| tacpilot | prolly been asked a million times already .. buuuut I just logged in ... do we have a release date target for Daedalus ? | 05:53 |
|---|---|---|
| golinux | When it's ready | 05:54 |
| tacpilot | always understand that to be true ... is there a wishful thinking pin I can put in my calendar :) | 05:55 |
| tacpilot | even if the granularity is on a month ? | 05:56 |
| onefang | Just wait for the next million to ask, then it's some time after that. Or maybe before. | 05:56 |
| golinux | No kidding . . . | 05:57 |
| tacpilot | and with millions ..just just shows how much the community hates that Debian climbed in bed with system d | 06:00 |
| tacpilot | 198 in this channel alone .. all protesting and chanting bring back systemd .. oh well .. been patiently waiting for bookworm to drop but have no idea the lag time for devuan .. fingers X'd it wont take too long .. | 06:06 |
| tacpilot | was forced to hodge-podge my current system for compat reasons which has introduced some quirks .. wouldnt otherwise be so on the edge of my seat looking for the next release | 06:08 |
| golinux | Please take you soliloquy to devuan-offtopic . . . | 06:10 |
| golinux | This is a technical support channel . . . If you have a technical question, please ask. | 06:11 |
| tacpilot | tnx devs for their hard work .. tips hat .. shows self to door .. cheers all.. | 06:13 |
| fluffywolf | I have heard daedalus is installable and very usable, but I haven't tried it myself yet. | 06:13 |
| brocashelm | been using daedalus since february IIRC; switched from ceres | 06:15 |
| brocashelm | hardly any issues i've come across since then. it was just a patience thing for it to stabilize | 06:15 |
| brocashelm | originally installed as beowulf, then moved my way up... | 06:16 |
| brocashelm | i suppose all we're waiting for is /etc/os-release to change from daedalus/ceres to daedalus? | 06:18 |
| brocashelm | already went and did that myself, anyhow... | 06:19 |
| gnarface | daedalus is working fine here as well, on a desktop i merged from ceres around the same time as brocashelm, i think, as well as two arm sbc boards (one upgraded from chimaera, one freshly debootstrapped as daedalus) | 06:20 |
| gnarface | i've had some minor issues with some games in Steam, but they are the types of issues that have come and gone over the past years unrelated to current distro so i don't have any particular reason to think they're daedalus' fault (some of the same issues have persisted since beowulf) | 06:22 |
| grayrock | the steam games i've tried in daedalus haven't had any more problems than usual. they work pretty well in fact. | 06:36 |
| brocashelm | what's perplexing is there are only i386 builds of it to this day | 06:39 |
| brocashelm | wait, i guess it's now a transitional package for steam-installer? | 06:40 |
| brocashelm | it's been a while since i last used steam | 06:41 |
| grayrock | i still just do: dpkg --add-architecture i386 && apt update && apt upgrade && apt install steam | 06:46 |
| grayrock | works every time. | 06:46 |
| gnarface | yea the game catalog is a mix so you usually need both architectures anyway | 06:48 |
| gnarface | lots of windows programs themselves use both architectures indiscriminately, it's nowhere near as organized as the open source ecosystem | 06:50 |
| gnarface | microsoft has set absolutely no expectation there will be 64-bit versions of everything so you frequently have 64-bit games unabashedly relying on 32-bit apis | 06:50 |
| grayrock | proton works surprisingly well. i just set it to use proton-experimental and forget about it. | 06:51 |
| gnarface | so i guess for whatever reason, Steam decided to preserve this misbehavior on linux, maybe to make the windows people feel at home | 06:51 |
| gnarface | once again i've kited us offtopic though, sorry | 06:51 |
| grayrock | heh. | 06:52 |
| gnarface | if anyone needs any daedalus-specific fixes for Steam or Valve hardware, i have a few in my head though, so let me know | 06:52 |
| gnarface | well, devuan specific really | 06:52 |
| gnarface | (there are a couple things that expect systemd or pulseaudio that take some clever tricks to work around) | 06:52 |
| gnarface | at least you usually don't have to go deleting .so files anymore | 06:54 |
| gnarface | usually | 06:54 |
| grayrock | i'll report that the radeon rx 6650-xt gpu works with with daedalus. and the asrock b650 pg lightning am5 motherboard. | 06:55 |
| grayrock | question: is kvm no longer in the devuan repo? | 07:02 |
| gnarface | you probably mean qemu | 07:03 |
| grayrock | no, qemu is there, but virtinstaller used to install both as dependencies. now it installs qemu and something else. | 07:04 |
| grayrock | i mean virtmanager | 07:04 |
| brocashelm | i installed virtualbox from ceres; it's the only popular vm client that's worked for me | 07:06 |
| grayrock | virtualbox is ok, but qemu-kvm is just the cat's [redacted] | 07:09 |
| gnarface | grayrock: kvm is still there if you use "-enable-kvm" on the command-line. they just removed the package "qemu-kvm" for whatever reason. | 08:01 |
| gnarface | grayrock: i don't use virtmanager, i just run it from the command-line. | 08:01 |
| gnarface | you may have to debug virtmanager's command-line options separately | 08:02 |
| gnarface | qemu-system-x86 is marked as "Replaces: qemu-kvm" here | 08:04 |
| gnarface | also, "Provides: qemu-kvm, qemu-system-i386, qemu-system-x86-64" | 08:04 |
| gnarface | i'd recommend getting it running from a bare command line then debug virtmanager second | 08:05 |
| grayrock | gnarface: thank you very very much for finding that out. i really appreciate it. | 08:05 |
| gnarface | np | 08:06 |
| grayrock | yeh, that seems like the best way to do it now. i'll figure something out. | 08:06 |
| gnarface | you're using a amd64 machine? | 08:09 |
| grayrock | yes. | 08:10 |
| gnarface | qemu-system-x86_64 -enable-kvm -cpu host -m 2G -boot c -drive file=~/some_disk_file.img,if=virtio,index=0,media=disk,format=qcow2 -rtc base=localtime,clock=host -object rng-random,id=rngid0,filename=/dev/random -vga virtio -nic none | 08:11 |
| gnarface | this is the base i'm working with | 08:11 |
| gnarface | not sure it's perfect yet but it's functional | 08:11 |
| * grayrock copies and pastes | 08:12 | |
| gnarface | the .img file there has to be created first | 08:12 |
| gnarface | i made it with qemu-img | 08:12 |
| gnarface | (check the man page) | 08:12 |
| gnarface | i think you can in theory just feed it any disk image if you change the mount options slightly | 08:13 |
| grayrock | awesome. | 08:13 |
| gnarface | the primary feature i liked about qcow2 is just that it can "grow" on the fly | 08:14 |
| gnarface | you can set a max value but keep it from taking up that space until it needs it | 08:14 |
| gnarface | it's probably slow though by comparison to a raw image | 08:17 |
| gnarface | or a actual disk partition | 08:17 |
| gnarface | (which you could use instead if you wanted) | 08:18 |
| grayrock | it's been a whgile for me so i'll have to relearn it. i really only used virt-manager because it installed all the dependencies i'd have had to do by hand. pure laziness. | 08:18 |
| grayrock | imma turn in. thanks again, that above and beyond. | 08:19 |
| grayrock | you oughta write that up and post it somewhere, btw. | 08:20 |
| grayrock | nite | 08:20 |
| hacksenwerk | Hi. A user in #devuan-arm told me that devuan pushes in packages that are not really necessary sometimes and he gave me one example with the package networkmanager: https://paste.debian.net/plain/1282734 I don't know if that's true and I donÄt care about networkmanager anyway, but I asked him to report thatand he denied, so I do that now. | 14:18 |
| fsmithred | hacksenwerk, try 'apt show network-manager' in debian and in devuan to comare the Depends and the Recommends. What you posted doesn't prove anything because we don't know what packages were already installed on the Debian system they used. | 14:23 |
| fsmithred | compare | 14:23 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: Yes I said to him something like this. | 14:24 |
| hacksenwerk | Also, that it also could be that there are additional packages needed on devuan to replace systemd dependencies | 14:25 |
| hacksenwerk | And hes not in this channel here, so... | 14:25 |
| fsmithred | or look at this list: https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/network-manager | 14:26 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: I forwarded it to him. | 14:27 |
| hacksenwerk | I also told hm to deny apt installin grecommends | 14:28 |
| fsmithred | yeah,, that can be helpful to reduce bloat | 14:28 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: yup. but allow recommends important | 14:28 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: He said you are wrong. | 14:29 |
| fsmithred | wrong about what? | 14:29 |
| hacksenwerk | Ok I stop that game, that's ridicoulus, if he really has to say something he can come here hisself | 14:29 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: he's here -> #devuan-arm | 14:30 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: Ok now I'm sure he's a troll ;) | 14:31 |
| fsmithred | I think your initial assessment was correct - I see a lot of elogind stuff in the devuan output. | 14:31 |
| fsmithred | so yeah, it's replacing stuff from systemd that he already has installed in debian. | 14:32 |
| fsmithred | and maybe second assessment is right, too. i.e. troll. I'm not interested enough to argue with him.' | 14:32 |
| hacksenwerk | I don't know, I don't use that package anyway, I was just curious if this is an issue or not. | 14:32 |
| fsmithred | probably not. We're not in the habit of adding a lot of dependencies. | 14:33 |
| fsmithred | I have to go. bbl. | 14:34 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: cya :) | 14:34 |
| Kitty_ | do we have any indication on a release date for Daedalus ? | 16:20 |
| djph | Kitty: as far as I'm aware, it's still "when it's ready" | 16:22 |
| guilherm1 | Hi! I must know: is there something like https://snapshot.debian.org/ for Devuan? I once had a big problem with my Debian installation, and managed to solve it by downgrading some packages. I did it through Debian Snapshot. | 16:23 |
| djph | least there's nothing new in the mailing list today (or I'm reading the wrong ML :D) | 16:23 |
| buZz | guilherm1: 99% of devuan packages are 1:1 debian packages | 16:23 |
| buZz | so you can totally mess your system up with snapshot.debian as-is | 16:23 |
| buZz | i'd recommend never ever using that :D | 16:23 |
| buZz | better to fix underlying issue then to introduce mixed packages, -always- | 16:24 |
| guilherm1 | buZz: nice! But it'd be nice if Devuan mantained its own Devuan Snapshot, even if its version contains the 1% of different packages | 16:24 |
| buZz | well, devuan does have package servers | 16:25 |
| buZz | which do have 'all the versions' of packages on it | 16:25 |
| buZz | snapshot itself doesnt really add anything | 16:25 |
| guilherm1 | buZz: I had to do it because of a bug in some packages. Unfortunately, the bug is still unsolved, even in the new Debian stable/Bookworm | 16:25 |
| buZz | beside 'move pkg to have a datestamp' | 16:25 |
| buZz | guilherm1: what bug? | 16:25 |
| buZz | link to the issue? | 16:26 |
| guilherm1 | buZz: Xorg broke in my setup. It has something to do with my hybrid GPU. I don't know the details, but I'm talking to some friends that have more knowledge than me to find out more details | 16:27 |
| buZz | bumblebee works pretty rocksolid since day1 from all i've seen | 16:27 |
| buZz | i highly recommend NEVER EVER 'take pkg from old distro' just to compensate for not fixing a bug | 16:28 |
| guilherm1 | I didn't take from old distro. I was using Debian testing and took it from an older version still in testing. But I know, it isn't the best solution, and I'm still looking for a better way to solve it | 16:29 |
| guilherm1 | As soon as as talk with my friends that know the bug better than me, I'll come here to discuss it further, if you wish | 16:30 |
| buZz | nah i dont honestly care, i just highly recommend never ever ever doing that | 16:34 |
| buZz | but i also dont recommend running testing unless you are -testing- | 16:34 |
| buZz | its not a 'my friends said i should do this' distro ;) | 16:34 |
| djph | testing (daedalus) has been quite nice (I'm glad I pulled the trigger on it for the daily driver ... didn't run into any trouble, except with pulse [no surprises there]) | 16:35 |
| buZz | hehe, honestly i'm having pulse issues since moving to chimaera :P | 16:35 |
| guilherm1 | I'm just wondering why I'm still having this issue in debian stable :-( | 16:35 |
| buZz | cant find the attention to fix it | 16:36 |
| guilherm1 | buZz: about pulse issues, I understand. As we move to testing, we must know that some issues may occur | 16:36 |
| buZz | guilherm1: the issue is that pulseaudio was always demented and we're finally moving away from it | 16:37 |
| guilherm1 | buZz: now I'll try to find such devuan mirrors that contain all versions of packages, as you said | 16:37 |
| buZz | what about https://pkginfo.devuan.org/ ? | 16:38 |
| buZz | there is no 'all packages' because most are transparantly grabbed from debian | 16:38 |
| onefang | https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/mirror_list.txt to pick package mirrors. | 16:38 |
| djph | buZz: I mean, it was also b0rken in chimaera. | 16:38 |
| buZz | right | 16:39 |
| djph | well, "broken". More just "annoying, but ever-so-slightly less annoying than having to find and kill whatever's locking alsa" | 16:39 |
| guilherm1 | buZz: pkginfo.devuan.org shows only the packaged versions that were "stabilized" (they were in stable devuan versions). Devuan Snapshot shows all the compiled versions, even when in Debian Sid/Testing | 16:40 |
| guilherm1 | package versions* | 16:40 |
| guilherm1 | Debian Snapshot* | 16:40 |
| guilherm1 | sorry for the typos | 16:40 |
| ted-ious | Between releases, the Technical Committee resolved that Debian "bookworm" should support only the merged-usr root filesystem layout, dropping support for the non-merged-usr layout. | 23:10 |
| ted-ious | For systems installed as buster or bullseye there will be no changes to the filesystem; however, systems using the older layout will be converted during the upgrade. | 23:11 |
| ted-ious | Is daedalus going to be like that too? | 23:11 |
| fsmithred | not like that on my daedalus | 23:12 |
| rwp | ted-ious, I am not authoritative but my understanding is that in the future Devuan will follow Debian on this. But it hasn't happened yet. | 23:13 |
| rwp | Basically no one likes it but it there is only so much fork work that can be done and so compromises must be made. | 23:13 |
| ted-ious | I guess debian doesn't care about users anymore. | 23:14 |
| ted-ious | Hence systemd. | 23:14 |
| rwp | Pretty much! | 23:14 |
| fsmithred | also not like that on the daedalus live-iso I just built. | 23:15 |
| fsmithred | and as I recall, the installer still asks you in expert mode if you want that or not. | 23:15 |
| fsmithred | last tested 5/27 installer isos | 23:16 |
| fsmithred | but yeah, it's the future | 23:16 |
| rwp | There are several fundamental tools like debootstrap and netinst ISOs which are shared but which have different settings between Debian and Devuan. | 23:16 |
| rwp | I am pretty sure that if I debootstrap with Debian and with Devuan that the default results are diverged between them for UsrMerge and a few of the other contentious things. | 23:17 |
| fsmithred | yeah, that sounds right | 23:17 |
| brocashelm | usrmerge and usr-is-merged are permabanned by apt for me | 23:18 |
| brocashelm | daedalus is otherwise running smoothly | 23:18 |
| rwp | GNU/Linux is a collection of many projects. My current worst problem is the virt-viewer part of virt-manager libvirt does not capture mouse focus on right and bottom allowing the mouse to exit the VM and lose focus making playing games in a VM impractically tedious. | 23:20 |
| rwp | Last good working version was the Stretch version of libvirt. Sigh. I need to dig into what's the actual bug that was introduced there. | 23:21 |
| debdog | back to Stretch, that's quite a stretch | 23:25 |
| brocashelm | i didn't have a good experience with ascii initially | 23:28 |
| brocashelm | beowulf was much better | 23:28 |
| rwp | Of course Stretch==ASCII but Stretch can be run without systemd so it isn't until the problems of Buster that Beowulf became the absolute needed solution. | 23:40 |
| ted-ious | Is it no longer possible to modify a debian system to run without systemd? | 23:41 |
| ted-ious | It's been a few versions since I did that. | 23:42 |
| rwp | ted-ious, It depends upon what packages you want installed. If it is one of these https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt then no it is not possible on Debian. But if you don't need any of those then it is possible. | 23:44 |
| rwp | For example libvirt on Debian hard requires systemd. Devuan forked the libvirt package and builds it without that dependency. | 23:46 |
| rwp | If you are not running libvirt then it does not matter to you either way. | 23:46 |
| ted-ious | So debian intentionally modified libvirt to make it less compatible? | 23:48 |
| rwp | Several Debian Developers have been working hard to hard require systemd in every package not just libvirt. | 23:49 |
| brocashelm | systemd: it will get worse as of trixie | 23:53 |
| brocashelm | closer to arch levels | 23:54 |
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