| Afdal | So, to downgrade... apt remove -> edit out backports line in sources.list -> update -> reinstall? | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| gnarface | nah it won't be that simple i don't think | 00:01 |
| Afdal | :/ | 00:01 |
| Afdal | What, then? | 00:01 |
| gnarface | you sure the computer will boot withhout those backports? | 00:01 |
| Afdal | yes, this is all qt6 stuff | 00:01 |
| n4dir | i'd do it in a chroot | 00:01 |
| Afdal | I'm not even using a Qt DE/WM | 00:01 |
| Afdal | The qt stuff is just for programs | 00:02 |
| gnarface | individually it should just as simple as "apt-get --allow-downgrades install package/release" | 00:02 |
| Afdal | oh, so that's a thing | 00:02 |
| gnarface | yea, there's just no guarantee the packages will support downgrading correctly | 00:02 |
| gnarface | it might be safer to just purge them and reinstall the old ones fresh | 00:02 |
| Afdal | I assume by that you mean some package leaving a config file for a newer version around | 00:03 |
| Afdal | that isn't compatible with an older version | 00:03 |
| gnarface | or, even easier, just purge them, do your upgrade, then reinstall the new versions so you don't have to download & install the same packages twice | 00:03 |
| Afdal | Actually these were all added from a compile script anyway | 00:04 |
| gnarface | oh? hmmm | 00:04 |
| Afdal | so I'll just purge them, edit out backports, and then run the script again | 00:04 |
| gnarface | is the script compatible with daedalus? | 00:05 |
| Afdal | Don't see why it wouldn't be | 00:05 |
| gnarface | probably a better idea to run it after the update then | 00:05 |
| gnarface | again, just trying to keep you from having to do a bunch of work twice | 00:07 |
| gnarface | so, the process would be: 1) purge backported packages, 2) upgrade to daedalus 3) install build dependencies 4) build package | 00:08 |
| Afdal | n-no | 00:08 |
| Afdal | I'm not upgrading to daedalus right now... | 00:09 |
| gnarface | oh | 00:09 |
| Afdal | >.> | 00:09 |
| gnarface | what are you trying to do then? | 00:09 |
| Afdal | compile this on chimaera | 00:09 |
| gnarface | for all i know it'll like the backported dependencies more | 00:09 |
| n4dir | and build which package? In daedalus thers is a higher verison of obs-studio | 00:09 |
| Afdal | I've still gotta remove these backports libraries, because they're broken on backports | 00:10 |
| _ds_ | Shouldn't be any need to purge backported packages as their version numbers are strictly lower than the originals – just upgrade | 00:10 |
| gnarface | _ds_: that hasn't always been the case in my experience | 00:10 |
| Afdal | I told you, this is a dependency problem with these two backports packages | 00:10 |
| Afdal | <Afdal> It seems that backports has v6.4.2-2~bpo11+1 of libqt6svg6 and v6.3.1-2~bpo11+1 of libqt6svg6-dev | 00:10 |
| _ds_ | If that isn't the case, it's a bug | 00:10 |
| Afdal | yeah, probably | 00:10 |
| Afdal | libqt6svg6-dev really wants v6.3.1-2~bpo11+1 of libqt6svg6 | 00:11 |
| gnarface | Afdal: what happens if you just "apt-get source obs-studio && dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc obs-studio" ...? | 00:11 |
| Afdal | what does that do <.< | 00:11 |
| gnarface | it should download the debian source package for obs-studio to the current directory, and then build its binary package also in the current directory | 00:12 |
| gnarface | assuming you already have all the build dependencies it should just work | 00:12 |
| Afdal | well I'd rather try to use this compile script they've provided first | 00:12 |
| gnarface | also, if you don't have all the build dependencies you should be able to get them by running "apt-get install build-essential && apt-get build-dep obs-studio" | 00:12 |
| gnarface | these are the built-in debian package automation tools, they're supposed to work, and they surprisingly often do | 00:13 |
| n4dir | one of the reasons to do such in a chroot is you don't have all kind of build-dependencies installed you will never need again. If i understood correct | 00:13 |
| gnarface | yea, that's not a bad idea, but i was trying to keep the process simple | 00:14 |
| _ds_ | Looks to me like libqt6-svg6-dev should be removed from the archive as it's only in chimaera-backports | 00:14 |
| Afdal | bah, seems like this is missing critical qt6 dependencies in chimaera anyway -.- | 00:14 |
| n4dir | sure. Only now he runs in the bpo problems, it might (i said might) be an idea | 00:14 |
| _ds_ | (you'd want qt6-svg-dev instead, I think, and that looks like a buggy backport in that it's clearly from unstable rather than testing) | 00:15 |
| gnarface | Afdal: well, n4dir has a point. it'd be safer to do this in a chroot either way. | 00:15 |
| gnarface | then after that you can just delete the chroot | 00:15 |
| Afdal | Looks like the qt6 libraries it needs are in backports and daedalus but not chimaera | 00:16 |
| Afdal | and since backports has that broken pair | 00:16 |
| Afdal | I'm gonna need daedalus to compile this | 00:16 |
| Afdal | at which point, why bother compiling... | 00:16 |
| gnarface | you know what you could do, you could run daedalus in a chroot just for this program, until daedalus is stable then you can upgrade the main system later | 00:17 |
| Afdal | Well eh, maybe I'll think about upgrading to daedalus later I suppose | 00:17 |
| gnarface | if this isn't for work, the smartest thing may just be to wait since that's the least hazard prone option | 00:17 |
| n4dir | gnarface knows this way better, but i think a chroot to compile is usually unstable. I might well remember wrong | 00:17 |
| Afdal | If I'm grabbing stuff from daedalus | 00:18 |
| Afdal | I don't see why I would bother compiling it | 00:18 |
| Afdal | rather than compiling it in a chroot, why not just run the daedalus package in a chroot | 00:18 |
| n4dir | most recommend against it, and strongly. So would i. But i guess i would just do it. | 00:18 |
| n4dir | i meant adding daedalus to sources.list, install it, comment daedalus from sources.list. Might go way south | 00:19 |
| gnarface | Afdal: i think you're grasping it better than you think you are. yes, you're right in the analysis that it's a lot of extra work to retain chimaera purely symbolically | 00:19 |
| gnarface | with a simpler program that has fewer dependencies it would not be this way | 00:20 |
| gnarface | on top of that, there's probably nothing obs-studio is really doing for you that you can't replicate with some fancy ffmpeg calls and some simple shell scripts | 00:21 |
| gnarface | (and ffmpeg typically takes less cpu too) | 00:22 |
| n4dir | gnarface: what would you expect when daedalus might become stable? not that exact, just very loose ? | 00:24 |
| Afdal | Sadly, that's not true | 00:24 |
| gnarface | i thought you were trying to solve a pressing issue or learn something fundamental about system maintenance, or both. if it's actually neither, the smartest move is to just wait a couple weeks. | 00:24 |
| Afdal | There's a critical functionally that bare ffmpeg scripts can't do on their own: per-program screen capture | 00:24 |
| Afdal | ffmpeg + x11grab is limited to a screen area and can't capture a specific window | 00:25 |
| gnarface | n4dir: i've got very little to go on other than guesses. if i was gambling on it i'd say something like 3 months after whenever debian releases bookworm | 00:25 |
| Afdal | I mean, if you know a way to do it... I'd love to know :D | 00:25 |
| n4dir | gnarface: ah, i see. thanks. -- Bedtime for me. bye. Afdal good luck, whichever decision you make | 00:26 |
| gnarface | Afdal: i would just get clever with the shell commands and wire the script up to find the proper window location on the fly and plug the values into the x11grab field | 00:27 |
| gnarface | should be doable | 00:27 |
| Afdal | well the problem with x11grab is that it only sees what your desktop sees | 00:27 |
| Afdal | it doesn't know how to look for the output of a given window/process | 00:27 |
| Afdal | I'm not sure what OBS Studio does to get around this (it does use ffmpeg as a dependency), but all the other simpler screen recording GUIs which are basically ffmpeg scripts haven't found a way around this limitation | 00:28 |
| gnarface | quick+dirty easy way would just be to hardcode the x11grab fields and set the window manager to place the given windows in static, known locations... are you trying to capture offscreen windows or something? | 00:28 |
| Afdal | I'd like to be able to jump around between windows while I'm recording something :) | 00:28 |
| Afdal | So I don't always have to have a specific window on my screen forever | 00:29 |
| Afdal | but yes, I've done what you describe before | 00:29 |
| Afdal | Unfortunately I only have one computer monitor -.- | 00:29 |
| gnarface | well, i don't know how obs-studio manages it, and i'm having a lot of trouble not typing obs-stupido | 00:30 |
| Afdal | :D | 00:30 |
| gnarface | i suspect it probably does some trickery with multiple muxed ffmpeg streams that i just don't know the equivalent ffmpeg syntax for | 00:31 |
| Afdal | Well it's able to record a window's output even when it's minimized | 00:31 |
| Afdal | so it's something to do with inserting itself as an intermediate between a program and its X11 drawing operation | 00:32 |
| gnarface | like, hypothetically maybe you can have one ffmpeg stream going directly into output, but it's nothing but a container that takes input from a second ffmpeg process, and you can start and stop the second ffmpeg process with different sources without having to stop the main output | 00:32 |
| gnarface | capturing from minimized windows seems like a separate trick from just switching sources on the fly | 00:33 |
| Afdal | hmm, maybe it acts as an X11-forwarded server, actually | 00:33 |
| gnarface | i was just thinking something like that, like xnest or something | 00:33 |
| Afdal | like the ssh feature | 00:33 |
| gnarface | yea | 00:33 |
| gnarface | seems possible | 00:33 |
| gnarface | might just be a different ffmpeg flag for that i don't know of off the top of my head | 00:34 |
| Afdal | No I don't think this is a feature of ffmpeg | 00:34 |
| Afdal | otherwise other stuff like SimpleScreenRecorder and CastAwesome would have this feature | 00:34 |
| Afdal | (those are basically just GUIs for ffmpeg commands) | 00:35 |
| gnarface | hmm, though google is saying obs-studio can capture backgrounded windows but not minimized ones | 00:35 |
| Afdal | lol uh | 00:35 |
| Afdal | hold on lemme make sure of this | 00:35 |
| gnarface | last post was 2020 though so maybe it's something new? | 00:36 |
| Afdal | oh, huh | 00:36 |
| Afdal | interesting | 00:36 |
| gnarface | hmm, looking a bit harder and i'm seeing multiple bug reports in 2021 and 2022 about losing minimized windows | 00:36 |
| Afdal | Guess the video capture freezes when a window is minimized | 00:37 |
| Afdal | it does work in background though | 00:37 |
| Afdal | I'll have to remember never to minimize something... | 00:37 |
| Afdal | well in that case, it might not be functioning on a level between X11 display | 00:38 |
| Afdal | it's probably communicating with X11 feeds directly | 00:38 |
| Afdal | might not be functioning on a level between program and X11 display* | 00:39 |
| Afdal | This does further support my X11-forwarding-like operation theory tho | 00:39 |
| Afdal | Well, maybe | 00:40 |
| Afdal | anyway this is getting rather off-topic :) | 00:40 |
| Afdal | Meanwhile there's a lot of on-topic chat in #devuan-offtopic lately >.> | 00:40 |
| gnarface | you know... you can ssh to the current machine | 00:42 |
| Afdal | Even without an ssh server running? | 00:42 |
| gnarface | uh, no. but if you run one i don't think there's anything stopping you from using x11-forwarding from and to the same desktop | 00:42 |
| Afdal | :v | 00:43 |
| gnarface | never tried it, but i know scp will work on local-only copies | 00:43 |
| gnarface | because i've done it by accident | 00:43 |
| Afdal | I mean, you can also just | 00:43 |
| Afdal | uh | 00:43 |
| Afdal | make dummy video devices | 00:43 |
| gnarface | but i also find myself wondering if there's a alternative to x11grab that's just not on the man page | 00:43 |
| Afdal | and send video to those | 00:44 |
| gnarface | is there a dummy video device in the kernel like snd-aloop but for video? | 00:44 |
| Afdal | in fact maybe that's what OBS Studio is doing... | 00:44 |
| Afdal | yes, it's called v4l2loopback | 00:44 |
| gnarface | oh, right! | 00:44 |
| gnarface | yea there's your ticket | 00:44 |
| Afdal | It's handy for doing stuff like faking webcams | 00:44 |
| gnarface | record with ffmpeg from the loopback device then you can swap source programs behind it without restarting ffmpeg! | 00:44 |
| Afdal | Still, this doesn't answer the question of how it's recording from background windows | 00:45 |
| gnarface | if the backgrounded video is outputting to v4l2loopback maybe v4l2loopback can't tell or doesn't even care whether the window is backgrounded or not | 00:45 |
| Afdal | I actually don't think v4l2loopback is a dependency of obs-studio though, although I often use both together | 00:46 |
| Afdal | I think it's using something else | 00:46 |
| gnarface | is gstreamer a dependency of obs-studio? i'm seeing something on stackexchange about using gst-launch for this | 00:46 |
| gnarface | https://superuser.com/questions/709866/ffmpeg-x11grab-a-single-window | 00:47 |
| Afdal | hmmmm | 00:47 |
| gnarface | looks like a prime suspect; says it works on out-of-foucs windows but not minimized ones | 00:47 |
| gnarface | that's our suspect profile right there | 00:47 |
| Afdal | I didn't realize gstreamer was a program itself | 00:48 |
| Afdal | rather than a library | 00:48 |
| Afdal | for other programs to use | 00:48 |
| gnarface | yea it's both | 00:48 |
| gnarface | lots of linux software is like that | 00:48 |
| Afdal | hmm, there's a gstreamer plugin for obs-studio though | 00:49 |
| Afdal | implying it's not what it's using by default | 00:49 |
| gnarface | hmm | 00:49 |
| Afdal | Still I might be able to use gstreamer to get around needing obs-studio :o | 00:49 |
| gnarface | and you're sure you weren't using it accidentally? | 00:49 |
| gnarface | yea, it's looking possible. i'm not clear on whether it's less work or not, but it's looking possible. | 00:49 |
| gnarface | i mean, i know there has to be SOME way to do this because Steam for linux even does it, just not very well | 00:50 |
| Afdal | actually hmm, it might be the case that this plugin is intended for Windows users | 00:50 |
| Afdal | while perhaps obs-studio for linux already uses gstreamer natively | 00:50 |
| gnarface | hang on... checking... | 00:50 |
| Afdal | Well, the easy way to answer this is to check the obs-studio dependency list | 00:51 |
| Afdal | I don't see gstreamer among its dependencies | 00:52 |
| gnarface | there's like 20 packages for obs-studio | 00:52 |
| gnarface | you have to check them all | 00:52 |
| gnarface | and there's no guarantee they're not somewhere inside one of those | 00:52 |
| Afdal | I'm looking at them all here: https://obsproject.com/wiki/build-instructions-for-linux | 00:53 |
| Afdal | no gstreamer | 00:53 |
| gnarface | ah | 00:53 |
| gnarface | yea you're right, i'm not seeing it on there | 00:54 |
| gnarface | i think it's still worth a try though | 00:54 |
| Afdal | There's a several xcb dependencies though | 00:54 |
| Afdal | maybe that magic happens in those? | 00:54 |
| gnarface | seems possible | 00:55 |
| Afdal | I kind of wonder how obs-studio functions in Wayland | 00:55 |
| Afdal | since Wayland is supposed to isolate windows from communicating with one another | 00:56 |
| Afdal | If I understand it right | 00:56 |
| gnarface | yes, it seems likely that there's some way to access this information from the compositing layer but it's all above my head | 00:57 |
| Guest33 | In Debian bullseye, the uswsusp package's hibernate functionality was replaced with "systemctl hibernate" (https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/683217). Is there an equivalent for Devuan? | 03:14 |
| gnarface | Guest33: yes you can just run the acpi script | 03:15 |
| gnarface | this one: /usr/sbin/pm-hibernate | 03:15 |
| gnarface | i think anyway | 03:15 |
| gnarface | maybe it has to be called by shutdown actually, not sure | 03:16 |
| gnarface | Guest33: ah, from the manpage: "These commands will usually be called by UPower or hald when triggered to do so by a program in a desktop session such as gnome-power-manager. Calling them from the command line is also possible, but it is not guaranteed that all programs in your desktop session keep working as expected" | 03:31 |
| Guest33 | Thank you, I'll give that a try. | 03:33 |
| fatal | what is the difference between devuan netinstall and server? | 09:11 |
| rrq | the package collections | 09:14 |
| rrq | probably the .disk/info file as well | 09:15 |
| fatal | i was thinking that devuan-server supports serial output by default but i got it working by changing boot parameters | 09:16 |
| fatal | so i guess the install will be pretty much the same in the end besides those packages i don't know about | 09:18 |
| rrq | yed it's the same installer; the difference is only in what's available off-line. | 09:20 |
| fatal | oh i get it | 09:20 |
| hacksenwerk | What name do I have to use for my usb sound card in /etc/asound.conf at defaults.pcm.card and defaults.ctl.card ? | 14:49 |
| hacksenwerk | I tried USB, USB-Audio, Device... I don't get this sh*t... | 14:50 |
| hacksenwerk | aplay -L gives me a huge list of devices | 14:50 |
| hacksenwerk | in /proc/asound/cards the card is called: 1 [Device ]: USB-Audio - USB Audio Device | 14:51 |
| hacksenwerk | So USB-Audio or Device must be the name, but it doesn't work. | 14:51 |
| hacksenwerk | restarting the alsa-utils service outputs errors and alsamixer isn't starting anymore, till I go back to use 0 or 1 in /etc/asound.conf and restart the service again. | 14:52 |
| hacksenwerk | Here's the output of aplay -L: https://paste.debian.net/plainh/403c76c6 | 14:56 |
| onefang | cat /proc/asound/cards | 14:56 |
| onefang | The names are the part between []. | 14:57 |
| hacksenwerk | /proc/asound/cards: https://paste.debian.net/plainh/362455bc | 14:58 |
| hacksenwerk | onefang: yeah I thought so too, but that doesn't work :( | 14:58 |
| hacksenwerk | or do I have to put that empty space there too? | 14:58 |
| hacksenwerk | 9 spaces lol | 14:59 |
| hacksenwerk | Device<9 spaces> | 14:59 |
| onefang | In my case one of them is "2 [ALC1220VBDT ]: USB-Audio - ALC1220-VB-DT" and I have - pcm.Mobo0 { | 15:00 |
| onefang | 15:00 | |
| onefang | type hw | 15:00 |
| onefang | 15:00 | |
| onefang | card ALC1220VBDT | 15:00 |
| onefang | 15:01 | |
| onefang | device 0 | 15:01 |
| onefang | 15:01 | |
| onefang | } | 15:01 |
| onefang | 15:01 | |
| onefang | Without all that excess whitespace caused by my copy paste method. lol | 15:01 |
| hacksenwerk | https://paste.debian.net/plainh/19fd28d5 | 15:02 |
| hacksenwerk | onefang: you said the name is the string in the brakets [] | 15:04 |
| hacksenwerk | can you paste your /etc/asound.conf please? | 15:04 |
| hacksenwerk | or user alsa config when you use that instead | 15:04 |
| onefang | My ~/.asoundrc is https://paste.debian.net/1281129/ | 15:08 |
| hacksenwerk | onefang: you always set that number alsa gives the devices too. | 15:09 |
| hacksenwerk | but that's dynamic | 15:09 |
| hacksenwerk | how does that work when the card are initialized in a different order, so these numbers changing? | 15:10 |
| onefang | The device number is the device on that particular sound thing. That's not dynamic. | 15:10 |
| Afdal | Ugh, what do you do when a repo has an expired key again | 15:10 |
| Afdal | Hate dealing with this -_- | 15:10 |
| hacksenwerk | onefang: ok | 15:10 |
| onefang | Note that for card ALC1220VBDT I'm using devices 0 through 3. | 15:11 |
| hacksenwerk | ok, but I still don't get what I have to put in my asound.conf... | 15:11 |
| hacksenwerk | these two lines I have should be enought right? but with the correct name... | 15:12 |
| onefang | Mine defines various pcm & their ctl devices. The default is the ALSA internal dmixer thing, which slaves to Mobo0. The others I use for JACK. | 15:13 |
| hacksenwerk | onefang: you use ALC1220VBDT in it what is the string in the brakets when you run cat /proc/asound/cards | 15:14 |
| hacksenwerk | mine should be Device but that doesn't work | 15:14 |
| onefang | 2 [ALC1220VBDT ]: USB-Audio - ALC1220-VB-DT | 15:14 |
| hacksenwerk | 1 [Device ]: USB-Audio - USB Audio Device | 15:15 |
| hacksenwerk | That's totally weird stuff... | 15:15 |
| hacksenwerk | No I do not wonder that people started to write something new to handle sound under linux... | 15:17 |
| onefang | Might be similar to my HDM! ones, the card is HDMI, but the device is one of 3, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11. cat /proc/asound/devices | 15:17 |
| onefang | So in that the bit in the square brackets is the number from in front of the name in that other command, a dash, then the device number. | 15:18 |
| hacksenwerk | cat /proc/asound/devices https://paste.debian.net/plainh/0bd12101 | 15:18 |
| rpgguest1676 | is ceres missing nvidia drivers 525.105.17-1 ? | 15:19 |
| hacksenwerk | very "helpful" that output... | 15:19 |
| onefang | Someone might have written a script to figure out all this shit for you. I don't know about it though. | 15:19 |
| rpgguest1676 | alsa must be studied to be mastered... | 15:19 |
| hacksenwerk | rpgguest1676: alsa must leave the past and join the present and be easy to use to not die. | 15:20 |
| rpgguest1676 | then use pulseaudio | 15:21 |
| onefang | Which is just a wrapper around ALSA. lol | 15:21 |
| rpgguest1676 | it's odd, debian shows 525 drivers, but devuan ceres seems to be missing it | 15:22 |
| rpgguest1676 | deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged ceres main contrib non-free afaik this should be pulling in the latest | 15:23 |
| rpgguest1676 | https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/policy-query.html?c=package&q=nvidia-driver&x=submit this shows 525 available ... | 15:25 |
| hacksenwerk | rpgguest1676: I uninstalled pulseaudio to use alsa... | 15:25 |
| rpgguest1676 | unfortunately firefox-esr can't see alsa microphone or loopback. but i live happier without PA, myself. | 15:26 |
| rpgguest1676 | alsa is fun times though. you can run loopback, you can add audio effects, all right in .asoundrc | 15:28 |
| stable_x | hacksenwerk: Is it possible, that you have several cards that use the same chipset / kernel module? Then you can use the 'index' option in your alsa.conf. | 15:28 |
| hacksenwerk | stable_x: I don't even know what that means... x.( | 15:29 |
| hacksenwerk | My head is burning. | 15:30 |
| hacksenwerk | I am at #alsa now | 15:32 |
| hacksenwerk | I don't even know if that #alsa is for ALSA... | 15:33 |
| hacksenwerk | No headline in that channel, no description, in /msg alis list alsa neither... | 15:33 |
| rpgguest1676 | what is your issue hacksenwerk ? do you have it pastebinned somewhere? | 15:34 |
| hacksenwerk | https://www.alsa-project.org/wiki/AlsaProject:Community_portal -> „There is currently no text in this page.“ lol they are funny people... | 15:35 |
| hacksenwerk | rpgguest1676: yes several | 15:35 |
| onefang | rpgguest1676 arrived after our pastes. | 15:35 |
| hacksenwerk | I posted everything in a well structured order in #alsa | 15:36 |
| hacksenwerk | I'll do a paste of that channel log | 15:36 |
| hacksenwerk | rpgguest1676: There you go: https://paste.debian.net/plainh/0091788a | 15:37 |
| hacksenwerk | Wait the paste site ignored one linebreak | 15:38 |
| hacksenwerk | Here, use this instead: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/036878e3/ | 15:38 |
| stable_x | hacksenwerk: to be more specific, the index option in combination with the card ID, like 'options snd-hda-intel id=HDMI index=2' | 15:39 |
| stable_x | run 'aplay -l | grep ^card' for the card ID (second column, right after 'card #:') | 15:40 |
| stable_x | another addition: with 'alsa.conf' I mean '/etc/modprobe.d/alsa.conf' | 15:41 |
| rpgguest1676 | the changing index number is related to the USB hotplug feature. | 15:41 |
| hacksenwerk | aplay -l | grep ^card gives me no output | 15:41 |
| hacksenwerk | oh wait | 15:42 |
| stable_x | w/o grep? | 15:42 |
| hacksenwerk | that's because the output is not in english | 15:42 |
| hacksenwerk | wait a sec pleas | 15:42 |
| hacksenwerk | *please | 15:42 |
| rpgguest1676 | to apply a consistent index number i think you need to edit /etc/modprobe.d/alsa-base.conf | 15:42 |
| stable_x | rpgguest1676: no matter how you call it... | 15:43 |
| stable_x | "it" = the .conf file under /etc/modprobe.d/ | 15:44 |
| hacksenwerk | stable_x: here's the output of aplay -l | grep ^Karte (Karte is german for card): https://paste.debian.net/hidden/d6979239/ | 15:44 |
| rpgguest1676 | something like this https://0x0.st/HqJa.txt | 15:44 |
| hacksenwerk | gosh I'm totally exhausted and overstrained | 15:46 |
| stable_x | IIRC, the .conf suffix is mandatory. I guess there is some 'include' line in modprobe.conf itsself. | 15:46 |
| hacksenwerk | alsa sucks | 15:46 |
| hacksenwerk | stable_x: Yeah yeah thank you for your efford but I can not follow anymore | 15:46 |
| rpgguest1676 | i think the root problem is how usb enumeration was designed, giving you differing orders. this can happen with usb-attached hard drives too | 15:47 |
| hacksenwerk | rpgguest1676: yes I know that this is the root problem, since yesterday | 15:47 |
| hacksenwerk | But alsa just doesn't care | 15:47 |
| hacksenwerk | I think the devs want their project to die. | 15:48 |
| rpgguest1676 | you can also create a udev rule to monitor changes in USB device connectivity asnd automatically adjust alsa's configuration accordingly. | 15:49 |
| rpgguest1676 | i rather wish computers had remained as difficult to use as in the 80s and 90s | 15:49 |
| hacksenwerk | I really have no problems at all with using alsa, i like the curses mixer (you can even control it with mouse), it is small, it has no Poettering inside... but this config shit? No, just no! | 15:49 |
| hacksenwerk | I will write a script that just change the number in my /etc/asound.conf to 0 or 1, whatever works after each boot. | 15:50 |
| rpgguest1676 | it might be easiest for you to make an asoundrc for each of the id's your usb soundcard may take, and just swap those out | 15:50 |
| rpgguest1676 | hehe, mind reding | 15:50 |
| rpgguest1676 | have a good day. don't take any unhealthy things in your arm | 15:51 |
| hacksenwerk | gosh but I need to change the alsa mixer specified in cmus settings to each time... | 15:53 |
| hacksenwerk | oh man | 15:53 |
| hacksenwerk | They: "You like our software?" Me: "No!" | 15:53 |
| hacksenwerk | Config files are fine but this hustle? Never! | 15:54 |
| hacksenwerk | Maybe alsa could get a part of systemd, I heard it needs similiar effort to config it. A good pair! >:) | 15:55 |
| hacksenwerk | alsad | 15:55 |
| hacksenwerk | Anyway, thank you very much onefang, stable_x and rpgguest1676 for your help! | 15:56 |
| hacksenwerk | But I give up on that. | 15:56 |
| hacksenwerk | alsa doesn't deserve so much of my precious lifetime. No program out there does. | 15:57 |
| hacksenwerk | alsa-project.org contains Advertisements, and integration of cloudflare and google... nice... I guess this speaks more than thousand ranted words. | 15:59 |
| onefang | Hmmm, I'm wondering if ALSA is getting confused that your cards name is "Device" when "device" is a keyword? Quote marks might help. | 16:11 |
| djph | awesome that the thing advertises itself as "Device" | 16:13 |
| onefang | I have one that says it's called "Set". lol | 16:13 |
| hacksenwerk | djph: Yeah it's the devices fault... sure | 16:13 |
| hacksenwerk | Sure that is not perfect but probably well know, so alsa should be able to handle that. | 16:14 |
| hacksenwerk | *known | 16:14 |
| hacksenwerk | But doesn't matter I just write my shell script. | 16:14 |
| djph | hacksenwerk: as onefang said, try quotes. But then again, I've never seen a soundcard identify itself as "device", so... | 16:14 |
| hacksenwerk | djph: *sigh* ok but that is the last try | 16:15 |
| djph | hacksenwerk: all I'm saying is that the USB card you're playing with isn't exactly making your life easy ... | 16:15 |
| hacksenwerk | Ok I tried quotes as " and as ' both do not work, alsa errors while restarting | 16:16 |
| hacksenwerk | djph: I understand that, but pulseaudio _can_ hanlde it. :( | 16:16 |
| hacksenwerk | There was also OSS I red, but it seems that this dead. | 16:17 |
| djph | Pulse is an intermediary mux that does things differently (possibly reliant on udev) | 16:17 |
| hacksenwerk | djph: maybe, I don't know because I do not understand what it or any other sound server does. I just don't want to have a program that stresses me more than it helps me. | 16:19 |
| hacksenwerk | I will stay at alsa, because there's no alternative, but I hate it now. | 16:20 |
| djph | I mean pulse just sits on top of alsa at the end of the day | 16:20 |
| hacksenwerk | djph: yeah poettering mentions something like that in an interview I had listen too years ago. | 16:21 |
| hacksenwerk | *to | 16:21 |
| hacksenwerk | I not a geek and I didn't understand many things he talked about, but what I understood there was, that "he knows better", "he does better", "he is better" and all of his stuff too of course. :) | 16:22 |
| onefang | So he's a Master better. | 16:23 |
| hacksenwerk | onefang: no! he's better than better! ;P | 16:23 |
| hacksenwerk | like: bitter | 16:24 |
| hacksenwerk | He often mentions that this program and that program were made so bad and said things like that dozen times so that even me as a non-geek got to the conclusion: he hates linux and want to build his own operating system. And as we all can see he's still wandering on that path. :) | 16:26 |
| hacksenwerk | A programm can be bad, but then make it better! Why replace it? | 16:26 |
| hacksenwerk | Exceptions are that it is so bloated and it is lost in its overcomplexity or something. | 16:27 |
| hacksenwerk | I went oft again. | 16:29 |
| hacksenwerk | #devuan-offtopic | 16:29 |
| latex | Hey guys. My friend is installing Devuan daedulus, but the GUI installer is being weird. Here is our partition scheme: https://ttm.sh/Bhi.png - but the installer doesn't list /dev/nvme0n1p1 as selectable for boot partition! https://ttm.sh/Bhb.png | 17:28 |
| latex | Any idea why? | 17:28 |
| fsmithred_ | latex, you can't use the efi partition as the /boot partition. They are separate things. Make a small linux partition for /boot unless you're doing efi stub booting which I can't help with. | 17:33 |
| latex | Huh weird. I'm running /boot on fat32 fine on my gentoo system | 17:35 |
| fsmithred_ | small = big enough to hold all your kernels and initramfs | 17:35 |
| fsmithred_ | I didn't know you could do that | 17:35 |
| latex | I always found this fat32+ext4 combo for /boot confusing, I just like to flash it all to fat32 | 17:35 |
| latex | fsmithred_: well it just werks | 17:36 |
| latex | What happens when you have this /boot=ext4 /boot/efi=fat32 combo? | 17:37 |
| latex | Where do kernels get stored? | 17:37 |
| fsmithred_ | I also didn't know we had any isos with a gui installer | 17:37 |
| latex | What actually gets stored in /boot? | 17:37 |
| fsmithred_ | kernel, initramfs, and grub directory | 17:37 |
| latex | My friend said he downloaded daedulus from somewhere, some live version | 17:37 |
| fsmithred_ | oh | 17:37 |
| latex | I found that pretty interesting because daedulus is so hidden from all the chimaera | 17:38 |
| fsmithred_ | that would be refractainstaller, and there is a gui version of that | 17:38 |
| latex | I prefer the TUI installer though | 17:38 |
| latex | So grub just reads the ext4 when it gets launched from EFI partition? | 17:38 |
| fsmithred_ | yeah, that sounds right | 17:39 |
| latex | I used to do efi stub booting because I didn't want to setup grub, but eventually I set up grub anyway | 17:39 |
| latex | So that's probably why I have everything in /boot directly | 17:39 |
| fsmithred_ | I know the live installer won't let you use efi as /boot, but if you install with the current partition scheme, you could probably move /boot to the efi partition after the install. | 17:40 |
| fsmithred_ | the regular installer might let you do it, but I don't know. | 17:40 |
| rpgguest7098 | rpgguest7098 17:39:50 | 17:40 |
| rpgguest7098 | nvidia proprietary drivers can be installed just with dpkg and wget from https://pkginfo.devuan.org/ | 17:40 |
| rpgguest7098 | you do need to grab a big set of dependencies though | 17:40 |
| rpgguest7098 | but it's not the catastrophe it used to be ++1 | 17:41 |
| latex | my friend is switching from fedora to devuan because as it turns out, Fedora emergency shell is broken and systemd likes to break the system when your /etc/fstab becomes invalid (e.g. reformatting secondary drives without the nofail option in fstab) | 17:43 |
| rpgguest7098 | the stuff the kids write is generally to be questioned | 17:43 |
| fsmithred_ | what?? | 17:43 |
| fsmithred_ | it reformats drives without being told to do it? | 17:44 |
| fsmithred_ | oh, nm, I misread it | 17:44 |
| djph | fsmithred_: hehe | 17:45 |
| latex | how big should efi partition be? | 17:45 |
| fsmithred_ | smallest I've done is 64MB | 17:46 |
| fsmithred_ | I recommend larger than that. Maybe 200. | 17:46 |
| fsmithred_ | I understand that some motherboards want it to be 500 | 17:46 |
| fsmithred_ | if you're going to move /boot into it, go at least 500 | 17:47 |
| latex | my EFI folder is only 140 KB | 17:47 |
| fsmithred_ | yeah, and you gave it 1GB | 17:47 |
| latex | I'll probably follow the installer's advise | 17:47 |
| fsmithred_ | which advice? | 17:47 |
| latex | /boot=ext4 /boot/efi=fat32 | 17:47 |
| fsmithred_ | oh, ok. Are you encrypting the root partition? | 17:48 |
| latex | nah | 17:48 |
| fsmithred_ | why separate /boot partition? | 17:48 |
| fsmithred_ | in case you fill up the drive? | 17:49 |
| latex | this is the fedora way | 17:49 |
| latex | and I think the installer will like that | 17:49 |
| fsmithred_ | yeah, it'll work fine like that | 17:49 |
| latex | you think it's overkill? | 17:49 |
| latex | or underkill? whatever would be the right term to describe separation of /boot and / | 17:50 |
| fsmithred_ | I think it's not necessary, but also not overkill | 17:50 |
| fsmithred_ | some days chocolate, some days vanilla | 17:50 |
| fsmithred_ | are you installing now? | 17:51 |
| latex | my friend is | 17:52 |
| fsmithred_ | ok, ping me if you have questions. | 17:53 |
| fsmithred_ | I'll be around but might be afk for short times | 17:53 |
| rpgguest7098 | btw devuan devs i just set up a new system with the dvd from usb. no problems. blessings to you. | 17:54 |
| rpgguest7098 | <foomp> - and i can get on with my work | 17:55 |
| fsmithred_ | :) | 17:55 |
| rpgguest7098 | and i've been werkling with linux since 1995 | 17:55 |
| rpgguest7098 | feels kind of bad to install those nvidia blobs, but i need to do some of the NN stuff | 17:56 |
| rpgguest7098 | if you're curious about that, i just installed manticore 13b, and asked it about that alsa configuration problem, and it gave a well informed - partically false - answer | 17:59 |
| rpgguest7098 | how is that possible in 10GB ram, i have no idea. it's astounding. | 17:59 |
| latex | fsmithred_: is it possible to change init system after install because tbh sysvinit is very confusing to me | 18:28 |
| latex | quick what is the default root password of the install? | 18:35 |
| latex | I mean CD image | 18:35 |
| latex | DVD, USB, idk | 18:35 |
| hacksenwerk | latex: toor | 18:36 |
| hacksenwerk | and default password for the user devuan is devuan | 18:36 |
| latex | okay it seems the GUI installer fails to install GRUB for EFI | 18:36 |
| fsmithred_ | toor | 18:38 |
| hacksenwerk | latex: and 1gb for boot is alot. I have always two kernels, they take 180mb of 500mb:) | 18:38 |
| fsmithred_ | yes, you can change to runit or openrc after the install. It's easy. | 18:39 |
| fsmithred_ | you clicked on "Install Bootloader"? | 18:40 |
| latex | why does the installer not come with grub-install | 18:42 |
| latex | lol | 18:42 |
| latex | fsmithred_: this GUI installer is pretty crazy, there are no steps | 18:43 |
| latex | It just linearly walks you through | 18:43 |
| hacksenwerk | Like automated install? | 18:43 |
| latex | no | 18:44 |
| fsmithred_ | https://www.devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/chimaera/img/live-gui/dl18.1.png | 18:44 |
| fsmithred_ | it should install grub if you choose "Install Bootloader" | 18:45 |
| fsmithred_ | you might have clicked on the "Continue" button. | 18:45 |
| fsmithred_ | normally it does install grub and sometimes twice. | 18:45 |
| fsmithred_ | what kind of steps do you want? You choose what partitions to use and it copies the live system to the hard drive. | 18:46 |
| latex | but how do I install bootloader from command line? | 18:48 |
| fsmithred_ | If you have one of the regular installer isos around, you can boot that and just install grub | 18:48 |
| fsmithred_ | still in live system? | 18:48 |
| latex | yeah | 18:48 |
| fsmithred_ | partitions are mounted at /target? | 18:48 |
| fsmithred_ | is the installer still running? | 18:49 |
| fsmithred_ | i.e. are /dev, /sys and /proc bind-mounted? | 18:49 |
| fsmithred_ | if so, 'chroot /target' | 18:49 |
| fsmithred_ | then 'grub-install && update-grub' | 18:50 |
| fsmithred_ | oh, you can also do it without chroot with the right grub-install options. | 18:50 |
| fsmithred_ | I have trouble remembering that, but I can remember how to chroot. | 18:51 |
| fsmithred_ | boot partition needs to be mounted to /target/boot and efi partition needs to be mounted to /target/boot/efi | 18:53 |
| latex | grub-install command is not available | 18:55 |
| latex | which package gives me grub-install? | 18:55 |
| fsmithred_ | what iso did you use? | 18:55 |
| fsmithred_ | oh | 18:55 |
| fsmithred_ | how did you become root? | 18:55 |
| fsmithred_ | su won't give you root's path, 'su -' will | 18:55 |
| fsmithred_ | or 'whereis grub-install' and use the full path | 18:55 |
| latex | also iirc the command is grub-install --target=x86_64-efi /dev/nvme0n1 --efi-directory=/mnt/boot/efi --boot-directory=/mnt/boot | 18:56 |
| latex | I'm root | 18:56 |
| fsmithred_ | echo $PATH | 18:56 |
| latex | oh weird | 18:56 |
| latex | I did su | 18:56 |
| fsmithred_ | to see if the sbins are included | 18:56 |
| latex | why is su - required? | 18:56 |
| fsmithred_ | yeah, they changed it a couple years ago when su got moved to a different package | 18:56 |
| latex | wut | 18:57 |
| fsmithred_ | my thoughts exactly | 18:57 |
| fsmithred_ | echo 'ALWAYS_SET_PATH yes' >> /etc/default/su | 18:57 |
| fsmithred_ | to revert the behavior | 18:57 |
| fsmithred_ | anyway, the grub-install command looks good if stuff is mounted at /mnt | 18:58 |
| rwp | Never run a plane "su". Always use "su -" to load the environment like a login shell. | 19:01 |
| rwp | (ugh) s/plane/plain/ su does not set path but su - loads the login environment which sets path. | 19:02 |
| latex | do I need to do grub-mkconfig?> | 19:02 |
| latex | and where should I output it? | 19:02 |
| rwp | I don't think I have ever run grub-mkconfig myself before. Ever. | 19:02 |
| latex | I always run grub-mkconfig myself | 19:02 |
| latex | but I run gentoo so | 19:02 |
| rwp | In the education system we call that "negative transference of learning". | 19:03 |
| latex | who should run grub-mkconfig then? | 19:03 |
| latex | what does that mean? | 19:03 |
| rwp | Negative transference of learning is when someone learns something one way on one system and then it has negative effects on another system. | 19:04 |
| rwp | Such as learning how to drive on the left hand side of the road in the UK or Australia then trying to drive on the right hand side of the road elsewhere. | 19:04 |
| rwp | I think "update-grub" updates the grub configuration. Pretty sure. I would need to scan through it to be sure. | 19:05 |
| latex | I need to do mount -t proc -t sysfs blah blah to get chroot oh so exhausting | 19:07 |
| latex | in order to run update-grub | 19:07 |
| latex | Or do you know how to do it without chroot? | 19:07 |
| rwp | I generally hate that many people require /proc and /sys and require it in chroots! Ugh. Such a pain! | 19:08 |
| rwp | Oh so we are doing a chroot install? I did not catch that when I entered the discussion here. Sorry. | 19:09 |
| latex | apparently grub werks | 19:10 |
| rwp | I might recommend using the debian-installer in rescue mode to have it do the chroot setup and install grub because that is easier there than doing the individual steps by hand. | 19:10 |
| latex | it booted into XFCE or some shit | 19:10 |
| rwp | Congratulations! You have succeeded in installing and booting. Good job! | 19:11 |
| latex | Well this installer is crap. I prefer the TUI one | 19:11 |
| latex | Except the chimaera TUI installer always fails when encrypting the drive and installing all optional packages | 19:12 |
| rwp | I usually use the netinst installer but also do debootstrap installs. Which installer did you use? | 19:12 |
| rwp | You are doing an encrypted installation? I always use the netinst iso in order to set those up. I haven't spent the time to learn the details of setting it up manually. | 19:13 |
| latex | the installer has an automated encryption thingy | 19:14 |
| latex | but it may or may not be broken in some way | 19:14 |
| latex | But that's chimaera | 19:14 |
| latex | I have a chimaera DVD | 19:14 |
| rwp | Remember that Daedulus is Testing right now, not yet even a release candidate yet, too early. Chimaera is Stable and documented. Daedulus is still being prepared. | 19:15 |
| rwp | It's fine to use Daedulus but it probably has some bugs to be worked out. More reliable is to install Chimaera and then upgrade to Testing if desired. | 19:16 |
| latex | daedulus has all the cool new features tho | 19:16 |
| latex | like GCC 12 wow! | 19:17 |
| latex | And MPD with openmpt wow! | 19:17 |
| rwp | That's the same reason there has never been a Sid/Ceres/Unstable installer. Instead the recipe is to install Stable and then upgrade. | 19:17 |
| latex | I indeed did that on my laptop | 19:17 |
| latex | chimaera DVD and then manually upgrade | 19:17 |
| latex | also apparently there's no DHCP | 19:18 |
| latex | or internet is borked in the installed system | 19:18 |
| rwp | https://www.devuan.org/os/install will link to the relevant documentation on upgrading on the various versions. | 19:18 |
| rwp | When you installed did you select a static IP assignment? Or a DHCP address assignment? | 19:18 |
| latex | ping is apparently missing setuid whatever that means | 19:18 |
| rwp | ping is a known breakage of the refracta installer, which rsync copies files without copying extended attributes. | 19:19 |
| hacksenwerk | latex: I used the netinstaller of chimaera too and also failed on encryption. | 19:19 |
| rwp | So that tells me it is likely you used the refracta installer to install. That's fine. Just this one issue that I know about. | 19:19 |
| hacksenwerk | on daedalus it works. | 19:19 |
| latex | how do I fix? | 19:19 |
| rwp | Use "setcap cap_net_raw+ep /bin/ping" as root to set the capability. (Or it needs to be setuid-root as traditionally set.) | 19:21 |
| latex | I don't like netinstallers that much because I adore having everything offline | 19:21 |
| hacksenwerk | latex: you can do a minimal installation with a netinstaller without connecting the computer ever to the internet at installation, I do it always that way. | 19:22 |
| rwp | Until the Debian repository became so very large I always maintained a local LAN mirror for use with the netinstaller. That was convenient and fast. But the upstream repository is very large now and I stopped doing it that way. | 19:22 |
| latex | how do I setup apt? | 19:23 |
| latex | it seems to be borked now | 19:23 |
| latex | a simple command would be nice but otherwise we'll just edit the config | 19:23 |
| rwp | What's the symptoms? | 19:23 |
| rwp | There are an infinite number of ways that anything might be broken. Listing out infinity is going to take too long. | 19:24 |
| latex | 404 not found | 19:25 |
| rwp | Hmm... Try "apt-get update" first (or "apt update" if you prefer apt to apt-get) | 19:25 |
| latex | at first it didn't work but apparently my friend says the output is different now | 19:26 |
| latex | Oh apparently it works now | 19:26 |
| rwp | So the index files (files named "Packages") contain the listing of what is available in the repositories. Those are large and instead of downloading them each and every time we are expected to update them once before doing installs to make sure they are updated. | 19:27 |
| rwp | Or to update them if we change the sources.list files that specify them. | 19:27 |
| rwp | Some other systems (Fedora) look at the age of those files and if they are older than a few hours then they update them assuming that a few hours must need an update. | 19:28 |
| latex | hacksenwerk: does the netinstaller come with gcc, g++, base-devel, and headers? | 19:31 |
| hacksenwerk | latex: ouf I don't know sorry ^^ | 19:41 |
| hacksenwerk | latex: maybe there's a file somewhere that lists all the packages that are included in the different isos | 19:43 |
| hacksenwerk | I think you could mount an usb or cd, where you wrote that iso on before and than check the /pool directory or something. I did this in the past but it's been a while ago. | 19:45 |
| hacksenwerk | Or just run a find . -name "*foobar*" on that mounted device | 19:45 |
| latex | is the netinstaller different from DVD installer? | 19:47 |
| hacksenwerk | latex: Do you use chimaera? | 19:47 |
| latex | I like having a comfy amount of packages on my DVD | 19:47 |
| latex | I use daedulus | 19:48 |
| latex | but I used chimaera installer on my laptop | 19:48 |
| latex | My friend used daedulus installer which is glitchy | 19:48 |
| hacksenwerk | latex: yes the dvd contains a lot more packages | 19:48 |
| hacksenwerk | I have a chimaera iso here and mounted it now | 19:48 |
| hacksenwerk | let me check for that packages | 19:48 |
| hacksenwerk | latex: gcc is there the rest not. With headers you mean something like linux-headers-6.1.0-9-amd64 ? | 19:53 |
| hacksenwerk | and base-devel... I couldn't even figure out where that is with the debian package search. | 19:54 |
| hacksenwerk | Is the name correct? | 19:54 |
| hacksenwerk | latex: you can search here for strings in package name, package descriptions, or names of files that come with a package: https://www.debian.org/distrib/packages.en.html | 19:56 |
| latex | I mean anything to rebuild the OS from source | 19:58 |
| latex | I like bootstrappability | 19:58 |
| latex | freebsd dvd comes with all the sources | 19:58 |
| latex | It's neat | 19:58 |
| hacksenwerk | latex: I see. I've never done this before. I just install the system basics with the curses installer and then run some shell scripts to configure and install more packages. | 20:01 |
| hacksenwerk | I remember when my digital minimalism starts that I even stripped down that basic installation to find out how minimal I can go and breaked the system that way several times x) | 20:03 |
| hacksenwerk | I onced had the idea of doing LFS but I never started learning it. | 20:04 |
| latex | guys why can I not install nicotine | 20:04 |
| latex | ]https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/package-query.html?c=package&q=nicotine=1.2.16+dfsg-1.1 | 20:04 |
| latex | it's right here but apt says no no | 20:04 |
| latex | that it does not existo\ | 20:05 |
| latex | I'm guessing it's in contrib and my current apt sources is inadequate? | 20:06 |
| latex | Where do I see on that webpage in which repo the package resides?\ | 20:06 |
| hacksenwerk | I guess you need to use the debain package search for that | 20:07 |
| hacksenwerk | There you have more filter | 20:07 |
| latex | actually it doesn't work | 20:08 |
| hacksenwerk | It seems that that package is only in buster: https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=nicotine&searchon=names&suite=all§ion=all | 20:08 |
| latex | apt search nicotine returns nothing | 20:08 |
| hacksenwerk | So it was dropped. | 20:08 |
| latex | wow why? | 20:08 |
| latex | This is a great piece of software | 20:09 |
| latex | you can get lots of music for free | 20:09 |
| latex | it's freedom | 20:09 |
| latex | it's the free spotify | 20:09 |
| hacksenwerk | :) | 20:09 |
| latex | I thought debian was well-known for having LOTS of packages | 20:09 |
| hacksenwerk | Look here: https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/nicotine | 20:10 |
| latex | fedora is lacking in packaging in several cases but this is sad | 20:10 |
| latex | what's the reason for removal? | 20:10 |
| hacksenwerk | It was dropped 2019 / 2020 already. | 20:10 |
| hacksenwerk | I don't know ask the maintainer. | 20:10 |
| hacksenwerk | I did that too because of some other package I like. | 20:11 |
| latex | is debian dying? | 20:11 |
| hacksenwerk | latex: But look: YOu can download a .deb dile directly from their website: https://nicotine-plus.org/doc/DOWNLOADS.html#gnulinux-bsd-solaris | 20:12 |
| latex | Gentoo is doing the same shenanigans, but instead of removing packages, gentoo maintainers like removing useful useflags like gtk2 and force gtk3 down your throat | 20:12 |
| hacksenwerk | latex: I doubt it xD. Debian is one of the main distros. | 20:12 |
| latex | gentoo has lost its charm | 20:12 |
| latex | useflags are basically useless now | 20:12 |
| rwp | It appears nicotine is more fallout from python 2 lossage. | 20:14 |
| rwp | Bug #885357: nicotine: Depends on unmaintained pygtk https://bugs.debian.org/885357 | 20:14 |
| hacksenwerk | In my case I was sad because of the removal of the package keylaunch from the repos. So I mailed the amintainer and he told me, that he didn't use that package anymore and is alos no longer an active debian developer. Reasons for dropping a package can be very different. | 20:14 |
| latex | rip | 20:15 |
| rwp | With the ejection of python 2 that pushed out pygtk which pushed out nicotine. | 20:15 |
| latex | gentoo suffers from outdated af packages sometimes | 20:15 |
| hacksenwerk | Gladly keylaunch has very little dependencies and only on very basic packages so I still can use it, by downloading the last version and installing it. ^^ | 20:16 |
| hacksenwerk | latex: did you try to install that .deb file for nicotine from that website? | 20:16 |
| hacksenwerk | latex: You can try to solve its dependencies manually. But I would suggest you to create a list of your installed packages before, so you can do a rollback if something breaks. | 20:17 |
| hacksenwerk | latex: You can create a list of your installed packages with: dpkg --get-selections > some_file.txt | 20:19 |
| hacksenwerk | For the rollback I use a script, because you need some more commands. | 20:19 |
| hacksenwerk | I always do this before I testing new packages, even if they are in the repositories. | 20:20 |
| fsmithred_ | apt install linux-headers-$(uname -r) build-essential | 20:36 |
| fsmithred_ | ^^^ latex | 20:37 |
| latex | yeah cool but I just wanna know whether the netinstaller has it | 20:37 |
| latex | so you just apt-cdrom it in | 20:37 |
| fsmithred_ | not sure if those are in netinstall iso | 20:38 |
| fsmithred_ | I just checked a chimaera netinstall iso and no kernel headers or build-essential | 20:40 |
| hacksenwerk | latex: I told you that it has not, at least chimaera netinstaller not, but daedalus will be the same. | 20:41 |
| fsmithred_ | netinstall just has enough for a base system | 20:42 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred_: yup. :) | 20:42 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred_: where do you get that _ from? :D | 20:43 |
| fsmithred_ | where do I get what? That info? I talk to the person who makes those isos. | 20:43 |
| fsmithred_ | oh | 20:44 |
| fsmithred_ | sorry, I didn't see the tail | 20:44 |
| fsmithred_ | brb | 20:44 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: :D | 20:45 |
| fsmithred | all better. hacksenwerk I get that from satellite internet that keeps cutting out and letting me log in when I'm still logged in here. | 20:45 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: Ah yeah right you mentioned that a while ago. | 20:46 |
| hacksenwerk | Is it that Starlink thing? | 20:46 |
| fsmithred | no, hughes.net | 20:47 |
| hacksenwerk | Ah ok. | 20:47 |
| hacksenwerk | latex: How is it going with nicotine? | 21:10 |
| hacksenwerk | Ah I see now that soulseek is Closed Source | 21:12 |
| hacksenwerk | I don't get it... what's the advantage over torrent? That soul seek uses no hash values? xP | 21:17 |
| latex | is devuan binary compatible with debian? | 22:15 |
| Afdal | Should be unless it has some kind of Poetteringware dependency | 22:15 |
| latex | where is tigervnc? | 22:19 |
| hacksenwerk | latex: both using the same package format: .deb | 22:19 |
| hacksenwerk | Devuan is a fork of Debian ;) | 22:19 |
| gnarface | latex: yes. most the packages are in fact the same ones. | 22:20 |
| gnarface | like literally the same ones, not even rebuilt | 22:20 |
| latex | but is there tigervnc? | 22:20 |
| hacksenwerk | Afdal: Poetteringware! xD | 22:20 |
| hacksenwerk | lmao | 22:20 |
| gnarface | latex: as far as i can tell, yes. btw you can search for packages at pkginfo.devuan.org | 22:20 |
| latex | I can't find tigervnc | 22:21 |
| gnarface | but the short version is, everything debian has is in there except these: http://packages.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt | 22:21 |
| gnarface | latex: it appears to be spread across several packages but i definitely see them. try this: apt-get update && apt-cache search ^tigervnc | 22:22 |
| gnarface | maybe something is wrong with your sources.list | 22:22 |
| gnarface | latex: if you're just trying to locate the client, i believe it's in the package "tigervnc-viewer" | 22:23 |
| hacksenwerk | Yeah I see with apt-cache search ^tigervnc 6 packages | 22:25 |
| hacksenwerk | on Daedalus | 22:25 |
| gnarface | pkginfo shows it present in every release except jessie | 22:26 |
| latex | where is x0vncserver? | 22:26 |
| gnarface | latex: which release are you on? unless it's jessie you should be seeing it | 22:26 |
| latex | daedulus as always | 22:26 |
| gnarface | you mean x11vnc server? it's in the package x11vnc | 22:27 |
| latex | I mean x0vncserver | 22:27 |
| latex | don't correct me I know what I'm saying | 22:27 |
| gnarface | i've never heard of that one, is it in debian even? | 22:27 |
| latex | x0vncserver is the superior vnc server from tigervnc that VNC's your active X display | 22:28 |
| latex | it's great | 22:28 |
| latex | a good teamviewer alternative | 22:28 |
| gnarface | ah, well if you can build it without systemd it should work | 22:28 |
| latex | tigervnc* works | 22:29 |
| latex | epic guys | 22:29 |
| latex | apt install tigervnc* | 22:29 |
| latex | Also one thing I don't really get about debian users is why they do the extra effort to type apt-get when apt works totally fine | 22:29 |
| gnarface | apt-get is older so it's just familiarity | 22:30 |
| gnarface | apt and apt-get don't have exactly all the same feature | 22:30 |
| gnarface | *features | 22:30 |
| gnarface | apt is kinda front-end for both apt-cache and apt-get | 22:31 |
| gnarface | actually i don't know if it's literally a front-end but it acts kinda like it should be | 22:32 |
| gnarface | but it came second, and that's the only real reason | 22:32 |
| rwp | All of apt-get, aptitude, apt use the same backend libraries and therefore are all compatible intermixing operations. | 22:32 |
| rwp | I like how apt-get works and therefore prefer it over the newer but slightly different apt. | 22:32 |
| rwp | It annoys me that every program has a slightly different set of verb words that sound similar but do slightly different things. | 22:33 |
| hacksenwerk | rwp: agree | 22:34 |
| hacksenwerk | And I don't like that some programs only use short options like -l instead of --list or something. | 22:35 |
| hacksenwerk | At least both should be possible | 22:35 |
| hacksenwerk | I think that came from mathematics, my old math teacher told us several times, that math people love to shortening everything. | 22:36 |
| rwp | In the history of computing the short options came first. Long options came later. But the style of long options vary. | 22:37 |
| rwp | X programs generally use one '-' to introduce an option and the option is either long or short they are all the same. But they don't usually have non-option arguments. | 22:38 |
| rwp | Originally GNU introduced long options using a '+' such as +list but then people complained that it did not follow convention. | 22:38 |
| rwp | So instead GNU changed long options to be introduced with a '-' just like other options. And then continued with "-something" resulting in "--something". | 22:39 |
| hacksenwerk | Now we have the same talk in two different channels xD -> #devuan-offtopic | 22:39 |
| hacksenwerk | My brain splits | 22:40 |
| rwp | Yes. This really should be in -offtopic. | 22:40 |
| hacksenwerk | Daedalus gets a lot of upgrades recently. Me as a stable user is not used to that anymore. :D | 22:54 |
| rwp | Daedalus is Testing and basically 10 days delay behind Unstable. | 22:56 |
| hacksenwerk | rwp: Yes I know. :) | 22:56 |
| hacksenwerk | But it is so different since I didn't use any testing for many years. | 22:57 |
| hacksenwerk | Each time apt tells me there are upgrades I think: Oh my god, some security nightmare is going on. xD | 22:58 |
| rwp | Nope. Not security related. Just the endless thrash of the daily changing rolling package release contour. | 23:00 |
| hacksenwerk | rwp: :) | 23:01 |
| hacksenwerk | When Daedalus become stable, my good old friend the peace of stable will come to my home again. | 23:02 |
| latex | Anyone know how to fix The repository blah blah provides only weak security information? | 23:20 |
| latex | It shows this for every repo | 23:20 |
| gnarface | you're seeing that on daedalus righ tnow? | 23:20 |
| gnarface | right now? | 23:20 |
| latex | yes | 23:21 |
| gnarface | i'm not seeing that happen here | 23:21 |
| gnarface | what's in your sources.list? | 23:21 |
| latex | https://ttm.sh/BhR.png | 23:23 |
| gnarface | uh | 23:23 |
| gnarface | no i'm not clicking on that | 23:23 |
| latex | bro | 23:23 |
| gnarface | just /msg it to me or use paste.debian.net | 23:23 |
| latex | literally https to png | 23:23 |
| latex | what is the issue | 23:23 |
| latex | are you gonna get virus by loading a PNG image? | 23:23 |
| gnarface | it's more about the tracking security hole created by dns | 23:24 |
| gnarface | look, you don't get paranoid like i am without a reason | 23:24 |
| latex | wdym | 23:24 |
| latex | anything wrong with ttm.sh? | 23:24 |
| gnarface | just never heard of it | 23:24 |
| latex | it's a file host | 23:24 |
| gnarface | i'm sure that is probably true but i have a policy of not clicking on domains i don't recognize, and it's not actually worth arguing about | 23:25 |
| latex | but okay I'll try paste.debian.net if you can give me an esay curl command to upload there | 23:25 |
| gnarface | you can really just /msg me the contents of that file, it's not a problem for me to wait while it trickles through flood protection, it's just 2 lines | 23:25 |
| gnarface | or at least, it'd better be just 2 lines, or that might be your actual issue | 23:25 |
| gnarface | so what's the actual goal here? is the goal here to get me to click on that link, or is the goal to get me to sanity check your sources.list? | 23:26 |
| latex | check your DMs | 23:28 |
| latex | did the messages arrive? | 23:28 |
| gnarface | alright, i don't see anything that would cause that error in there afaik, but i do see that you've enabled updates, security, and backports, and i'm not sure any of those are actually even live yet. if they're up but empty, that might be the issue. try commenting them out and running "apt-get update" again | 23:28 |
| gnarface | latex: yes, i was already typing this reply ^ | 23:28 |
| latex | same goes for -updates and -security? | 23:29 |
| gnarface | you won't need updates and security until after it goes to stable anyway, and IMO you probably shouldn't leave backports enabled while you're not explicitly using it (some may disagree that this is necessary) | 23:29 |
| gnarface | latex: yes, to be clear, comment out lines 3-5 and 8-10 | 23:31 |
| gnarface | then try it again | 23:31 |
| gnarface | after daedalus goes stable, just uncomment 2-4 and 8-9 | 23:32 |
| gnarface | sorry 3-4 and 8-9 i mean (that was a typo) | 23:32 |
| latex | help apt upgrade fucked up somethinmg | 23:33 |
| gnarface | show me the error, you can just /msg it to me again | 23:33 |
| gnarface | latex: that's not an apt error, that's a grub error | 23:34 |
| gnarface | and i'm not 100% sure how to fix this. you're using uefi not bios? | 23:35 |
| latex | but something decided to run the i386 variant | 23:35 |
| latex | yeah | 23:35 |
| latex | I did install grub outside the system | 23:35 |
| latex | in the live system I manually ran grub-install because the installer was glitchy | 23:35 |
| gnarface | hmmm | 23:35 |
| gnarface | might have something to do with booting from nvme, i recall there was some driver issue or something like that but i can't remember clearly how to fix it | 23:36 |
| gnarface | show that to fsmithred | 23:36 |
| gnarface | the "i386-pc" thing might be a red herring | 23:36 |
| latex | I'm on x86_64-efi | 23:37 |
| latex | It's not supposed to be i386-pc | 23:37 |
| gnarface | what does "dpkg -l |grep grub" say? | 23:37 |
| latex | I'm not running a 386 processor. It may be 386-compatible in some way but it has many more x86 extensions | 23:37 |
| latex | When doing apt upgrades, I got this ncurses TUI telling me something like "Do you want GRUB to be automatically installed? This is recommended" | 23:40 |
| latex | And I did yes and told it to install to the nvme drive, but it installs the wrong grub | 23:40 |
| latex | It installs the i386 one | 23:40 |
| latex | And even the BIOS one | 23:40 |
| latex | not the UEFI one | 23:40 |
| latex | What's the command to change these postinstall behaviours? | 23:41 |
| gnarface | hmm, i think it's over my head. some problem to do with efi and/or the nvme thing. i'm neither using neither of those here. the postinstall behaviors are just scripts in the package | 23:41 |
| gnarface | i wouldn't attack them yet, i'd ask fsmithred about it, he might have a better fix | 23:41 |
| latex | yeah I want to know. Does this make the system unbootable? | 23:41 |
| gnarface | i can't tell if it did or not. it might have, or it might have just uselessly installed grub to the first partition of your nvme drive | 23:42 |
| gnarface | what happens when you re-run grub-install or update-grub? | 23:43 |
| gnarface | (as root) | 23:43 |
| gnarface | the postinstall scripts do get extracted to the disk somewhere before they're run, and if the package install didn't complete they'll still be there. i forget where but you can find them and look at them for sure. i just don't recommend you start screwing with them until someone who has done this before weighs in. | 23:44 |
| latex | update-grub works | 23:44 |
| gnarface | shows x86_64 efi instead of i386-pc? | 23:44 |
| gnarface | or doesn't specify that part? | 23:45 |
| latex | it's not verbose enough | 23:45 |
| gnarface | ah, yea that's not gonna work. you can't use ubuntu or debian repos on devuan. | 23:46 |
| gnarface | well, you can, but not while telling them to give you devuan packages, because they don't have any, and if you ask for debian packages it'll work but might break your install elsewhere | 23:47 |
| gnarface | (and it bears mentioning that if you had some packages from outside devuan on this system already before this, it might be causing that grub error) | 23:48 |
| gnarface | if you need something that's only in a 3rd party repo for some other debian derivative, i recommend you run it in a chroot, a VM, or some other type of container, instead of on your main install, because it can break up your package dependency tree so bad you have to reinstall | 23:49 |
| gnarface | this here is the important part of that error: Error: could not find a distribution template for Devuan/daedalus ceres | 23:50 |
| _ds_ | $ ls /efi/EFI/debian | 23:52 |
| _ds_ | grubx64.efi | 23:52 |
| _ds_ | (well, that's what I have) | 23:53 |
| gnarface | latex: ^ can you check this on your install? | 23:53 |
| gnarface | _ds_: do you also use a nvme? | 23:53 |
| _ds_ | No – still using spinning rust here | 23:53 |
| gnarface | the ssd drives don't do anything different from the old ones, but nvme is somehow different at the kernel level and it breaks something i'm only vaguely aware of | 23:54 |
| gnarface | it's come up before and i know there's a fix just not clear on what | 23:54 |
| _ds_ | I vaguely recall something about “use the kernel in testing” | 23:54 |
| latex | /boot/efi is empty? | 23:55 |
| latex | wait idk whether it's mounted correctly | 23:55 |
| latex | I guess not | 23:55 |
| gnarface | could be related to the issue | 23:56 |
| gnarface | i'm still booting everything in BIOS mode though so i'm foggy on the fix for this | 23:56 |
| gnarface | i think it's just a package swap though, or something liek that | 23:56 |
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