| eyalroz | Hello devuaners, | 09:05 |
|---|---|---|
| eyalroz | I wanted to draw your attention to a kind of error message I am often seeing on my syste, | 09:06 |
| eyalroz | system*, namely: dconf-CRITICAL **: 1.2.3.4: unable to create file '/run/user/1000/dconf/user': Permission denied. dconf will not work properly | 09:06 |
| eyalroz | (actually, not 1.2.3.4, it's a timestamp) | 09:06 |
| gnarface | what log are you seeing that in? | 09:07 |
| eyalroz | gnarface: I'm seeing it on my console, when running all sorts of apps, e.g. GNOME ones. | 09:07 |
| eyalroz | and, | 09:07 |
| eyalroz | I've been told: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/685626/ | 09:08 |
| gnarface | hmm, you mix any packages in from other distros? like debian, or a repo for debian packages? | 09:08 |
| eyalroz | that the directory is something that systemd creates when you login | 09:08 |
| gnarface | yea, i'm not seeing /run/user here | 09:08 |
| eyalroz | gnarface: Generally no, but | 09:08 |
| gnarface | does look suspicious | 09:08 |
| gnarface | but i'm also not using gnome | 09:08 |
| gnarface | though i am using a lot of gtk stuff... | 09:09 |
| onefang | I do recall seeing that issue before, and I do have /run/usr | 09:09 |
| onefang | Er /run/user | 09:09 |
| eyalroz | I have some single-app apt repositories defined which aren't Devuan-specific, | 09:09 |
| eyalroz | and - debian-multimedia | 09:10 |
| onefang | Owned by root, permissions drwxr-xr-x | 09:10 |
| eyalroz | I have /run/user/ just like yours | 09:11 |
| gnarface | hmm, well i wonder if you've got a default build flag on in one of those packages that shouldn't be on for devuan, but statistically speaking, deb-multimedia (they were sued to have to stop calling it debian-multimedia, did you know?) is a likely culprit too | 09:11 |
| eyalroz | and I even have /run/user/1000 | 09:11 |
| gnarface | though here i'm not even using a graphical login so that may also be related to the difference | 09:11 |
| gnarface | and i'm on daedalus | 09:11 |
| eyalroz | owned by myself and with permissions 700 | 09:11 |
| eyalroz | me too, daedalus | 09:12 |
| onefang | And /run/user/1000/dconf/user is just -rw------- | 09:12 |
| eyalroz | and I also use a graphical login | 09:12 |
| eyalroz | and so is my /run/user/1000/dconf | 09:13 |
| eyalroz | but | 09:13 |
| onefang | And yes I have what used to be called debian-multimedia as well. | 09:13 |
| eyalroz | /run/user/1000/dconf/user is owned by root (with permissions 600) | 09:13 |
| onefang | That's likely the problem. | 09:13 |
| onefang | Think that's what went wrong with mine to. | 09:14 |
| gnarface | hmm, a system here with a graphical login does indeed have /run/user/1000, and i'm not seeing that error anywhere but it's also a old beowulf install | 09:14 |
| eyalroz | Now, I realize you might be able to say "If you played nice and only used devuan repos etc. then you wouldn't have this problem". But I believe that Devuan should be a little more "robust" in catering to these situations, because: | 09:14 |
| eyalroz | 1. It's inconvenient for me personally so I'm biased :-P | 09:15 |
| onefang | Mines chimaera, and I only saw that problem once. Fixing up ownership and permissions solved it I think | 09:15 |
| eyalroz | 2. Without this robustness, people are under stricter limitations when using Devuan compared to Debian, | 09:15 |
| eyalroz | and that hurts people's impression of Devuan. | 09:16 |
| onefang | On the other hand /run is tmpfs, so gets recreated on boot. | 09:16 |
| gnarface | yea, on the beowulf system, /run/user/1000/dconf/user is 0600, owned by that user not root | 09:16 |
| onefang | Ah /run/user/1000 is a separate tmpfs mount. | 09:16 |
| eyalroz | I wonder why the root-owned file is created though | 09:17 |
| eyalroz | I thought perhaps going su does this somehow | 09:17 |
| eyalroz | Anyway, I wonder if there couldn't be some mechanism in the devuan-specific packages which, at some point "fixes" this. | 09:18 |
| onefang | As I said, I only saw the problem once, it's been fixed since. | 09:19 |
| eyalroz | onefang: I had this multiple times in the past, something seems to bring it back... | 09:35 |
| gnarface | it couldn't be a udev rule, could it? | 09:49 |
| eyalroz | gnarface: I don't know - could it? | 10:38 |
| eyalroz | I'm not knowledgeable about udev I'm afraid | 10:39 |
| gnarface | well, theoretically it definitely could be, but what i'm not clear on is why udev would have anything to do with this, since it's usually just about devices | 10:56 |
| gnarface | but... due to the way systemd handles permissions, it is the basic type of error i've had to create extra udev rules for in the past | 10:57 |
| gnarface | basic pattern goes like: 1) something updates or is added to debian, works fine 2) same thing fails with permission error in devuan because they just left everything owned by root cause systemd doesn't care about permissions | 10:58 |
| gnarface | but if it's not udev maybe it's something that acts as a similar type of manager for this /run/users directory? | 11:00 |
| gnarface | er, /run/user/ | 11:00 |
| gnarface | maybe even on debian, the first login corrects the permission so nobody noticed | 11:03 |
| tom-1 | Hello . I would be grateful for advice. Please tell me why in the script i need to specify #! /sbin/openrc-run instead of #! /bin/sh for it to work? I looked at the scripts in the /etc/init.d directory, #! /bin/sh is indicated everywhere | 11:49 |
| sixwheeledbeast | It's the interpreter for openrc scripts | 11:59 |
| tom-1 | sixwheeledbeast: Hello. Thanks a lot for the explanation 🤝 | 12:03 |
| sixwheeledbeast | tom-1: https://github.com/OpenRC/openrc/blob/master/service-script-guide.md | 12:04 |
| gast0n | Hi, is the 'http://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-security' repo down or has this repo been migrated to archive.d.o? | 15:54 |
| gnarface | good question | 15:56 |
| gnarface | i think the latter but not sure | 15:56 |
| Xenguy | gast0n: The latter I believe | 16:10 |
| Xenguy | You might be well advised to dist-upgrade to Beowulf, I expect | 16:11 |
| gast0n | I just changed the repo to archive.d.o and 'apt update' finished without errors, I guess that's it. Was there a date for this change? | 16:12 |
| gnarface | seems like it's been a while | 16:13 |
| gnarface | like years | 16:13 |
| gast0n | I maintain that repo for kernel 4.9, which is the last one that supports my marvell ethernet network card, the newest kernels, the ethernet port does not work | 16:14 |
| gast0n | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | 16:14 |
| gnarface | i see | 16:15 |
| gnarface | well it's a noble cause anyway | 16:15 |
| rustyaxe | sounds like time to upgrade ethernet | 16:17 |
| Xenguy | gnarface: ASCII was archived a day or 2 ago AFAIK. | 16:17 |
| gnarface | oh really? | 16:17 |
| rustyaxe | gast0n: 100mbit? | 16:17 |
| gnarface | maybe i'm thinking of jessie | 16:17 |
| Xenguy | Probably | 16:17 |
| gast0n | rustyaxe: no, its gigabit | 16:17 |
| rustyaxe | out of tree driver im assuming? | 16:18 |
| gast0n | I got an intel, but I never found out why that marvell yukon onboard lost support. | 16:18 |
| rustyaxe | i mean i'd replace 1gbit card anyways, thats 2001 stuff | 16:18 |
| rustyaxe | we're in 2023 now | 16:19 |
| gast0n | yes, it's a 2003-04 motherboard, still working today :) | 16:21 |
| rustyaxe | "working" yes. cheaper to replace with something 20 years newer than power? Probably. | 16:22 |
| gast0n | yesyes, but I have to adapt with what I have. I live in the third world, a lot of taxes, inflation, new technology is not so accessible. | 16:25 |
| Xenguy | Good luck gast0n ! | 16:26 |
| * Xenguy has to hit the road for now ... | 16:26 | |
| Assassink786[m] | hi | 18:50 |
| gnarface | hi Assassink786[m] if you have questions just ask them | 18:55 |
| gnarface | it's a slow channel but someone will answer eventually | 18:56 |
| birds_swim | hello? anybody home? first time IRC user | 20:30 |
| n4dir | some are here, if you got a question, you can just ask it | 20:30 |
| birds_swim | I can't create forums account. I was marked as spam. | 20:33 |
| birds_swim | I do have a few questions. | 20:34 |
| birds_swim | Maybe I don't need a forums account? | 20:34 |
| birds_swim | I'll link to my post on Reddit. | 20:34 |
| birds_swim | https://www.reddit.com/r/devuan/comments/12y40hv/noob_here_questions_about_devuan/ | 20:34 |
| gnarface | birds_swim: possibly not, try asking here | 20:35 |
| birds_swim | Hello. | 20:35 |
| birds_swim | I just discovered there are other Linux systems out there that don't use systemd. I discovered Void and Artix and thought that runit was pretty cool, but I really love stable distros like Debian, and that's how I found Devuan. | 20:35 |
| birds_swim | Questions for the Devuan Community: | 20:35 |
| birds_swim | Does Devuan support Btrfs and Snapper/Timeshift? I'd say this is my biggest deal maker/breaker. | 20:35 |
| birds_swim | Can I use the ISO (4GB version) to install a runit-powered Devuan system? Also, I really like LXQt. | 20:35 |
| birds_swim | Can I still use /etc/hosts to block domains/achieve content filtering? I'm trying to install hblock. | 20:35 |
| gnarface | golinux: got someone having trouble making a forum account | 20:35 |
| birds_swim | I saw that Devuan supports some sort of "remastering" to create your own ISO. In your opinion, how does Devuan's way of creating your own ISO fare against other popular tools/methods in the Linux community (systemd or not)? Specifically, this is an ease-of-use question. I have yet to find a project that makes the process easy to create your own custom distro. If Devuan's way is doable without burying myself in 3 months of | 20:35 |
| birds_swim | documentation, then this would also be very appealing to me. | 20:35 |
| birds_swim | Is the "Banned Packages" a comprehensive list of software that won't run on Devuan, or just a list of incompatible software (for technical or political/philosophical reasons)? | 20:35 |
| birds_swim | Why does Devuan not use Calamares? Does it depend on systemd? | 20:35 |
| birds_swim | Thank you for your time. | 20:35 |
| n4dir | birds_swim: refractasnapshot | 20:35 |
| n4dir | to create a custom distro. | 20:36 |
| n4dir | i would not know if it works for all distros, sure the debian based ones i'd assume. | 20:36 |
| birds_swim | --> Why does Devuan not use Calamares? Does it depend on systemd? | 20:37 |
| gnarface | birds_swim: the banned packages list is systemd and anything it depends on that they could manage to fork or rebuild to not depend on it | 20:37 |
| gnarface | it is not political | 20:37 |
| birds_swim | Is there a FAQ I can read? | 20:37 |
| gnarface | it is also not comprehensive, it's only packages that were in debian | 20:37 |
| gnarface | well you can read the banned packages list: http://packages.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt | 20:38 |
| gnarface | hmm, there might be a faq on the forum, not sure | 20:38 |
| gnarface | or somewhere on here: https://www.devuan.org/ | 20:39 |
| gnarface | i though refracta tools were a pretty decently easy way to create a custom image. it's been a long time since i tried it but fsmithred has taken over maintenance of it now so it has probably improved | 20:40 |
| gnarface | btrfs, snapper, and timeshift should all work afaik, but haven't tested myself | 20:41 |
| gnarface | yes, you can use /etc/hosts still | 20:41 |
| gnarface | and i don't know if runit is in the installer yet but if it's not it is easy to add afterwards | 20:41 |
| gnarface | does that cover it? | 20:42 |
| n4dir | i remember i could choose runit with the installer. But you know how it is with "remembering" | 20:42 |
| n4dir | pretty sure | 20:42 |
| gnarface | i know openrc got added, i thought runit was going to follow but i don't know what the status was | 20:42 |
| gnarface | but you can easily install it after first boot | 20:42 |
| gnarface | so it's a small matter either way | 20:43 |
| birds_swim | Why did the Devuan Team feel like they needed to abandon Calamares and choose an alternative/re-use an older installer? Is there a blog post I can read about that decision process? To me, that choice fascinates me and I find it to be a bold move. | 20:43 |
| birds_swim | How hard would it've been to remake Calamares to Devuan's needs? | 20:44 |
| birds_swim | Also, | 20:44 |
| gnarface | a bold move to keep what works? | 20:44 |
| gnarface | i'm not sure about what calamares is, ask fsmithred about that too | 20:44 |
| n4dir | calamares sure is in the repo though | 20:45 |
| birds_swim | I'd like to point out that I think Artix supports different inits in their Calamares installer. So we do have an example of it working. Do the other Alt-Init Linuxes communicate/cooperate together? | 20:45 |
| gnarface | there are certainly one or two forks of devuan if that's what you mean | 20:46 |
| gnarface | and calamares is not in the banned packages list, it doesn't appear like anything would stop you from using it if you wanted | 20:46 |
| birds_swim | Calamares was created in 2015/2017 as a standardized, distro-agnostic installer for Linux distros. It has become the most popular choice among Linux distros to install their system from bootable media to a PC or VM. | 20:46 |
| gnarface | if i had to guess about the older installer, i would just assume it's because it's what we're all used to | 20:46 |
| birds_swim | The only distros that don't use it I think are Fedora (they use their Anaconda installer), Arch Linux, and Gentoo. | 20:47 |
| birds_swim | Oh and Slackware | 20:47 |
| n4dir | well, that are most of the big distros, no? | 20:47 |
| birds_swim | yeah, but all the rest use Calamares. | 20:48 |
| gnarface | birds_swim: there's a lot of linux distros, i think your perception of how many of them are using calamares might be somewhat overstated by whoever stands to make money from calamares | 20:48 |
| n4dir | i don't care much for the installer anyway, as long it somehow ends being on the harddrive | 20:49 |
| rustyaxe | yay more "lets make all the linux broken just the same way" crap? | 20:50 |
| n4dir | 5 minutes ago i never heard of calamares at all :-) | 20:50 |
| rustyaxe | same | 20:50 |
| rustyaxe | mostly because if it werent for devuan. i'd have long ago gone back to freebsd | 20:50 |
| rustyaxe | Sadly more freedesktop.org infection is happening and im debating gentooing it up | 20:51 |
| birds_swim | https://calamares.io | 20:51 |
| birds_swim | I think all the derivatives are rocking Calamares these days. | 20:51 |
| rustyaxe | yea ill pass. | 20:52 |
| birds_swim | Solus, Void, Artix, Endeavour OS, Manjaro, Linux Mint, KDE Neon, Arco Linux | 20:52 |
| rustyaxe | good for them? | 20:53 |
| brocashelm | salix/slackel have their own graphical installer called SLI which is simpler and quicker to work with than calamares | 20:58 |
| n4dir | the web also doesn't know Void would use it | 20:58 |
| birds_swim | What are the two forks of Devuan called? | 21:02 |
| n4dir | birds_swim: https://www.devuan.org/os/devuan-distros | 21:03 |
| n4dir | i wouldn't know if that list is up-to-date, all i know is that the website exists. Gotta sleep. bye | 21:03 |
| gnarface | i think the two i was thinking of were gnuinos and maemo leste | 21:05 |
| gnarface | they're both on the list | 21:05 |
| gnarface | as is refracta, which i wouldn't have even thought of despite how obvious it is | 21:05 |
| gnarface | way more here than i was expecting | 21:05 |
| birds_swim | Is it easier to build your own distro with Devuan or with Refracta? | 21:15 |
| rustyaxe | You first should ask yourself... do we really need more distros? :P | 21:16 |
| rustyaxe | Then -- "Do i want to maintain that?" | 21:16 |
| birds_swim | Okay, i used the wrong word | 21:16 |
| birds_swim | "Spin" or "remix" | 21:16 |
| birds_swim | might be more appropriate | 21:17 |
| rustyaxe | Im not trying to discourage you, just to show its a lot of work and not very rewarding | 21:17 |
| birds_swim | Take a look at this distro. This is my favorite one right now and my daily driver. I exclusively use this one these days. The "Builder Edition" is my favorite. | 21:18 |
| birds_swim | https://spirallinux.github.io/ | 21:18 |
| birds_swim | If there ever was a Devuan "spin" based on SpiralLinux, then I'd probably switch overnight. | 21:18 |
| rustyaxe | ive seen literally thousands of distros come and go | 21:19 |
| birds_swim | Yeah, but this one is different. This one is essentially vanilla Debian, but with Btrfs+Snapper, Zswap, and Debian's "post-install chores" out of the way. | 21:20 |
| rustyaxe | no idea what snapper is and btrfs doesnt really impress me. i dont really like storing my files in beta quality file systems lol | 21:22 |
| gnarface | that's kinda what refracta is for, it might have been worth encouraging them to try it | 21:37 |
| fsmithred | sorry I'm late. Simple instructions for refractasnapshot are: Open a root terminal, run 'refractasnapshot' take the first option from the menu, and do one or two other things that the screen tells you to do - (i.e. press q, press ENTER) | 21:58 |
| fsmithred | Philosphical point: everyone runs his or her own respin unless you never change anything from the initial install. | 22:03 |
| rustyaxe | 25 minutes into building firefox, we see it's build system is stupid and only runs 2 rust compilers at once when i have 40 vcpu's available to it.. Smh. | 22:04 |
| brocashelm | i like refracta's defaults better | 22:25 |
| brocashelm | while not being too overly "customized" | 22:25 |
| brocashelm | just a few things like no avahi, alsa instead of pulseaudio, tor launcher, firejail, magic sysrq keys, and xfce without metapackages | 22:26 |
| rustyaxe | pipewire can almost do a pretty good job replacing poopaudio. Only issue i run into is NoMachine server is too stupid to work with it | 22:27 |
| buZz | rustyaxe: even with alsa or oss emulation enabled in pipewire? | 22:28 |
| brocashelm | i have no need for anything beyond alsa, generally. i just can't get simplescreenrecorder or obs to work without pulseaudio/pipewire, that's all | 22:28 |
| brocashelm | how is sndio in linux? | 22:28 |
| buZz | a openbsd library? | 22:29 |
| brocashelm | i'm slowly gravitating towards bsd-based/bsd-like software as their philosophy is making more sense to me nowadays | 22:29 |
| brocashelm | yes | 22:29 |
| rustyaxe | buZz: No its too stupid about when it decides to scan for devices to do its pass through stuff (you cna send audio both ways mic/spkr from the other machine to the client) | 22:29 |
| buZz | i guess barely used | 22:29 |
| brocashelm | apt shwo sndiod | 22:29 |
| brocashelm | if that could be used in areas where alsa would fail, that would be much better imo than pulseaudio/pipewire/jack | 22:29 |
| buZz | i dont understand what you're asking | 22:30 |
| buZz | there's no lower level access than also | 22:30 |
| buZz | alsa* | 22:30 |
| buZz | unless you're asking if you can write device drivers | 22:30 |
| buZz | then , sure | 22:30 |
| brocashelm | i meant for issues like using simplescreenrecorder where alsa sound doesn't work | 22:30 |
| brocashelm | i haven't found a suitable workaround for that | 22:30 |
| buZz | i have no clue what your issue is with that program | 22:30 |
| buZz | does your alsa card support multiple streams? have you tried closing webbrowser before starting? | 22:31 |
| brocashelm | that i don't get sound on an alsa-only system (after recording)? | 22:31 |
| buZz | have you tried enabling dmix? | 22:31 |
| brocashelm | or that the sound is there, but very noisy | 22:31 |
| rustyaxe | Max Cpu Load: 87.35% Max Ram Usage: 64.8 Gb | 22:32 |
| brocashelm | closing other programs hasn't helped. if there is a way, probably some modprobe or config thing i'm overlooking... | 22:32 |
| rustyaxe | Hmm | 22:32 |
| buZz | brocashelm: i bet you're just using the alsa device while you're trying to use it in another program | 22:33 |
| buZz | which many soundcards dont support natively | 22:33 |
| buZz | hence, dmix (the alsa plugin) exists to mix multiple streams to one for such cards | 22:33 |
| brocashelm | don't think i've used dmix in the past. going to test that out | 22:34 |
| brocashelm | added it to my asound conf, but can't get sound now | 22:43 |
| brocashelm | https://alsa-project.org/wiki/Asoundrc#dmix | 22:43 |
| debdog | dmix is enabled by default since at least 15 years now. no need to explicetly configure it | 22:44 |
| buZz | ah :) | 22:46 |
| brocashelm | then, i'm stumped there | 22:51 |
| brocashelm | not an issue for me, because i don't really record stuff | 22:52 |
| brocashelm | everything else just works | 22:52 |
| brocashelm | that'd be one thing where i would have to use freedesktop/poettering "tools" to get clear sound out of | 22:52 |
| buZz | why not use OBS to record btw? | 23:11 |
| brocashelm | newer versions are kinda buggy | 23:15 |
| brocashelm | i also can't get sound out of obs on an alsa setup iirc | 23:15 |
| rustyaxe | sounds like a program i'd just not bother with lol | 23:40 |
| rustyaxe | id rather not ever deal with poopaudio again | 23:40 |
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