuxHold on a sec I have the canonical link explaining that . . .02:06
dgriffigolinux: my point is that if somehow systemd could be made an option in devuan, then we could say "hey, debian!  you said this couldn't be done!  lookie here!"02:06
golinuxDoesn't MX Linux already do that?02:07
fsmithredWe're going off-topic here. They already know what can and can't be done.02:08
golinuxBut we are now off topic02:08
fsmithredwill or won't is more the problem02:08
golinuxWhy would we want to offer an inferior init option?02:10
dgriffigolinux: to stick it to the systemd true-believers02:11
dgriffigolinux: to show them that it doesn't have to be systemd today tomorrow and forever.02:12
rustyaxeNo thanks.02:12
rustyaxeWe dont need no stinkin systemdos02:12
gnarfacethey literally designed it to make that impossible on purpose02:12
dgriffignarface: I can understand and appreciate a system that once it's systemd, it cannot be switched to sysvinit or whatever.02:13
fsmithredwe have directions for migration from debian to devuan for every release02:14
dgriffignarface: what I'm specualating is that you could possibly have the choice of many inits on install, one of them is systemd and the whole shebang works02:15
golinuxWe have no interest in systemd02:15
dgriffifsmithred: I guess I misinterpreted the "designed it to make that impossible on purpose"02:15
fsmithredwe have to fork some packages to remove their dependence on systemd02:16
fsmithredand we have to supply init scripts that disappear02:16
dgriffigolinux: I have no interest in it either... for doing actual work.  My interest in very narrowly-defined with the intent of pissing in poeterring's cheerios02:16
fsmithredalthough there is now a package called orphan-sysvinit-scripts that has a lot of them.02:16
golinuxThat us extremely childish and not productive.02:16
dgriffifsmithred: I found that one and asked why it's not a prereq for de-systemd'ed debian machines.  I got a lot of "but it's not" nonanswers.02:18
golinuxus > is02:18
dgriffigolinux: why not?02:18
fsmithredI think our continued existence does that.02:18
golinuxBecause it is a waste of time02:19
fsmithredput energy into continuing our existence02:19
dgriffigolinux: how much effort do you suppose would be required to do this?02:19
golinuxAnd this discussion belongs in #devuan-offtopic02:19
golinuxFeel free to make that your pet project.02:20
* golinux needs a bath . . . later . . .02:20
fsmithredI'm going outside for a bit.02:21
markizanoomg, I been searching at this for a few hours and am baffled by this ....05:34
markizanocasper is an ubuntu app, not an Debian app ??05:34
markizanotrying to build a live-iso and seems casper is the one thing I am missing for this ....05:35
markizanotarget OS in live-iso is a custom debootstrap'd devuan I've compacted into a squashfs05:35
gnarfaceseems that way05:39
gnarfaceit's not on the banned packages list so you can probably make it work05:40
gnarfaceno idea why it's not in debian05:40
al1r4dWhat is casper? markizano06:01
markizano al1r4d re:
markizano"Run a "live" preinstalled system from read-only media"06:04
Unit193Ubuntu's version of live-config, or a ghost.06:04
markizanoyou install it in the target system and the kernel is able to boot into a special mode that runs from ISO images rather than connecting to hardware directly.06:04
markizanoI pondered if it might be a fork of live-usb or some package similar. Was going to peek into the source and author06:05
brocashelmdgriffi: unfortunately, as systemd continues to encroach much of the gnu/linux ecosystem, there have to be boundaries to ensure no traces of it are present on a distro that uses it by default (e.g. debian, arch, fedora)06:22
brocashelmdebian 13 trixie will be even more systemd-rotted, so devuan, antix, mx, exist to allow for full functionality of other init systems06:22
brocashelmand also, if sysvinit is too old/slow, one could ideally install runit and runit-services, and see how the individual likes it (i run it on all my devuan systems and it's getting a lot better support as of daedalus)06:23
masonbrocashelm: sysvinit is pretty snappy06:31
markizanojust made some videos about why I use Devuan. Need to edit and post. Will probably end up doing tomorrow since it's ~23:40 here, LoL06:42
dgriffifor a stock install of Devuan using MATE, why would the terminal bell for xterm and MATE terminal not sound?21:27
djphdgriffi: pcspkr turned off?21:56
masondgriffi: Given that it's been years since xset b parameters actually functioned, that might be a blessing in disguise.22:00
golinux xset b off still works for me. I have it in session and startup22:17
masonYeah, but the tone, duration, and volume haven't worked for a dog's age.22:22
masonIt'd be neat if they did. My one dive into the code was frightening.22:23
gnarfacedgriffi: the window manager, the user's shell, or the terminal's own default command-line parameters may suppress it22:39
gnarface(may suppress or actually replace with "visual" bell)22:40
gnarfaceas for getting the old-school pc speaker functionality, it still can work if you have the right type of hardware, but there's two implementations in the kernel and you may have to force it to use the right one22:40
gnarfacethe primary distinction is whether the internal speaker control is piggy-backing off the main soundcard or not, but there's some other hardware variations between those major two camps that i've seen22:41
gnarfacedespite that, afaik several years ago the kernel developers just picked the "new" one and forced it on everyone by default even if it's not the best one22:42
gnarfacei used to be able to recall more configuration details about this, but they've faded as most of my use cases were just based on figuring out how to disable both in every case22:43
gnarfacefirst step to restoring legacy behavior i believe is blacklisting one kernel module so it can load the other22:45
gnarfacebut i think there may be certain hardware where you have to pick one or the other22:46
gnarfaceas in, you may have to disable the onboard soundcard to get linux to let you load the old pc speaker22:46
gnarfacenot sure about that though, been a while like i said22:47

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