libera/#devuan/ Sunday, 2023-09-03

systemdletedoes hibernate work, and if so, is it reliable (vs buggy)?00:57
debdogsystemdlete: what devuan release?00:57
systemdlete(hi debdog!)00:58
systemdleteI'm about to try it on a PC with daedalus boot00:58
systemdletebut just wondering if there are major known issues I need to know00:58
debdogsince daedalus is pretty new, you prolly doing field work00:59
systemdletegood to know at least that much00:59
debdogbut I've heard the situation has improved over chimaera01:00
systemdletelooks like I need to add some software to make that option appear in xfce status UI01:00
* debdog has closed his laptop's lid once on daedalus and the system came back after opening it again01:01
systemdleteare you sure that isn't suspend?01:01
debdoghehe,  what's the difference01:01
systemdleteas in suspend to ram as opposed to suspend to disk?01:01
debdogit's realted01:01
systemdletesuspend to ram works here01:01
debdogIIRC GPU drivers are the ones causing the most troubles01:02
systemdleteMy daedalus install does not have a hibernate option in the shut down options01:04
systemdletethe debian wiki suggests installing a gnome button exxtension01:04
systemdleteidc, it's a test box.01:05
debdoghehe, that's the spirit01:06
debdogbeing like a child01:06
systemdleteyes.  It's amazing how our formalized educational system has managed to kill that innocent instinct to be curious.  Everything is "don't touch unless you get permission first"01:07
systemdletebut that's getting OT01:07
systemdleteand I don't want to face an arrest here01:07
gnarfacehibernate should work on everything, in theory. it doesn't require special hardware features like suspend does, it just requires a swap partition equal to or larger than the size of your physical ram01:14
gnarfaceas long as you have the pm-utils package, you should be able to test it by calling /usr/sbin/pm-hibernate directly (as root)01:14
systemdletethe hibernate option in the options menu is grayed out.  xfce4 wiki indicats this is because os does not support it01:15
systemdleteah... pm-hibernate01:16
gnarfaceon some older PCs, it's proper functionality may be contingent upon a particular bios setting to do with (memory foggy here) something like "memory hole remapping at 15k" being set correctly (on or off i don't even remember anymore, but it was important)01:16
gnarfacethe xfce4 graphical option is probably just greyed out because you're missing a particular xfce package and/or setting01:17
gnarfacenote though that on lots of hardware this won't actually save you any time booting up01:18
* systemdlete is install pm-utils right now01:18
gnarface(especially if you're doing something like restoring a 16GB ram image from spinning rust)01:19
systemdleteis FX8350 "spinning rust"?01:19
gnarfaceno i mean harddrives01:19
systemdleteanyway, I'm not trying to save time.01:19
gnarfacejust be aware that it's not always obvious when it's actually working, because it typically causes a LLOOOONGG black-screen pause during boot up01:20
systemdleteI just want to be able to suspend my system to disk, boot a thumbdrive and do something with it, then resume whatever I was doing beore01:20
gnarfaceresuming from a thumb drive is going to be even slower01:20
systemdletegnarface, yeah... when the boot is trying to find a resume image01:20
systemdleteresuming from the disk.01:21
systemdleteWhat I am saying is...01:21
gnarfaceit's gotta literally physically load the entire swap partition back into ram, not just "find it"01:21
systemdleteI want to shudown my hard-disk based system to disk, boot up something else entirely, maybe off a USB, do stuff with that (but not touching the suspended disks), then quit the USB stuff, and then RESUME the hard-disk based system01:22
gnarfaceso whatever the raw speed of reading 16GB of data off your disk is, in whatever the default speed the bios syncs the drive up as, that's the new minimum boot time with resume from hibernate01:22
systemdleteI think these are 5400 drives, one might be 7200, irdr now01:22
systemdleteand to make things more awful, this is 32G01:22
gnarfaceoh wow. that's gonna be... educational. i'm just trying to warn you against false positives; it may seem like it's hung when it's actually working. just be patient.01:23
systemdleteI'm not planning on doing this a lot... although, depending how things turn out I might change my mind01:23
fsmithredwhy not just do whatever on the usb in a chroot?01:23
fsmithredthen you don't have to reboot01:23
systemdletegnarface, you are asking me to be patient.   :D01:23
systemdletefsmithred, this usb thingy seems to require taking over the entire hardware01:23
gnarfaceheh, fair enough01:24
systemdleteotherwise, yeah, I'd be doing it in a VM anyway01:24
systemdleteI am pretty sure I've seen suspend-to-disk/resume-from-disk work in at least chimaera01:24
fsmithredhibernate to disk or suspend to ram01:25
fsmithredand then some kind of hybrid that I don't know01:25
systemdleteright.  But even after installing pm-utils, the hibernate option is still disabled for some reason.01:26
fsmithredI get variable results with suspend to ram in chimaera and daedalus.01:26
systemdleteI'm getting good results here with either.01:26
fsmithredyou have a swap partition as big as your ram?01:26
systemdleteI'd better!01:27
systemdletebut I'll double-check01:27
fsmithredwell, not having that would be a reason for hibernate to be greyed-out01:28
systemdleteUsually, when I create a system, I make sure my swap is at least 2x my RAM01:28
systemdletethe xfce wiki only says that the greyed-out button is if the OS does not support it01:28
fsmithredwhat does that mean?01:29
systemdleteI think that's referring to the absence of supporting software01:29
systemdletepm-utils maybe01:29
systemdletebut anyway, fsmithred, I think you nailed it.01:30
systemdleteWhen I built the box originally, it only has 16G.  But I've replace it with 32G.  So the original 20G of swap is not enough.  I will add some...01:30
gnarfacesystemdlete: you have acpi installed too, right?01:31
systemdletecan the swap be spread over multiple devices?01:31
systemdletegnarface, hold on01:31
gnarfaceswap can, but i have no idea if that will sabotage hibernate or not01:31
gnarfacenever tested it, dunno if it has to be contiguous01:32
systemdlete(that's wwhat I meant...)01:32
systemdleteOK, just installed acpid.  No change with the options.  But I see I am short of swap.01:35
systemdleteSo I am looking for some more space...01:36
systemdleteI feel like somebody calling the Georgia Secretary of State and telling them I just need 12G of additional swap so I can win01:36
systemdleteI've got gobs of hardware here, including disks.  No reason for this other than I am chinsy.01:37
gnarfacehehe, well there's always USB...01:37
systemdleteA test box deserves some large disks, doesn't it?01:37
systemdleteOf course, that will eat the rest of the day...01:37
gnarfacei don't actually have any reason to believe resuming from suspend on a usb swap partition will actually work01:37
gnarfaceit might depend on the motherboard01:38
fsmithredoh, that might be my resume problem on this laptop! I'm running off a usb.01:38
fsmithredthanks, gnarface01:38
systemdleteeh.  I'll stick with real disk01:39
gnarfacefsmithred: only thing i can think of that might fix it, just maybe, is if you go into the bios and find a setting for something like "usb legacy mode" enable it01:39
fsmithredmaybe. I'm actually ok with not suspending this laptop.01:40
gnarfaceusb legacy mode does something analogous for keyboards, i don't know specifically if it'd work for block devices too but it'd be worth a try01:40
fsmithredI've got a minimal lxqt install on an old EEE netbook, and suspend works corretly on that. I didn't have to mess with settings at all.01:41
fsmithredI think I have a hardware problem, because I sometimes get syslog messages asking if the usb cable is bad.01:42
fsmithredAnd that coincides with getting I/O errors in a terminal01:43
systemdleteok, found some space.  And that's without help from Rathensburger01:43
systemdlete(just to continue the OT silliness)01:43
systemdleteokay... so the hibernate option is no longer grayed out.  Reason:  I had to set the correct UUID in /etc/initramfs-tools/conf.d/resume *and* add "resume=UUID=same_correct_uuid" to /etc/default/grub default boot line02:14
systemdletethen run update-grub, update-initramfs and reboot.02:14
systemdletenow, for the test... (drumroll)02:14
DelTomixwe are all counting on you02:15
gnarfacegood luck!02:15
systemdleteit worked!02:16
systemdleteand it really wasn't too long02:16
systemdletemaybe 10-15 seconds or so down and up again02:16
systemdlete(aside from the hw boot itself I mean)02:17
systemdleteso to answer my own question:  the resume= parameters in those 2 files must point to the same UUID, and I'm guessing it must be just that one.02:18
gnarfaceyour bios must be smart enough to not bring the disks up in PIO mode :-p02:18
gnarfaceit's not always a given02:18
systemdleteand maybe that's a bios option?02:18
gnarfacei've never seen it off by default, but i've seen some raid cards that couldn't set dma speeds right until the linux kernel loaded02:19
systemdleteyeah.  Now that I'm thinking about it... I do seem to recall something about hibernation and sleep not always working right because of that02:19
gnarfaceloading 32GB in PIO mode would take so long it would certainly appear frozen02:20
systemdletewell, I did get the blank screen of who-knows-how-long, but like I said, it only took about 10 seconds or so02:20
gnarfacethat's good. those are good resume times.02:20
systemdleteand for as often as I am currently planning to do this, I think it will be OK.02:21
systemdleteactually, maybe I SHOULD hibernate the box since it's a test box that I don't use all the time.02:21
gnarfacenow the real test; make sure none of the drivers went insane while hibernating. (nvidia's linux drivers are especially bad at waking up from various states)02:21
DelTomixnow you have me thinking I should set this up on beaker  (my test box)02:22
gnarfacehmm, i wonder if he tripped on a driver fault02:33
gnarfacesystemdlete: driver issue?02:49
systemdletegnarface, driver issue... ?02:52
gnarfacesystemdlete: oh, your irc connection ping timed out shortly after i was warning you about nvidia driver instability on resume so i thought maybe you got hit by it headlong02:54
systemdleteyeah, I've been having some odd problem for a few days now where my modem quits the DHCP lease (maybe at the ISP, idk)02:55
systemdleteI reboot my openwrt router and that fixes it.02:56
systemdletelast thing I wrote was I don't see any options about PIO mode.  Then it quit02:57
systemdleteso anything after that I didn't get02:57
systemdletegnarface, is PIO only an option for SATA perhaps?03:17
systemdleteidk much about this.03:17
gnarfacesystemdlete: no, PIO is also a PATA thing. you might see it in the BIOS under the disk setup parts that you don't have to mess with anymore on modern computers, but sometimes would have to go into that section to set up cylander counts and stuff on older machines back in the 90's03:19
systemdleteoh, like LBA option, which is nowadays pretty much standard03:19
systemdlete(I remember those!)03:19
gnarfaceyea. auto-detect always works for those these days. but way back in the day you'd have to sometimes actually go set stuff manually in that section. you will also see supported PIO modes of a given disk listed in the output of hdparm -I03:20
systemdleteanyway, is there any advantage to switching from IDE to AHCI mode?03:20
gnarfacespeed, theoretically, but it can cause compatibility issues in some cases03:20
systemdleteand can it be done safely, without damaging my data?03:20
gnarfaceprobably, unless it's a RAID array03:21
systemdletewell, actually there are 2 disks in all of my machines as RAID 1 members03:21
systemdletebut I run software RAID 1 (mdadm)03:21
systemdleteI don't use the bios for RAID03:21
gnarfacei couldn't say if it will affect software raid or not03:21
gnarfacebut in bios raid setups i've usually seen AHCI set in opposition to RAID mode while IDE mode is sometimes listed as equivalent03:22
gnarfacei wouldn't expect it to corrupt any data, i'd expect it to just not boot, but like i said i'm not certain03:23
gnarfaceand to be clear, don't worry about that PIO thing. it's basically just the legacy fallback mode you get if DMA/UDMA fails.03:24
systemdletethis bios lists all 3 as options for each individual dirve03:24
gnarfaceif you loaded a 32GB hibernation image in 10s you're definitely using (U)DMA03:24
systemdleteI think it is awesome.03:24
gnarfacehmm, does the motherboard manual mention any definitions? usually the limitations are bios specific03:25
systemdleteeh... I think I might actually have the manual here.03:25
systemdleteIt's a slightly different board than the one that came with this manual03:26
systemdletebut I think they are probably the same bios03:26
gnarfaceok, feel free to use AHCI for software raid, according to the same question answered here on tomshardware:
gnarfacethat matches what i'd guess, so i'd say try it03:27
systemdleteah, good old tom's hardware03:27
gnarfacesince you're not booting from the raid array, just from a single disk, the bios won't care03:27
systemdletewhat I can do is disable one drive and and see if the thing still boots.  Then I can sync the other drive.03:28
systemdleteif not, then I can boot off the other and sync the other03:28
systemdleteset to [IDE] when you want to use the serial ATA hard disk drive as Parallel ATA physcial storage devices03:35
systemdleteset to [RAID] when you want to create a RAID configuration from the SATA hard disk drives03:35
systemdleteset to [AHCI] when you wnt th SATA hard disk drives to use the AHCI (Advanced HOst Controller Interface).03:36
systemdlete(sorry for the bad typing.  you get the idea)03:36
gnarfacehmm, i have to assume that they mean for hardware raid in that case though03:36
systemdlete yes, I think so.03:36
systemdleteI tried a raid card once a few years ago. It was such a nuisance to set up that I opted for mdadm instead.  (mdadm had just replace the older raid tools then)03:37
systemdleteI think maybe c. 2007-2010 or so?03:38
systemdletein fact, iirc, it required the use of a windows tool (came with it).03:38
systemdletewow.  Not only was it able to boot under ahci, but it did so from resume!03:43
systemdletenow, if I hot-plug the other disk, will it sync?03:44
gnarfaceuh... i wouldn't gamble on SATA hotplug being actually implemented and available for internal SATA connections03:45
systemdleteactually, it works03:46
systemdleteI have a 4 bay unit that supports hotplug03:46
systemdleteI don't do it often, but when I have, it has always worked03:46
gnarfaceah, i've heard mixed opinions about whether that is supposed to be a requirement of the spec, but i've almost never seen it actually implemented for motherboards' internal ports, only the "esata" back panel connectors03:47
systemdleteI think I've heard the same muddy message as well.03:51
systemdleteI'm pretty sure these 4-bay units were designed for use with hotswapping/hotplugging.03:52
systemdletebut I think these units have no real smarts themselves.03:52
systemdleteI have 2 kingwin 4-bay units, one on my test box and the other on a different box.03:53
systemdletethey have SATA power and data connectors in the back of each slot, and those just get connected to the mainboard.  There's no contoller card to plug in.  And I don't see any internal card on either.03:55
gnarfacei honestly couldn't recommend trusting them to be hotplug safe without getting a more authoritative answer about it. i've heard people even succeeding at hotplug removal of pata disks if they're lucky and fast... once or twice before it fries something03:56
systemdletethese are sata not pata disks03:57
gnarfaceyea i know, but my point still stands, as i'm not sure you can trust sata hotplug to always be actually a furnished feature everywhere03:57
systemdleteand I have not tried hotswap or hotplug with IDE drives when I had them.   I was aware that they could be problematic03:58
rwpAlways use AHCI if available.  It's the right answer.04:03
systemdletein the bios, under each sata drive slot, there are options, including things like PIO (0-4 and auto).  I have auto set for nearly everything in the bios.04:03
rwpIDE devices were generally not hotswappable.04:04
rwpAll SATA/SAS device hardware is hotswappable by specification.  And I have often hotswapped them.04:04
systemdlete(rwp, yes, that's what I just read at the link)04:11
systemdlete(and my drives are mostly WD)04:11
systemdleteswitching modes from IDE to AHCI did not do any damage that I can tell.04:11
systemdleteI think the pins on the connectors are designed so that they are either all in or not at once.   The only caveat is they warn not to use molex power connectors.04:12
systemdleterwp:  I have IDE hotswap bays that were able to do it.04:13
systemdletebut that's because they were designed for that (and I paid a good bit of money for them, iirc)04:13
systemdletethis hibernate and suspend thing is so wicked!  I love it.04:22
rwpsystemdlete, IDE was not *generally* hotswap.  But yes there were setups that would do it.  But all SATA/SAS hardware is hotswappable.08:02
rwpWelcome to the joys of suspend and hibernate!08:03
systemdleterwp: ty!08:04
systemdleteI can't get over how well it works.  It works even if I am running VMs!08:04
systemdleterestores all of it, no crashes08:04
stratoI got this problem:10:20
strato2 Nearly identical Beowulf fully upgraded, (with X), start to reboot10:20
stratorandomly. I tryed chimera and daedelus on one of them, same problem.10:20
stratoThen I installed devuan_chimaera_4.0.0_i386_server.iso (without X)10:20
stratoon one of them and it has been stable for 3 days.10:20
stratoThe other still reboots randomly within few hours.10:20
stratoAny sugestion ?10:20
jaromilIt is very likely an hardware problem. I had such problems in the past and changing RAM or even mo/bo solved10:25
stratoBut 2 servers nearly at the same time?10:25
onefangPower glitches maybe?10:46
stratoI thought so, but now they are running two different location.10:49
stratoI have a suspision, Could it be conectet to a upgrade, but then agian, I got other servers with nearly the same config.10:50
gnarfacestrato: the first thing i would suspect is the power supply or the power source12:31
gnarfaceweak and failing power supplies do that, and so do computers on flaky power grids12:33
gnarfacecould be the video cards failure or a regression in the video drivers but the behavior you describe is more like a power issue and disabling X would also make the video card use less power (by a lot, in some cases)12:34
gnarfacea few years ago i started having a problem with my computers randomly rebooting too. i gave them all on battery backup power and that stopped.12:36
gnarface*put them all on...12:37
stratoInterresting: I will demount X if this continue, and see if that's the issue.12:44
gnarfacestrato: depending on the generation of hardware, overheating could also be the issue. a thorough check of the fans is probably in order too.15:30
buZzstrato: 32bit? :O15:31
buZzjust how old -are- these servers :D15:31
buZzbut also , i highly recommend not running any GUI on servers that are actually servers15:31
buZzalso; if its a decent server, you might be able to see a event log in IPMI/whichever about the reboot reasons15:32
XenguyYeah, if it's a 'server' per se, X should not be running15:37
gnarfaceyea, but it also really shouldn't be causing it to reboot. i've seen lots of video driver and video hardware failures, and they sometimes lockup the system, but they usually just cause rendering anomalies, rarely reboots.15:39
gnarfacereboots are usually heat or power15:39
gnarfacetoo much or too little, respectively15:40
buZzi've had some old poweredge that kept rebooting because diskcontrollers battery was empty15:40
buZzyeeted the whole battery, no backup anymore, worked fine since15:40
gnarface... and happening across 3 releases strongly suggests it's not the drivers15:41
gnarfacehappening to two of the same models of the same age, now that could be hardware failure15:41
gnarfacebut if this was in california i'd definitely bet on it just being the shitty power grid doing this, and suggest you waste no time getting UPSes15:42
gnarfacethe cheap little UPSes i get have a digital counter on them and they've been counting up at a rate of dozens of events per year for the past several15:44
gnarfacebut none of my computers spontaneously reboot anymore15:44
gnarfacenot even the ones with nvidia cards15:44
buZzyeah many PSUs dont really like when your 240V suddenly drops to 200V15:55
buZzor equivalent for edison nations15:55
bb|hcbbuZz: California is on 110V ;) BTW. Most PSUs are designed to work 100-240V, so 200V instead of 220V is a lesser problem. Power suges and/or drops are a bigger problem16:31
buZzbb|hcb: yeah most nations that fell for Edisons stolen tech went for 110V16:32
bb|hcb... and the instability, especially in oldish hw is due to drying capacitors16:36
buZzcould be, sure16:37
gnarfacehello al1r4d, you know you don't need permission to ask questions right?16:47
al1r4dgnarface, nope, i dont want to ask, just say hello16:47
al1r4dI'm addicted to openbsd haha16:48
golinuxWhich is offtopic here17:05
user24037hi; how should i use custom dns resolver? setting in my router is not an option19:19
gnarfaceuser24037: you should be able to set it in /etc/resolv.conf19:20
gnarfacewell, it could get ignored or overwritten by networkmanager or the like19:21
gnarfaceif you're using a graphical network setup tool it should have that feature19:21
gnarfaceyou might have to switch to manual configuration from dhcp19:21
user24037OK. i had been looking at generating a resolv.conf with the resolvconf service but it wasn't working. maybe manual configuration makes more sense.19:23
gnarfaceuser24037: the resolvconf package just lets you set the dns in /etc/network/interfaces instead, but that would also conflict with things like networkmanager19:23
user24037i don't think i have networkmanager. i used to run wicd but that got depreciated19:24
gnarfacewhatever you used for dhcp should have created a working /etc/resolv.conf then19:25
gnarfaceyou should be able to just edit it, as long as dhcp is disabled19:25
fsmithredIf you do have network-manager, it will be polite enough to leave you a note when it clobbers your custom settings in /etc/resolv.conf19:30

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