| Brainstorm | New from NPR: Late-night hosts Jimmy Fallon and Seth Meyers test positive for COVID-19: The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon and Late Night With Seth Meyers are both taped at New York City's 30 Rockefeller Plaza. Meyers' show has been canceled for the rest of this week. → https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2022/01/04/1070349245/jimmy-fallon-seth-meyers-covid | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| lastshell | USA got more than 1 million covid cases in one day (reported cases) | 00:04 |
| lastshell | I assume the real number is much higher | 00:04 |
| Tuvix | lastshell: Despite time.com putting that number out there, the CDC doesn't have that, and they also no longer do smoothing across cases that show up after 1 or more non-reporting day: https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailycases | 00:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Coronavirus hospitalizations across Florida jump by 1,200 as daily cases continue to surge → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rw75z1/coronavirus_hospitalizations_across_florida_jump/ | 00:11 |
| Tuvix | I also use the JHU charts which must be doing some smoothing becuase while the trend is similar in their daily video's chart: https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/covid-19-daily-video . I think the JHU reporting cutoff for cases is a bit differnet too. | 00:11 |
| Tuvix | Oh, nevermind, JHU's daily video is a 7-day average, and as of their update today that's now 480k. | 00:11 |
| Tuvix | What has me concerned is the now-matching sharp rise in *new* hospital admissions that has just spiked past the peak of the summer delta wave for per-day intakes. | 00:13 |
| Tuvix | Another day or several of this continued rise in hospital admission rates and we'll approach or exceed last winter's figures as well. | 00:14 |
| Arsanerit | build more hospitals, hire more doctors and nurses | 00:15 |
| Arsanerit | what happened to "raise the line"? | 00:15 |
| Tuvix | Trouble is that cost has to go somewhere, and the way it works in the US is that cost gets pushed to insurance premiums and more patient-costs. Even folks with employer-provided insurance would have to see rates go up against the company's bottom line, which means less wages for staff or raising costs on goods & services. | 00:16 |
| Arsanerit | cheaper than lockdowns? | 00:17 |
| Tuvix | Funneling more money into reactive responses should really be a last resort, but public health messaging and preventative care isn't really prioritized like it should be here. | 00:17 |
| Arsanerit | what's cheaper, lockdowns or raising the line? | 00:17 |
| Tuvix | Doing nothing is cheaper, at least until sectors of the economy fall apart due to more disease spread; hospitals are basically already in crisis mode in hard-hit areas, but it's easy to drive by one and not really be aware of that. | 00:18 |
| Arsanerit | I suppose letting the old and the weak die is cheaper. | 00:19 |
| Tuvix | Not just the old/weak, but they're hit hard too. | 00:20 |
| Arsanerit | well, if those are filtered out then hospital capacity might be just enough for the rest? | 00:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Navy blocked from acting against 35 COVID vaccine refusers → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rw7dg1/navy_blocked_from_acting_against_35_covid_vaccine/ | 00:21 |
| Tuvix | Depends on how bad the hospital rates get for the lower agegroups, but that's also not viable from a legal/ethical standpoint, so it's all theoretical anyway. | 00:21 |
| Tuvix | Really we should have had a stronger incremental approach to prevent the huge gap in vaccinations. That's not going to solve the crisis alone, but that's the overwhelming majority of the hospital beds used by covid patients. | 00:22 |
| Tuvix | Demographics are different than parts of the EU that have had more broad citizen support for vaccination requirements for things like travel or live-events (dining, clubs, etc) | 00:23 |
| Arsanerit | wouldn't raising the line be the most ethical? | 00:24 |
| Arsanerit | clubs are closed here | 00:24 |
| Tuvix | There's no political will to say double hospital capacity. | 00:24 |
| Tuvix | Bars too? | 00:24 |
| Tuvix | I could go to at least 4 bars in under a 20 minute walk of me and drink as long as I wanted tonight. No vaccination? No problem… | 00:26 |
| Arsanerit | I think bars are open for people who are vaccinated and present a negative PCR test, which amounts to the same as closing them. | 00:26 |
| Arsanerit | or maybe the negative PCR test thingy only applies to hotspots | 00:26 |
| Arsanerit | and then sometimes boostered people are exempt from presenting a negative test, sometimes they aren't | 00:26 |
| Arsanerit | the rules are a mess | 00:26 |
| Arsanerit | I don't pay attention to the details. I don't go to bars. | 00:27 |
| Arsanerit | I just notice they are quite complicated. | 00:27 |
| Arsanerit | Most stores apart from the "essential" ones (which includes bookstores and florists...) are only for vaccinated (and recovered) people | 00:27 |
| Tuvix | Yea, and it was a minor mess here depending on which US state you were in, or even which local county jurisdiction, but the problem was the lower you went down the administration levels, the less enforcement there was. | 00:27 |
| sweetsymphony | What country is that Arsanerit | 00:28 |
| Arsanerit | Germany | 00:28 |
| Tuvix | My neighboring state kept bars & in-person dining closed longer, and some noticed border-cities would get surges of people to drink where it was "allowed" | 00:28 |
| Arsanerit | In Germany the general rules depend on the state. | 00:28 |
| Arsanerit | And in my state it depends per Kreis (county) whether the 7-day incidence is below or above 350 / 100k·week | 00:29 |
| Tuvix | That's not great if testing is at capacity though, since one really needs accurate information for those rules to work. | 00:29 |
| Tuvix | But, politicians sometimes have to do something, if it's not not an ideal solution. | 00:30 |
| Arsanerit | From what I've heard, there are no queues at testing centres | 00:30 |
| Arsanerit | my unvaccinated colleague gets tested daily (otherwise no entry to workplace) and he says he doesn't need to wait | 00:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): The tally for today is incomplete, but there are already over 112,000 Covid hospitalizations and more than 750,000 new casesnewsnodes.com/us pic.twitter.com/IRs8gb1Gaj → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1478507661318496257 | 00:30 |
| Tuvix | Ah, that's good, especially if there are work requriements. | 00:30 |
| Arsanerit | workplace is vaccinated or recovered or negative test | 00:30 |
| Tuvix | I tried hard to get a volunteer sports club to at least test the cases we KNEW were in close-proximity to one of our staff that tested positive. The owner wouldn't even ask staff in that position to get tested. | 00:31 |
| Arsanerit | except for home office or people working alone | 00:31 |
| Tuvix | The owner's response was "we can't as them to [get tested]" :\ | 00:31 |
| Arsanerit | I don't know the situation with sports clubs in Germany at the moment. | 00:31 |
| Arsanerit | Indeed the owner can't ask them to get tested, but the owner can refuse entry if they don't. | 00:31 |
| Arsanerit | Well, ask them they can always do. | 00:32 |
| Arsanerit | The owner can't force them though. | 00:32 |
| Tuvix | Well, we could just have a policy that required it for at least known-close contacts, but it's only a "recommendation" to do so. | 00:32 |
| Arsanerit | It should probably be required for all. | 00:32 |
| Tuvix | Oh sure, but she's afraid the all-volunteer staff will just refuse to show up. So she has no rules. | 00:32 |
| Arsanerit | indoor sports here are only for vaccinated people | 00:33 |
| Arsanerit | outdoor sports has no restrictions | 00:33 |
| Tuvix | Back in summer that positive case was around a pediatric care nurse who we exposed (no idea if she got infected, it's not like she had to tell us as our customer) | 00:33 |
| Tuvix | This is a mostly-indoor venue, with no external airflow (forced-air heating that sources from inside the building.) Plus the ride out is 25 minutes with 5 people in about the size of a medium closet. | 00:34 |
| Tuvix | With omicron I'd say it's a near certainty that if you're in the vehicle with a contagious case, you'll be infected. | 00:34 |
| Arsanerit | in hotspots, indoor sport requires vaccination + test or vaccination + booster, outdoor sport vaccination | 00:34 |
| Arsanerit | Even if everybody wears FFP2 masks correctly? | 00:34 |
| Tuvix | You think they're willing to wear masks? :( | 00:34 |
| Arsanerit | No, I think they're required to. | 00:35 |
| Tuvix | Oh, there, yes. | 00:35 |
| sweetsymphony | In Australia they don't even talk about ventilation unfortunately | 00:35 |
| Tuvix | Here it's a "recommendation" by the most local level of government only. I guess the CDC would recommend against that activity as unvaccinated too, but there again, there are no rules to stop it. | 00:36 |
| Arsanerit | The schools here tend to have their windows wide open throughout the day, even in winter. All the kids wear masks except when they're eating or drinking. They're tested 2-3 times a week, except in hotspots where they're tested daily. | 00:36 |
| Tuvix | Yup, that sounds like a more balanced approach. Better than keeping them remote/virtual for yet another year. | 00:36 |
| sweetsymphony | Little to talk on Hepa filters, air quality. | 00:36 |
| Tuvix | Meanwhile, in Texas in the US, they passed a law banning mask requirements in schools. | 00:36 |
| Arsanerit | :-/ | 00:37 |
| Tuvix | It'd be swell of politicians made regulatory decisions based in science, but there's a long history of doing what's politically convenient and not actually going to help. | 00:37 |
| Arsanerit | Here they've been very slow to order filters for all schools. | 00:37 |
| Arsanerit | And in some of the worst hotspots they're doing distance education again. | 00:38 |
| Arsanerit | now with all of that there is still a bad situation here | 00:38 |
| Arsanerit | France now bans eating on trains because you can't keep your mask on when you eat. | 00:38 |
| Tuvix | Are hospitals there under the same kind of at or past crisis levels of care hotspots in the US are? | 00:38 |
| Arsanerit | I don't know how it is in the US, but there is a temporary rule in which the government pays hospitals for keeping some beds empty. | 00:39 |
| Arsanerit | From what I've read, Germany has an unusually large number of small hospitals, compared to other European countries. | 00:39 |
| Arsanerit | They have plenty of beds, but not enough staff. | 00:39 |
| Tuvix | Interesting, so do the put off optional surgery and such to do that? | 00:39 |
| Arsanerit | And 20% of staff have left since the pandemic started. Overworked. | 00:40 |
| Arsanerit | Yes, I think they've been postponing things that can be postponed. | 00:40 |
| Tuvix | That's a big thing that's been happening in the US where if you don't critically need life-saving surgery, they'll push it back to leave staffing and ICU beds. | 00:40 |
| Arsanerit | They've also flown patients to other parts of the country last month. | 00:40 |
| Arsanerit | The Omicron peak hasn't fully hit here yet, that was still Delta. | 00:40 |
| Arsanerit | I sometimes read a bit about the political approach in the US and it's bewildering. | 00:41 |
| Tuvix | Mid-december a nearby major metro area put this out in the local paper as a plea to get people to do what they could to reduce the virus impact to healthcare: https://mhealthfairview.org/-/media/3C977E375ADA4D3B9B8D7C6AF3C817B1.ashx | 00:41 |
| Arsanerit | I need to go to bed | 00:41 |
| Arsanerit | We'll see what 2022 brings. | 00:41 |
| Arsanerit | I'm glad I'm not a politician. | 00:42 |
| Tuvix | Yea, quite late over there; thanks for the chat, and hope things start to turn around. | 00:42 |
| Arsanerit | This month German parliament will decide about mandatory vaccinations for all eligible adults. | 00:42 |
| Arsanerit | We have opponents to the measures, but none of them are in power except very locally. | 00:42 |
| Arsanerit | A teacher hit the news and finally got fired when she had been recorded saying she was teaching without any masks (she had also been recorded questioning if the holocaust had happened) | 00:43 |
| Tuvix | Oof. | 00:44 |
| Arsanerit | There's a pretty broad consensus here, despite the opponents being quite loud on the streets; they have support only from the fringe in parliament, and a few individual politicians here and there. | 00:44 |
| Arsanerit | (she did not literally get fired, but something close to it; I'm not German myself and don't understand the German civil servant system, which also covers teachers, in which civil servants cannot get fired unless they're convicted to a year or more in jail) | 00:45 |
| Arsanerit | I don't know if mandatory vaccinations will make things uglier or less ugly. | 00:45 |
| Tuvix | That's the big difference; there's continued division here, but with many in power who continue the misinformation and fight against measures that could matter, like masks and encouraging vaccination. | 00:45 |
| Arsanerit | In The Netherlands, there are communities with peer pressure /against/ vaccination. In some christian conservative villages, the vaccination van got hardly any visiters on the central square but lots of people when located in a discreet location. | 00:46 |
| Arsanerit | Yes; we do have discussions about what restrictions to freedom are justified considering how serious the situation is or can be, and such discussions are valid. But denialism is restricted to fringes and not in the mainstream. | 00:47 |
| Tuvix | When I drove to get boosted last month, I passed an advertising sign right before the highway that read "Only 💉 by choice. Your choice matters. Your life matters." (anti-vax sign, paid for by some group that does this kind of thing nationally) | 00:47 |
| Tuvix | The irony of course being that if your life mattered, the science and data is overwhelming that you SHOULD get vaccinated. | 00:47 |
| Tuvix | But when political leaders are saying the same thing so often, enough people buy into that. | 00:48 |
| Tuvix | Glad to hear that's considered fringe in Germany, as I suspect it is many other places too. | 00:48 |
| Arsanerit | I've only seen pro-vaccination ads, mostly by the government. But I don't see a lot of ads and I don't think highway ads are legal here. | 00:48 |
| Arsanerit | But they do reach plenty of audience via social media. | 00:48 |
| Tuvix | Heh, America does love their billboards by roads! | 00:48 |
| Arsanerit | Spain used to have a lot of them, until they banned them for traffic safety and landscape protection reasons (with exception of some old ones considered cultural heritage) | 00:49 |
| Arsanerit | Italy is ugly too in that sense. | 00:49 |
| Arsanerit | But along the German highway, there are ads for cultural or natural sights in upcoming towns, but no commercial ads as far as I know. | 00:49 |
| Arsanerit | They do need to make vaccination easier though. | 00:50 |
| Arsanerit | goodnight | 00:50 |
| Tuvix | Night! | 00:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Omicron may be less severe, but it's raising Houston hospitalizations to ‘staggering’ levels → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rw8byl/omicron_may_be_less_severe_but_its_raising/ | 01:09 |
| lastshell | I was able to find a free covid test I will now tonight if I have or not | 01:19 |
| lastshell | I'm vaxxedd and booster I hope not | 01:19 |
| sweetsymphony | Hope you don't have it lastshell | 01:41 |
| sweetsymphony | Or if you do it is asymptomatic or something | 01:41 |
| lastshell | thanks me too | 01:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Singapore’s COVID-19 weekly infection growth rate back above 1 for first time since Nov 12 → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rw97y5/singapores_covid19_weekly_infection_growth_rate/ | 01:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Hospitals see big jumps in COVID-19 patients, but this surge is different from last winter → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rw9ftn/hospitals_see_big_jumps_in_covid19_patients_but/ | 01:58 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Macron declares his Covid strategy is to ‘piss off’ the unvaccinated. “I am not about pissing off the French people,” the president said in an interview. “But as for the non-vaccinated, I really want to piss them off. And we will [... want %more?] → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/rw9oar/macron_declares_his_covid_strategy_is_to_piss_off/ | 02:07 |
| Tuvix | "you won't be able to go to the restaurant, you won't be able to take a cannon, you won't be able to go for a coffee, you won't be able to go to the theater, you won't be able to go to the movies..." « I'm not sure that'd even remotely work here in the US, but it sounds great. I'm not really sure how the French PM plans to pull that off either though… | 02:13 |
| LjL-Matrix | Tuvix: it's already how it is here... | 02:24 |
| LjL-Matrix | Far as I've read France is just imitating the Italian green pass | 02:25 |
| LjL-Matrix | Which in turn isn't too different from the Germanic area 2G 3G and so on except theirs is too complicated for my simple mind | 02:25 |
| AimHere | "take a cannon"? | 02:26 |
| Tuvix | Meanwhile, the folks against vaccination as a way "back to normal" decry any such restrictions backed by meaningful enforcement as an assualt on freedom. | 02:26 |
| LjL-Matrix | Granted, our government doesn't have the political strength to publicly say the intent is to piss em off | 02:26 |
| Tuvix | The folks here in the US, specifically. | 02:26 |
| LjL-Matrix | Not sure if Macron does or he just thinks he does | 02:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: Early signals of significantly increased vaccine breakthrough, decreased hospitalization rates, and less severe disease in patients with COVID-19 caused by the Omicron variant of SARS-CoV-2 in Houston, Texas → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/rw9ww0/early_signals_of_significantly_increased_vaccine/ | 02:26 |
| AimHere | Maybe that's lost in translation, but what sort of country has people taking their cannons out for a walk (Covid-permitting) | 02:26 |
| LjL-Matrix | He already did beat records for the least popular president right after an election | 02:27 |
| xx | AimHere: every frenchman is allowed to walk their cannon, just to be ready for a british invasion at any time. It's part of the basic rights for all french. | 02:27 |
| xx | this would be equivalent to letting only vaccinated americans bear arms | 02:29 |
| xx | now that would be something I'd love to see | 02:29 |
| xx | not that I'd agree with it, I'd just want to see what would happen | 02:29 |
| AimHere | Damn. I wish I was French. Le droit de porter des cannons! | 02:29 |
| sweetsymphony | I heard there was an old law that if it freezes and a Swede walks over to Denmark on the ice, Danes are allowed to hit them with a stick. | 02:35 |
| sweetsymphony | Over the head | 02:35 |
| xx | there are all sorts of old laws in most countries that haven't had to rewrite them in centuries | 02:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: Early signals of significantly increased vaccine breakthrough, decreased hospitalization rates, and less severe disease in patients with COVID-19 caused by the Omicron variant of SARS-CoV-2 in Houston, Texas: Type Report Author Paul A. Christensen Author Randall James Olsen Author [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/JXN624R2 | 02:46 |
| LjL | %title https://twitter.com/NickytaLeb/status/1478463189960507399 | 02:49 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From twitter.com: NK Leb (@NickytaLeb): "The vaccines have to be updated to match circulating strains, just like influenza vaccines, regardless of perceived severity of a strain, tissue tropism or epi data from [...] | 02:49 |
| LjL | i'm glad someone says this with such force | 02:49 |
| LjL | perhaps unsurprisingly, the first thing their profile says is "Intranasal Vaccines" (de-facto) | 02:49 |
| LjL | but also, lol https://twitter.com/NickytaLeb/status/1337698336166567939/photo/1 | 02:50 |
| LjL | maybe they do have an axe to grind | 02:50 |
| LjL | interesting sequence of rapid tests https://twitter.com/neurotheory/status/1477888239906148354 too bad when it actually started to wane they changed test, he changed test type | 02:52 |
| Tuvix | CDC's "updated" isolation guidance is just odd. They're keeping the 5-day isolation if you're positive, still don't suggest you get tested before returning, but *if* you do test and are positive, you're supposed to isolate another 5 days for 10-total. | 02:59 |
| Tuvix | CDC Director once again said this guidance wasn't based on lack of testing, but that's really not what it looks like. | 03:00 |
| LjL | <CarlSagan> [NPR - Science] The CDC resists pushback and says a test to get out of COVID isolation is not needed https://www.npr.org/2022/01/04/1070413311/cdc-test-covid-isolation-five-days 2022-01-04T20:25:20 | 03:03 |
| LjL | nice. resists *Fauci* pushback | 03:03 |
| LjL | Tuvix, Fauci said some days ago (maybe you linked it) that he expected the CDC guidance to change and "himself" he'd rather test | 03:04 |
| LjL | so maybe now the CDC is just being like "Fauci isn't the boss of us" or something | 03:04 |
| LjL | (ridiculous, anyway) | 03:04 |
| Tuvix | It's just more inconsistent messaging at a time when that's the last thing we need. | 03:08 |
| Tuvix | If supplies are short, level with the public about that, and maybe better yet, come up with more sane guidance about who should/shouldn't test, and what kind of tests ought to be used. | 03:08 |
| Tuvix | To me, this feels almost as silly now as about a year ago (Jan-2, 2021) when I felt a bit off from NYE which I also spent by myself at home. I called to schedule a PCR test, and the scheduling agent at the clinic didn't suggest I should, even though I had some mild symptoms. He just said "if you think you should have a test we can schedule you" or something similar. | 03:10 |
| * LjL-Matrix uploaded a video: (15648KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/wnORUnBHbXaqlFItRfkuWnbm/VID_20220105_030927.mp4 > | 03:11 | |
| LjL | Tuvix, i'm not sure the problem is supplies are short... rather, i suspect they just actively want people to go back to work even if they're positive, because they're afraid of worker shortage. it's been the same in other countries | 03:14 |
| LjL | with differences as to the specific policies, e.g. unless they changed it again, in Italy the 5-days-no-test policy is only for contacts of positives, not for known positive people | 03:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Rio cancels Carnival street parades due to rising COVID-19 cases, Omicron threat → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/rwaznd/rio_cancels_carnival_street_parades_due_to_rising/ | 03:15 |
| Tuvix | Sure would have been nice if more workplaces had 100% vaccinated-only works then, if that was the goal. I guess hindsight is always better, and maybe we'd have taken it more seriously if we knew what Delta and how Omicron had in store. | 03:15 |
| Tuvix | workers* | 03:15 |
| sweetsymphony | Yeah no good if measures result in society collapse. We walk a line. | 03:15 |
| Tuvix | Or, who knows, maybe it wouldn't have mattered in places like the US that's had excessively weak enforcement. | 03:15 |
| Tuvix | Requiring vaccinations for in-person socialization at more levels wouldn't have collapsed society. | 03:16 |
| Tuvix | Sure, a tiny minority would have quit, but we've seen with companies like United Airlines that had one of the earliest big coorporation vaccination requirement that it didn't result in a huge loss of workers. | 03:16 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: UCLA Study Shows Fast Food Workers at High Risk of Contracting COVID-19 → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwb2bj/ucla_study_shows_fast_food_workers_at_high_risk/ | 03:24 |
| Tuvix | Somehow not suprising, although I've seen fewer of them wearing masks. Not that I order drive-through fast food often, but it's a lot less than 6 or 12 months ago. | 03:26 |
| LjL | %fdroid chroma doze | 03:31 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, Chroma Doze 3.7.1 (net.pmarks.chromadoze) in https://f-droid.org/repo: Noise generator - updated 2018-06-20, see https://github.com/pmarks-net/chromadoze | 03:31 |
| LjL | xx, ↑ :P | 03:31 |
| xx | thanks | 03:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Japan to declare quasi-emergency in Okinawa as COVID-19 cases spike: Report → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwbbkl/japan_to_declare_quasiemergency_in_okinawa_as/ | 03:34 |
| LjL | "quasi-emergency" | 03:35 |
| LjL | how Japanese | 03:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, PhD-MD (@michaelzlin): Getting the wrong answer: $15.4 billion per year at the CDCGetting the right answer: free on TwitterOur lesson in how to properly manage a pandemic: unaffordablecnn.com/2022/01/04/hea… → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1478551093223178240 | 03:44 |
| zad | vs. let it rip, get vaccinated | 03:47 |
| Tuvix | The focus really should have been on meaningful vaccinations earlier; the reduction in serious cases requiring hospital care and death is just so obvious at this point. | 03:48 |
| Tuvix | We don't let school children mingle without Measles vaccines, but it's okay for Omicron which some doctors have compared to Measles in terms of how easily it spreads? Curious distinction. | 03:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: Structural basis of Omicron neutralization by affinity-matured public antibodies → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/rwc1a0/structural_basis_of_omicron_neutralization_by/ | 04:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: 'More painful than lockdown': Australia's hospitality industry left reeling from latest COVID wave → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/rwc7l1/more_painful_than_lockdown_australias_hospitality/ | 04:12 |
| sdfgsdfg | what is she whining about ? Half the bars are packed in melbourne | 04:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Macron says he wants to 'piss off' the non-vaccinated → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwcd84/macron_says_he_wants_to_piss_off_the_nonvaccinated/ | 04:22 |
| sdfgsdfg | even at the peak of omicron | 04:22 |
| sdfgsdfg | I see hundreds of people lining up in front of aquariums with their grandchildren, with big smiles on their faces :P | 04:23 |
| sdfgsdfg | the last waltz lmao | 04:23 |
| sdfgsdfg | I have a feeling half of the elderlies in that line will fill up the ICU statistics | 04:24 |
| gry | so you can educate people in your area | 04:29 |
| gry | write opinion pieces in newspapers, talk with friends and local whatever clubs and businesses | 04:30 |
| Tuvix | I've been tempted to put together some common myth-debunking stuff and go door-knocking around the area. | 04:30 |
| gry | if you are vaccinated and if you had infection, already, then sure | 04:30 |
| gry | otherwise you are risking infecting yourself and others | 04:30 |
| zad | sdfgsdfg: its how the media rolls, business complaints > public health | 04:30 |
| Tuvix | I have a high quality mask, although that alone would probably cause 90%+ of the people I'm trying to reach to refuse to talk to me :\ | 04:31 |
| gry | at least the 10% would be ok | 04:31 |
| zad | they can twist anything, so you almost believe | 04:31 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: Evidence does not justify mandatory vaccines - everyone should have the right to informed choice → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/rwcljj/evidence_does_not_justify_mandatory_vaccines/ | 04:31 |
| gry | also you can carry a mic and a bluetooth speaker to amplify your voice | 04:31 |
| LjL | Tuvix, some myth-debunking FAQ could be useful on the channel's github, since there's basically one entire FAQ there. as in, one question. but then be aware nobody ever reads that | 04:32 |
| zad | it's like living amongst zombies | 04:32 |
| gry | it is important to do it now zad | 04:32 |
| gry | education is a great weapon in a country arsenal | 04:33 |
| Tuvix | Well, here in the US it's a mixed bag, but it's not so much zombies as a divided culture, a good part of which is stuck in the paradigm that things were better in the "old days" and we should limit the pace of social change. | 04:33 |
| gry | i talk with all my friends and they too, and it helps | 04:33 |
| Tuvix | That demographic trends more rural, less educated, and more conservative in politics, but that's not a hard and fast rule either. | 04:33 |
| gry | one anti vaxxer i could not beat, but others are seemingly informed | 04:34 |
| zad | hunh | 04:34 |
| Tuvix | The other big shame in the US is the voice politicians who know better are using to spread false information (and certain well-funded media groups too) | 04:34 |
| Tuvix | Now our ex-president gets literally boo'd when he even mentions how much effect our vaccines have. | 04:34 |
| Tuvix | (and it was on his watch that he poured money into their deveopment in terms of domestic resources) | 04:35 |
| sdfgsdfg | - Harm outweighs benefits for young and previously infected --> she's right about that in the last article link | 04:35 |
| zad | our schools reopened today, .. | 04:35 |
| Tuvix | sdfgsdfg: Tell that to a friend of mine who had to explain why his 13 year old schoolmate died of COVID. You've asked some odd questions here, like if it's legal (or an occuring practice) to *fake* death certificates. | 04:36 |
| sdfgsdfg | The average duration of follow-up for people in the first report from the Pfizer trial, on which licensing was based, was only 46 days, for example. [1] The recent report on data from people who had been in the trial for up to 6 months revealed that the mean total duration of follow-up for the primary outcome of the double-blind trial was 3.6 months for those who received the vaccine and 3.5 months for those allocated to placebo. [2] Moreover, only | 04:36 |
| sdfgsdfg | 7% of participants actually remained in the double blind trial for 6 months. [3] Real-world data are not consistent with the trial results, with high case numbers in doubly vaccinated individuals reported from the UK [4] and Israel [5], for example. | 04:36 |
| Tuvix | sdfgsdfg: Do you have some medical papers that clarify these risks you're referring to? | 04:36 |
| zad | well the ex-prez also created the frankenstein | 04:36 |
| sdfgsdfg | I'm here to discuss scientific facts, I don't remember implying anything about illegal documents | 04:37 |
| sdfgsdfg | I remember mentioning my study on a fake vax certificate, for security research purposes | 04:37 |
| zad | or Is he the ex- don't think he conceeded gracefully | 04:37 |
| sdfgsdfg | but I haven't said anything about death certificates | 04:38 |
| Tuvix | 2022-01-04 03:18 < sdfgsdfg> is it true that theres a financial incentive and bonuses for declaring a death is covid related in hospitals | 04:38 |
| Tuvix | Yes you did. | 04:38 |
| Tuvix | 2022-01-04 04:28 < sdfgsdfg> is it true that astrazeneca doses make you even more vulnerable to covid ? | 04:38 |
| sdfgsdfg | oh right, | 04:38 |
| Tuvix | Enough of this crap, please. | 04:38 |
| gry | oopsies | 04:38 |
| sdfgsdfg | please stop | 04:38 |
| -Bridgestorm- 🌒 Deprem! Earthquake! 5.4 Mb tremor, registered by alomax, with 40 reports, 2 early, occurred 17 minutes ago (03:21:15 UTC), duing a crescent moon night, Turkey (36.04, 31.19), ↓11 km likely felt 210 km away (Twitter) | 04:38 | |
| sdfgsdfg | this is mentioned by the inventor of MRNA vaccine tech | 04:39 |
| LjL | i agree. prefixing misinformation with "is it true" is weaseling out of responsibility | 04:39 |
| gry | you are being asked to stop sdfgsdfg | 04:39 |
| gry | not others | 04:39 |
| sdfgsdfg | you are being ignorant right now, I can share references | 04:39 |
| gry | please | 04:39 |
| sdfgsdfg | plus, it was a question, not a revelation | 04:39 |
| LjL | bullshit is still bullshit even if cleverly phrased in the form of a question | 04:39 |
| gry | please phrase it more accurately | 04:39 |
| Tuvix | it's a pattern of behavior, and no *one* thing is "the" problem. But this is fairly obviously intentional. | 04:39 |
| gry | "you don't know that person X is saying crap Y" does not mean "you are ignorant" | 04:39 |
| sdfgsdfg | being curious about something and asking about it | 04:39 |
| gry | it can mean that, but it is not necessarily true | 04:39 |
| gry | it's an inaccurate accusation | 04:39 |
| gry | please don't do that | 04:39 |
| sdfgsdfg | who are you referring to can you please tag the person | 04:40 |
| gry | dissent is allowed, but it needs to be phrased very precisely | 04:40 |
| sdfgsdfg | lol this is so confusing | 04:40 |
| LjL | <sdfgsdfg> this is mentioned by the inventor of MRNA vaccine tech ← who i assume you think is Malone? | 04:40 |
| sdfgsdfg | gry who are you talking to | 04:40 |
| gry | you | 04:40 |
| gry | you called someone ignorant, and i think it was not precise | 04:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Florida reports 51,644 more COVID cases as hospitalizations climb → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwcr7e/florida_reports_51644_more_covid_cases_as/ | 04:40 |
| sdfgsdfg | yes it's malone he is the name that started the series of researches of mRNA lipid extractions | 04:41 |
| gry | it's better to share references straight away and elaborate, without accusing people | 04:41 |
| sdfgsdfg | which based the invention of vaccines like moderna, moderna was also based on malones studies | 04:41 |
| gry | yes moderna is mrna also | 04:41 |
| gry | what did malone say? | 04:41 |
| sdfgsdfg | so malone is legitimately the inventor of mRNA vaccines | 04:41 |
| LjL | sdfgsdfg, well, he's not "the inventor of mRNA vaccine tech", but a *certain category* of people always consistently misrepresent him as being such | 04:41 |
| LjL | so i'll be an echo: don't do that. | 04:41 |
| gry | he contributed | 04:42 |
| sdfgsdfg | he is the biggest contributor that started the chain of researches of vaccine mRNA delivery platform | 04:42 |
| sdfgsdfg | if you wnat to reduce it to just "contribution" at least you can say it like this | 04:42 |
| Tuvix | mRNA as a technology has been a thing for decades, although this is realy the first widespread application of it as a technology. Science often has slow progress for years/decades, until some kind of incentive (like a global pandemic) brings it into the lime-light. This is not a unique phenomenon either. | 04:43 |
| gry | so he is a big contributor | 04:43 |
| gry | what did he say about astrazeneca (that i can't spell)? | 04:43 |
| Tuvix | "There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen." | 04:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Fact Check-German institute did not report 96% of Omicron cases fully vaccinated → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwcr7i/fact_checkgerman_institute_did_not_report_96_of/ | 04:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Thoughts on Dr. Peter Attia’s newest episode? I thought it provided solid data and a compelling case for getting back to normal and having a more nuanced approach → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwd2i0/thoughts_on_dr_peter_attias_newest_episode_i/ | 04:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Quebec may soon require COVID-19 vaccine passports to access liquor and cannabis stores → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwditv/quebec_may_soon_require_covid19_vaccine_passports/ | 05:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Commentary: To live with COVID-19, we must plan for a permanent pandemic → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwdrit/commentary_to_live_with_covid19_we_must_plan_for/ | 05:28 |
| xx | a permanent pandemic? | 05:28 |
| xx | that's... surely a new phrase | 05:28 |
| LjL | xx, well, i hope this doesn't materialize, but based on "If waves of coronavirus variants are likely to hit us regularly, we need a system of emergency responses entrenched in law and practice, says the Financial Times’ Martin Sandbu", this does sound like it would be somewhat different from what we'd normally call endemic | 05:31 |
| critr | as long as there are a lot of unvaccinated people, there will be ample opportunity for covid19 mutations. | 05:33 |
| xx | if it was declared 'permanent pandemic', it would be the same as giving up on it and just declaring it essentially over, letting it kill the old/weak and damage a % of others. | 05:33 |
| LjL | the ostensible reasoning behind the WHO *not* declaring it a pandemic for the first few months was that declaring it a pandemic would be a sign to "give up" | 05:34 |
| xx | critr: not sure about that, just by sheer numbers we're at >50% vaccinated in many places, and it's still spreading a lot and presumably mutating in vaccinated people too | 05:34 |
| LjL | (give up an attempt at containment, in that case) | 05:35 |
| LjL | also, i'm sure "permanent" really refers to something that is relevant to our lives, as in, "for the rest of our lives", not literally permanent, but with that in mind... cholera caused 7 pandemics according to wikipedia, and sure you can view them as seven distinct, discrete pandemics, but all in all it pretty much meant "more pandemic than not" throughout 150 years or so | 05:36 |
| xx | well, them not declaring it a pandemic has led to a missed opportunity to contain it more, but we'll never know | 05:36 |
| LjL | which means there were people who never lived without the constant thread of another "wave" of cholera pandemic | 05:36 |
| xx | well at least cholera isn't airborne | 05:36 |
| xx | (ignoring fecal particles in the air) | 05:37 |
| Tuvix | xx: Re: 50% or better, we've seen resurgence of "old" viruses like Measles when even a local population in part of a city drops below a threshold, about 90% in the case of the 2015 outbreak where 1 traveller ended up infecting a population in NYC. | 05:41 |
| xx | true | 05:41 |
| Tuvix | Granted Measles is quite *highly* infectious, but that's also why we vaccinate and require it (a "mandate" if you will) for school children. But it shows that you still can't get lax about a virus we've "beaten" just because it'is not really a thing in the 1st world. | 05:42 |
| Tuvix | And you know what else is rather highly infectious? Omicron :\ | 05:42 |
| xx | I'm just saying that I don't believe that infections will stop and the virus will disappear just because we manage to vaccinate some specific % of people | 05:42 |
| xx | or that mutations will stop | 05:42 |
| xx | the no.1 goal should have always been eradictation, mainly through preventing further infections | 05:42 |
| LjL | xx, aside from the title and the term "permanent pandemic" anyway, i find this article eminently sound, if depressing | 05:43 |
| sweetsymphony | Even if that was the case in rich countries with high vaccine rates, there are poor countries without where the virus can spread and mutate | 05:43 |
| zad | LjL: so what are the chances that each new variant is less pathogenic, Topol substack new, is optimistic | 05:43 |
| xx | sweetsymphony: true, but stringent testing on borders could have been implemented, or could be in the future | 05:43 |
| LjL | zad, Topol is a notorious optimist, i think we can blame him of that :P | 05:44 |
| LjL | i think it's certainly a possibility, but not the only possibility | 05:44 |
| LjL | but then again you should probably listen to Topol more than to me | 05:44 |
| xx | well, delta came after wild/alpha/beta/... and was certainly not less pathogenic | 05:44 |
| Tuvix | The optimist looks at the glass and declares it half-full; the pessimist half-empty. The realist stares at it a while, finally deciding the glass is clearly twice as large as it need be. | 05:45 |
| xx | and I look at the glass and ask "Has anyone touched that?" | 05:45 |
| Tuvix | Ah, the skeptic. | 05:45 |
| xx | nah, skeptic would be "I don't believe there's a glass" | 05:46 |
| zad | xx: was delta more transmissble? like R0 value | 05:46 |
| LjL | an older article with much of the same tone: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-03-24/when-will-covid-end-we-must-start-planning-for-a-permanent-pandemic | 05:47 |
| xx | zad: I think so, don't have the number though. It outpaced all others at that time, so I'd even guess yes. | 05:48 |
| LjL | i'd say it's very safe to say "yes" | 05:48 |
| xx | hmm, who'd be the one to say "Where's your evidence that there's a glass? Please provide a study" | 05:48 |
| LjL | there can be local phenomena where a variants that's not *actually* more transmissible appears to dominate for a while (hi de-facto) | 05:48 |
| LjL | but that can't happen *worldwide* like it has with Delta and now Omicron | 05:48 |
| Tuvix | That was a double-whammy in the US in particular where the vaccinated were being told that they could return to normal without masks, and shortly later Delta hit. | 05:49 |
| LjL | xx, the redditor | 05:49 |
| xx | hah | 05:49 |
| xx | Tuvix: yeah that was a massive mistake that we all have predicted | 05:49 |
| Tuvix | Before the surge from Delta hit, I saw the writing on the wall and abrubtly stopped going places without a mask. I was careful, but went to a couple of places I missed earlier in 2020/2021 to dine, during off-hours. I stopped all of that around August when it was clear case-load was rising again. | 05:50 |
| zad | ulterior motives | 05:50 |
| xx | zad: hmm? | 05:50 |
| LjL | will we do the n-th mistake if after saying "it will never go away", we say "but it will become endemic and it'll be just another flu"? | 05:50 |
| LjL | because these article state that probably not, and i think in the back of my head, i'm almost *certain* the answer is not, but don't want to accept this reality | 05:50 |
| xx | eventually some president of some influential country will say "Some of you will die, some of you will be left with permanent disability, and that's something we've decided to accept. May luck be in your favor." | 05:51 |
| Tuvix | We've had a few close calls in years past; the H1N1 avian flu, and the original SARS that didn't turn into a global crisis. | 05:51 |
| Tuvix | This one finally landed a combination that spreads easily and mutates when given enough chance to do so. | 05:52 |
| xx | Tuvix: despite it being "only a few years" between SARS/MERS/avianflu and COVID, there has been a big increase in air travel, tourism, goods transportation, population density, ... | 05:52 |
| LjL | Tuvix, unfortunately i think those "false alarms" (that really weren't, but in the flu case i think, tons of vaccines were bought and left unused by governments) contributed to governments disregarding any future risk, not keeping their pandemic plans updated, not stocking needed items, etc | 05:53 |
| xx | so maybe if original SARS/MERS or some bad flu happened today, it would be just as bad or worse than covid | 05:53 |
| LjL | MERS is constantly "happening" | 05:53 |
| LjL | it's just not becoming a pandemic, so far | 05:53 |
| LjL | see also Ebola | 05:53 |
| LjL | my impression is circumstances didn't change *so* much, and it's mainly just a more subtle virus | 05:54 |
| xx | one day I'll start the radio and hear 'Airbola is out there' and that's when I'll switch it off and go home, nail wooden planks to the windows and wait it out | 05:54 |
| zad | or the big businesses will stop being able to profit, and decide on a worldwide effort | 05:54 |
| LjL | zad, the *really big* businesses have benefited from the pandemic | 05:55 |
| LjL | the top 1% has become richer | 05:55 |
| xx | I still remember the early months of 2020 when everyone thought we're all gonna die of corona. Astronomia was voted the offical song of coronavirus. | 06:04 |
| LjL | did they all think that? | 06:04 |
| LjL | 'cause i had the impression every country thought "oh they suck but we'll be fine" | 06:04 |
| xx | well, streets were empty enough | 06:04 |
| LjL | in turns | 06:04 |
| xx | for those few days/weeks | 06:05 |
| xx | but the feelings I had during those times are something I'll never forget | 06:05 |
| xx | similar to 9/11 times | 06:05 |
| xx | that the world will never be the same | 06:05 |
| LjL | xx, the thing i remember the most i think is when we passed Korea's cases (Korea being the first country after China to be affected in meaningful numbers), which was 7000 *total* cases (now, i would say "we have 7000 *every day*", but whoops, that was months ago, now we have *170000* every day) | 06:08 |
| Tuvix | Speaking of, I haven't ran my JHU mortality numbers recently. I'm hoping the vaccinated plus somewhat reduced virality Omicron seems to have offset the crazy case numbers, but the US alone is experiencing, based on 7-day aveages, a 2,996 national mortality event every ≈58.2 hours. Most of which are avoidable with vaccination. | 06:08 |
| LjL | i distinctly remember thinking "okay, we're fucked" | 06:08 |
| xx | hmm I must remember it wrong, because I thought Italy was 2nd after China's numbers back then | 06:09 |
| LjL | since then, that thought occurred many more times | 06:09 |
| LjL | i also remember taking a slightly lockdown-flouting walk | 06:10 |
| Tuvix | US also recently passed the grim milestone of a quarter-percent of the population lost to COVID since the pandemic started, a marker few other countries have crossed. | 06:10 |
| LjL | and it was kind of surreal, it was late evening / night to be fairr | 06:10 |
| LjL | there were just some empty trams | 06:10 |
| LjL | no cars, no one | 06:10 |
| xx | anyone else have the grim preditions that we'll hit 300M this week? | 06:10 |
| xx | *by the end of this week? | 06:10 |
| Tuvix | LjL: I had to go into a facility to a nearby downtown during the partial in-person lockdowns around here. I left in what should have been rush-hour downtown, but it was empty. No busses, no peeople, and no traffic. | 06:11 |
| LjL | xx, http://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Italy;South%20Korea&rightTrim=650&legacy=no the day was March 8 as you can see | 06:11 |
| LjL | Tuvix, i was panicking also because i couldn't convince my parents that something huge was going on and they should take measures | 06:11 |
| xx | ah I see, thanks | 06:11 |
| LjL | a month or two later, my mom said crying "you were right, everything you said would happen, happened" | 06:11 |
| LjL | xx, of course Korea's just looks like a tiny little thing now | 06:12 |
| xx | yeah | 06:12 |
| Tuvix | We've managed to normalize a continuing mass-casuality event as "normal" now. | 06:12 |
| LjL | Tuvix, i don't think we needed to do much to "achieve" that | 06:12 |
| LjL | humans just habituate | 06:13 |
| LjL | xx, i also remember the dread when a town like 20km from here was first cordoned off | 06:13 |
| LjL | and i was trying to convince my parents to leave to the alps because Milan would be next, since those suburbs all commute with Milan | 06:14 |
| zad | 1 in 500 , 1 in 100 over 60 | 06:14 |
| LjL | (okay a bit selfish i guess, don't tell de-facto i was pushing for *moving* during this) | 06:14 |
| xx | yeah... milan... I remember reading about that hotspot | 06:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: Emergence in Southern France of a new SARS-CoV-2 variant of probably Cameroonian origin harbouring both substitutions N501Y and E484K in the spike protein → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/rwepig/emergence_in_southern_france_of_a_new_sarscov2/ | 06:15 |
| xx | all the worlds media was reporting that city | 06:16 |
| critr | what's wrong with that? newton moved during the black plague. | 06:16 |
| xx | yeah, back then humans didn't even have 1B population | 06:16 |
| xx | people conveniently ignore just how *massive* the effect of total population and population density is on viral spread | 06:17 |
| critr | yep | 06:17 |
| Tuvix | We saw some realtime examples of that in the US where less-dense rural areas were initially hit less hard, but that's largely flipped now, since those same areas tended to be less-vaccinated, and are now experiencing far more per-capita death due to the impact being unvaccinated has. | 06:18 |
| LjL | xx, i'm so lucky, in the middle of the world's news reports | 06:18 |
| xx | I've only seen video feeds from that place during that time, it must have been quite the experience to actually be there | 06:19 |
| LjL | <critr> what's wrong with that? ← well, lockdowns tried to stop precisely that, so clearly they thought it was wrong | 06:19 |
| zad | if the death was more prominent, maybe the denial would weaken | 06:19 |
| LjL | my "prediction" didn't actually come true, i.e. Milan was never cordoned off per se | 06:19 |
| zad | all we ever see are numbers | 06:19 |
| critr | hm, good point. | 06:19 |
| LjL | it was just... *every* municipality, *including* Milan, got cordoned off from all the other ones | 06:19 |
| LjL | initially just in Lombardy, then nationwide | 06:20 |
| xx | zad: well if the numbers were like 30% infected die, then that too would be harder to ignore, even if you never experienced those deaths around you | 06:20 |
| zad | thats how I felt for the 1st 6 months of CV | 06:20 |
| LjL | big UGH | 06:22 |
| xx | the daily new cases graph looks like doom... | 06:23 |
| LjL | just saw (from a youtube video title, so can't vouch on truthfulness, but still) Merck's pill is now available in Italy | 06:23 |
| LjL | i'm not too thrilled about that | 06:23 |
| LjL | (no sign of Paxlovid though :\) | 06:24 |
| xx | well, say mercks pill is administered to 1k people. Will that cause more possibly beneficials mutations for the virus than >2M new cases daily? | 06:24 |
| critr | at first i thought sweden was doing the right thing... business as usual, let lots of people die, those with natural immunity will survice, problem solved. that was before it came out that c19 is having massive long term mental and physical health effects on survivors. | 06:24 |
| Tuvix | The irony of people who will, presumably, be willing to take those pills but refuse the vaccine due to "lack of data" is not lost on me. | 06:24 |
| xx | just by numbers my bet would be on wild mutations outcompeting any mutations introduced through that pill | 06:24 |
| xx | but that's just it, a guess/bet | 06:24 |
| LjL | uhm, also looks like there was just a pretty big spike in *vaccinated* people getting positive https://lab24.ilsole24ore.com/coronavirus/#box_21 | 06:25 |
| LjL | xx, well it's not like Merck's pill will *prevented* those >2M new cases daily. it just adds more risk | 06:25 |
| xx | yeah, but in terms of risk management it doesn't feel so serious. Those >2M daily cases is already excellent breeding ground for beneficial mutations. | 06:26 |
| Tuvix | The mutagenic results is the bigger question; does that out-pace the natural mutations we'd see as infections spread. There's not a good way to answer that without some Schrödinger-style parallel universes with both options. | 06:26 |
| xx | and at least those being administered that pill are in a more controlled environment | 06:26 |
| * Tuvix has a cat named Schrödinger, so I'll ask him what the odds are. | 06:27 | |
| LjL | Tuvix, xx: but do we need to take the risk when Paxlovid, and possibly even Fluoxetine, are actually more effective? | 06:27 |
| LjL | (by far, in the case of Paxlovid) | 06:27 |
| xx | isn't fluoexetine also of concern? | 06:27 |
| Tuvix | Well, more effective perhaps, but less effective with the zero doses Italy has. | 06:27 |
| Tuvix | (if that figure is correct) | 06:27 |
| xx | uh | 06:27 |
| xx | I'm getting confused | 06:27 |
| Tuvix | Production is a serious issue with Paxlovid. | 06:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Steve Miller (@SteveMillerOC): The COVID-19 Public Theraputic Locator:healthdata.gov/Health/COVID-1…A list of drugstores and other locations you can get Paxlovid and other therapies, from healthdata.gov pic.twitter.com/KvPCZlPp7N → https://twitter.com/SteveMillerOC/status/1478598363859718146 | 06:35 |
| xx | yes, confused that with favipiravir | 06:36 |
| xx | which has already been tried out there, and has similar concerns as molnupiravir | 06:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: NY COVID Hospitalizations Top 10K for 1st Time in 20 Months; CDC Puts Omicron at Up to 99% of Cases → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwfcn8/ny_covid_hospitalizations_top_10k_for_1st_time_in/ | 06:53 |
| critr | if it's hospitalizations, not just cases, that's not good news. | 06:58 |
| xx | on the one hand, constant reports "Omicron milder" and "Shorter quarantine recommended", on the other hand "Hospitals getting full" | 07:04 |
| lastshell | hey guys flanax is ok for covid (body aches)? | 07:07 |
| xx | lastshell: what's the generic name? | 07:08 |
| lastshell | Naproxen | 07:08 |
| lastshell | Im feel fine but mom has some body aches | 07:08 |
| xx | what did her doctor say? | 07:09 |
| lastshell | nothing yet | 07:09 |
| critr | naproxen is maybe the most effective nsaid you can get otc. i take it for arthritis. | 07:10 |
| xx | yeah I mean it's a fine drug that I'd generally ok for people, but her doctor knows more about her current medical conditions | 07:11 |
| xx | or at least a good doctor would | 07:11 |
| lastshell | we will check tomorrow with her doc | 07:11 |
| lastshell | thanks | 07:11 |
| Tuvix | xx: Machine guns are less accurate than sniper rifles. Would you stand in front of 200 machine guns firing at you from a half-mile away instead of 5 snipers? Same concept. | 07:12 |
| Tuvix | Re: more mild vs. hospitals getting full. | 07:12 |
| Tuvix | The math doesn't work out to be "less cases of severe illness" when the denominator is an order of magnitude different. | 07:13 |
| xx | you and I know that, but the media reports are causing trouble | 07:14 |
| Tuvix | Well, on one had it's not exactly wrong to say that most cases (especially in the vaccinated) are presenting as mild, but sure, it's also a bit of both misleading and rosey optimism to say that the result won't be as bad. | 07:19 |
| xx | do people think we'll reach 10M new cases per day this month? | 07:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Home Affairs Minister issues warning to unvaccinated tennis stars amid Novak Djokovic’s Australian Open exemption → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/rwftyq/home_affairs_minister_issues_warning_to/ | 07:22 |
| xx | I think that's what we're tending to given what was happening on newyears and what the current lax restrictions, unavailability of testing, media reporting about mildness, and shortening of quarantines is any predictor | 07:22 |
| xx | 300M total cases by friday, 10M/day new cases by Jan 15 would be my bet | 07:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Philippines cancels 'Black Nazarene' parade again on COVID-19 concerns → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwfwnx/philippines_cancels_black_nazarene_parade_again/ | 07:31 |
| zad | I guess if all these cases are self-isolating for 5 days, its already too much, at this rate of infection | 07:31 |
| zad | though, I think/guess a low rate actually isolate anymore effectively | 07:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Tech executive resigns after sending an email to CEOs and politicians sharing an antisemitic conspiracy theory about COVID-19 vaccines → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/rwg4y6/tech_executive_resigns_after_sending_an_email_to/ | 07:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from MedicineNet: (news): Getting Your Child Their Vaccine? Some Tips on Easing Needle Fears → http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp | 07:59 |
| Tuvix | zad: Well, all of them won't be; it's all still just "guidance." https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/quarantine-isolation.html | 08:15 |
| Tuvix | See phrases like, "Who should quarantine?" and "If you are unable to quarantine, you should wear a well-fitting mask for 10 days when around others at home and in public." | 08:15 |
| Tuvix | So, people "should" do all this. But, you know, don't have to. :( | 08:15 |
| Tuvix | "Everyone who has presumed or confirmed COVID-19 should stay home and isolate from other people for at least 5 full days" | 08:16 |
| Tuvix | But, hey, if you know you're positive and just really have to go to the bar, I guess that's okay. /s | 08:17 |
| zad | and maybe 20% might, but then the 5 day rule, is also being used to force workers back | 08:17 |
| Tuvix | Yea, and a doc on a national TV program pulled up a chart (not sure offhand what data this was, I'd have to go pull up that clip again) where after day-5 from a positive test, something like 35% of cases are still infectious. | 08:18 |
| Tuvix | Ah, that source was a preprint from UKHSA. | 08:18 |
| Tuvix | So, we'll have our doctors aware of studies from the rest of the globe, then blatnetly ignore them! | 08:19 |
| zad | infectious with a R10 virus | 08:19 |
| Tuvix | Also, it was 31% people testing still-contagious after day-5, not 35%. I wouldn't want to be missquoting such a *significant* (again, /s) difference. | 08:20 |
| zad | in my city, they are finally making noises to "limit large gatherings" lol | 08:20 |
| Tuvix | Given the public backlash against even common-sense health measures, I get the feeling a lot of this is to try and slowly encourage people on the fence about some of this to do something resembling the bare minimum. | 08:21 |
| zad | hands are tied, by the wedding of business interests to media/politics | 08:22 |
| Tuvix | Same CDC article, "They should wear a mask when around others at home and in public for an additional 5 days." | 08:23 |
| zad | public just parrots the dangerous distortions of what they are exposed to | 08:23 |
| Tuvix | Firefox reader mode says that CDC article is a 17-21 minute read. Way too long to fit into a twitter post! | 08:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: New coronavirus variant identified in France → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwgvww/new_coronavirus_variant_identified_in_france/ | 08:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Quebec reserves PCR testing for select high-risk groups → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwgwn4/quebec_reserves_pcr_testing_for_select_highrisk/ | 08:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Australia grants medical exemption to unvaccinated star tennis player Novak Djokovic to enter and play in Australia. → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/rwh4d4/australia_grants_medical_exemption_to/ | 08:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Covid-19: GP practices can access “contingency supply” of lateral flow and PCR tests: GP practices that are struggling to access covid-19 testing for their staff can use a “significant contingency supply” reserved for the health service and local authorities, NHS England has said.In a... → http://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o4.short | 09:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: Human medicine assessment reports: (news): Human medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): Insulin lispro Sanofi, insulin lispro, Diabetes Mellitus, Date of authorisation: 18/07/2017, Revision: 6, Status: Authorised → https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/EPAR/insulin-lispro-sanofi | 09:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Boris Johnson To Host Covid Downing Street Press Conference → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/rwi945/boris_johnson_to_host_covid_downing_street_press/ | 10:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Okinawa may declare emergency Covid measures as virus spreads from US base → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwic4k/okinawa_may_declare_emergency_covid_measures_as/ | 10:12 |
| Dredd | Morning all | 10:21 |
| Dredd | Sounds like Boris might be going to announce some new measures to try and keep a lid on the NHS situation such as it were | 10:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Covid: Travel firms call for removal of testing rules: With case rates of the Omicron variant so high, airlines say testing passengers is having no real impact. → https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59876063 | 10:21 |
| Dredd | > With case rates of the Omicron variant so high, airlines say testing passengers is having no real impact. | 10:22 |
| Dredd | Sure, okay. Great argument for shutting down travel entirely for a bit except in the most absolutely strict exceptions, right de-facto? | 10:22 |
| Dredd | 😉 | 10:22 |
| Dredd | wrt to UK strategy. Seems like we may need a delayed school restart or a lockdown to give us time to work through the wave of omicron induced NHS staff shortages then resume "life as normal" again in a few weeks? | 10:23 |
| sdfgsdfg | hey it doesn't look like UK is going to lock down though | 10:28 |
| gry | Hello, sdfgsdfg. | 10:28 |
| sdfgsdfg | I don't think that's a good idea but who am I to comment on that :P | 10:28 |
| sdfgsdfg | hi gry | 10:28 |
| gry | Victoria (a state in Australia) is trying to make RAT free for everyone. Other states aren't. I think. | 10:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Novak Djokovic: Australian Open vaccine exemption ignites backlash → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/rwiq98/novak_djokovic_australian_open_vaccine_exemption/ | 10:31 |
| sdfgsdfg | the PCR tests have, and will always be free in australia - they also want the RAT tests to be free | 10:32 |
| sdfgsdfg | have been* | 10:32 |
| sdfgsdfg | I hope they do it here in vic, it'll make everyone a bit happier I guess :) | 10:38 |
| imaginary | lol djokovic | 10:40 |
| sweetsymph | They sell them in shops here | 10:49 |
| sweetsymph | The rapid antigen tests | 10:49 |
| sweetsymph | Expensive | 10:50 |
| sweetsymph | But...many sold out I think | 10:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: I saw my friend fourteen days after they tested positive for Covid should I be fine? → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwiyrh/i_saw_my_friend_fourteen_days_after_they_tested/ | 10:50 |
| sweetsymph | I think I mistook the names PCR and rapid antigen before woops | 10:50 |
| sweetsymph | This is Qld where they are for sale. Went to the shop just before. Lot of shelves empty. History repeating. Just makes it feel a little more real qhen everyone else catches up and panic buys the food out, although I heard it is a lot to do with people in the supply chain being in isolation. | 10:55 |
| oerheks | ... or just to push the price up? | 10:56 |
| Dredd | <sdfgsdfg> "hey it doesn't look like UK is..." <- Well, Boris has called a press conference which he only does to announce things these days | 11:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: First Opinion: Opinion: ‘Protect our hospitals’ might convince Britons to get Covid-19 vaccines, but it won’t work in the U.S. → https://www.statnews.com/2022/01/05/protect-our-hospitals-covid-19-vaccine-argument/ | 11:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: Things seem grim now. But America's COVID situation could get better in 6-8 weeks: In the face of rising COVID-19 cases, Dr. Bob Wachter of the University of California, San Francisco offers reasons to be hopeful about the pandemic's outlook in the [... want %more?] → https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2022/01/05/1070380589/omicron-covid-cases-prediction | 11:09 |
| Dredd | <imaginary> "lol djokovic" <- djokodick imo 😉 | 11:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: White House embraces a manage-not-contain Omicron game plan: The president is under immense pressure to keep some semblance of social normalcy amid a pandemic that is absolutely roaring. → https://www.politico.com/news/2022/01/04/biden-white-house-omicron-plan-526516 | 11:19 |
| imaginary | Dredd: agreed ngl | 11:20 |
| Dredd | 🤣 | 11:23 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid: Greater Manchester hospitals cancel surgery as NHS pressures mount → https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-59878179 | 11:29 |
| Dredd | Wow, postitive PCR rates are up to 25% in my region of the UK (South West) | 11:32 |
| * Dredd uploaded an image: (92KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/shortestpath.dev/TSSCKBrbMRZEyXdrjdGQbNLS/image.png > | 11:32 | |
| Dredd | In my city is 30% 😧 | 11:34 |
| * Dredd uploaded an image: (95KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/shortestpath.dev/MRqRnTSvxhhTjYIoKxEreaBZ/image.png > | 11:35 | |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: John Burn-Murdoch (@jburnmurdoch): We're live on Twitter Spaces in a few hours for the latest instalment of "What do we know about Omicron?"We’ll discuss severity, hospital pressure, risk to kids, testing and isolation policies, fourth doses and more.Please send us questions, and [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1478676142555115528 | 11:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Covid Fact Check UK (@fact_covid): Sir Keir has now tested positive on two occasions. He reportedly has no symptoms. This will be his sixth(!) period of isolation due to COVID-19. twitter.com/skynews/status… → https://twitter.com/fact_covid/status/1478676832631369730 | 11:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Omicron: South Africa says fourth wave peak has passed as it lifts curfew: South Africa has relaxed its covid-19 restrictions as it reports that the peak of its fourth wave, this time of the omicron variant, looks likely to have passed without a spike in deaths.The... → http://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o7.short | 11:58 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: CDC posts rationale for shorter isolation, quarantine → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwk3v8/cdc_posts_rationale_for_shorter_isolation/ | 12:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from ECDC: ECDC: Data on the daily number of new reported COVID-19 cases and deaths by EU/EEA country → https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/data-daily-new-cases-covid-19-eueea-country | 12:17 |
| oerheks | yesterdays record 2m+ new cases https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ | 12:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: New Coronavirus Variant Identified In France → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/rwlbxz/new_coronavirus_variant_identified_in_france/ | 13:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Dr Emma Hodcroft (@firefoxx66): Really key points from @redouad & @AdamJKucharski: a lot of COVID tools (as with so many tools in academia) are essentially labours of love, un- or under-funded & powered by precariously-employed scientists, for little 'academic cred'. How do we ensure those [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/firefoxx66/status/1478703026957611010 | 13:24 |
| sweetsymph | https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/icu-capacity-at-major-brisbane-hospital-cut-as-staff-fall-victim-to-covid-20220102-p59lbx.html | 13:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): The future w immunity high in the population, w tests eventually only required in a hospital setting. When is the right time? When circulation is low? With medication readily available? Spring, next month?Masks to reduce spread till circulation is low. bbc.com/news/business-… → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1478706379758223367 | 13:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): January 5th, 2022; Almost 60% of the world population is vaccinated; but only 8.5% of low-income countries is shameful. I hope this will be increased rapidly! This affects us all. pic.twitter.com/fTeNdFxkPn → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1478708251311099906 | 13:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Virus protesters warned after tens of thousands rally in Germany → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwm4ev/virus_protesters_warned_after_tens_of_thousands/ | 14:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from Science-Based Medicine: COVID Vaccines and Cardiac Effects – Reality vs Lies: COVID mRNA vaccines only result in rare, mild, and transitory myocarditis, but this doesn't stop misinformation from spreading. The post first appeared on Science-Based Medicine . → https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/covid-vaccines-and-cardiac-effects-reality-vs-lies/ | 14:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from New Scientist: Covid-19 news: New variant found in France doesn’t seem to have spread: The latest coronavirus news updated every day including coronavirus cases, the latest news, features and interviews from New Scientist and essential information [... want %more?] → https://www.newscientist.com/article/2237475-covid-19-news-new-variant-found-in-france-doesnt-seem-to-have-spread/ | 14:31 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: Coronavirus: Poland’s President Andrzej Duda tests positive for COVID-19 → https://www.politico.eu/article/poland-president-andrzej-duda-positive-covid-19/ | 14:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: (PDF) Ivermectin Prophylaxis Used for COVID-19 Reduces COVID-19 Infection and Mortality Rates: A City-Wide, Prospective Observational Study of 220,517 Subjects Using Propensity Score Matching. → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/rwn4f9/pdf_ivermectin_prophylaxis_used_for_covid19/ | 15:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: What's new: Document: Dexamethasone / tobramycin: List of nationally authorised medicinal products - PSUSA/00000979/202103 → https://www.ema.europa.eu/documents/psusa/dexamethasone/tobramycin-list-nationally-authorised-medicinal-products-psusa/00000979/202103_en.pdf | 15:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Novak Djokovic: Australian Open vaccine exemption ignites backlash → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/rwnts9/novak_djokovic_australian_open_vaccine_exemption/ | 15:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: The Morning: Omicron is milder → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwnzts/the_morning_omicron_is_milder/ | 15:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: "Supersonic" rise in French COVID-19 cases in coming days, government says → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwo79h/supersonic_rise_in_french_covid19_cases_in_coming/ | 15:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Omicron's impact here in San Diego~15% of medical staff out due to infections or isolation@ScrippsHealthsandiegouniontribune.com/news/health/st… “This is the first time... that I’m actually worried that we don’t have enough staff to take care of the [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1478741341538377729 | 15:57 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid: PCR not needed after positive lateral flow under new plans → https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59878823 | 16:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): The sensitivity to drugs is good; not novel.The use of Caco-2 cells (colonic epithelial cell line) is not great. But Omicron is possibly less able to inhibit IFN response. Another potential explanation for reduced pathogenicity? pic.twitter.com/3QY2q1dlw1 → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1478751260186664960 | 16:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: Hong Kong bans flights from U.S. and 7 other countries as omicron surges: Hong Kong authorities announced a two-week ban on flights from eight countries and held 2,500 passengers on a cruise ship for coronavirus testing as the city attempted to stem an omicron outbreak. → https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2022/01/05/1070546748/hong-kong-flight-ban | 16:55 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID19 Vaccine Tracker: valerie: Altimmune Inc: AdCOVID → https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/vaccines/75/ | 17:05 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.hamburg.de/contentblob/15757824/966a10e56faaee1d2e4824a0ec3891d9/data/2022-01-05-bwfgb-studie-download.pdf | 17:05 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.hamburg.de: Multi-organ assessment in mainly non-hospitalized individuals after SARS-CoV-2 infection. The Hamburg City Health Study COVID programme (Elina Larissa Petersen, Alina Goßling, Gerhard Adam, Martin [...] | 17:05 |
| de-facto | "Four hundred and forty-three mainly non-hospitalized individuals were examined in median 9.6 months after the first positive SARS-CoV-2 test and matched for age, sex, and education with 1328 controls from a population-based German cohort. We assessed pulmonary, cardiac, vascular, renal, and neurological status, as well as patient-related outcomes. " | 17:09 |
| de-facto | "Bodyplethysmography documented mildly lower total lung volume (regression coefficient −3.24, adjusted P = 0.014) and higher specific airway resistance (regression coefficient 8.11, adjusted P = 0.001) after SARS-CoV-2 infection. " | 17:09 |
| de-facto | "Cardiac assessment revealed slightly lower measures of left (regression coefficient for left ventricular ejection fraction on transthoracic echocardiography −0.93, adjusted P = 0.015) and right ventricular function and higher concentrations of cardiac biomarkers (factor 1.14 for high-sensitivity troponin, 1.41 for N-terminal pro-B-type natriuretic peptide, adjusted P ≤ 0.01) in post-SARS-CoV-2 patients compared with matched controls, but | 17:09 |
| de-facto | no significant differences in cardiac magnetic resonance imaging findings." | 17:09 |
| de-facto | "Sonographically non-compressible femoral veins, suggesting deep vein thrombosis, were substantially more frequent after SARS-CoV-2 infection (odds ratio 2.68, adjusted P , 0.001). Glomerular filtration rate (regression coefficient −2.35, adjusted P = 0.019) was lower in post-SARS-CoV-2 cases." | 17:09 |
| de-facto | "Relative brain volume, prevalence of cerebral microbleeds, and infarct residuals were similar, while the mean cortical thickness was higher in post-SARS-CoV-2 cases. Cognitive function was not impaired. Similarly, patient-related outcomes did not differ."! | 17:09 |
| de-facto | "Conclusion: Subjects who apparently recovered from mild to moderate SARS-CoV-2 infection show signs of subclinical multiorgan affection related to pulmonary, cardiac, thrombotic, and renal function without signs of structural brain damage, neurocognitive, or quality-of-life impairment. Respective screening may guide further patient management." | 17:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Efficacy of Oral Rinses for Inactivation of COVID-19 (MOR2) → https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05178173 | 17:14 |
| oerheks | de-facto, i have noticed organ problems too, kidneys recently | 17:16 |
| de-facto | what did you notice? | 17:17 |
| de-facto | and did your test turn out to be positive? | 17:17 |
| Timvde | de-facto: do you know if there's any research about long-term effects of COVID for vaccinated people? I'd expect them to be significantly less, but I'd feel better if that's confirmed by a trusted source | 17:17 |
| Timvde | So far I have only seen research regarding your odds of dying or being hospitalized | 17:17 |
| Timvde | But none talking about the effects of mild infections | 17:18 |
| de-facto | hmm good question, i dont know sources, but i would assume reduction similar to that of severe progressions etc | 17:18 |
| de-facto | also iirc there were some studies indicating lower rates for long-COVID in vaccinated breakthrough infections, was it 50% or such? | 17:18 |
| de-facto | breakthrough reduced by 50% compared to non-vaccinated infections? | 17:19 |
| de-facto | boosters may change that even more, idk | 17:19 |
| xx | de-facto: was that placebo-controlled? | 17:31 |
| xx | I'd expect the same number of people who weren't infected to exhibit similar trouble after ~10 months in a pandemic regime, due to e.g. less exercise, worse eating habits, ... | 17:32 |
| Timvde | xx: if I read the paper correctly, yes | 17:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Positive End Espiratory Pressure Trial in Coronavirus Disease 19 Treated With Continuous Positive Airway Pressure → https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05178160 | 17:34 |
| xx | I'll check out that paper then, thanks | 17:34 |
| aruns | Are N99 certified masks best for clinicians dealing with COVID-19 patients? | 17:41 |
| xx | aruns: consistently wearing properly-fitting masks is best | 17:41 |
| zad | 95 | 17:41 |
| xx | seeing clinicians take them off and put them on inbetween patients is horrifying but common | 17:42 |
| zad | well, it's common, because that is the protocol | 17:42 |
| aruns | zad: I thought N99 masks offered far greater protection than N95 masks. | 17:42 |
| zad | you don't wear the same PPE between 2 patient's rooms | 17:43 |
| aruns | Yup | 17:43 |
| aruns | https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52613399 | 17:43 |
| zad | never heard of 99, likely many N95s are not fitted or used well | 17:43 |
| aruns | Thus, N95 and N99 masks filter out 95% and 99% of particles respectively | 17:43 |
| xx | zad: they use the same mask... They leave patient room, take off mask to talk to nurse, then put it back on. | 17:43 |
| aruns | So N99 masks are better | 17:43 |
| xx | horrible stuff | 17:43 |
| aruns | In terms of particle filtration | 17:44 |
| zad | likely cause not enough PPE | 17:44 |
| zad | /too many isolation patients to be practical | 17:44 |
| xx | yup, likely. Horrible 2 years into the pandemic. | 17:46 |
| xx | aruns: in general, you'd want full-face masks that typically (by accident) exceed the ffp3/n99 standards | 17:48 |
| xx | with replaceable filters | 17:48 |
| de-facto | "We report a cross-sectional study to compare the organ-specific functions and structures assessed in a cohort of subjects with prior mild to moderate SARS-CoV-2 infection with matched subjects from an ongoing, prospective, population-based cohort study" | 17:51 |
| de-facto | xx, ^^ | 17:51 |
| xx | yeah I found the control in that article | 17:51 |
| xx | thanks | 17:51 |
| xx | it feels just like an interesting bit of trivia, because there's nothing actionable about it | 17:52 |
| xx | good to know that just like every other disease out there, covid statistically causes detectable but subclinical changes/damage in multiple organ systems, and people should keep an eye on it (but not rush to hospital to get tested because that's impossible at 300M infections in 2 years) | 17:54 |
| de-facto | to me the surprising result is that even mild progressions of COVID cause systemic organ damage of some kind | 17:55 |
| de-facto | not exactly good news imho | 17:56 |
| de-facto | no idea how that relates to Omicron though, its a bit different possibly | 17:57 |
| xx | no idea about omicron either, but it seems to produce more viral particles in other mucosal tissue too, so it could be much worse (but still fine, subclinical) | 17:57 |
| edcba | i bet most of the damages are repaired eventually ? | 17:57 |
| xx | edcba: gfr isn't | 17:57 |
| xx | (that's kidneys) | 17:58 |
| de-facto | it depends, if its microscopical vessel damage it may also be long lasting damage | 17:58 |
| de-facto | i mean that those long-COVID symptoms are not recovering quickly is a bit worrying imho | 17:59 |
| edcba | well we'll learn something thanks to them | 18:00 |
| summonner | a few organs do not repair | 18:10 |
| summonner | clarification of "repair" -> regenerate from damage sustained | 18:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: Coronavirus: German regions back shorter COVID-19 quarantine → https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-plans-to-ease-quarantine-rules/ | 18:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Josiah 'So Mild' Grindrod (@JT_Grindrod): Yeah but some dude on Twitter with a bunch of numbers after their name told me that flu and covid can't coexist and social distancing had nothing to do with flu going away last year so idk who to believe twitter.com/BNODesk/status… → https://twitter.com/JT_Grindrod/status/1478775457059196930 | 18:22 |
| LjL | de-facto: have you seen that couple articles indicating in the UK and somewhere in the US, excess deaths are now going up in a way not explained via COVID alone? It could be many things I guess but the prospect of it being long COVID starting to take its life toll seems the scariest to me... | 18:23 |
| LjL | [17:42] xx: seeing clinicians take them off and put them on inbetween patients is horrifying but common <- but... actually, at least when wasting a mask for each patient wasn't a ridiculous proposition, the usual guidelines were to put on a new mask before each patient... | 18:25 |
| * LjL has gone from "weird that virtually no one in the covid channel has actually had covid" to "I've lost track of who has had covid and who hasn't" | 18:27 | |
| xx | LjL: perhaps, but seeing the whole process is just weird, as if nobody ever taught them what's happening. No disinfecting hands before handling old mask, not disposing of it properly (touching it all over), not disinfecting hands before touching new mask... | 18:27 |
| Dredd | <finely[m]> "Got you beat at 37% 😬" <- Damn 😀 | 18:28 |
| Dredd | There's always next week | 18:28 |
| LjL | xx: the thing is when you keep doing the same thing over and over for months under pressure, most people do get an extent of carelessness. Which is also why I'm not entirely sure gain of function and such research is a good idea even in a BSL4 lab (which is apparently not the only type where it's taking place anyway) | 18:28 |
| xx | failures happen, but there are so many safeguards in BSL4 (and lower) that it extremely rarely leads to anything bad | 18:30 |
| xx | massive difference between a researcher who is paid to do things right and has to document every failure, and a an overworked doctor that's starting to believe nothing even helps and thus ignores best practices | 18:31 |
| xx | sure, things could be done better in BSL4 labs, usually at even greater costs, but it is hard to justify that additional costs | 18:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: COVID: Pre-departure tests and travel isolation scrapped in England → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwrumq/covid_predeparture_tests_and_travel_isolation/ | 18:32 |
| LjL | xx: harder than a pandemic's costs? | 18:36 |
| xx | LjL: I'm not able to answer that. | 18:41 |
| LjL | xx: pleading the fifth? | 18:41 |
| xx | nah. Just saying we can't start treating every pathogen that would require BSL4 as something that *will* end up causing the same costs to the world as coronavirus. | 18:42 |
| xx | maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see how anything would get done in research if that was the procedure | 18:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Study raises doubts about rapid Covid tests’ reliability in early days after infection: A new study raises significant doubts about whether at-home rapid antigen tests can detect the Omicron variant before infected people can [... want %more?] → https://www.statnews.com/2022/01/05/study-raises-doubts-about-rapid-covid-tests-reliability-in-early-days-after-infection/ | 18:42 |
| xx | we'd probably just destroy all pathogen samples instead | 18:42 |
| LjL | xx: I don't think gain of function is necessarily an unavoidable part of research though | 18:42 |
| xx | I have a different outlook of research - dangerous research is fine in my book | 18:43 |
| LjL | Color me shocked | 18:43 |
| xx | like, what's the worst that could happen? Human extinction? ;) | 18:44 |
| LjL | Mhm | 18:45 |
| LjL | xx: extra loudness airborne tinnitus | 18:45 |
| xx | well I support euthanasia, so no issue for me there | 18:46 |
| xx | if humans weren't assholes, it would be safe to have an euthanasia pill available in every vending machine | 18:48 |
| xx | but we can't have nice things because humans will misuse them | 18:48 |
| `St0ner | https://www.tmz.com/2022/01/05/canadian-party-flight-sunwing-airlines-cancun-investigation/ | 18:49 |
| Dredd | People with mental disorders might not benefit from suicide pills on every street corner | 18:50 |
| Arsanerit | nor do people without mental disorders | 18:50 |
| xx | hard to say, sometimes people know what's best for themselves and don't need to be told by someone else | 18:51 |
| xx | on the other hand, that's also the argumentation used by antivaxxers, so I'll grant it's not a great argument | 18:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: French minister: around 335,000 new Covid cases today in France, setting new record → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rws8rn/french_minister_around_335000_new_covid_cases/ | 18:52 |
| Arsanerit | Such pills would make homicide too easy. | 18:52 |
| xx | I think we'll be having new records every day this week | 18:52 |
| Arsanerit | Such pills would make homicides that look like suicide too easy. | 18:53 |
| xx | those 2M/day yesterday were just the start | 18:53 |
| LjL | 2 million was worldwide, right, not US? | 18:53 |
| xx | Arsanerit: that's why I said we can't have that because humans are assholes | 18:53 |
| Arsanerit | I think it was US? | 18:53 |
| xx | LjL: worldwide | 18:53 |
| Arsanerit | Oh. | 18:53 |
| Arsanerit | %cases USA | 18:53 |
| LjL | 1 million was US afaik | 18:53 |
| Brainstorm | Arsanerit: United States has had 57.1 million confirmed cases (17.3% of all people) and 848885 deaths (1.5% of cases; 1 in 388 people) as of a day ago. 817.7 million tests were done (7.0% positive). 243.5 million were vaccinated (73.9%). +58397855 cases, +850608 deaths, +243527564 vaccines, +822606861 tests since 20 hours ago. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=United%20States&legacy=no | 18:53 |
| Brainstorm | Arsanerit: If you know of an official or otherwise good site for data about United States, with a reasonably short URL, please %tell LjL about it. | 18:53 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, the case updates aren't working | 18:53 |
| Arsanerit | oh ok | 18:54 |
| LjL | (or at least, they're working in steps a bit too big) | 18:54 |
| Arsanerit | at some point number of confirmed cases may become more than 100% of all people | 18:54 |
| Arsanerit | is that of all people alive now or of all people alive at the start of the pandemic? | 18:54 |
| LjL | at that point my bot will be resting in pieces | 18:54 |
| Arsanerit | %cases Gibraltar | 18:55 |
| Brainstorm | Arsanerit: Gibraltar has had 9059 confirmed cases (26.9% of all people) and 100 deaths (1.1% of cases; 1 in 337 people) as of a day ago. 453215 tests were done (2.0% positive). 41173 were vaccinated (122.2%). +9297 cases, +100 deaths, +41173 vaccines, +455507 tests since 20 hours ago. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Gibraltar&legacy=no | 18:55 |
| Brainstorm | Arsanerit: If you know of an official or otherwise good site for data about Gibraltar, with a reasonably short URL, please %tell LjL about it. | 18:55 |
| Arsanerit | 122% vaccinated is not bad | 18:55 |
| LjL | they vaccinated foreigners too | 18:55 |
| LjL | %title https://twitter.com/fitterhappierAJ/status/1478736878429896707 de-facto | 19:06 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From twitter.com: Anthony J Leonardi, PhD, MS (@fitterhappierAJ): "Wow. 80 percent of these people had T cells in the brain. 0 percent of people have T cells in the brain of LETHAL cases of the flu" | nitter | 19:06 |
| LjL | %title https://twitter.com/brandonhicks/status/1478761136346615818 uhm, flu, how much does anywhere sequence flu as opposed to proxy it by flu-like illnesses? | 19:09 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, the URL could not be loaded | 19:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Theo Sanderson (@theosanderson): So seems like it's more about sample type than test method, and the graph would look quite different with nasal PCRs. But still matters! Would be interesting to know what would happen for nose/throat LFDs. [3/3] → https://twitter.com/theosanderson/status/1478788673705594885 | 19:11 |
| de-facto | LjL, nope have not seen articles about increased mortality rates in US, do we have time series for that? | 19:12 |
| de-facto | if so maybe we could relate incidence or variants? | 19:12 |
| LjL | de-facto, https://archive.fo/tZfTP ( https://www.ft.com/content/05e32f95-0e7e-4d2a-b408-6ec6035dea8e ) and https://archive.is/VIzFv ( https://www.thecentersquare.com/indiana/indiana-life-insurance-ceo-says-deaths-are-up-40-among-people-ages-18-64/article_71473b12-6b1e-11ec-8641-5b2c06725e2c.html ) | 19:15 |
| LjL | the former has a graph for the UK but the source isn't very clearly specified | 19:15 |
| LjL | the latter is just an anecdote but an unsettling one | 19:16 |
| de-facto | hmm cant read that ft | 19:17 |
| LjL | not even with archive? | 19:18 |
| de-facto | ok now it works, weird | 19:20 |
| LjL | i'm not sure if this is the most up-to-date version of the article | 19:21 |
| LjL | i can't load the original now either (i could the other day) | 19:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: COVID-19 Vaccination and Breakthrough Infections in Patients with Cancer → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwszlq/covid19_vaccination_and_breakthrough_infections/ | 19:21 |
| LjL | maybe i have it on zotero | 19:21 |
| LjL | de-facto, but meanwhile before i forget in looking at other stuff on zotero, also https://translational-medicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12967-021-03184-8 | 19:22 |
| LjL | which i think if people who've had COVID have autoantibodies all over the place, then maybe we can explain excess deaths :| | 19:22 |
| de-facto | maybe it has to do with 1) non-diagnosed COVID related health issues 2) healthcare system resources not being available to prevent serious diseases due to them being maxed out by COVID | 19:22 |
| de-facto | yeah autoantibodies are a serious issue indeed | 19:23 |
| de-facto | "Paul Hunter, professor in medicine at Norwich Medical School, said he had initially suspected the excess deaths in recent months might have been caused by a return of respiratory viruses, such as flu, but data suggest that cardiovascular disease and strokes were the most prominent conditions contributing to the unexpectedly high mortality levels." | 19:27 |
| de-facto | from the ft post about UK excess deaths | 19:27 |
| LjL | yes | 19:28 |
| LjL | i remember that paragraph and i think it was the one that struck me the most | 19:28 |
| LjL | (well, at least to an extent, since apparently i remember it back only now that you point it out :P) | 19:28 |
| LjL | but that was the one that made me go "uh-oh is this long covid..." | 19:28 |
| Tuvix | It'd be interesting to see an analysis if the excess deaths not attributed to COVID were in the expected mix of vaccinated vs unvaccinated for the relevant population. | 19:29 |
| LjL | Tuvix, but do it first, and tell the anti-vax only later, because we know what they'd think of this :P | 19:29 |
| Tuvix | As in: could people who (may have) caught COVID without vaccination be experiencing some other, yet unkown effects that cause a higher rate of unexpected death from "other" causes. | 19:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: Virus leaves antibodies that may attack healthy tissues; B cell antibodies weakened, not defeated by Omicron: Type Newspaper Article URL https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-science-idCAKBN2JD1CF Publication Reuters Date 2022-01-04T05:21:15Z Section Top News Accessed [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/H5374FJC | 19:31 |
| Tuvix | Sadly, the people still unconvinced by science are probably not going to be swayed by another piece of science. btw, I did update that album I put together using the data through mid-Oct (so, no Omicron info) that shows the vaccination benefit more clearly across all age-groups in the US: https://imgur.com/a/Lm9sdzR | 19:31 |
| LjL | Tuvix, but i mean they'd specifically blame the vaccines for this, as they were already telling me i'd be dead in 2023 due to taking the vaccine... heart issues are currently something associated with mRNA vaccines so they'd associate them very quickly. hence let's get data on how it's not about being vaccinated *first* before they notice | 19:32 |
| Tuvix | For instance, during the summer delta peak here in the US, the 12-17 year old group can be shown about 43x less likely to be hospitalized with vaccination than their unvaccinated counterparts. Yes, the incidence rate is lower for them, but that's a huge outcome difference. | 19:33 |
| Tuvix | Erm, sorry, 43x less likely of dying. | 19:33 |
| LjL | it's a virus that never ceases to amaze. you barely have time to say "it doesn't affect young people too much", and you get data that it does now | 19:35 |
| LjL | and by amaze i mean depress | 19:35 |
| Tuvix | It's been good at doing both this last 25 months. | 19:36 |
| LjL | 25 months -.- | 19:38 |
| de-facto | "The findings, published in Nature, show that scientists “have to start looking at mutations outside the spike,” which has so far been the main focus of vaccines and antibody drugs, said Nevan Krogan of the University of California, San Francisco." | 19:45 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-science-idCAKBN2JD1CF <-- from the article LjL just added to zotero | 19:46 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.reuters.com: Virus leaves antibodies that may attack healthy tissues; B cell antibodies weakened, not defeated by Omicron | Reuters | 19:46 |
| de-facto | thats what i keep saying long time ago, its not only the s-protein, the other crucial steps in replication cycle and immune evasion are just as important if not even more important | 19:47 |
| de-facto | "Studying the Alpha variant, his team found a mutation at a non-spike site that causes infected cells to ramp up their production of a protein called Orf9B. Orf9b in turn disables a protein called TOM70 that cells use to send signals to the immune system. With higher levels of Orf9B disabling TOM70, the immune system does not respond as well and the virus can better evade detection, the researchers said." | 19:48 |
| Tuvix | So, SciFi: Romulan cloaking starships. Reality: immune-cloaking viruses. | 19:50 |
| LjL | i added it because i recalled i got that paper from another article and i try to add both the papers and the articles i get them from lately, because i find that useful, but i forgot to do that | 19:54 |
| LjL | also, in mindblowing absurd things today: | 19:55 |
| LjL | i'm being told by someone from greece that universities will require exams in person this term, AND even people positive with COVID won't be allowed to take repeat exams | 19:55 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: Rapid evidence review to inform safe return to campus in the context of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/rwttjn/rapid_evidence_review_to_inform_safe_return_to/ | 20:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Theo Sanderson (@theosanderson): Are all UK gov LFTs nasal only now? We could very quickly establish evidence as to whether swabbing throats with the existing kits would subsantially help given the will to. twitter.com/michaelmina_la… → https://twitter.com/theosanderson/status/1478802391952674819 | 20:10 |
| xx | 330k cases france... | 20:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Shops advised to remove Genrui brand antigen kits → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwucdr/shops_advised_to_remove_genrui_brand_antigen_kits/ | 20:29 |
| Tuvix | LjL: It might just be a difference in the population figures used, but the JHU mortality value vs. the bot's mortality incidence have slightly different values (and I think JHU updates daily.) JHU says 252.90/100k currently, or 1:395.4 , while the bot had 1:388 (aka 257.7/100k) | 20:35 |
| LjL | Tuvix, i don't know, the bot is honestly all messed up at the moment, i've been trying to figure out why it's not posting case updates for... a few days, with no success so far | 20:39 |
| LjL | i think it's still getting data, but i'm trying to figure out what data exactly it's getting | 20:40 |
| LjL | %cases us | 20:40 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: United States has had 57.1 million confirmed cases (17.3% of all people) and 848885 deaths (1.5% of cases; 1 in 388 people) as of a day ago. 817.7 million tests were done (7.0% positive). 243.5 million were vaccinated (73.9%). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=United%20States&legacy=no | 20:40 |
| LjL | google tells me 828k deaths, not 849k | 20:40 |
| LjL | but Covidly has 849k | 20:41 |
| Tuvix | Yea, CDC says 825k, JHU 831k, both notably lower than 849k. | 20:41 |
| LjL | well, both also notably different from each other though :P | 20:42 |
| LjL | Tuvix, it's not on my bot's end at least, though if you google "848885 deaths" you'll find a few hits | 20:43 |
| LjL | where the discrepancy originally comes from... beats me :| | 20:43 |
| * LjL ping de-facto | 20:43 | |
| Tuvix | Yea, I think JHU somehow has faster updates than what gets pushed to the CDC, but I'm not exactly sure why. It could be something as simple as CDC lagging behind realtime to avoid corrections causing jumps. | 20:43 |
| Tuvix | And yea, I wasn't so much saying the bot is itself wrong, but noting the varied numbers. At ~1300 deaths or so per day (give or take as the average changes) those are some days apart in terms of snapshots. | 20:46 |
| LjL | Tuvix, do you have historical data handy from JHU or CDC? | 20:46 |
| LjL | there is one jump in recent days here https://covidly.com/graph?country=United%20States&state=#total and another earlier in september | 20:46 |
| LjL | (you'll have to unselect anything that isn't "Deaths" to see it in the deaths) | 20:47 |
| Tuvix | JHU has this graph, but even the "Deaths" chart on graph #2 won't give an exact date, just an exact _number_ corresponding to whatever date is under the cursor. | 20:47 |
| Tuvix | Oh, you can zoom in on that chart to get more accuracy. | 20:48 |
| LjL | Tuvix, Covidly counts 14265 deaths on January 2, which seems unlikely | 20:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: NJ COVID hospitalizations double in 10 days, and new daily case record set at over 31,000 → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwutmz/nj_covid_hospitalizations_double_in_10_days_and/ | 20:48 |
| LjL | i mean just on that day | 20:48 |
| LjL | and there doesn't seem to be a lack of recorded deaths in the previous days to account for that spike | 20:49 |
| Tuvix | Yea, well under 2k from JHU's data after zooming in for that same timeline. | 20:49 |
| Tuvix | I suspect they're doing something vastly different than CDC/JHU are. Those are close enough to make me suspect just a point-in-time or delay-for-reporting-feeders to be the cause. | 20:49 |
| LjL | 848885−14265 = 834620 which is... still higher... but a lot closer to JHU | 20:50 |
| LjL | Tuvix, well, either the JHU or the CDC are an upstream to Covidly | 20:50 |
| LjL | Covidly aggregates data from many sources and it has a tendency not to necessarily respect the "daily counts" from official sources | 20:51 |
| LjL | but usually, the tally would check out | 20:51 |
| Tuvix | I mean, if not for missing days or some kind of correction applied on that date, 14265 is off by something like an order of magnitude… | 20:51 |
| LjL | Tuvix, well there's worse, look at 18 September here (again selecting Deaths, i can't do it from the URL) | 20:52 |
| LjL | https://covidly.com/graph?country=United%20States&time=183#new | 20:52 |
| LjL | but at least, there are "empty" days around that one, explaining it a little (partially, though, seems still a lot higher than the days it might account for) | 20:52 |
| Tuvix | Similar big spike in cases at the same time too on that chart. | 20:53 |
| mrdata | debunking malone https://youtu.be/xjszVOfG_wo | 20:53 |
| Tuvix | LjL: If you change the tab at the top to "Total" instead of "new" that 18-sept date corresponds to a huge vertical spike that doesn't seem to follow the normal curve trends. | 20:55 |
| LjL | Tuvix, yes, and so does the more recent one, it's just smaller | 20:55 |
| Tuvix | Almost strikes me as some kind of retro-active correction was the intent, but normally you'd just go and correct any prior dates that had bad numbers for something like that. | 20:55 |
| Tuvix | And still doesn't explain the 5-figure difference to other sources. | 20:55 |
| LjL | Tuvix, correcting prior data is not always done, because it comes with its own trouble for downstream data users | 20:56 |
| LjL | some countries do it and some don't, in their own official data | 20:56 |
| Tuvix | Yea, or mark a point of "prospective" data that's subject to change before it's frozen. | 20:57 |
| Tuvix | The state here has that for either 1 or 2 weeks while they await all the hospitals and such to report info on beds, patients, cases, & deaths. | 20:57 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Trial by pandemic: In their initiation as doctors, they face the worst health care crisis in a century → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwv0ye/trial_by_pandemic_in_their_initiation_as_doctors/ | 20:58 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Omicron's feeble attack on the lungs could make it less dangerous → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwvbqm/omicrons_feeble_attack_on_the_lungs_could_make_it/ | 21:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Steve Miller (@SteveMillerOC): “VSD has administered 431,485 Pfizer doses to children aged 5-11 years.”“In the VSD there have been no safety signals among 5-11 year olds.” pic.twitter.com/RahoaR2SIK → https://twitter.com/SteveMillerOC/status/1478818425598189568 | 21:18 |
| de-facto | .title https://imgur.com/a/B1QcpRr https://i.imgur.com/0aPz4ho.jpeg <-- seems that Germany shows first signs of Omicron peak establishing (weekly incidence of positive tested per 100k citizens) | 21:25 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From imgur.com: COVID Germany: Weekly Incidence per 100k citizens - Album on Imgur | 21:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Italy to make COVID-19 jab mandatory for those over 50 → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwvrm2/italy_to_make_covid19_jab_mandatory_for_those/ | 21:27 |
| LjL | are we? | 21:28 |
| azizLIGHT[m] | Is there a way to deliver oxygenated blood to a body in lieu of using a ventilatpr | 21:31 |
| de-facto | yes extracoporal blood oxygenation | 21:35 |
| de-facto | .title https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extracorporeal_membrane_oxygenation | 21:35 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From en.wikipedia.org: Extracorporeal membrane oxygenation - Wikipedia | 21:35 |
| de-facto | its for the extremely sick, if their lungs got fucked up by COVID so bad that even no ventilator is able to oxygenate their blood sufficiently | 21:36 |
| de-facto | the very last measure before fatal outcome | 21:37 |
| de-facto | kind of an "artificial lung" | 21:37 |
| oerheks | or when it hits your kidneys, heart or diaphragm | 21:37 |
| de-facto | afaik some pregnant women needed that because they got higher probability for really severe progression | 21:38 |
| azizLIGHT[m] | I see, so it isn't effective in replacing lung function then? | 21:39 |
| azizLIGHT[m] | If its last resort | 21:39 |
| critr | i think i'd rather forego extreme measures like ventilation and beyond. | 21:39 |
| Tuvix | People are only put on those measures when the vitals are so down in the toilet there aren't really any better options. | 21:40 |
| critr | imo death is a better option. | 21:40 |
| azizLIGHT[m] | Why wouldn't these options be considered earlier? | 21:41 |
| critr | ventilation can do serious damage. | 21:41 |
| Tuvix | Obviously the best way to avoid that is to avoid severe cases of COVID in the first place. The irony once again being that the unvaccinated are putting themselves at much great risk of those outcomes from the virus, and also the "but I can't breathe in my mask" nonsense. Last I checked, serious COVID is much, *much* worse than the mild inconvenience of a good mask. | 21:41 |
| Tuvix | Yea, having a machine breathe for you is no small thing, and it often requires patients be put into a medically-induced coma. | 21:42 |
| Tuvix | None of this is something you "want." | 21:42 |
| LjL | <azizLIGHT[m]> Why wouldn't these options be considered earlier? ← same reason as you don't put someone on ventilation when they get a small flu "just in case it gets worse" | 21:42 |
| LjL | meaning: a number of reasons, primarily that it completely flouts "do no harm", as subtle and nuanced as "do no harm" can be in practice | 21:42 |
| LjL | also ECMO is a rare resource | 21:43 |
| azizLIGHT[m] | Interesting, thanks for teaching me things I am ignorant of | 21:43 |
| critr | note that most medical doctors turn down extreme measures when personally fatally ill. | 21:45 |
| azizLIGHT[m] | Could ECMO be improved to the point where its not so extreme? | 21:47 |
| LjL | i don't know, but you're stopping using some of a patient's fundamental organ and using machines in their place | 21:47 |
| LjL | it feels to me like to be much less extreme, you'd have to advance medicine in a qualitative way and not just incrementally | 21:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Passengers on Sunwing party plane could face jail time, thousands in fines → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rww320/passengers_on_sunwing_party_plane_could_face_jail/ | 21:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Most people are still wearing cloth masks. Here's why that's a problem with omicron → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwwc3c/most_people_are_still_wearing_cloth_masks_heres/ | 21:57 |
| azizLIGHT[m] | How can I know my reused N95 mask still has its electrostatic charge? | 22:00 |
| Tuvix | azizLIGHT[m]: Ultimately it'll loose the charge in the layers that allow the high capture-rate of fine particles, but short of lab equipment to meausre it, there's not really an end-user way to know for sure. The CDC has some guidance intended for medical professionals on mask re-use that has some info on suggested re-use limits though: | 22:03 |
| Tuvix | https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/ppe-strategy/decontamination-reuse-respirators.html | 22:03 |
| Tuvix | Drying it out between uses is probably one of the biggest things you want to do, since you don't want the mosture to remain. Among other things, that means storing it in a breathable environment such as a paper bag instead of a sealed container (no plastic food containers or zip-style plastic bags, for instance) | 22:04 |
| Tuvix | Your next step up would be a mask with similar (or better) filtration with replacable masks in the airflow inlet/outlets, but those are more expensive, harder to find, and require periodic filter replacements. | 22:05 |
| oerheks | or just use 1 per month | 22:06 |
| Tuvix | There's a section on the page I linked that indicates what limits reuse, including: Fit, Filtration performance, Contamination and soiling, & Damage. | 22:06 |
| Tuvix | You can't really evaluate the filtration performance yourself, so yea, a time-based approach based on how often you wear yours (hours per week on average) will give you a ballpark idea of replacement time you should aim for. | 22:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: Lack of high school education predicts vaccine hesitancy: Mary Van Beusekom | News Writer | CIDRAP News Jan 05, 2022 In another study, researchers found that COVID-19 vaccine incentives didn't increase vaccine uptake. → https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/01/lack-high-school-education-predicts-vaccine-hesitancy | 22:07 |
| Tuvix | If you're wearing it for 4 hours daily, you'll need to be replacing the mask a lot more often than someone who mostly works and stays at home but needs a mask to do errands. | 22:08 |
| Tuvix | CDC has this phrase too on that page that's directly relevant: "N95 FFR performance will decrease as the number of hours and number of donnings and doffings increase." | 22:08 |
| Tuvix | The fit is importnat, since the filtration level assumes the mask remains effective, which includes not just the filter, but how well it fits and is tested for seals each time you put it on. | 22:09 |
| Tuvix | "… Repeated donning and doffing will result in the straps no longer being able to generate enough force to create a tight seal with the face. The resulting poor seal will allow unfiltered air to enter the N95 FFR and into the wearer’s breathing zone." | 22:10 |
| Tuvix | Of course, that also means out of the mask as well, which will impact others around you should you be contagious. | 22:10 |
| Tuvix | "CDC recommends limiting the number of donnings for an N95 FFR to no more than five per device. It may be possible to don some models of FFRs more than five times. […] fit performance decreased over multiple, consecutive donnings […]" | 22:11 |
| azizLIGHT[m] | Thanks | 22:12 |
| Tuvix | Obviously non-medical users can probably go more than 5, but just be aware that in a *heathcare* setting, that's not recommended due to studies showing a loss of performance. For average people in low-to-mild risk situations, that's probably still fine. | 22:12 |
| azizLIGHT[m] | I dont know how to tell my loved ones their facial hair isnt exactly conducive to good fit | 22:12 |
| Tuvix | Yea, in the US that's something OSHA has guidance on, and workers in fields that are required to wear them for safety (healthcare, or those working with chemicals and so on) can't have facial hair, or need to use a more full-protection mask like you'd see worn as part of hazzard suits. | 22:13 |
| Tuvix | Here again, a KN95 or N95 style mask on top of a beard may be better than no mask at all, but it's not going to be as effective. | 22:14 |
| azizLIGHT[m] | I read that its basically renders the seal useless to have facial hair, even a light beard | 22:14 |
| Tuvix | "The Respiratory Protection standard, paragraph 29 CFR 1910.134(g)(1)(i)(A), states that respirators shall not be worn when facial hair comes between the sealing surface of the facepiece and the face or that interferes with valve function. Facial hair is allowed as long as it does not protrude under the respirator seal, or extend far enough to interfere with the device's valve function." | 22:15 |
| Tuvix | So, basically that means a short mustache, sideburn, or small goatees may be allowed so long as it doesn't interfere with the fit, but yea, beards are a problem if you require a good fit and seal of an N95 style mask. | 22:16 |
| Tuvix | Reference: https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/2016-05-09 | 22:16 |
| azizLIGHT[m] | Dont remember where i saw this but, some suggested mitigation using, cant remember, but want to say petroleum jelly. Does that make any sense | 22:16 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Covid-19 live updates: Omicron appears to be less severe, Fauci says, but transmissibility could cause strain → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwwqu1/covid19_live_updates_omicron_appears_to_be_less/ | 22:17 |
| Tuvix | It doens't really make any sense to me; even if it did work, who wants to coat their beard-hair with jelly each time *and* on top of that do a secure fit test to check for leaks? It sounds bogus to me, and I'm sure you won't find that guidance anywhere offical, like government regulations. | 22:18 |
| xx | men should just be clean-shaven | 22:18 |
| xx | women too I guess | 22:18 |
| xx | people with beards -> people without beards | 22:18 |
| azizLIGHT[m] | Tuvix: Yeah... it doesn't seem practical | 22:19 |
| xx | is that a 5th element reference? | 22:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Succinct @nature summary of what these 7 reports meannature.com/articles/d4158…with insights from @msdiamondlab and @GuptaR_lab + note @odomjohnlab's perspective on children, that Omicron's higher load in upper airway may prove to be a liability pic.twitter.com/2IiwCz4Ig1 → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1478839237713620992 | 22:26 |
| sdfgsdfg | alright, I knew this would happen when some ministers said "We will check if Djokovic's medical exemptions are legit" | 22:36 |
| sdfgsdfg | after being held and questioned for about 6 hours, he's kicked out of australia. His father is threatening to protest it on streets | 22:38 |
| Tuvix | It's a stupid stunt by someone in a position to potentially influence a large number of people, or at least that's my take. | 22:45 |
| Tuvix | (the refusal to get vaccinated, not the country's response) | 22:45 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: Unionized Starbucks workers walk out in Buffalo, citing safety worries over COVID: Employees of a Starbucks store in upstate New York who voted to unionize last month walked off the job, saying they lacked the staff and resources to work safely amid [... want %more?] → https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2022/01/05/1070711691/starbucks-union-buffalo-walkout | 22:46 |
| critr | just line your mask with a paper towel moistened with everclear. | 22:54 |
| LjL | https://www-governo-it.translate.goog/it/articolo/comunicato-stampa-del-consiglio-dei-ministri-n-55/18944?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=it | 22:55 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Trevor Bedford (@trvrb): So far, the overall trajectory of Omicron across states is remarkably consistent with similar initial epidemic growth rates. Some states are just more ahead and others more behind on the same curve based on initial seeding patterns near the beginning of Dec. 11/12 [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/trvrb/status/1478845248109301763 | 22:55 |
| LjL | Vaccination obligation | 22:56 |
| LjL | The text introduces the vaccination obligation for all those who have reached the age of 50. For public and private workers aged 50, the Enhanced Green Pass will be required for access to the workplace starting from February 15th. | 22:56 |
| sdfgsdfg | exactly Tuvix, it was weird. Happy to see the proper response by PM :D | 22:57 |
| sdfgsdfg | LjL that looks like mandatory vax in Italy, are the boosters also mandatory ? | 22:58 |
| Tuvix | Ah, just looked into the cause there; it wasn't the tournament paperwork, but his visa/entry paperwork that was not handled properly. | 22:58 |
| Tuvix | Apparently the exemption for the tennis match is a "bind review" where a panel looks over unvaccinated player's applications but doesn't know who the player is when making the determination; *that* was what had been permitted, to the outrage of many locals given the lockdowns .au has had their own citizens face. | 22:59 |
| Tuvix | Then he made some mistake (I'm unclear what exactly) on the visa filing. | 22:59 |
| sdfgsdfg | by the way - it's great news that italy's vax obligation is for those aged 50 and above | 23:01 |
| sdfgsdfg | not sustainable in the long run to vaccinate the entire planet population instead of just the vulnerable anyway, | 23:02 |
| LjL | sdfgsdfg, i don't know, it's just been decided officially, i'll have to see what the actual law says, that will likely be available only tomorrow | 23:03 |
| LjL | it also doesn't specify the fines on this one | 23:03 |
| LjL | i don't think the booster will be mandatory though | 23:03 |
| LjL | (for not at least) | 23:03 |
| critr | if you have ten vaccinated people and ten unvaccinated people, there is going to be a lot more live virus in the unvaccinated group. that gives the virus a higher chance of mutating in the unvaccinated group. then the mutated virus has a good chance of infecting the vaccinated group, too. so everyone needs to be vaccinated for the best chance of stopping the virus. | 23:04 |
| sdfgsdfg | https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o5 | 23:07 |
| sdfgsdfg | .title | 23:07 |
| Brainstorm | sdfgsdfg: From www.bmj.com: Covid-19: Fact check—how many patients in hospital are unvaccinated? | The BMJ | 23:07 |
| Arsanerit | critr: what if the vaccinated people have more contacts because they are (a) less careful (risk compenstation), and (b) allowed to do more stuff than the unvaccinated people? | 23:08 |
| Arsanerit | Fortunately Germany has stopped lifting mask and distancing mandates in locations open only to vaccinated people. | 23:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Italy made covid vaccine mandatory for everyone over 50 years old → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rwxuqv/italy_made_covid_vaccine_mandatory_for_everyone/ | 23:15 |
| ecks | I mean (a) seems unlikely, at this point anyone who isn't vaccinated is certainly not being particularly careful | 23:17 |
| Tuvix | sdfgsdfg: Be very careful looking at just raw numbers; let's say 99.9% of an entier public was vaccinated; some brekathrough cases may be severe enough to require hospitalization or ICU beds, especially in vulnerable populations. Read more into relative rates of incidence, or conversely, the number in a region hospitalized relative to the vaccinated/unvaccinated population in that region. | 23:22 |
| Tuvix | If someone dies of cold and exposure while wearing a coat, you don't say that coats cause death. If you give a population coats who may not have them so they can survive winter, some might die anyway, but fewer than if you had left them with insufficient clothing. | 23:23 |
| Tuvix | Here's the tl;dr in that linked article: "Further analysis by the agency has concluded that unvaccinated adults are as much as eight times more likely to be admitted to hospital than those who have been vaccinated and that booster doses are 88% effective at preventing hospital admission." | 23:26 |
| Jigsy | Heh. | 23:29 |
| Jigsy | My step-sister tested positive. | 23:29 |
| Jigsy | Also my neighbor. | 23:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from Contagion Live: CDC Committee Recommends Pfizer-BioNTech Boosters for 12-17 Year Olds: The Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) voted yes to a third shot of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine in this pediatric population. → https://www.contagionlive.com/view/cdc-committee-recommends-pfizer-biontech-boosters-for-12-17-year-olds | 23:34 |
| Dredd | Jigsy: ☹️ | 23:39 |
| Dredd | The covies are coming for you | 23:40 |
| Jigsy | They'll never take me alive! | 23:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: White House urges schools to stay open: Stephanie Soucheray | News Reporter | CIDRAP News Jan 05, 2022 In a breaking development today, the CDC's vaccine advisory group expanded its booster recommendation to kids as young as 12. → https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/01/white-house-urges-schools-stay-open | 23:43 |
| Dredd | Lets all hope these scary brain effects in covid are more exceptions than the rule | 23:44 |
| critr | more research is needed, but long term mental and physical damage seem to be not uncommon. | 23:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: CDC advisers recommend teens 12 to 17 should receive a Covid-19 booster shot: An expert panel that advises the CDC on vaccines voted overwhelmingly on Wednesday to recommend that children aged 12 to 17 should get a Covid-19 booster shot. → https://www.statnews.com/2022/01/05/cdc-advisers-recommend-teens-should-receive-covid-booster/ | 23:53 |
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