libera/#devuan/ Monday, 2023-08-07

systemdlete2Ok, once again, I have forgotten how to install devuan to a raid drive.  I have the raid set up already, and I have even created a partition on it.   How do I get that added to the selection of install targets (that comes in the next window during installation)?00:32
systemdlete2devuan chimaera00:32
systemdlete2I've tried several times but no luck.00:32
systemdlete2(Istr this is a simple thing, but it is just not clicking, sorry)00:34
systemdlete2(I promise to write it down in my elog notebook this time)00:34
systemdlete2oh, I am running the installer by clicking the desktop icon, not from cmd line00:36
rrqfrom memory: you start by marking the partitions to be in the raid, and then you create the raid device and selects the partitions to be in it. pointy-clicky00:39
systemdlete2as I mentioned, I have already created the raid and formatted it.00:39
rrqgreat. I've just crawled out of bed myself :)00:40
systemdlete2gm, rrq!00:41
rrqso the raid device should be in the partitioner's list.. and it need a partition table first00:42
systemdlete2got that, check00:42
systemdlete2but it does not appear in the installer's list of targets00:42
rrqah... this is live installer.. hmm there isn't a manual input option?00:44
systemdlete2I hate that script.00:44
systemdlete2It's buggy.00:44
systemdlete2If you don't type just the right thing at the right time, it does "funny" things.00:44
rrqhmm I may need to read scrollback... not sure what you mean with "list of targets"00:46
rrqafter partitioning the raid drive, you'd have a selected partition for "/"00:47
rrqand that would be the install target00:47
systemdlete2I'm not sure what you are looking at.  I launch the installer from the live desktop and follow the prompts.00:47
systemdlete2At one point, there is the partioning step.  You can pick gdisk or gparted or skip it.00:47
systemdlete2Since I've got my partition already set up on my raid, I skip it.00:48
rrqah; ok, it is the live installer, (not installer-iso)00:48
systemdlete2a list of paritions appears00:48
systemdlete2ok, so I need the installer-iso.00:48
systemdlete2THAT was the simple sauce, I think.00:48
rrqpossibly; it does partitioning pointy-clicky in a different way00:50
rrqI'm sure you'll enjoy it though :)00:50
fsmithredsystemdlete2, if you want to install to raid from live-iso you have to do some things manually and then use the cli installer. Look for my howto on the forum.01:13
fsmithredThis one:
systemdlete2thanks fsmithred01:16
spine-o-saurusanyone else getting this error during git clone
spine-o-saurusi think it is going to sleep mode or something and times out07:07
DelTomix Hey all - Wondering if I messed up something - or if the servers are updating? I just debootstraped a daedalus installation, and after booting, apt update says "xxxRelease is not valid yet (invalid for another 49min 9s). Updates for this repository will not be applied"  - don't think I've ever seen that before08:39
brocashelmdeltomix: what does the output for date say?08:42
DelTomixbrocashelm: same thing once for each repository (inrelease, security, updates, backports, proposed-updates) theres the usual series of "GET:" lines and then "E: Release file for is not valid yet (invalid for another 49min 9s). Updates for this repository will not be applied."   - for each of the sources.  - just realised - I wonder if it could08:48
DelTomixbe the timestamp, going from the debootstrap system to the booted system (its sysclock is GMT so its reading 4 hours behind)08:48
DelTomixah yes - thats definitely it.. grr..  it works when I do "apt -o Acquire::Max-FutureTime=21600 update"08:56
brocashelmdeltomix: you need to manually set the date to the correct UTC timezone08:58
DelTomixright yeah08:58
DelTomixhave to figure out how I can do that in the generator script - where I don't know the time-zone of the target in advance - I guess in my initial boot scripts09:04
ted-iousCan the new installer install onto existing partitions so I can make smarter choices about options?10:30
ted-iousOr do I still have to do the install and tar up the system and reformat?10:31
fsmithredted-ious, what do you want to tar?10:34
ted-iousThe system I just installed so I can reformat the root partition.10:36
ted-iousSince I don't see a way to specify options for when it gets formatted.10:36
fsmithredAre you using one of the installer isos or a live iso?10:38
fsmithredchoose Manual paritioning in the installer iso. The live isos don't partition for you but it will format the partitions unless you tell it not to format.10:39
fsmithredand if you're using a live iso, it's probably faster to reinstall because it just copies the live system to the hard drive. No network is needed.10:41
ted-iousI was using the live image.11:10
fsmithredyou have to do all the partioning manually - installer will offer you a couple of choices (gparted and either gdisk or cfdisk)11:11
fsmithredor you can partition before running the installer and then choose those partitions in the installer.11:12
ted-iousOk I'm trying again with the installer dvd in expert ode.11:12
fsmithredOK, choose manual partiioning and you can set it up how you want.11:13
fsmithredbtw you don't need expert install to do manual partitioning.11:13
fsmithredexpert gives you a few more questions.11:14
fsmithredabout other things11:14
fsmithredwill you be choosing a mirror?11:14
fsmithredor installing all from the dvd?11:14
ted-iousI'm going to do a minimal install and setup the mirror later.11:17
fsmithredok, that'll work.11:17
ted-iousHow do I tell it to use the partition but not format it?11:18
fsmithredif you do a full desktop install from the dvd without a mirror, you don't get some packages that you might expect - like firefox.11:18
ted-iousIf I tell it what filesystem type it is it insists on formatting it.11:18
ted-iousOh no problem this is a server.11:18
fsmithreddon't tell it a file system for the partition.11:18
ted-iousIt won't let me continue without a root filesystem defined.11:19
fsmithredMake sure there's not "F" (or "f"?) next to it on the list.11:19
fsmithredI don't recall the exact order of screens in the partitioning, but there's a place to choose format/no format for the parittions.11:20
fsmithreduh, I'm not fully awake yet. Why don't you want the installer to format the partiions?11:21
ted-iousBecause it will put a journal on it and that's horrible for a vm on a ssd.11:21
fsmithredso you want to use ext2? Won't the installer let you do that?11:22
ted-iousNo the ext2 format doesn't have the btree optimizations of ext4.11:22
fsmithredSounds like you're trying to do something that I know nothing about.11:24
ted-iousIt's a shame that you can't just type in the mkfs commands in the installer.11:24
ted-iousIt would make customizations so much simpler.11:24
fsmithredyou can tell it not to format the partitions.11:25
fsmithredIf needed, find a youtube video of manual partitioning with debian-installer.11:25
ted-iousI've checked every possible option in this menu and there's no way to get past this point without letting it format.11:26
ted-iousDo I have to back up and use guided partitioning?11:26
gnarfaceno, it's definitely manual partitioning11:26
fsmithredso on the summary screen does every partition have F next to it?11:26
gnarfacecheck the partition options, there's two flags you can set in there11:27
ted-iousI can only get rid of the f by telling it to not use the partition.11:27
ted-iousI can't set that flag manually.11:27
gnarfaceyou sure it's don't use and not just don't format?11:28
ted-ious100% sure.11:28
gnarfacewhat filesystem is it?11:28
ted-iousIt says do not use.11:28
ted-iousext4 with no journal.11:29
gnarfacei wonder if it's because it's an older ext4 version11:29
ted-iousNo I just formatted it 2 minutes ago using the install dvd.11:29
gnarfaceoh, odd11:30
gnarfacethis is the daedalus one?11:30
fsmithredI know you can do this with the live installer. Pre-format and tell installer not to format.11:30
ted-iousI had to do it again because telling it to erase the data on the partition looks like it did a dd /dev/zero onto it.11:30
ted-iousfsmithred: That didn't work for me either.11:30
ted-iousBefore I started talking here.11:30
fsmithredwhy not?11:30
gnarfacei haven't seen the new installers but there at least definitely used to be a way to set it to use a partition but not pre-format it11:31
fsmithredit's designed to allow you to do that11:31
ted-iousThere was no option for that.11:31
fsmithredgnarface, I thought so, too11:31
fsmithredted-ious, yes there are two ways to do it11:31
fsmithredeither in the config file or in the options menu of the graphical installer11:31
djphthere is (was) when you used the "I know what I'm doing" option ...11:31
fsmithredDo not format (check the box)11:31
djphbut I think the "guided" options didn't have that11:31
ted-iousThe last time I did this with chimaera I had to let the installer go ahead and then tar up the system and mkfs it myself using a live cd.11:32
ted-iousdjph: I don't remember ever seeing an option like that or I'd have chosen it.11:32
djphlike what?  It's usually the last one (albeit nicer -> "Manual" or some such)11:33
rrqthere is the format/fon't format option for every partition in the installer-iso partitioner11:35
rrqyou can use guided or manual, and you can then review and change settings for the partitions11:36
rrqbefore committing it11:36
rrqthe hands-on is to select te partition, then fidle it settings and the chose "done with this partition"11:38
rrqh d s11:38
rrqbut the base system debootstrap may get uppity trying to install over an existing installation11:41
ted-iousI'll try the live gui again but I'm pretty sure these options everybod is talking about don't exist in the installer without some hidden trick.11:42
fsmithredI'm in the rc5 netinstall now and I can't figure out how to do it.11:42
rrqselect a partition11:42
fsmithredUse as: only sane choice is ext4 journaling file system11:42
fsmithredand then I'm allowed to tell it to use it for /11:43
fsmithredbut I don't see a way not to format it11:43
rrqsletc that format line11:43
rrqselect (bloody fingers)11:43
fsmithredinstead of ext4, I could choose 'do not use'11:43
rrqselect the lane saying "format"11:43
fsmithredI'll try that again11:44
rrq(I need coffee)11:44
ted-iousfsmithred: It's actually a very not sane choice for a vm that's already running on a journaling filesystem on an ssd.11:44
ted-iousThat causes major write amplification.11:44
ted-iousHonestly you don't even really need a journal for a reasonable sized ssd.11:45
fsmithredwell then the only sane choice in that list is ext211:45
ted-iousAnd it's probably not even worth it on an nvme at all.11:45
ted-iousNo as I said the ext2 format is primative and has pathological behavior with very large directories.11:46
fsmithredyeah, but that's what's in the list11:46
ted-iousThose problems got fixed in the last few versions of ext3 and in all recent ext4's.11:46
fsmithreduse the live. You should be done in less than 10 minutes after you finish formatting.11:46
rrqwhich filesystem type is it?11:47
fsmithredext4 without journal11:47
fsmithredoh, is there a way to disable the journal after the install?11:47
rrqok, so select ext4, and then don't format11:47
fsmithredcan't do it11:47
rrqis there a line saying "format it"?11:48
fsmithredUse as:11:48
fsmithredand then you can choose a mount point11:48
fsmithredand then you say Done setting up the partition11:49
fsmithredand it shows up in the partition list with f next to it.11:49
rrqno line that says "format" ?11:49
fsmithredwhere you can select it and go through the same choices again11:49
fsmithredunder Use as: there is "Do not use the parition"11:49
fsmithredyou can fiddle with mount options, but I don't know if that would help11:51
ted-iousLOL now the installer got to a point after I ran gparted and it prompted for a password11:52
rrqfor me the second line (after a gap) says "Format the partition: ..."11:52
ted-iousSo I hit enter and the installer closed.11:52
ted-iousThis is not encouraging.11:52
rrqthen "Mount point:"11:52
rrqthen "Mount options:" ...11:52
ted-iousHow did debian get this far with this installer?11:52
fsmithreddebian never used that live installer11:53
fsmithredted-ious, don't use gparted inside the installer11:53
rrqfsmithred: could you screenshot yours?11:53
fsmithredpartition and format first. Then tell the installer not to format, then skip the gparted section inside the installer.11:54
fsmithredrrq, which screen?11:54
rrqmmm I'm talking installer-iso ... you're talking libve installer?11:54
rrqon "Partition disks" dialog with disks and partition and "Configure" options, select the partition with Enter, and that's the dilog11:56
rrq(also named "Partition disks", but with "Done setting up the partition" as last choice)11:57
fsmithredThe screen with first choice is "Use as"11:57
fsmithredI got that one, the one before and the one after (the use as list)11:58
ted-iousIf I install all locales what does that actually do?11:58
ted-iousWill it take up gigs of space?11:58
fsmithredI think it does take up space11:58
fsmithredare you planning to switch language to any or all of them?11:59
ted-iousIs there an easy way to uninstall them later?11:59
fsmithreddpkg-reconfigure locales11:59
ted-iousNo I was just wondering if I had a server that needed support for users of many languages would it be less problematic to install all of them so I didn't have to worry about it later.11:59
ted-iousOk then I'm going to try it and see how much space it takes.12:00
ted-iousLooks like it locks up the cpu.12:03
ted-iousNo disk activity and the terminal window is just sitting there.12:05
ted-iousIs there a later version of the live dvd than 4.0.0?12:06
ted-iousI guess I'm going to have to abandon the locale experiment.12:06
fsmithredyes, there are daedalus isos12:08
fsmithredted-ious, is your root partition encrypted?12:08
ted-iousI mean a later chimaera live dvd like how there was a beowulf 3.1.12:09
ted-iousHmm I think I found the bug.12:09
fsmithredno point-release for chimaera12:09
ted-iousSelecting c.utf8 as the local made it fail the same way even without selecting all locales.12:10
fsmithredthe live isos are 4.0.3 but only to correct some errors.12:10
ted-iousOh ok.12:10
fsmithredthat's odd12:10
ted-iousI only have
fsmithredyeah, the installer isos are 4.0.012:10
ted-iousIt failed again.12:11
fsmithreddrop to console and check the syslog12:12
fsmithredalt-f1 or maybe alt-f4 will have useful output12:12
ted-iousTask manager says cpu at 100% but the host is idle.12:13
ted-iousOh now it's back.12:14
ted-iousCPU is back to noral.12:14
ted-iousI guess it just needs to do something intense with locales for a few minutes.12:15
ted-iousI typed sync in an xterm and it's just sitting there.12:16
ted-iousI think it's probably better to just script debootstrap and never use installers.12:19
ted-ious6 minutes of 100% cpu after I killed the installer and ran sync.12:20
fsmithredI don't know why the format line didn't show up for you. For me it didn't show up when the partition was encrypted. When I tried it with a regular ext4 partition, the format line showed up.12:24
ted-iousIt's running now.12:26
ted-iousFor some reason this time it didn't take minutes to figure out locales.12:26
ted-iousInstead it's taking minutes to install firmware.12:27
ted-iousI don't understand why it's still at 0% after 5 minutes.12:29
ted-iousStill at 0% after 40 minutes.13:02
rrqwhat does it say at vt4 ?13:07
rrqted-ious; ^^13:09
ted-iousI just killed the vm and I'm going to try again with the server install cd.13:10
ted-iousI noticed there's a new daedalus rc8 so I think maybe I should just go with that so I don't have to install chimaera and upgrade.13:11
rrqshould be fine13:11
leitzHey, good morning. Newbie question. I've been using Devuan for some older laptops, due to hardware constraints. I have another non-Devuan box that needs to run docker, and some server stuff, and yet another non-Devuan box that is a development workstation that occasionally does Amazon Prime video. Is there any reason not to use Devuan on all of them? The workstation uses NVME and spinning rust drives, and is multi-core/multi-gig ram.13:14
leitzSo far my only issue with Devuan is the lack of auto-installer like Kickstart/Jumpstart. If it can run what I use then I'll likely move to it.13:16
leitzOh, and a couple of RPis that will or do run Devuan.  :)13:16
leitzAnd an old MacTop that needs to be reused. And a 386 Toshiba.13:16
ted-iousI should probably not talk about my experiences with the installer. :)13:19
leitzted-ious, please, do! I'm all electron-receptors...13:20
ted-iousI'm have a miserable time trying to get it to do a simple install onto partitions I formatted.13:22
ted-iousI also keep running into bad behavior with locales.13:23
ted-iousIt looks like it's impossible to use the regular installer to choose utc as the time zone so I'll have to do that after it finishes.13:23
ted-iousAnd the time stamps will change.13:24
leitzHow responsive is the development team? Do they have an active bug-tracker?13:24
ted-iousYes but I usually just talk to people here.13:25
leitzI think we're talking before a lot of folks wake up...13:28
ted-iousSeveral folks have been talking with me over the past few hours.13:29
rrqleitz: you want to use Devaun for this and that? Good. Do it.13:33
rrqor Devuan rather .. I have problem with spelling today13:34
leitzrrq, more a question of "how complete is Devuan". I've used other distros before, and some are very complete, while some aren't.13:38
leitzSo far it seems pretty complete, but I haven't really tested everything I do on it, yet.13:38
rrqeverything in Debian (all packages) except thos that require systemd are available in Devuan.13:40
rrqi.e. regarded as a repository of packages, it is as complete as Debian13:41
critrleitz: devuan daedalus works fine with my nvme (including booting from it) and hard drives. as far as completeness goes, you get everything in the debian repos except things that can't be modified to work without systemd... a couple hundred packages i think.13:41
ted-iousHmm the server install iso doesn't know how to install all locales.13:42
rrqthose packages that require systemd have to a large extent also been forked to avoid that requirement13:42
ted-iousAlso doesn't know how to let you choose utc.13:42
ted-iousOh and also if you select c.utf8 it doesn't select any locales at all so I have to select them all by hand.13:43
rrqted-ious: if you don't have network backing then only the packages on the iso are available.13:43
rrqnot sure what you mean and expect wrt choose utc;13:45
ted-iousUTC should be an option to select for your location.13:46
rrqis UTC a timezone for any location?13:47
rrqwell, I suppose it is that you want the installed system run tied to UTC13:48
critrutc is tied to the prime meridian i think, which should run through london, which was once considered the "center of the world".13:53
rrqI see UTC is an option for "dpkg-reconfigure tzdata" in teh installed system, but yes the installe dialogs doesn't seem to offer that option13:54
fsmithredYou get UTC if you skip the locale settings13:55
fsmithredand you tell it that the hardware clock uses UTC13:56
fsmithredIf you can't choose the right time zone, go back to the locale setup and choose a country that uses the language you want in the time zone you want.13:56
fsmithredIf that won't work, then fix it after the install as rrq suggested.13:56
critrand make sure the hardware time actually is set to utc.13:57
rrqhmm the "configure the clock" dialog includes the UTC option13:58
rrq(expert mode installation)13:59
rrqted-ious: ^^13:59
rrqi.e. not via NTP since that uses location, and there is no location timezone for UTC (I guess)14:01
fsmithredUTC=Grennwich Mean Time is in UK14:02
fsmithredwith regular install it only shows you time zones for the locale you selected14:03
ted-iousrrq: I've tried hundreds of different combinations with these options including expert mode.14:03
rrqnext time, select "configure the clock", then "no" for NTO, and there it is.14:08
rrqNTO = NTP14:08
rrqfsmithred: GMT has daylight saving, and is 1 hour off UTC right now14:09
rrqI think it's labelled BST at least during summer (British Standard Time)14:10
rrqor British Summer Time perhaps?14:11
fsmithredI will be afk for next few hours.14:16
leitzcritr, is there a hardware compatiblity list for video cards? I have a Radeon RX580.14:16
critrleitz: daedalus supports my rx6500 xt. the rx580 is a few years older, so should be supported by installing firmware-amd-graphics.14:24
leitzcritr, dDedalus is after Chimera? I don't see Daedalus on the home page.14:25
gnarfaceleitz: yes, daedalus is after chimaera and corresponds to the current debian stable, it's just not officially released here yet because of various outstanding installer issues15:07
gnarfaceted-ious: i was certain there was a UTC option in the installer, at least in expert mode15:08
leitzgnarface, rough estimate of when Daedalus will be released? Is it in RC status? I'm not in a rush.15:11
gnarfaceleitz: probably pretty soon15:14
gnarfaceit seems mostly done15:14
gnarfaceby all accounts15:14
leitzgnarface, cool. I'll wait until it's out, and then do the upgrades. Only one node has anything I intend to save, the others are rebuildable.15:15
ted-iousgnarface: It's there in some installers but not in others.15:18
ted-iousI really need to script this debootstrap istallation method.15:29
ted-iousAnd I'm spoiled for ssd's now.15:29
ted-iousDoing a second install on a rusty disk is taking hours.15:29
ted-iousI bet I could kill it and start over on ssd and be done faster.15:30
gnarfacethe devuan installers should support preseeding the same way as the debian ones15:30
djphhours on spinning rust?  that sounds ... not right15:30
ted-iousIt looks like it's going to take half an hour just for dpkg-reconfigure locales.15:31
nemointeresting... I just noticed the ubuntu systemd VMs take significantly longer to reboot than the devuan VMs. odd.16:16
nemoI'd blame atlassian startup, although I really should get ssh well before that fires up16:17
nemomaybe it kills my ssh before shutting down atlassian, and it's the shutdown that is slow.16:17
nemoI supppose I should profile it sometime ☺16:17
ted-iousWhich grub packages need to be installed for a non-efi vm?16:30
ted-iousMaybe just apt install grub isn't enough.17:01
ted-iousI ran grub-install and grub-mkconfig successfully but I get a blank grub prompt and no boot entries.17:01
ted-iousI don't have a /boot/grub/grubenv file.17:10
ted-iousDid devuan stop supporting non-efi installs?17:11
buZzi run daedalus and have that file17:19
ted-iousThis installation process is turning out to be more trouble than it's worth.17:25
buZzi have no clue what you're doing :)17:25
ted-iousIf I had more system resources available I could have built a new gentoo system from scratch in half the time.17:25
ted-iousI'm trying to create a chimaera vm on an ext4 partition without a journal.17:26
buZzext4 without a journal? :D17:26
ted-iousAll I need is one option to mkfs during the install.17:26
ted-iousBut since the installer can't handle that I have to jump through hours of hoops.17:27
buZzso you're debootstrapping?17:27
ted-iousYes running ext4 with a journal on top of another journalling filesystem is really bad for ssd's.17:27
ted-iousWrite amplification from each level of journaling goes thru the roof.17:27
ted-iousYes I debootstrapped but plenty of things don't work as easily as I expected.17:28
buZzeasy is the enemy of knowledge17:29
ted-iousKnowledge does not come from needless failure nor from failure without later success.17:35
ted-iousIf doing everything the hard way was better we wouldn't have shell scripts or high level programming languages.17:36
ted-iousI just think debian is a crusty old system and devuan has to work around its many faults.17:37
ted-iousI'm going to throw away the system and do it the silly way since at least I know it will work.17:38
ted-iousYeah this is unusable.17:44
ted-iousgrub can't even accept the kernel and initrd commands typed in by hand.17:44
ted-iousI've never seen a system broken like this.17:45
ted-iousOk now I think I should be ready to dist-upgrade.18:59
gnarfaceted-ious: it shouldn't take that long to generate locales unless you chose to generate all of them23:57
gnarfaceto be honest a lot of the problems you're seeing that nobody else has seen have hints of being self-inflicted23:57

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