| nixonix | on study, but binding: "2 doses of mRNA-1273 compared with those vac-cinated with BNT162b2 (geometric mean titer [GMT], 3836 U/mL [95% CI, 3586-4104] vs 1444 U/mL [95% CI, 1350-1544] | 00:02 |
|---|---|---|
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: "The U.S. is falling to the lowest vaccination rates of the world’s wealthiest democracies"@OurWorldinDatahttps://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/09/11/world/covid-delta-variant-vaccine?type=styln-live-updates&label=coronavirus%20updates&index=0#us-vaccination-rate-low by @AlyssaLukpat → https://is.gd/cNHY43 | 00:03 |
| nixonix | another study, binding too: "Recipients aged 50 years and older who received BNT162b2 had postboost IgG levels (31.1 μg/mL [95% CI, 19.9-48.7 μg/mL]) that were lower than the levels in younger recipients of BNT162b2 (59.0 μg/mL [95% CI, 48.8-71.4 μg/mL]) and age-similar peers who received mRNA-1273 (71.8 μg/mL [95% CI, 58.1-88.8 μg/mL]) | 00:06 |
| nixonix | according to that, over 2x diff for >50 yo, but marginally for <50. but yeah, binding abs | 00:07 |
| nixonix | now moderna wants to give only 50 mcg boosters, but u.s. health officials are thinking, maybe 100 would last better | 00:09 |
| nixonix | i think moderna is right on that, 50 would be more profitable | 00:09 |
| nixonix | quotes were: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2783797 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2783685 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.06.21261707v2 | 00:15 |
| nixonix | "spike protein binds to cells called pericytes which line the small vessels of the heart. This binding triggers a cascade of changes which disrupt normal cell function, and lead to the release of chemicals that cause inflammation. This happened even when the protein was no-longer attached to the virus | 00:25 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.bhf.org.uk/what-we-do/news-from-the-bhf/news-archive/2021/august/covid-19-spike-protein-binds-to-and-changes-cells-in-the-heart | 00:26 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.bhf.org.uk: Covid-19 spike protein binds to and changes cells in the heart | 00:26 |
| nixonix | .title https://research-information.bris.ac.uk/en/publications/the-sars-cov-2-spike-protein-alters-human-cardiac-pericyte-functi | 00:27 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From research-information.bris.ac.uk: The SARS-CoV-2 Spike protein alters human cardiac pericyte function and interaction with endothelial cells through a non-infective mechanism involving activation of CD147 receptor signalling. — [...] | 00:27 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: I changed the ICU name for this cartoon. Most of the people in it have been fed unmitigated misinformation, which has not been aggressively countered since well before the US vaccine campaign began.And many kids who've suffered collateral damage from this too → https://is.gd/3rVxk3 | 01:38 |
| nixonix | hints of OAS, perhaps | 02:06 |
| nixonix | "IgG clones directed against seasonal coronavirus were boosted in patients with severe COVID-19. These boosted clones showed limited cross-reactivity and did not neutralize SARS-CoV-2. These findings support a boost of poorly protective coronavirus-specific antibodies in COVID-19 patients that correlates with disease severity, revealing original | 02:06 |
| nixonix | antigenic sin. | 02:06 |
| nixonix | which isnt between rona variants or vaccines, though | 02:07 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.jci.org/articles/view/150613 | 02:08 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.jci.org: JCI - Seasonal coronavirus-specific B-cells with limited SARS-CoV-2 cross-reactivity dominate the IgG response in severe COVID-19 patients | 02:08 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-24938-4 and there was this | 02:09 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.nature.com: SARS-CoV-2 specific T cell responses are lower in children and increase with age and time after infection | Nature Communications | 02:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: These days we'll take any sign of progress, however small.The 1st time US covid hospitalizations have dropped below 100,000 in nearly 3 weeks → https://is.gd/Taqrhb | 02:09 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.cell.com/med/fulltext/S2666-6340(21)00289-0 or this way | 02:11 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.cell.com: Protective heterologous T cell immunity in COVID-19 induced by the trivalent MMR and Tdap vaccine antigens: Med | 02:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): When can I get a booster dose.: I'm general public, not immunocompromised, but I used to work in healthcare so I got my vaccine back in December of 2020. I'm already 9 months out and want a booster dose asap. Why the holdup? When can I expect to be able to get a booster. → https://is.gd/Lm4Vj2 | 02:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @michaelmina_lab: RT by @EricTopol: In UK, any household can get a **7-pack** of rapid tests every day for free…An incredible example of what taking a true public health approach with regard to #COVID19 testing looks like. → https://is.gd/WOIuC7 | 02:41 |
| nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1429078038931664904 its wide already, what ive seen in tweets | 02:46 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "While the debate about boosters ensues, the imminent FDA full approval will usher in millions of prescriptions by doctors for them https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-poised-to- [...] | 02:46 |
| LjL | do you think at this point there might be a considerable difference between FFP2 and FFP3 (assuming both are good masks)? | 03:18 |
| LjL | there certainly is a price difference so if there is little efficacy difference, i may as well save money | 03:18 |
| nixonix | maybe look at tightness, and perhaps 3M or not. idk | 03:26 |
| LjL | yes i'm looking at 3M Auras | 03:26 |
| LjL | just wondering whether the price premium of FFP3 is worth over FFP2 | 03:27 |
| LjL | they are the same otherwise | 03:27 |
| nixonix | that was pretty much my knowledge there | 03:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: China administered total of 2.14 bln doses of COVID-19 vaccines as of Sept 10 → https://is.gd/Oi7pAF | 04:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: CDC study: Unvaccinated 11 times more likely to die from Covid-19 → https://is.gd/wn9s8y | 04:26 |
| de-facto | according to RKI stats 20 times in Germany | 04:29 |
| nixonix | We noted higher NAb titers (at 4 weeks post second dose of both regimens, all infection-naïve) in individuals vaccinated using the long interval regimen, with a 2-4 fold increase in titer, depending on the variant tested (Figure 3A), with a correlation across time | 05:00 |
| nixonix | .title https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3891065 | 05:00 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From papers.ssrn.com: Sustained T Cell Immunity, Protection and Boosting Using Extended Dosing Intervals of BNT162b2 mRNA Vaccine by Rebecca P. Payne, Stephanie Longet, James A. Austin, Donal Skelly, Wanwisa Dejnirattisai, [...] | 05:00 |
| nixonix | When looking at the delta variant, researchers also noted that, though there were good levels of antibodies after the shorter dosing interval, levels were 2.3-fold higher with the longer dosing interval. | 05:00 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n1875 | 05:00 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.bmj.com: Covid-19: Longer interval between Pfizer doses results in higher antibody levels, research finds | The BMJ | 05:00 |
| nixonix | “short” 3-5 week interval (median 24 days, IQR 21-26, range 14-34), or a “long” 6-14 week interval (median 70 days, IQR 63-77, range 44-99) | 05:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from This Week In Virology: TWiV 804: A tangled web of viruses with Mya Breitbart: Virus hunter Mya Breitbart joins TWiV to describe her laboratory’s work on viruses in spiders, insects, millipedes, freshwater springs, seawater, plants, human feces and much more. → https://is.gd/GMiQX8 | 06:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Large Israeli study: Natural immunity provides 13 times more protection against delta than Pfizer vaccine does → https://is.gd/wyAWcc | 06:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Boys more likely to be hospitalised with rare side-effect of Pfizer vaccine than covid itself, claims US study → https://is.gd/QmJ3nZ | 07:54 |
| twomoon | The researchers assessed medical data which showed that boys aged 12 to 15, with no pre-existing medical conditions, are four to six times more likely to be diagnosed with vaccine-induced myocarditis — or inflammation of the heart — than being hospitalised with Covid. | 07:58 |
| twomoon | wuuut | 07:58 |
| \mSg | I'll await peer-review. | 08:45 |
| grys | i wonder what do reviewers do | 08:56 |
| grys | it is easy for submitter to present fake data - for any medical study - so there got to be a procedure for this | 08:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Parents of young children desperately seek vaccine trials → https://is.gd/HSGwXH | 08:57 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | September 12, 2021: Please refer to our Wiki for more information on COVID-19 and our sub. You can find answers to frequently asked questions in our FAQ , where there is valuable information such as our: → https://is.gd/mccFSm | 09:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Boris bows to Tory fury by 'abandoning compulsory Covid passports in England' → https://is.gd/P3qQ7q | 09:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: England vaccine passport plans ditched, Javid says: A vaccine passport scheme for nightclubs and large events in England will not be going ahead, minister says. → https://is.gd/55AurK | 11:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV: Massive numbers of new COVID–19 infections, not vaccines, are the main driver of new coronavirus variants - Vaughn Cooper, Professor of Microbiology & Molecular Genetics & Lee Harrison, Professor of Epidemiology, Medicine, & Infectious Diseases and Microbiology → https://is.gd/i6iXMH | 12:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: British politics: England scraps vaccine passport plan → https://is.gd/089zwT | 12:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from Ars Technica: Science: As COVID cases rise, so do hospital-related infections → https://is.gd/9Tl34C | 13:27 |
| pwr22 | Yeah the UK has flip flopped again 🙄 | 15:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: In Mississippi, Fetal Deaths Double Among Unvaccinated Pregnant Women With COVID-19 → https://is.gd/o3hLbH | 15:23 |
| pwr22 | s/Yeah/Yay/ | 15:24 |
| ublx | it did? | 15:24 |
| ublx | what did we do this time? | 15:24 |
| pwr22 | No vaccine passports for things like night clubs | 15:25 |
| pwr22 | No lockdowns | 15:25 |
| pwr22 | According to the off brand Matt Hancock | 15:26 |
| ublx | you see them flipflopping on the lockdown question come december/jan? | 15:26 |
| pwr22 | I'm not sure how they can make the assertions they have | 15:26 |
| pwr22 | Especially about Christmas being normal | 15:27 |
| pwr22 | I think we'll have another lockdown before then personally | 15:27 |
| pwr22 | I hope to be wrong | 15:27 |
| ublx | maybe if nothing worse than delta gets a toehold | 15:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: No vaccine passports: UK PM to set out winter COVID-19 plan → https://is.gd/TgBEe4 | 16:57 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: UK ditches plans for vaccine passports at crowded venues → https://is.gd/INhQCi | 17:29 |
| nixonix | rogue antibodies, known as autoantibodies, are also present in a small proportion of healthy, uninfected individuals — and their prevalence increases with age .. around 10% of people with severe COVID-19 had autoantibodies that attack and block type 1 interferons .. Autoantibodies were also present in 18% of people who had died of the disease | 17:53 |
| nixonix | 0.18% of those between 18 and 69 had existing autoantibodies against type 1 interferon, and that this proportion increased with age: autoantibodies were present in around 1.1% of 70- to 79-year-olds, and 3.4% of those over the age of 80 | 17:54 |
| nixonix | but 10/18% for severe/died. i wonder how it is with different age groups. and if risk groups like diabetics, obese etc have overpresentation among those with inf-I autoabs, and perhaps for some of them even connection, like those autoantibodies cause or consequence of their condition | 18:00 |
| nixonix | tells that maybe its not a good idea to get convalescent plasma for therapeutics from those with severe symptoms | 18:01 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.20.21262158v1 | 18:15 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.medrxiv.org: Virological characteristics of SARS-CoV-2 vaccine breakthrough infections in health care workers | medRxiv | 18:15 |
| Wikipedia | anyone can tell me | 18:18 |
| Wikipedia | how to get the data of new confirm local cases in Bhutan | 18:20 |
| LjL | %cases bhutan | 18:21 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: Bhutan has had 2596 confirmed cases (0.4% of all people) and 3 deaths (0.1% of cases) as of 12 days ago. 798573 tests were done (0.3% positive). 567143 were vaccinated (76.5%). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Bhutan | 18:21 |
| de-facto | https://www.facebook.com/MoHBhutan/photos/4479474908780757 | 18:21 |
| Wikipedia | (which NOT contain cases from abroad) | 18:21 |
| nixonix | anyone tried to find out rona data on turkmenistan? | 18:22 |
| Wikipedia | ur data is not what i need() | 18:22 |
| nixonix | "ACE2 receptor is also present at the level of the proximal tubules, which collect newly formed urine. Kidney damage is observed in approximately 5% in mild forms of COVID-19, a percentage that reaches 30% in patients with intensive care | 18:23 |
| Wikipedia | turkmen has no cases | 18:23 |
| de-facto | https://www.gov.bt/covid19/ | 18:23 |
| Wikipedia | oh sorry,i misunderstood | 18:23 |
| nixonix | (fat cells) "The possibility that adipose tissue may serve as a reservoir for viral production is another factor that might contribute to the increased risk from COVID-19 for patients with obesity .. adipocytes express ACE2 receptor for SARS-CoV-2 as well as TMPRSS2 | 18:24 |
| de-facto | http://www.moh.gov.bt/ | 18:25 |
| nixonix | "possible link between the severity of SARS-CoV-2 infection and the amount of adipose tissue comes from the recent identification that interferon increase ACE2 expression, suggesting the possibility of a positive feedback loop leading to further increased viral production within the adipose tissue | 18:27 |
| Wikipedia | de-facto,ok thanks | 18:27 |
| Wikipedia | but actually i have | 18:28 |
| Wikipedia | got that address in Wikipedia before | 18:28 |
| Wikipedia | but maybe my english is not very well(?),i didnt find that data in this source finally | 18:30 |
| nixonix | "knockout of ACE2 or its inactivation in mice after SARS-CoV infection increased acute lung failure severity [72], arguing for a protective effect of ACE2 after its initial permissive action. It is also of note that following SARS-CoV infection, ACE2 expression is down regulated | 18:31 |
| nixonix | in that telomere study they found survivors, i think mild cases too, had ace2 downregulated afterwards | 18:32 |
| Wikipedia | i need“New local confirmed cases”，That is，“New cases per day in addition to foreign input” | 18:32 |
| nixonix | i wonder if that guy was from bhutan. or maybe had relatives there | 18:35 |
| nixonix | offloop would be handy for him, but maybe he keeps coming back to check the cases from the bot (i saw tinwhiskers at philosophy - i think he just got bored to follow the epidemic, as he said in summer 2k) | 18:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): Sunday 12 September 2021 Update: submitted by /u/HippolasCage to r/CoronavirusUK → https://is.gd/pqPdSg | 18:43 |
| nixonix | defacto, where can i find RKI's estimate of vaccinated at 20x lower risk than not vaxed? i might use the link when arguing with antivaxers some day. what kind of dose intervals were used in germany at the time when 70+ yo were vaxed? | 18:44 |
| nixonix | "Despite similar Ct-values, we demonstrate lower probability of infectious virus detection in respiratory samples of vaccinated HCWs with breakthrough infections compared to unvaccinated HCWs with primary SARS-CoV-2 infections | 18:45 |
| nixonix | yeah, less viable virus, more fragments | 18:45 |
| de-facto | nixonix, its a bit hidden inside their weekly thursday reports in German https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/Situationsberichte/Wochenbericht/Wochenbericht_2021-09-09.pdf?__blob=publicationFile | 18:48 |
| de-facto | page 19-20 | 18:49 |
| nixonix | ty. you have a link to the place where those weekly reports can be found? | 18:50 |
| de-facto | "Estimated vaccination effectiveness against other COVID-19-associated endpoints for the period of | 18:50 |
| de-facto | last four weeks (32nd-35th week):" | 18:50 |
| de-facto | "- Protection against hospitalization: approx. 96% (age 18-59 years) or approx. 94% (age ≥60 years)" | 18:50 |
| de-facto | "- Protection against treatment in the intensive care unit: approx. 97% (age 18-59 years) or approx. 94% (age ≥60 years)" | 18:50 |
| de-facto | "- Protection against death: approx. 100% (age 18-59 years) or approx. 91% (age ≥60 years)" | 18:50 |
| de-facto | week 32-35 is mainly Delta | 18:50 |
| de-facto | over 99% Delta | 18:52 |
| nixonix | did they use mostly mrna or AZ for those over 70 or over 60? dose intervals at the time they were vaxed? | 18:52 |
| de-facto | uff hmm | 18:52 |
| de-facto | its at https://impfdashboard.de/ | 18:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: There are 9 countries with ≥ 75% of their total population vaccinated. That's associated with very low or declining fatalities and new cases, and, where available, very low hospitalizations → https://is.gd/GH1RD7 | 18:54 |
| de-facto | also at https://github.com/robert-koch-institut/COVID-19-Impfungen_in_Deutschland | 18:54 |
| nixonix | "We noted higher NAb titers (at 4 weeks post second dose of both regimens, all infection-naïve) in individuals vaccinated using the long interval regimen, with a 2-4 fold increase in titer, depending on the variant tested (Figure 3A), with a correlation across time | 18:55 |
| de-facto | also at https://impfdashboard.de/daten | 18:56 |
| de-facto | but i cant find data on vaccine brand per age group | 18:56 |
| de-facto | only doses given | 18:56 |
| nixonix | "When looking at the delta variant, researchers also noted that, though there were good levels of antibodies after the shorter dosing interval, levels were 2.3-fold higher with the longer dosing interval. | 18:56 |
| nixonix | when was it when germany moved from 3/4 weeks to - was it 6 for mrna? | 18:57 |
| nixonix | “short” 3-5 week interval (median 24 days, IQR 21-26, range 14-34), or a “long” 6-14 week interval (median 70 days, IQR 63-77, range 44-99) | 18:58 |
| nixonix | so that should prob give 2-3 months more time before waning too much, at least against infection but prob vs severe too, if 6-12 weeks is used with pfizer. maybe the same with moderna (which apparently already has more lasting protection due to 100 mcg and 4 weeks standard interval) | 19:00 |
| de-facto | i am not quite sure when they changed to 6 weeks its in one of their STIKO recommendations i would assume https://impfdashboard.de/daten | 19:01 |
| nixonix | might not be the same vs ICU or death, as theres higher chance other components of immunity have bigger role | 19:01 |
| de-facto | i know the early BNT doses (for elderly) were given with 3 weeks (maybe feburary or march) and i received my moderna with 6 weeks in june | 19:01 |
| de-facto | oh i just may have found it https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/Kommissionen/STIKO/Empfehlungen/Vierte_Empfehlung_2021-04-01.html | 19:03 |
| nixonix | .title https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-vaccine-updates-03-04-21/h_430e0dcef9acd81d6c18ea75e1036fb2 march 4 | 19:03 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From edition.cnn.com: Germany will extend interval between vaccine doses "to its maximum" | 19:03 |
| de-facto | "Establishment of the vaccination interval for the mRNA vaccine at 6 weeks" | 19:03 |
| nixonix | so atarting apr 1st? | 19:03 |
| nixonix | a=s | 19:03 |
| de-facto | so i guess pretty much all new appointments that were scheduled after that recommendation was published | 19:03 |
| de-facto | i dont think they would have cancelled appointments that already have been booked | 19:04 |
| nixonix | meaning 60+ had likely all shorter interval? | 19:04 |
| de-facto | yeah | 19:04 |
| de-facto | unfortunately | 19:05 |
| de-facto | but also with AZ | 19:06 |
| de-facto | and some got first AZ second BNT | 19:06 |
| nixonix | deaths not affected. although its possible that part of 60-70 got their 2nd dose with longer interval, prob not 70+. from feb-march to mid-end august would mean on average around 5.75 months (infection moment a bit earlier, 5 months or so) | 19:07 |
| nixonix | pfizer seems to give good protection vs deaths, with 3 week dose interval at least 5 months, and prob a bit longer too. az, hard to say without knowing how much it was used at the time for 70+ yo there | 19:10 |
| nixonix | oh yeah, those thrombosis news were out, so some of them got az+bnt. which may even be better | 19:11 |
| de-facto | yeah it was somewhere around then, in the middle of the campaign of the elderly because they discussed if they can use it for them or the younger | 19:13 |
| nixonix | it was around the same for neut abs i think, if not better. protection vs severe, icu, deaths, anybodys guess since other things play bigger part than circulating neut abs vs them | 19:17 |
| nixonix | az+mrna, that is | 19:17 |
| nixonix | should look at israel's icu and death stats some day, to see how much protection waned against those | 19:19 |
| nixonix | how bout in germany, vaccinated vs unvaccinated and ICU? | 19:20 |
| de-facto | https://imgur.com/a/szQov4V https://i.imgur.com/wtqKNrg.jpeg maximum rate at 17. May 2021 | 19:22 |
| de-facto | .title | 19:23 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From imgur.com: COVID Germany: People vaccinated 1st dose - Album on Imgur | 19:23 |
| de-facto | 0.56 percent of population per day got a 1st dose | 19:23 |
| de-facto | at maximum | 19:24 |
| de-facto | nixonix, i think its in the table in the pdf in German i linked | 19:24 |
| de-facto | Table 4 on page 19 | 19:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: The 2021 Sturgis Rally was a month ago. Perhaps it's a coincidence for the 2 states that are leading the country in rise of hospitalizations over the past 2 weeks. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html → https://is.gd/AjCImH | 19:25 |
| nixonix | Schutz vor Behandlung auf Intensivstation: ca. 97 % (Alter 18-59 Jahre) bzw. ca. 94 % (Alter ≥60 Jahre) | 19:29 |
| nixonix | but it also says, protection vs hospitalization is 94% for >60 yo. those 60-70 represent larger share in hospitalizations than in deaths, part of them prob had longer interval, and later vaccinated anyway than 70+ | 19:37 |
| de-facto | if there was a pdf upload that i could use to feed it to google translate i could try to share the translated table | 19:37 |
| de-facto | but all those pdf upload sites suck | 19:37 |
| nixonix | hard to say for sure, but it looks like a bit slower waning against hospitalization than in israel and in some u.s. study (which had 80% vs hospitalization after around 4.5-5 months from 2nd pfizer dose) | 19:38 |
| nixonix | including all ages | 19:38 |
| de-facto | they are all trash, none of those pdf upload sites are in a working state that allows sharing a pdf | 19:41 |
| nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1436389153533464597 like in this table 80% (moderna's roll-out was slower than pfizer, so prob a bit closer with similar time from the 2nd) | 19:43 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Eric Feigl-Ding (@DrEricDing): "💡BREAKING—CDC study confirms the NIH-Moderna #COVID19 vaccine is more effective against #DeltaVariant hospitalizations than Pfizer-BioNTech or Johnson & Johnson. [...] | 19:43 |
| nixonix | hey, why dont we have studies telling these answers, considering dosing intevals, times from 2nd dose, age groups etc, but instead we have to dig and interpret raw data and try to get the answers on waning rates? | 19:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Cuba first to vaccinate toddlers against Covid-19 → https://is.gd/hb2lNh | 19:46 |
| de-facto | .title https://imgur.com/a/FOmRF8s https://i.imgur.com/qjDEW9D.png src page 19 of https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/Situationsberichte/Wochenbericht/Wochenbericht_2021-09-09.pdf?__blob=publicationFile | 19:50 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From imgur.com: Table 4: Probable vaccination breakthroughs and vaccination quota by age group (data as of September 8, 2021) - Album on Imgur | 19:50 |
| de-facto | nixonix, there is the google translated table | 19:50 |
| nixonix | those calculated VE's below the table there (like what i quoted) | 19:53 |
| nixonix | +were | 19:53 |
| de-facto | yep | 19:54 |
| nixonix | hospitalizations: Schutz vor Hospitalisierung: ca. 96 % (Alter 18-59 Jahre) bzw. ca. 94 % (Alter ≥60 Jahre) deaths: Schutz vor Tod: ca. 100 % (Alter 18-59 Jahre) bzw. ca. 91 % (Alter ≥60 Jahre | 19:55 |
| nixonix | ^weeks 32-35 | 19:55 |
| de-facto | yeah thats what i first translated form that pdf and its for delta time yeah week 32-35 | 19:55 |
| de-facto | over 99% delta | 19:55 |
| nixonix | no confidence intervals... | 19:56 |
| nixonix | it was already 99% at the time? | 19:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @mike_hogan: RT by @EricTopol: Having had a breakthrough case, I found this article more realistic than most. Some key points: lots of breakthrough cases are happening, “mild” illness may not feel so mild, having COVID still means isolating, vaccines still do a great job of preventing the worst outcomes → https://is.gd/wKboE4 | 19:57 |
| nixonix | of their infection, which would be around end of june for deaths, beginning of july for icu, and a bit later for hosp i think | 19:57 |
| nixonix | or a bit earlier even | 19:57 |
| nixonix | i think you got 50% delta around beginning of july, was it. so those would be 50-50 maybe | 19:59 |
| de-facto | hmm yeah it was over 99% in week 32-35 but you are correct one would need to look even earlier | 20:00 |
| nixonix | when did you get 50% delta? | 20:00 |
| de-facto | but in the table its breakthrough week 32-35 portion of delta: 12-17: 96% ; 18-59: 99% and >60: 99% | 20:02 |
| nixonix | there was also sequencing delay, so the point of reaching 50% delta would have been earlier than when found out - and depends on delay, and if other methods like pcr recognizing delta was used | 20:03 |
| de-facto | Delta was ~50% around week 23-24 | 20:04 |
| nixonix | those percentages meaning the actual variant the cases had, or just in population, at the time when they were admitted? | 20:04 |
| de-facto | breakthrough means portion of breakthrough and the table of voc percentage means 10%-20% of samples that were sequenced | 20:06 |
| nixonix | so meaning the variant in actual cases? | 20:07 |
| de-facto | 99% of breakthrough cases were Delta variant, and the 50% takeover for Delta wave is of randomly chosen samples between positive tests (approx every 5th to 10th sample) | 20:09 |
| de-facto | 99% for weeks 32-35 | 20:09 |
| nixonix | ok | 20:10 |
| LjL | well what's the breakthrough Delta compared to the unvaccinated Delta? currently they're both like 100% | 20:10 |
| de-facto | LjL, i would assume ~5% with that given vaccine efficacy | 20:11 |
| LjL | no i mean | 20:12 |
| LjL | how many of the breakthrough cases are Delta, and how many of the non-breakthrough cases are Delta? | 20:12 |
| LjL | now, both are going to be ~100% | 20:12 |
| LjL | but a few weeks/months ago, when Delta made up maybe 50% in unvaccinated, it'd be interesting to know | 20:12 |
| de-facto | e.g. VE = 1 - RR = 1 - ARV / ARU hence ARV = (1 - VE) ARU = (1 - 0.95) ARU | 20:12 |
| de-facto | for week 32-35 and endpoint hospitalization | 20:14 |
| de-facto | hence my claim of ~ 1/20 | 20:14 |
| twomoon | where are these acronyms defined? what is VE/RR/ARV/ARU? | 20:17 |
| twomoon | sorry I should have been writing these down earlier | 20:17 |
| LjL | okay time to make a Brainstorm dictionary | 20:17 |
| LjL | but first de-facto must say what they mean because i never rememeber either | 20:17 |
| LjL | AR is attack rate | 20:18 |
| LjL | V is vaccinated, U is unvaccinated | 20:18 |
| LjL | RR i'm not sure | 20:18 |
| de-facto | yes exactly | 20:18 |
| LjL | VE is vaccine efficacy | 20:18 |
| twomoon | rate of resurgence? | 20:18 |
| de-facto | ARV = breakthrough per vaccinated, ARU = infected per unvaccinated | 20:18 |
| de-facto | RR = risk ratio | 20:18 |
| LjL | ah right, risk ratio | 20:18 |
| de-facto | e.g. RR = ARV / ARU | 20:18 |
| twomoon | these equations frustrate me because they kind of come from a world in which vaccinated people can't have the virus multiply inside their noses | 20:23 |
| de-facto | depends on the defined endpoint of the given efficacy | 20:24 |
| LjL | but these equation don't in any way touch on transmissibility etc, so who cares? | 20:24 |
| twomoon | yeah ok | 20:24 |
| de-facto | e.g. you can define a VE for PCR-test, for symptomatic infection, for hospitalization, for fatal outcome etc | 20:24 |
| LjL | you can, and if you aren't Pfizer, you also do | 20:25 |
| twomoon | lol | 20:25 |
| LjL | (thinking PCR-test) | 20:25 |
| de-facto | the more severe the endpoint the higher the expectation value for VE | 20:25 |
| LjL | did Pfizer ever do the N-protein retrospective evaluation? | 20:25 |
| LjL | my bet is they never will | 20:25 |
| de-facto | not sure i never investigated | 20:26 |
| de-facto | i wonder how long it will take until we are going to sniff our vaccines | 20:27 |
| de-facto | i think some trials with monkeys sniffing AZ showed promising results | 20:28 |
| nixonix | oral vaccines will come sooner or later. that one i linked day or two ago seemed to have a good IgG response too | 20:29 |
| nixonix | so maybe iv once a year, and oral every few months (mucosal dimeric IgA from the latter, vs transmission) | 20:30 |
| de-facto | yeah it would help a lot with preventing breeding mutants | 20:30 |
| de-facto | kill it right away when it contaminates the mucus in the nose thereby preventing bruteforcing | 20:31 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.09.459634v1 why M does seem to make a big difference? | 20:31 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.biorxiv.org: A thermostable oral SARS-CoV-2 vaccine induces mucosal and protective immunity | bioRxiv | 20:31 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/scitranslmed.abh0755 | 20:33 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.science.org: Intranasal ChAdOx1 nCoV-19/AZD1222 vaccination reduces viral shedding after SARS-CoV-2 D614G challenge in preclinical models | 20:33 |
| nixonix | i'd prefer that i linked. adjuvant maybe improves b-cell maturation, and no abs vs the vector. also oral is handier and cheaper | 20:34 |
| twomoon | can someone explain to me the N-protein retrospective thing? | 20:35 |
| de-facto | nucleocapsid protein is only in the virus itself to stabilize its ssRNA, not in the vaccine | 20:35 |
| de-facto | hence testing for antibodies against N-protein reveals exposure to virus (or inactivated vaccine) | 20:36 |
| * twomoon is lost kinda | 20:37 | |
| twomoon | by "inactivated vaccine" do you mean whole-virion vaccine? | 20:39 |
| nixonix | singapore's cases going up fast. better vax coverage than in denmark, and almost all mrna (lately a bit chinese vaxes too, i think because chinese require travellers to take it) | 20:41 |
| de-facto | https://www.nejm.org/na101/home/literatum/publisher/mms/journals/content/nejm/2020/nejm_2020.382.issue-23/nejmcibr2007042/20200529/images/img_xlarge/nejmcibr2007042_f1.jpeg | 20:41 |
| de-facto | twomoon, yes | 20:41 |
| twomoon | but what was ljl trying to say with that earlier? | 20:42 |
| de-facto | graphic from https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMcibr2007042 | 20:42 |
| twomoon | what's the point of looking into the N-protein antibodies or what not | 20:42 |
| de-facto | to determine if antibodies resulted from vaccine or exposure to the virus | 20:43 |
| twomoon | oh does it have to do with separating out people who have been exposed to the virus AS WELL AS gotten the vaccine? | 20:43 |
| de-facto | yes | 20:43 |
| twomoon | oh, so that they don't corrupt the data set? | 20:43 |
| de-facto | to see how many got exposed to the virus in a way that they got a small infection ongoing that results in additional antibodies against N-protein | 20:44 |
| de-facto | because they did not do PCR tests during their trials | 20:44 |
| de-facto | they only tested those that got a symptomatic breakthrough | 20:44 |
| twomoon | ugh those lazy bums | 20:45 |
| de-facto | well hmm i guess laziness was not their reason :P | 20:45 |
| nixonix | they could have published information on VE vs cases, hospitalizations, icu, deaths on those in trials afterwards too, to see the waning rate. have they? | 20:47 |
| twomoon | but i still don't see what ljl is trying to say | 20:49 |
| twomoon | damnit | 20:49 |
| twomoon | i guess he is way too smart for me these days | 20:49 |
| LjL | what was i trying to say? | 20:49 |
| LjL | N-protein? | 20:50 |
| twomoon | I have no idea. I am referring to the N-protein "retrospective" | 20:50 |
| LjL | you can do an N-protein antibody assay to see if someone who's vaccinated was also infected with COVID | 20:50 |
| LjL | vaccination only exposes the body to the S-protein | 20:50 |
| LjL | so you have antibodies to that | 20:50 |
| twomoon | I get that, but what's the point of doing that? | 20:50 |
| LjL | but the virus has other protein | 20:50 |
| LjL | knowing if someone got infected! | 20:50 |
| twomoon | right, but what's the point of THAT | 20:51 |
| LjL | ... | 20:51 |
| LjL | knowing what the efficacy against infection is? | 20:51 |
| LjL | as opposed to just against symptomatic disease? | 20:51 |
| LjL | and the point of THAT is, ultimately, transmissibility | 20:51 |
| twomoon | is it so we can find out if those people are even more immune? | 20:51 |
| LjL | no | 20:51 |
| LjL | it's so we can find if they still get infected despite the vaccine | 20:51 |
| LjL | even if they have no symptoms | 20:51 |
| twomoon | ok | 20:52 |
| LjL | most of the vaccine studies (except AZ's one) didn't include periodic PCRs | 20:52 |
| de-facto | so reversing all that: if such a survey would show great results why would they hesitate to publish? | 20:52 |
| LjL | so they don't *know* if people got infected, they only know about people who reported symptoms, who were then PCR'd | 20:52 |
| LjL | de-facto, because it's moot with Delta anyway | 20:52 |
| LjL | even if the results were great with Alpha or earlier, they aren't anymore | 20:53 |
| de-facto | i am pretty sure it would show that VE is very low against a tiny infection that is enough to induce AB against N-protein | 20:53 |
| kuolex | i got 2 of sinovac and 1 of pfizer. I feel more stupid than before O_o | 20:53 |
| de-facto | yet the important part (for the individual) is the protection against severe progression and hospitalization | 20:55 |
| de-facto | and that is what the RKI reports address with their endpoints | 20:56 |
| nixonix | how long ago the last dose? i got some mild after effects from the 2nd dose that lasted 2.5 weeks. which didnt matter much, but was interesting. luckily it was just immune reaction to vaccine, not sars | 20:56 |
| de-facto | kuolex, you got side effects? | 20:57 |
| kuolex | none that I could perceive, really. | 20:59 |
| twomoon | why is it "moot with Delta anyways"? | 20:59 |
| LjL | err but you said they lasted 2.5 weeks? | 20:59 |
| LjL | even if they're mild we're usually interested to know | 20:59 |
| nixonix | i said that | 21:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: The US had a chance to lead the world in vaccination.At the rate it's going, the world will eventually surpass the US. → https://is.gd/uHyydc | 21:00 |
| de-facto | i got a headache few weeks after Moderna, few days of Ibuprofen helped | 21:00 |
| LjL | nixonix, oh right sorry | 21:00 |
| LjL | you have the same nick color as kuolex :P | 21:00 |
| LjL | and a final x! | 21:01 |
| nixonix | blue is mine | 21:01 |
| LjL | yes | 21:01 |
| de-facto | lol LjL widen the namespace | 21:01 |
| LjL | de-facto is blue-green | 21:01 |
| LjL | i am red | 21:01 |
| LjL | twomoon is bright green | 21:01 |
| de-facto | you are turquoise here | 21:02 |
| nixonix | you guys have too much time | 21:02 |
| de-facto | its hexchat color scheme, somehow function of the nickname | 21:02 |
| twomoon | i'm worried i'm getting dumber | 21:03 |
| kuolex | im avoiding responabilities so hard i just setup IRC lol | 21:03 |
| de-facto | how is it going in Uruguay, cases seem to be pretty low right now | 21:05 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/09/12/1036356773/i-got-a-mild-breakthrough-case-heres-what-i-wish-id-known | 21:06 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.npr.org: NPR Cookie Consent and Choices | 21:06 |
| kuolex | no deaths for more than a week I think, going alright | 21:07 |
| de-facto | oh wow very nice | 21:08 |
| de-facto | got restrictions as in wearing masks and social distancing? | 21:09 |
| de-facto | very nice Uruguay got 72.81% fully vaccinated + 4.85% party vaccinated | 21:13 |
| de-facto | i wish we also were at those levels here | 21:13 |
| de-facto | https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations | 21:13 |
| kuolex | masks mandatory in most shops. a bit of social distancing but people are already much more calm | 21:14 |
| de-facto | seems you are doing very well there | 21:16 |
| de-facto | yeah here in Germany we also have masks in indoor shops, but we are not so far with vaccinations and also we got a 4th wave with Delta unfortunately | 21:18 |
| de-facto | although i may have slowed down | 21:18 |
| nixonix | do they vax under 12 yo in portugal already? 87% first dose | 21:18 |
| de-facto | kuolex, do you know if there is data available for Uruguay showing the variants currently in circulation? | 21:19 |
| de-facto | i am curious if you also got Delta variant there already | 21:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Return of the old days: Denmark hosts stadium concert for 50,000 without Covid curbs → https://is.gd/zpRhLS | 21:20 |
| de-facto | is arrival of Delta the reason to boost two doses of Sinovac with one dose of BNT? | 21:21 |
| nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1437098948993302529 word. and in every country, and publish the damn results, all the data | 21:21 |
| kuolex | yes. Delta, alpha, Lambda. all present but inconsequential | 21:21 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "There are likely less than 10,000 patients in US hospitals now who were fully vaccinated but sick with covid. Is it really too much to ask what vaccine they received, when [...] | 21:21 |
| de-facto | kuolex, looks like pretty well managed if they offer boosters already to prevent breakthrough cases | 21:22 |
| kuolex | the extra dose of BNT was decided prior to Detla I think. | 21:22 |
| de-facto | can you say anything about Lambda (or Mu) vs Delta? e.g. do they cause more breakthrough cases or such? | 21:23 |
| de-facto | i am curious because both should be more evasive, e.g. similar to Beta | 21:24 |
| nixonix | uruguay kept the cases very low for a long time. tight border restrictions? | 21:24 |
| de-facto | idk how they do it but it looks pretty good from the data i have seen so far | 21:25 |
| kuolex | dont know much about Lambda as it relates to delta. numbers are under control though. | 21:25 |
| kuolex | honeslty idk how its being done either. lots of careless people and lots of public transport here | 21:26 |
| nixonix | they have the best healthcare and are on top of pretty much every ranking list in latin america (chile and argentina usually 2nd and 3rd. maybe mexico in healtcare, though) | 21:27 |
| kuolex | if this is among the best even if compared to the rest of Latin-America then I feel for the others.. :) | 21:28 |
| nixonix | check some ranking lists, and you'll feel better | 21:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from Eric Topol: @EricTopol: People are still writing that Israel (as a first mover) has one of the highest vaccination rates in the world.No, it ranks 24th. It is behind the leaders by 20 per cent points. And it's one of the reasons its Delta wave has been so troubling. → https://is.gd/rdTuZK | 21:31 |
| nixonix | they have 27% under 15 yo, and only recently started to vax 12-15 yo (soon off-label 5-11 says irene tosetti). but shows that kids must be counted in coverage too, if some level of herd immunity is tried | 21:34 |
| nixonix | israel | 21:34 |
| nixonix | they had incredibly fast 3rd dose campaign. which countries have started it already for all in some age groups? maybe there are owid stats already... | 21:37 |
| twomoon | do you believe that article about the 12-15 cohort actually having higher rate of myocarditis after vaccination than being hospitalized without the vaccine? | 21:37 |
| twomoon | that sounded hokey to me | 21:38 |
| de-facto | it depends on incidence, e.g. how many will get infected | 21:38 |
| nixonix | 6x more or so from infection than mrna vax, according to one study - but was it 12-17 or something | 21:39 |
| nixonix | articles can say anything. if there's no evidence, its nothing | 21:40 |
| de-facto | per 1000 kids, if 900 will get vaccinated how many will have myocarditis? surely more of those 1000 kids will end in hospital if 500 will get infected compared to 250 getting infected, so that has to be taken into account for such comparisons, the expected attack rate | 21:41 |
| de-facto | (numbers arbitrary just for demonstration) | 21:41 |
| twomoon | oh yeah, so it depends on incidence | 21:42 |
| de-facto | yep | 21:42 |
| twomoon | I didn't think about that. sorry!! | 21:42 |
| nixonix | and vax induced myocardites are 95% mild, the rest usually not too severe afaik. and not known deaths (the one in greece or where was it, prob isnt from vaccine, since it was middle-aged woman who have no myocarditides above background noise from mrna vax) | 21:43 |
| nixonix | it was in new zealand | 21:44 |
| nixonix | 6x was young males, whatever the age group was. less for young females | 21:45 |
| specing | de-facto: ~25/1e6 have *carditis in 18-25 year old age group IIRC | 21:46 |
| specing | so many more probably | 21:46 |
| specing | 30-50? | 21:46 |
| specing | I wonder if sinopharm / sinovac can give you GBS/thrombosis | 21:47 |
| de-facto | i dont know the exact numbers, but it was mainly young males for 2nd shot | 21:47 |
| specing | I would say that vaccines are still unavailable, even if the western world | 21:47 |
| specing | e.g. only 4/20 globally available vaccines are available in the EU | 21:47 |
| specing | (unless you are in hungary, where its 6/20 or so?) | 21:47 |
| specing | s/if/in/ | 21:48 |
| nixonix | For the 12-15 and 16-19 male age groups, the adjusted rates per million were 601 (257 - 1,406) and 561 (240 - 1,313) | 21:48 |
| specing | I don't understand what's the hold up. If COVID is really this dangerous then I'd imagine governments to buy every vaccine under the sun | 21:48 |
| nixonix | "Young males infected with the virus are up 6 times more likely to develop myocarditis as those who have received the vaccine." | 21:48 |
| specing | and if people are scared of mrna/dna/whatever then they could import sinovac/sinopharm and have that sorted too | 21:49 |
| nixonix | (but more severe with virus infection - among the other harms ofc) | 21:49 |
| specing | I'm seriously disappointed at government response | 21:49 |
| de-facto | we dont have enough demand right now in Germany | 21:49 |
| de-facto | vaccines are available | 21:49 |
| specing | nah they aren't | 21:49 |
| specing | only 4 are available and none of those are traditional vaccines | 21:50 |
| de-facto | so this time its not the governments fault, people are not taking their offers | 21:50 |
| specing | it is the gov fault | 21:50 |
| de-facto | ah you mean type of vaccine platforms | 21:50 |
| de-facto | now i get it | 21:50 |
| de-facto | Sinovac did not go for approval with EMA i guess | 21:50 |
| specing | So what | 21:51 |
| specing | I'm saying that if COVID is really such a public health emergency, governments would not wait for EMA approval | 21:51 |
| twomoon | i'm really disappointed the 'western world' is focusing on boosters rather than focusing on getting poorer countries their first dose | 21:51 |
| nixonix | those other vaxes suck, compared to these approved. novavax, they should be helped with production | 21:51 |
| de-facto | https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/overview/public-health-threats/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/treatments-vaccines/covid-19-vaccines | 21:51 |
| specing | nixonix: so what if they suck. They are better than no vaccination | 21:52 |
| twomoon | specing, maybe that's a sign it isn't really a major emergency?? | 21:52 |
| de-facto | twomoon, very important point | 21:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): China_Flu: Revealed: How scientists who dismissed Wuhan lab theory are linked to Chinese researchers | Cover-up alleged over Lancet letter that effectively shut down scientific debate into whether coronavirus was manipulated or leaked from lab → https://is.gd/J5kjiI | 21:52 |
| specing | twomoon: where I am it is certainly not. In Serbia and Hungary, the latter of which ignored EMA it is | 21:52 |
| specing | my government keeps putting more restrictions on unvaccinated instead of importing all vaccines and making vaccination mandatory | 21:53 |
| specing | laws keep changing on a weeekly basis | 21:53 |
| specing | it's madness | 21:53 |
| de-facto | which country? | 21:53 |
| specing | Slovenia | 21:53 |
| nixonix | i see no reason to approve inferior vaccines when theres enough better ones available. despite that some small group claims they were "safer" or whatever, without even reliable information on their safety available | 21:54 |
| specing | nixonix: I see a reason: people are afraid of new tech | 21:54 |
| de-facto | ok so also EMA | 21:54 |
| specing | nixonix: if you wanted to pick between having unvaccinated people and people vaccinated with an inferior vaccine, which would you pick? | 21:55 |
| nixonix | look at eastern european countries who have sputnik and chinavaxes, their vaccination rates are bad | 21:55 |
| de-facto | pretty much same in Germany, they change the rules on weekly basis, even per federal state | 21:55 |
| specing | nixonix: their (and also our) vac rates are bad because of low trust in government | 21:55 |
| nixonix | many of them have both western and sputnik/chinese, and still low rates | 21:55 |
| specing | nixonix: vaccines have nothing to do with this | 21:55 |
| twomoon | to me it's obvious that the virus is no longer seen as a major emergency in 'western countries' that have already gotten their vaccination rate above 50% | 21:55 |
| specing | nixonix: we only have the EU approved ones and vaccination is 50% | 21:56 |
| twomoon | but of course, i could be wrong | 21:56 |
| de-facto | specing, the thing is trust in the approval also is very important, so quality and benefit over risk has to be investigated in a transparent way with the approvals | 21:56 |
| nixonix | slovenia was it. because they dont trust government? | 21:56 |
| de-facto | what good is having all the vaccines if people dont trust in them being of good benefit over the risk they may involve? | 21:57 |
| twomoon | lol yeah good point de-facto | 21:57 |
| specing | de-facto: you speak as if each government doesen't have a health regulator | 21:57 |
| specing | they could also say those vaccines are inferior | 21:57 |
| specing | but the point is to make them *available* | 21:57 |
| de-facto | yeah of course, but also test them properly and in a transparent way | 21:58 |
| de-facto | but yeah more diversity is always a good thing | 21:59 |
| twomoon | we should definitely have the choice between a mRNA vax and a whole-virion vax | 22:00 |
| nixonix | some finn in hungary said, people there dont vax because men think the infection's dangers are exaggerated, and women because they drink silver water and stuff | 22:00 |
| de-facto | also heterologous prime-boost-update schemes may be beneficial, such as AZ+BNT, probably also Sinovac+BNT etc | 22:01 |
| de-facto | yet should be based on stats accumulated | 22:01 |
| de-facto | nixonix, lol full of cliche :P | 22:02 |
| twomoon | nano silver has shown many beneficial effects | 22:02 |
| de-facto | ooff i would not want to take such things | 22:02 |
| twomoon | many products use it topically | 22:02 |
| twomoon | but i don't know about ingesting it | 22:03 |
| de-facto | there also were masks containing nano silver, they were forbidden because they potentially could be harmful | 22:03 |
| twomoon | I don't think you want to ingest silver or copper nano particles | 22:03 |
| de-facto | what if you kill all your macrophages that try to digest such particlces or such? | 22:04 |
| de-facto | idk i would not want to try that | 22:04 |
| twomoon | government agents should go door to door trying to discourage this in Hungary | 22:05 |
| twomoon | it is not a large country so this should be easy | 22:05 |
| nixonix | he used drinking silver water as an example, meaning believing that type of stuff, not necessarily exactly silver water (could be homeopathy, healing crystals, and whatever, with no scientific evidence) | 22:07 |
| de-facto | to be fair the number of their recorded cases (and deaths) is very low currently https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/hungary/ | 22:08 |
| nixonix | a few weeks ago, cases were down in visegrad countries and couple other like romania and ukraine i think, and going up in baltia and balkan. i wondered the reason, maybe level of herd immunity in some age-groups etc affecting in part of eastern europe mor | 22:10 |
| twomoon | I've seen a rise in homeopathic medicine even as our understanding of biology has been improving rapidly in recent years | 22:11 |
| twomoon | it doesn't quite make sense to me | 22:11 |
| de-facto | for some reason incidence is very low currently in Poland, Czech Rep, Slovakia and Hungary | 22:11 |
| de-facto | http://metrics.covid19-analysis.org/ | 22:11 |
| nixonix | check the deaths too, in case there are lots of hidden cases (not necessarily reliable registered, depending on country, but anyways) | 22:13 |
| nixonix | reliably | 22:13 |
| de-facto | yeah i only can state about the numbers they deliver, but deaths also a very low | 22:14 |
| nixonix | prob true since its all the visegrad and couple others nearby. waves at different time maybe, and so the remains of herd immunity, in different areas in eastern europe (differencies in vax rate too) | 22:16 |
| nixonix | bulgaria and romania lowest, serbia very low too | 22:16 |
| nixonix | those countries with vax passports etc demanded, have usually kept 1st doses increasing, like france and italy | 22:17 |
| de-facto | bulgaria is not so low | 22:17 |
| nixonix | people need some whip, so give them | 22:17 |
| twomoon | that's bizarre | 22:17 |
| nixonix | in vaxes? wasnt it at the very bottom, if i recall, in europe | 22:17 |
| de-facto | honestly i suspect some of the east eu countries just dont test so much | 22:19 |
| nixonix | bulgaria 35/100, germany 124. vax doses | 22:19 |
| de-facto | https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed | 22:20 |
| de-facto | yeah and Bulgaria daily new deaths 8.8/1M and Germany 0.36/1M | 22:21 |
| de-facto | thats almost 25-fold | 22:22 |
| nixonix | you could check positive test rates, and doses per capita, but some countries might count also rapid tests, who knows | 22:22 |
| nixonix | also theres difference if lots of the tests are targeted well, after tracing, or just too randomly made | 22:23 |
| de-facto | yes of course | 22:24 |
| de-facto | e.g. if more tests are confirmation of positive rapid antigen tests for example | 22:24 |
| de-facto | that will introduce bias | 22:25 |
| nixonix | it looked to me, that many eastern european countries reported deaths very diligently compared to cases, at least the last fall. maybe case reporting was in hands of govt, but hc officials were more independent, and didnt like to hide the severity | 22:25 |
| nixonix | so when comparing the curves in offloop, often deaths were very high in eastern europe, compared to cases | 22:26 |
| nixonix | imagine you were in bulgaria, vax popularity 25% of that in western europe. would that make you scream like a banshee | 22:28 |
| nixonix | well i guess they have better protection from previous infections... | 22:29 |
| twomoon | haha | 22:30 |
| nixonix | how long that lasts vs delta. for infections, severe, deaths. maybe more information soon | 22:30 |
| twomoon | surprising that vax popularity is so low | 22:30 |
| nixonix | bulgaria is far behind romania that i think is 2nd lowest, and even serbia lot higher than romania. 1st doses stalling almost everywhere in europe currently i think, exp those with vax passports needed in bars etc | 22:32 |
| nixonix | maybe some increase among 12-15 yo still | 22:32 |
| de-facto | at my place they are going to ignore incidence and look at hospitalizations instead | 22:33 |
| nixonix | 20-30 yo vax rate is a problem here too, way more than 18-20, i guess because those often live with their parents still, who give them the whip they need | 22:33 |
| de-facto | if above a certain threshold they will enable restrictions for non-vaccinated and non-recovered, regardless of tests | 22:34 |
| nixonix | our hc officials want that too, and most media who stopped publishing daily cases in common agreenment this week. they want to infect kids before they get vaccines | 22:34 |
| de-facto | so pretty much protecting the non-immunized from infection | 22:34 |
| de-facto | while posing no restrictions on immunized | 22:35 |
| de-facto | not sure how that will work out, since not testing immunized will allow for a "stealth wave" among them | 22:35 |
| de-facto | imho they should ramp up testing if 1 in 10 tests came back positive | 22:36 |
| de-facto | much more testing, also among the immunized to monitor breakthrough cases | 22:36 |
| nixonix | .title https://twitter.com/drajm/status/1429572147513462788 | 22:36 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From twitter.com: Dr Miller - vax kids asap (@drajm): "It’s OK to infect ALL kids w Delta because around a. 1/5000 may die b. 1/100 go to hospital *corrected c. 4/10 have still have symptoms 4 mths on d. 7% have long [...] | 22:36 |
| de-facto | kids are going to take the disadvantage again, they are going to be contaminated in schools without vaccine protection | 22:37 |
| nixonix | and who knows about permanent organ damages, will take lots of years to find out the whole scope. prob lower for kids, but how common, we dont know | 22:38 |
| nixonix | and usually lower circulating ab titers from infection, if any (prob some mucosal IgA anyway, but that wanes fastest), so more frequent reinfections | 22:39 |
| nixonix | how about depleting t-cell reserves, and naive b-cell repertoire - towards how it is with old people | 22:40 |
| nixonix | and when its just couple of months before 5-12 yo vaccinations would start in many countries. unnecessary damage caused. i wonder what are the motives, maybe they differ between hc officials | 22:42 |
| twomoon | but do you think kids should be able to make their own vaccine decisions? | 22:48 |
| LjL | "But the policy u-turn comes after data from Public Health England released Monday suggested that a single dose of the AstraZeneca vaccine is highly effective against severe infection and hospitalization among elderly populations." ← is it? | 22:51 |
| LjL | i think 18 is a bit of a silly cutoff these days, there's been talk here to let 16 year olds vote, i think it happens elsewhere | 22:51 |
| nixonix | when we had vaccinations in school, we just went and got vaccinated. there was no need for questionaries, are you sure you want that, have you read about the risks etc | 22:51 |
| nixonix | sure if somebody would have said "no, i dont want", i dont think they would have used force... | 22:52 |
| nixonix | we had couple of weeks period of school vaccinations for 12-15 yo. some regions got 70% coverage, but some regions on our flatlands populated by hillbillies got around 50% | 22:58 |
| twomoon | did kids get to opt out? | 23:01 |
| nixonix | everything is volutary here. used to be back in the days too, but everybody still got vaccinated (exemptions maybe some very rare cases) | 23:11 |
| nixonix | i have no idea why they didnt this time. part of reasons probably some no-vaxer parents, then media touting the pandemic is over and soon the rest of few restrictions removed, and some of them prob reading antivaxer stuff or hearing from their buddies | 23:13 |
| nixonix | i think most responsibility is media not really telling the common people, that its time to get kids vaccinated, this is serious shit. and our hc officials not doing the same | 23:16 |
| twomoon | why they didn't what ? | 23:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Covid entry pass Netherlands 25 sep → https://is.gd/AJWZrU | 23:27 |
| pwr22 | The problem with all this speculation about ACE2 in here is that it's so much speculation that it's really just a thought experiment | 23:35 |
| pwr22 | Which is fine but I would like to see actual data and truly tested hypotheses | 23:35 |
| pwr22 | And I've got to assume it's very difficult to do that well | 23:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Global Covid cases exceed 224 million → https://is.gd/DnOoc9 | 23:37 |
| ublx | which hypothesis would you like to see tested? | 23:50 |
| LjL | wut, no one has been talking about ACE2 now | 23:51 |
| nixonix | what are you guys talking about ace2? | 23:53 |
| ublx | maybe he's been scrolled up for a couple of days | 23:53 |
| nixonix | yeah, i know and was joking. i mentioned his nick when we discussed it yesterday i think, because he was interested about it another day | 23:54 |
| nixonix | pwr22 watch that video on rona and RAAS/RAS that ublx linked to me around 1.5 years ago: | 23:56 |
| nixonix | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22Bn8jsGI54 | 23:56 |
| Brainstorm | nixonix: From www.youtube.com: Coronavirus Pandemic Update 61: Blood Clots & Strokes in COVID-19; ACE-2 Receptor; Oxidative Stress - YouTube | 23:56 |
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